Wealth 85 richest equals wealth 3.5 billion poorest.

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Before I answer anything, WHAT? When did I say I'm a father? o.O

No need to edit in more question marks.

I must have misunderstood one of your rambling hypothetical discussions in the homosexuality thread about shielding your children from corruption. The multiple posts where your fear of 1% chance of follow up questions, ages, etc. must have just made me assume you did.

Doesn't really change anything at all about my points, so please answer something with an actual, you know, rational response.
 
No need to edit in more question marks.

I must have misunderstood one of your rambling hypothetical discussions in the homosexuality thread about shielding your children from corruption. The multiple posts where your fear of 1% chance of follow up questions, ages, etc. must have just made me assume you did.

Doesn't really change anything at all about my points, so please answer something with an actual, you know, rational response.
You guys sure do misunderstand and assume a lot...

My answers to you are similar to my latest reply to @niky
 
What if people grow the wood in their yard/house?
They must have STOLEN THE SEEDS FROM THE PEOPLE!

Imagine what would happen if someone used his state-provided bucket to collect and store rainwater that falls on his land in order to minimise his use of public water - the sort of thing us evil capitalists get up to so we're not using expensive, clean drinking water resources for things like washing cars and watering plants - when others in areas with less rainfall do without. He'd be in a Gulag quicker than you could say "A man who puts his head above the parapet is the first to be shot in the face".
So every time someone breaks the no-murder law, it's not the human's fault. Just the system's. Awesome.

So you're anti abortion. Who would've thought :)
You're literally not even trying now. Are you trolling us?
 
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Oh and btw, true doctors, treat the sick even without pay. Isn't that a part of their creed?

Not even slightly.

It's pretty tough to be a good doctor if you're starving and living in a cardboard box.

Otherwise this is sounding an awful lot like the preamble to a True Scotsman argument...
 
They must have STOLEN THE SEEDS FROM THE PEOPLE!

Imagine what would happen if someone used his state-provided bucket to collect and store rainwater that falls on his land in order to minimise his use of public water - the sort of thing us evil capitalists get up to so we're not using expensive, clean drinking water resources for things like washing cars and watering plants - when others in areas with less rainfall do without. He'd be in a Gulag quicker than you could say "A man who puts his head above the parapet is the first to be shot in the face".You're literally not even trying now. Are you trolling us?
The evil capitalist part made me laugh.

No I'm not trolling. With those responses yes, because I think what you said was ridiculous and I was speechless. I didn't know what to say, honestly. Although, you could explain how the murder thing isn't a flaw in the system. I'd appreciate that.


It's pretty tough to be a good doctor if you're starving and living in a cardboard box.
Did you miss the 100 posts where I said you'd get basic needs for free?
 
The evil capitalist part made me laugh.

No I'm not trolling. With those responses yes, because I think what you said was ridiculous and I was speechless.
I don't know what part of what post(s) you're talking about, because you've just smooshed everything up. The rainfall/gulag part? That'll be a demonstration of how one of your resources can be distributed unequally because the weather is like that and how an individual through sheer fortune alone can acquire more of a social resource than his neighbours - while being less of a burden on your own system.
Although, you could explain how the murder thing isn't a flaw in the system. I'd appreciate that.
The fact that "murder" (the offence) exists explains how it's not a flaw in the system. It'd be a flaw in the system if you could kill people freely.
 
The fact that "murder" (the offence) exists explains how it's not a flaw in the system. It'd be a flaw in the system if you could kill people freely.
..But the system failed to protect people from murder (which is the reason for the law). Who do you blame?
 
So why can't someone who values the additional comfort of first class pay for first class? Why should they be prevented from enjoying something like that with their money? Why should they be forced to travel economy? Just so the people who don't value first class enough to pay for it feel better about themselves? How is that fair?

--

In a world where everyone is equal, there will be no car enthusiasts. No Ferraris, Lamborghinis or Paganis. Everyone would be driving a Toyota Camry.
The problem with First Class is that it puts the needs of the few above the needs of the many. It's more profitable for Virgin to run several first class carriages and cram a load of people into standing in a few less than necessary 2nd class carriages. It's a company putting profit before people and I don't believe that that is right. If you want to go for additional comfort then there needs to be a way of doing so that doesn't hurt other people.
I'd much rather everyone had equal opportunities and we lived in a world without suffering and war than having a few nicer cars. Anarchism doesn't mean everyone must drive the same car. Anarchism doesn't mean everyone must have the same interests. You can be interested in cars, you can be interested in collecting records, you can be interested in playing the guitar. Just because someone else likes guitars doesn't mean you must own the same one or there is only style of guitar from now on.

To clarify what I have been saying, I should have said that I have seen no evidence that we need a state because I believe that all hierarchies that are not just and necessary should be abolished. I haven't seen any evidence that the state is just and necessary.
A few problems I have with the state are as follows
- Has a monopoly over brute physical force and likes to use this force when it suits them in the name of 'spreading democracy' whilst killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process
- Plunders natural resources
- Tortures terror suspects
- Monitoring you without your consent (and pushing through these laws in a highly questionable manner) with no transparency at all.
- It's highly undemocratic and represents the interests of private companies who pay for politicians rather than anyone who actually votes for them.
 
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But the system failed to protect people from murder (which is the reason for the law)
Nope. The reason for the law is to provide a disincentive to kill by means of making the act criminally punishable if no adequate defence can be provided - and to give society, through the state - a just punishment. You can't protect people from any immoral act unless you literally imprison them all - which is itself immoral.

Murder is not a failing of a system which has murder as a criminal offence.


I'd much rather everyone had equal opportunities
Nice idea. Impossible to achieve because we're not all equal. I get more opportunities than someone physically disabled to the point of being confined to a wheelchair and unable to positively communicate with the outside world because I can walk and speak.
and we lived in a world without suffering and war
Nice idea. Impossible as rights violations exist (causing suffering) and they must be dealt with through just means (which sometimes means war).
Anarchism doesn't mean everyone must drive the same car. Anarchism doesn't mean everyone must have the same interests. You can be interested in cars, you can be interested in collecting records, you can be interested in playing the guitar. Just because someone else likes guitars doesn't mean you must own the same one or there is only style of guitar from now on.
Except you can't own a car or guitar or collect records because there is anarchy - no-one can own property (actually you already said that "what we need is an abolition of private property") and even if they could, anyone could take it from them by force because there is no protection from the use of force against them.

 
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Murder is not a failing of a system which has murder as a criminal offence.
So let not working to your potential be a criminal offense.

edit

before you nitpick, I know it's impossible to judge if he's doing his best or not.
 
Nice idea. Impossible to achieve because we're not all equal. I get more opportunities than someone physically disabled to the point of being confined to a wheelchair and unable to positively communicate with the outside world because I can walk and speak.Nice idea. Impossible as rights violations exist (causing suffering) and they must be dealt with through just means (which sometimes means war).
Except you can't own a car or guitar or collect records because there is anarchy - no-one can own property (actually you already said that "what we need is an abolition of private property") and even if they could, anyone could take it from them by force because there is no protection from the use of force against them.
1. I know we are not all equal. The idea is that a disabled person has the same rules and chances applied to them as a person who is not disabled, they shouldn't be discriminated against.
2. Why are those rights violated?
3. I am against private property, not personal property. Property and possessions are two completely separate things.
 
So let not working to your potential be a criminal offense.
Why? Morality tells us that people are entitled to the fruits of their labour - whether that labour is all they can give or nothing. Who are you to say someone can't do nothing if that's what they want to do?
1. I know we are not all equal. The idea is that a disabled person has the same rules and chances applied to them as a person who is not disabled, they shouldn't be discriminated against.
Which is fundamentally impossible. There are things that each of us cannot do due to our physical limitations - I'm too big and fat to be a chimney sweep, for example - and we should not be considered equally for those roles with people who are able to do them due to their physical limitations.

A wheelchair bound, effective-tetraplegic DMD sufferer shouldn't be given equal consideration to be a climbing instructor as someone who actually has the use of their limbs.
2. Why are those rights violated?
Who knows? I've seen (on CCTV!) a guy shove a sharpened biro into another guy's back 40 times just... because.
3. I am against private property, not personal property. Property and possessions are two completely separate things.
Okay, you're using hinky definitions. "Property" is considered "things that can be owned" and "private" is considered "the individual".

Just so we're clear, when you say "what we need is an abolition of private property" you mean that people should not be allowed to own... land? Buildings?

Either way, the second part remains - if they could [have possessions], anyone could take it from them by force because there is no protection from the use of force against them. You'll say that anarchy does away with rulers, not rules and the rules remain and I'll ask the question that, if there are no rulers, who enforces the rules?

If I collect records, what's to stop lots of people who are jealous of my record collection from forcibly removing it from me?
 
Which is fundamentally impossible. There are things that each of us cannot do due to our physical limitations - I'm too big and fat to be a chimney sweep, for example - and we should not be considered equally for those roles with people who are able to do them due to their physical limitations.

Sorry, I should have clarified what I was originally going on about. Originally when I was talking about equality I was referring to us all being given an equal opportunity to achieve our objectives. We can't often achieve what we want because of our own characteristics but we should all get the same opportunity to prove ourselves and no-one should get a head start because of wealth or something like that.

Who knows? I've seen (on CCTV!) a guy shove a sharpened biro into another guy's back 40 times just... because.
I doubt it was 'just because'. The guy will have had issues of some sort connected to either his home life or mental health problems. To go back to your point, most wars aren't just and are fought because of money and in the interests of very small number of people. In order to stop one person oppressing another then give no-one any power.


Just so we're clear, when you say "what we need is an abolition of private property" you mean that people should not be allowed to own... land? Buildings?

Either way, the second part remains - if they could [have possessions], anyone could take it from them by force because there is no protection from the use of force against them. You'll say that anarchy does away with rulers, not rules and the rules remain and I'll ask the question that, if there are no rulers, who enforces the rules?

If I collect records, what's to stop lots of people who are jealous of my record collection from forcibly removing it from me?
This is what Berkman said on the matter, "The revolution abolishes private ownership of the means of production and distribution, and with it goes capitalistic business. Personal possession remains only in the things you use. Thus, your watch is your own, but the watch factory belongs to the people. Land, machinery, and all other public utilities will be collective property, neither to be bought nor sold. Actual use will be considered the only title-not to ownership but to possession. The organization of the coal miners, for example, will be in charge of the coal mines, not as owners but as the operating agency. Similarly will the railroad brotherhoods run the railroads, and so on. Collective possession, cooperatively managed in the interests of the community, will take the place of personal ownership privately conducted for profit."
From that I presume that a house will be counted as a personal possession as long as you are using it, i.e. no second homes.
Your second point comes back to what I was talking about with the book, 'The Spirit Level - Why Equality is Better For Everyone'. Why would people commit crimes in a more equal society? Homicide rates are significantly lower in societies where wealth inequality is low. Also, trust is a lot higher in countries with a more equal distribution of wealth and why do people trust each other more in these societies? Inequality is a huge social divider, it separates people into 'haves and have nots' and you 'other' people that are not like you. There is also less conflict in more equal societies.
Self organisation is a way of preventing yourself from criminals. There is division in the anarchist community in this though. I assume though that you wish for a third party to become involved?
Why would people forcibly take your records? I don't believe that people are inherently bad.
Rules are enforced through a form coercion. The rules are agreed upon by direct democracy and so will no doubt be enforced by people collectively.
 
Semantics. A watch can be considered communal property. As can clothes. There is no reason to make an artificial definition between clothing and housing under such system.

And material rewards will fix that?

In a word: Maybe.

Extra leisure opportunities. License to take time off from work (and to, OMG, not work at full capacity). Better than basic bedding and accommodations.

A certificate won't do that. You have to provide some sort of concrete incentive to make people take jobs that require high amounts of skill and dedication and cause high amounts of stress.

Recognition doesn't feed your unborn (errh... never to be born?) children.

But the government will.

your unborn (errh... never to be born?) children.


But the government will.

unborn (errh... never to be born?) children.


But the government will.

Uhhh...

You'd be surprised.

I know a lot of volunteers and philanthropists. It's easy to give if you have more than enough, and it's a trait that we should develop.

Doesn't change the fact that martyrs don't reproduce.

I'm not going to share things from my personal life but I'll leave you with a small example from here. I don't know if you remember, or even knew about it, but I posted pics and videos of GT6 when it was leaked here. I could've monetized my channel and made at least something out of it. Know why I didn't? Because then the videos would include ads and inconvenience people.

I wrote, photographed and did graphics pro bono for web magazines for nearly a decade.

I could only do that because I made enough from my other jobs to support that, but the extra work went completely unrewarded.

Advertising is a good way to provide good content to people, don't knock it. Since moving to a website with an advertising budget, payment for contributions and reimbursement for costs incurred, I've been able to do much more stuff than I ever could with the previous website.

I'm still underpaid, but I'm compensated for my efforts, which allows me the freedom to work harder. I don't see how it's hard to understand that commensurate compensation results in higher productivity.

-

You could say: Fine, let's figure out what amount of each kind of work needs to be done to merit receiving exactly the same clothing, housing and food as everyone else.

In that case, doctors would be working at well under capacity, something which you just opposed a few posts back. And that would also be a big waste of the cost of the medical education your society spent to educate him.

In your scenario, either you overwork and underpay your doctors, or you force them to work less and squander the cost in labor you spent on his/her education.
 
Too brave for humans.
Huxley would be so proud.

You'd have to give reason why you need the material required. When you tell them why, and you can't draw worth a ****, your final product can be taken pictures of and shown to people that want to replicate it.
So no intellectual property. Our minds are yours to take from. Gotcha.

You're allowed as many renovations as there are material enough for everybody to do the same.
What stops me from using current materials that I already have? Say, I decide my bedside table is unused and take it apart and repurpose the materials, or save up my aluminum cans?

This isn't unfathomable. I'm the guy who makes homemade broth and bouillon out of scraps from chicken or beef. I save the grease from ground beef to make suet bird feeders.

There is a huge DIY community. How do you stop them or force them to give up their ideas and mass produce every little thing?

What if they just make a homemade version of something that already exists? They could have ten of something you only give one of because they are better engineers than their neighbors.


I'm pretty sure that's illegal in most countries today. Fail.
Not where I live. I can't tell you how many people I know who cut down their own Christmas trees.

But that is beside the point. How do you stop that? Just saying its the law isn't an answer. It's a cop out. What is the punishment? What do you do to the new addition on my house?

See you will hit a certain point where you realize your society is not about altruism, but jack-booted thugs enforcing your idea of equality. One where you expect to treat everyone as equal when they are not, so you have to punish those who make the truth apparent.

People aren't bees or ants. We aren't eusocial at all, but you want us to live like that.
 
Sorry, I should have clarified what I was originally going on about. Originally when I was talking about equality I was referring to us all being given an equal opportunity to achieve our objectives. We can't often achieve what we want because of our own characteristics but we should all get the same opportunity to prove ourselves and no-one should get a head start because of wealth or something like that.
Unless your objective is wealth, we have that now - more than at any point of human history.
I doubt it was 'just because'. The guy will have had issues of some sort connected to either his home life or mental health problems.
He was, in court, found sound of mind and sentenced for the murder.

There are people who just do things. They often won't know why they did it, they just did. They're driven by their compulsions to act - even in the face of an internal voice telling them that it's wrong. While it's certainly a difference in their psychological make-up, it's not necessarily a mental health issue.

Let me put it another way. Have you ever caught yourself in a situation thinking "I wonder what would happen if I..." when the next thing is something dangerous? We never do it because it's dangerous, but there are people - ordinary people - who do not have the internal filter that stops them from even thinking about acting on that thought.

It's also a characteristic of sociopathy and psychopathy - but not exclusive to them.
To go back to your point, most wars aren't just and are fought because of money and in the interests of very small number of people. In order to stop one person oppressing another then give no-one any power.
Quite so. It doesn't make war wrong - it just makes unjust wars wrong. A war should be fought to preserve the rights of your citizens.
This is what Berkman said on the matter, "The revolution abolishes private ownership of the means of production and distribution, and with it goes capitalistic business. Personal possession remains only in the things you use. Thus, your watch is your own, but the watch factory belongs to the people. Land, machinery, and all other public utilities will be collective property, neither to be bought nor sold. Actual use will be considered the only title-not to ownership but to possession. The organization of the coal miners, for example, will be in charge of the coal mines, not as owners but as the operating agency. Similarly will the railroad brotherhoods run the railroads, and so on. Collective possession, cooperatively managed in the interests of the community, will take the place of personal ownership privately conducted for profit."
From that I presume that a house will be counted as a personal possession as long as you are using it, i.e. no second homes.
What would happen if you used the house as a base for your business? Say, with all these watches that are being made (without regard for raw materials), you decide to mend watches from your garage. Do you forfeit your home to the collective property because your business must be cooperatively managed in the interests of the community?
Your second point comes back to what I was talking about with the book, 'The Spirit Level - Why Equality is Better For Everyone'. Why would people commit crimes in a more equal society? Homicide rates are significantly lower in societies where wealth inequality is low.
Let's try this another way.

In this book, what peer-reviewed research do they cite with this conclusion upon which to build their argument?
Also, trust is a lot higher in countries with a more equal distribution of wealth and why do people trust each other more in these societies?
And for that? I'd be interested in how they quantified trust if nothing else :lol:
Inequality is a huge social divider, it separates people into 'haves and have nots' and you 'other' people that are not like you.
What's amusing there is that in the present quasi-socialised enviroment, it's the contributions of the haves that give rise to government services available to the have nots.
There is also less conflict in more equal societies.
By "more equal" you're referring to wealth distribution, right? Again, I'd love to see the citation for that.
Self organisation is a way of preventing yourself from criminals.
What if the criminals self-organise?
There is division in the anarchist community in this though. I assume though that you wish for a third party to become involved?
Ideally you'd need an organised body of force - as you say, self-organisation is key as it multiplies the force available - to which citizens contribute equally in order to provide protection and from which criminals are barred entry. You could call it something like "citizen force" or "men of the city" and, if my classic lessons were anything to go by, that would require something derived from the word "polis" (city/citizen).

Of course an organised rule set needs to be created for this... polis force to adjudicate. Since everyone's busy doing their own thing we'd need to have some special people - say, learned people from the cities themselves - decide on the best way to write this rule set and we could vote on whether these people are doing a good job. I suppose if they're people of the polis and that's their day job we could call them... polis-ian or something?
Why would people forcibly take your records? I don't believe that people are inherently bad.
Some people are, some people aren't - though for the largest part people believe they are special cases and will (and we see this a lot in the development of children) behave exactly as badly as they think they can get away with at any given time. Ever driven over the speed limit? Yep, that.

One of the quickest ways to make a good child bad is to show them bad children getting away with being bad (or worse, being rewarded for it - you'll have seen those kids getting trips to Center Parcs because they haven't raped or stabbed anyone at school this month? Yep, that). It works surprisingly well with adults too - watch 90 minutes of a football game and see how many fouls are committed a minute after the first yellow card being very early, compared to one the first yellow card being quite late. Okay, so footballers aren't exactly up there with average intellects - but nor are half of all people...
Rules are enforced through a form coercion. The rules are agreed upon by direct democracy and so will no doubt be enforced by people collectively.
No doubt - but then you have a situation where rules are different in every community. The rules in Attercliffe will be different from the rules in Wadsley Bridge - how do you move between them without becoming a criminal and hanged by a lynch mob (which, incidentally, is how we used to do direct democracy and collective enforcement)?
 
I don't think the choices are Capitalism with a crushing income inequality, or Communism. Those are the two extremes and neither do us any good.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/widening-income-gap-hurting-economy-survey-says-f2D11767020

There is no doubt that income inequality causes problems for not only individuals but countries as a whole. The article above is based on America (which is having HUGE income inequality issues) but applies to any country with a similar economic setup and wealth gap.
 
I don't think the choices are Capitalism with a crushing income inequality, or Communism. Those are the two extremes and neither do us any good.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/widening-income-gap-hurting-economy-survey-says-f2D11767020

There is no doubt that income inequality causes problems for not only individuals but countries as a whole. The article above is based on America (which is having HUGE income inequality issues) but applies to any country with a similar economic setup and wealth gap.
Neither do us any good? "Capitalism with a crushing income inequality" as you put it has led to the wealthiest, most productive civilization in the history of the world, where most of the so called "poor" people are still better off than the majority of the planet. Communism on the other hand has never even come close to the wealth creation and standard of living that communism was capable of achieving. Personally, I could care less about an artificial, meaningless construct like the "wealth gap". Here's a good example.

The top 1% make $250k/year on average and I make $50k.

The top 1% make $750k/year and I make $100k.

The former has better income equality than the latter, but I'm far better off with the latter. I'd much rather have my $100k and don't give a damn what the guy above me makes, it just gives me a target to shoot for.
 
we should all get the same opportunity to prove ourselves and no-one should get a head start because of wealth or something like that.
I can't get over how terrible this sounds. If anyone makes progress, or has good fortune, they need to give it up because someone somewhere else that has nothing to do with them might also want their advantage.

Going about things like that is not only bad for the person with the supposedly unfair advantage, it's bad for everyone because now they all lose that advantage.
 
@VRracingfan

I can't get over how terrible this sounds. If anyone makes progress, or has good fortune, they need to give it up because someone somewhere else that has nothing to do with them might also want their advantage.

Going about things like that is not only bad for the person with the supposedly unfair advantage, it's bad for everyone because now they all lose that advantage.

It also forgets that one of the most important motivating factors for peoples' productivity is to provide for their children. Taking away a parent's ability to provide for their child - giving them a better start than they had, is a recipe for disaster.

It's an easy thing to say... that no child should have any advantages. But one forgets that to say that is to say that no parent should be able to provide for their child... isn't giving your child the best education, values, morals, experience, and wisdom what parenting is all about? It's not going to be equal.
 
Neither do us any good? "Capitalism with a crushing income inequality" as you put it has led to the wealthiest, most productive civilization in the history of the world, where most of the so called "poor" people are still better off than the majority of the planet. Communism on the other hand has never even come close to the wealth creation and standard of living that communism was capable of achieving. Personally, I could care less about an artificial, meaningless construct like the "wealth gap". Here's a good example.

The top 1% make $250k/year on average and I make $50k.

The top 1% make $750k/year and I make $100k.

The former has better income equality than the latter, but I'm far better off with the latter. I'd much rather have my $100k and don't give a damn what the guy above me makes, it just gives me a target to shoot for.

You mistake what I said for Capitalism in general. My issue is with the level of income inequality, not the capitalism.

Your example is both overly simplistic and off topic.

First of all I'd like to point out that as it states in the article I posted, inequality harms the economy as a whole. This is because the wealthy spend a smaller percentage of their income than the rest of us do.

The International Business times published an article on the subject and found that the less a household makes a year the larger the percentage of that income is spent. They break it down as such.


Low income family: $17,563 income, $24,806 spent. (141.2%)

Average income family: $63,685 income, $49,705 spent. (78%)

High income family: $247,261 income, $123,056 spent. (49.7%)

http://www.ibtimes.com/consumer-spe...h-american-families-spend-housing-education-0

Secondly, income inequality doesn't do anything to help you get that extra 50K a year. The situation may be better for you, but the effect on the economy as a whole is worse in the second scenario. On top of that, if you were to look at those incomes over a period of time rather than just in an instance you'd see the trejectory of your scenario.

Lets say the scenario starts the way you say, with the top 1% making 750K a year and the average making 100K a year. Now lets say the income growth in the future is the same as it has been in the past, how could the incomes look like in 20 years? Here are the numbers (not including inflation)

Top 1%, $877,500 a year.

Average, $105,000 a year.

see the issue here?
 
First of all I'd like to point out that as it states in the article I posted, inequality harms the economy as a whole. This is because the wealthy spend a smaller percentage of their income than the rest of us do.

The International Business times published an article on the subject and found that the less a household makes a year the larger the percentage of that income is spent. They break it down as such.

Low income family: $17,563 income, $24,806 spent. (141.2%)
Average income family: $63,685 income, $49,705 spent. (78%)
High income family: $247,261 income, $123,056 spent. (49.7%)

http://www.ibtimes.com/consumer-spe...h-american-families-spend-housing-education-0
There's two absolutely superb flaws in that particular piece - or at least using in some manner that supports "wealth inequality" as a bad thing.

The first is that high income families may spend a smaller percentage of their income, but they're spending nearly five times as many actual dollars... Dollars get economies moving, not percentages of income.

The second is... that's pre-tax incomes :lol: The high income family pays nearly as much in federal income taxation alone as the average family actually earns in total. The average family pays nearly no income taxation - the top half of all wage earners pay 97.7% of all income tax in the USA - and the low income family is a net beneficiary from income tax - up to 40% more income from tax benefits and breaks alone!

Including tax the sum becomes:
Low income family: $24,588 income, $24,806 spent. (100.8%), -$7,025 in federal taxation
Average income family: $63,685 income, $49,705 spent (78%), $0 in federal taxation
High income family: $187,473 income, $123,056 spent (65.6%), $59,787 in federal taxation

And every high income family provides not only 5 times as much money to the economy as a poor one, but provides enough funding at a federal level to support 8 low income families.

Boo hiss, wealth inequality!
 
There's two absolutely superb flaws in that particular piece - or at least using in some manner that supports "wealth inequality" as a bad thing.

The first is that high income families may spend a smaller percentage of their income, but they're spending nearly five times as many actual dollars... Dollars get economies moving, not percentages of income.

The second is... that's pre-tax incomes :lol: The high income family pays nearly as much in federal income taxation alone as the average family actually earns in total. The average family pays nearly no income taxation - the top half of all wage earners pay 97.7% of all income tax in the USA - and the low income family is a net beneficiary from income tax - up to 40% more income from tax benefits and breaks alone!

Including tax the sum becomes:
Low income family: $24,588 income, $24,806 spent. (100.8%), -$7,025 in federal taxation
Average income family: $63,685 income, $49,705 spent (78%), $0 in federal taxation
High income family: $187,473 income, $123,056 spent (65.6%), $59,787 in federal taxation

And every high income family provides not only 5 times as much money to the economy as a poor one, but provides enough funding at a federal level to support 8 low income families.

Boo hiss, wealth inequality!

Yes, but they spend a larger dollar amount because they are getting a larger dollar amount. 10 million dollars divided between rich families will mean less money back in the economy than 10 million dollars divided between poor or average families.

But the federal income taxes aren't the only taxes. The middle income bracket in the U.S. has an effective 25% tax rate which is hardly $0 in taxes.

But it's you don't need to take my word for it. There is plenty of evidence that income inequality does more than hurt individuals.
 
Yes, but they spend a larger dollar amount because they are getting a larger dollar amount. 10 million dollars divided between rich families will mean less money back in the economy than 10 million dollars divided between poor or average families.

Except that nobody stockpiles their money in cash under their mattress. Wealthy people invest their money in businesses both domestic and abroad. Nearly all of that money is used to create wealth. One could argue that purchases of shares of tesla stock does more to promote the economy than a few extra lbs of ground beef.

But the federal income taxes aren't the only taxes. The middle income bracket in the U.S. has an effective 25% tax rate which is hardly $0 in taxes.

The middle income bracket doesn't hit middle income people.

But it's you don't need to take my word for it. There is plenty of evidence that income inequality does more than hurt individuals.

I can't wait for you to post it.
 
Corruption, solve it.

A lot of these 3rd world countries would be a lot more prosperous if not for corrupt government officials and "rich" power hungry citizens that play along.
 
Yes, but they spend a larger dollar amount because they are getting a larger dollar amount. 10 million dollars divided between rich families will mean less money back in the economy than 10 million dollars divided between poor or average families.
Uhhh, no it won't. Each poor family spends $25k a year. Each average family spends $50k a year. Each "rich" one* spends $125k a year - that's as much as the average and poor households added together twice, despite also paying the average household's entire income as federal income tax.

What I was going to type next was then covered by Danoff:
Except that nobody stockpiles their money in cash under their mattress. Wealthy people invest their money in businesses both domestic and abroad. Nearly all of that money is used to create wealth. One could argue that purchases of shares of tesla stock does more to promote the economy than a few extra lbs of ground beef.
But the federal income taxes aren't the only taxes.
I didn't say they were - in fact I did say that the numbers accounted for federal income tax alone. The point was that the article entirely left off the concept of taxation to generate skewed figures in addition to confusing percentage of income spent with amount spent.

It's presenting data to make you leap to an unexamined conclusion.


*And $125k pre-tax personal income is not rich - it's certainly comfortable but not rich.
 
Corruption, solve it.

A lot of these 3rd world countries would be a lot more prosperous if not for corrupt government officials and "rich" power hungry citizens that play along.
 
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