Wealth 85 richest equals wealth 3.5 billion poorest.

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So... are you faulting capitalism for the dictatorships of Africa?
Absolutely, perhaps not fully, but surely to some extent. As the saying goes, follow the money trail. Are you telling me that all of the pollution and disparity in China isn't caused by capitalism?

Rallywagon, it's not grammar police, it's lets-have-a-constructive-argument-instead-of-mindless-finger-pointing police.
So constructing the debate differently than you means he's wrong? He stated he wasn't well versed in debate or argument. But just because he may not have good grammar doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to formulate an idea and defend it.
 
Absolutely, perhaps not fully, but surely to some extent. As the saying goes, follow the money trail. Are you telling me that all of the pollution and disparity in China isn't caused by capitalism?

So please explain then how capitalism is responsible for African dictatorships. I'm all ears.

Also, no, capitalism is not responsible for any pollution in china. The chinese government is responsible for allowing the human rights violation. One person polluting the property of another isn't capitalism, it's property damage, and it's the responsibility of the government to protect citizens from property damage by other citizens. Next question.
 
...because you said this:



Which is only true if you assume that charity isn't happening. I see now that you didn't mean to say that - and now I must ask you what you actually meant with this statement, because clearly I didn't understand it.
Once again I am missing the how this ties in with assuming I meant government? Further, what good is this aid doing? Are you saying this without ever having left the comfort of your arm chair? Have you traveled to these places needing aid to see how they are getting it, or too see the affect it is having? Have you seen the area's that aren't getting aid to compair?
Again, I want to stress this point, Capitalism is a tool. No tool is inherently evil. It is the one using it that makes it good or bad. Right now, I really do not believe anything good is really coming from the way we are using capitalism.
 
So please explain then how capitalism is responsible for African dictatorships. I'm all ears.

Also, no, capitalism is not responsible for any pollution in china. The chinese government is responsible for allowing the human rights violation. One person polluting the property of another isn't capitalism, it's property damage, and it's the responsibility of the government to protect citizens from property damage by other citizens. Next question.
Your so right, the government there is! Thanks for pointing that out. Now why would they let hundereds of thousands of their citizens suffer, while tons of trash is dumped all over them? Because they mechanics of Capitalism. Because they are being paid to not pay attention. Because these companies don't want to invest money into properly cleaning and filtering their trash. Because that pulls away from their profit, profit being a solely capitalistic notion.
 
Once again I am missing the how this ties in with assuming I meant government?

There are two types of charity, private charity and forcible charity (by governments). You were saying that capitalism leaves people without charity. Clearly you didn't mean that it leaves people without private charity, because private charity thrives under capitalism. Since you were blaming capitalism for a lack of charity, and you couldn't have been blaming it for a lack of private charity, it stands to reason that you must have been blaming it for a lack of forcible charity (government).

Now I trust you see why your statement made no sense.

Further, what good is this aid doing?

What good is the salvation army doing? Why don't you ask them? Why don't you ask the thousands of private charities what good they're doing. I'm sure they'll be happy to answer your questions.


Are you saying this without ever having left the comfort of your arm chair? Have you traveled to these places needing aid to see how they are getting it, or too see the affect it is having? Have you seen the area's that aren't getting aid to compair?

Are you once again blaming capitalism for dictatorships in other nations? How does that work exactly?

Rallywagon
Your so right, the government there is! Thanks for pointing that out. Now why would they let hundereds of thousands of their citizens suffer, while tons of trash is dumped all over them? Because they mechanics of Capitalism. Because they are being paid to not pay attention. Because these companies don't want to invest money into properly cleaning and filtering their trash. Because that pulls away from their profit, profit being a solely capitalistic notion.

So the government is corrupt, and this is a failure of capitalism somehow? If anything this is an argument to reduce the role of the corrupt government to a small role which cannot be corrupted.
 
There are two types of charity, private charity and forcible charity (by governments). You were saying that capitalism leaves people without charity. Clearly you didn't mean that it leaves people without private charity, because private charity thrives under capitalism. Since you were blaming capitalism for a lack of charity, and you couldn't have been blaming it for a lack of private charity, it stands to reason that you must have been blaming it for a lack of forcible charity (government).

Now I trust you see why your statement made no sense.



What good is the salvation army doing? Why don't you ask them? Why don't you ask the thousands of private charities what good they're doing. I'm sure they'll be happy to answer your questions.




Are you once again blaming capitalism for dictatorships in other nations? How does that work exactly?



So the government is corrupt, and this is a failure of capitalism somehow? If anything this is an argument to reduce the role of the corrupt government to a small role which cannot be corrupted.
Like I said, capitalism is just a tool. But it is also a coveted tool. Ask yourself why would these companies want to goto China or India, when their selling base is in America? Because they know they don't have to worry about human rights or environmental legislation, since these countries don't have those. Thus they can make the their products at a far reduced amount, but still sell it for the same retail price, thus improving their profit margin. The government, also wanting their take of the pie goes along with it. Some may have had the notion that allowing these companies to bring their factories in might help bring more money to the country and thus to the people. But I fear those people are out weighed by the more greedy types, with proof in the continuing decline of the envirnoment and human health around the areas where the factories are.
Look, I get that money, or anything really, isn't the root of all evil, humans are. However, Capitalism gives people an excuse to be this way, it gves them a reason and a want to act this way. It gives them something that they can use to help them sleep better. It's an enabler. As jobs left America, and more of our citizens lost jobs and went on welfare, so that companies could make their goods cheaper, that is a trait of capitalism. Next you will tell me that supply and demand is legit too right? When the reality of the matter is that it is a supply drives demand world. Supply and demand was once a model that worked. A long time ago. But when you have not one, but no less then 3 companies making millions of irons a day, where is the demand? I mean really, other than a few nuances here and there, all irons are pretty much the same. Do we really need millions made a day, let alone a year, or even 2? I can't believe for the life of me there is that much of a demand. And that is just one of millions of items to use as an example.
 
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just because he may not have good grammar doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to formulate an idea and defend it.

He's allowed to. We're still waiting for him to do it.
 
Another issue with Capitalism I would like to point out. With the way we are moving, it is becoming more and more incompatible with work. Back in the 60's no one really had robots, automation was a notion from the Jetsons. But now you can't go into a place without seeing even mild forms of automation. Whole factories of workers are being replaced with robotics and a tech or two for maintenance. the more we turn to automation (since robots don't require healthcare, vacation days or are limited to 8 hour shifts, you can bet it will keep growing) the more middle class and lower will feel the press as unemployment climbs and job opportunities dwindle.
 
Like I said, capitalism is just a tool. But it is also a coveted tool. Ask yourself why would these companies want to goto China or India, when their selling base is in America? Because they know they don't have to worry about human rights or environmental legislation, since these countries don't have those. Thus they can make the their products at a far reduced amount, but still sell it for the same retail price, thus improving their profit margin. The government, also wanting their take of the pie goes along with it. Some may have had the notion that allowing these companies to bring their factories in might help bring more money to the country and thus to the people. But I fear those people are out weighed by the more greedy types, with proof in the continuing decline of the envirnoment and human health around the areas where the factories are.

You're blaming capitalism for greed and corruption, when greed and corruption are inherent in human beings.

Step 1) You park your car in a bad neighborhood
2) Thieves steal your rims
3) The thieves sell your rims
4) The police, paid by the thieves with the profits of the rim sale, overlook the theft

You're blaming step 3 for step 2 and calling it capitalism.

I say step 2 is going to happen, it's in the nature of human beings, and it's what happens when you have anarchy. Step 4 is the problem. And step 4 is a failure of government to do what it is supposed to do - protect human rights. Capitalism is an economic system, it's not designed to, nor it is required to protect the rights of individuals. That job is for the government. The fact that the more power, influence government has (ie: the larger government gets) the more corrupt it gets is not a failure of capitalism (which has nothing to do with government), but a failure of government.



However, Capitalism gives people an excuse to be this way, it gves them a reason and a want to act this way.

I have no idea why people abusing the notion of capitalism to help them destroy other people's property is the fault of capitalism and not the people. It would be like me robbing a bank and saying I did it because I didn't like the way they decorated.

As jobs left America, and more of our citizens lost jobs and went on welfare, so that companies could make their goods cheaper, that is a trait of capitalism.

It is a trait of capitalism to drive economies to efficiency. But you have to look at why Americans are so expensive to employ. The answer is, once again, government.

Next you will tell me that supply and demand is legit too right?

Is economics legitimate? Yes, it accurately describes human interaction.

When the reality of the matter is that it is a supply drives demand world.

Explain to me how this works exactly? At some point in the explanation you will reveal exactly where you misunderstand economics, I'm just not sure where.

Can a huge supply change how many of an item people want? No. Can a huge supply reduce price because demand is not high enough, thereby increasing demand to meet the supply? Well that would be supply and demand economics wouldn't it?

If you sell pencils for $1 each, and people generally buy 1 per week, increasing the number of pencils will do nothing to change the number people want. If you have more pencils than you can move at the current price and you want to sell more, you drop the price to 50 cents. Suddenly it becomes economical to use pencils differently and people want more. That's not supply driving economics, that's supply AND demand balancing over price - which is economics.

Another issue with Capitalism I would like to point out. With the way we are moving, it is becoming more and more incompatible with work. Back in the 60's no one really had robots, automation was a notion from the Jetsons. But now you can't go into a place without seeing even mild forms of automation. Whole factories of workers are being replaced with robotics and a tech or two for maintenance. the more we turn to automation (since robots don't require healthcare, vacation days or are limited to 8 hour shifts, you can bet it will keep growing) the more middle class and lower will feel the press as unemployment climbs and job opportunities dwindle.

Making goods cheaper to produce (because robots don't require healthcare) is how standard of living improves. The workforce then reorganizes more efficiently, ensuring that the people are not in wasteful jobs they don't need to be doing and instead are in jobs where they are needed. Again, this is basic economics.
 
Supply driving demand. Hm. Honestly "Take Economics 101" would answer 75% of the posts in this thread. Although then I wouldn't get to see Danoff explain this stuff, which is always nice.

Protip: Do not assume that Capitalism exists in America or almost any modern state.
 
Ok, last round for me in this debate.
You're blaming capitalism for greed and corruption, when greed and corruption are inherent in human beings.

Step 1) You park your car in a bad neighborhood
2) Thieves steal your rims
3) The thieves sell your rims
4) The police, paid by the thieves with the profits of the rim sale, overlook the theft

You're blaming step 3 for step 2 and calling it capitalism.

I say step 2 is going to happen, it's in the nature of human beings, and it's what happens when you have anarchy. Step 4 is the problem. And step 4 is a failure of government to do what it is supposed to do - protect human rights. Capitalism is an economic system, it's not designed to, nor it is required to protect the rights of individuals. That job is for the government. The fact that the more power, influence government has (ie: the larger government gets) the more corrupt it gets is not a failure of capitalism (which has nothing to do with government), but a failure of government.
To begin, without capitalism, and its wonderful toy, money, there would have been no reason for the theives to steal, since there would have been no money to profit from. this then moves on to the police. No money means no bribe. But you are taking this into a very very limited context. I'm not taling about a thug and a bad cop. I am talking about cities of suffering people and very corrupt governements selling out their people for the sake of money. We are talking about large corporations polluting and destroying the environment for the sake of not wanting to pay for the proper equipment. We are talking about the complete lack of caring of people and their basic needs because it doesnt make a buck. This is a failure of the Government sure, but its perpetuated by Capitalism.

Can a huge supply change how many of an item people want? No. Can a huge supply reduce price because demand is not high enough, thereby increasing demand to meet the supply? Well that would be supply and demand economics wouldn't it?

If you sell pencils for $1 each, and people generally buy 1 per week, increasing the number of pencils will do nothing to change the number people want. If you have more pencils than you can move at the current price and you want to sell more, you drop the price to 50 cents. Suddenly it becomes economical to use pencils differently and people want more. That's not supply driving economics, that's supply AND demand balancing over price - which is economics.
Keep digging on this one man. Supply and Demand was once a true equation, that worked. When there was demand for a supply. However, things now are made far, far, beyond demand. Further more, and the portion that I think get missed is that we do not live in a world of finite resources. We are running out of new ores materials that simply are not replenishable. All this does in a world driven by capitalism is raise the price and want of an item (real supply and demand) So, as these resources start to run out, we simply find more destuctive ways to strip what is left from the earth without care of the people around said area that is being affected. Point in case, tarsands oil, and most metal ores. Even something as abundent as iron is running near its last legs.

Making goods cheaper to produce (because robots don't require healthcare) is how standard of living improves. The workforce then reorganizes more efficiently, ensuring that the people are not in wasteful jobs they don't need to be doing and instead are in jobs where they are needed. Again, this is basic economics.
So not only are we moving jobs out of america, but the ones we have are now being automated, and this improves living standards how? I can't quite quantify improved living and joblessness. Seems fairly incompatible to me. Regardless of that, lets consider this. Factory Blah desides to automate its line to produce toothbrushes. It had 50 employees on the line. 45 of which will now be laid off. Most of those employees have worked there for 10-20 years, some close to retirement. Now these 45 people are forced to go job hunting in an already bad economy, which a skill set that is specific to this kind of factory work. They now have no job and a very limited means of income in the form of unemployment. How is it these people are to afford to get training to develope new skill sets? Some of those people are probably to old to be considered for hire else where anyway (from my experience watching this happen to my father, and others, I promise you this is a real issue if your over 50, or even 40 in some cases). If we automate so much of our jobs. From food to factory, then we are effectively killing no less then half of our jobs. How is this compatible with an improved living standard if no one is working to earn money? I mean, all of these things would be great, if it actually worked like you are supposing, but it doesn't, a factory leaves, and no new jobs are created to replace the ones the left. We already have a high unempoyment rate. That means there are countless other people out there trying to find work too. The market is saturated with people looking for work, adding more and removing jobs does nothing but create more poverty.
 
Supply driving demand. Hm. Honestly "Take Economics 101" would answer 75% of the posts in this thread. Although then I wouldn't get to see Danoff explain this stuff, which is always nice.

Protip: Do not assume that Capitalism exists in America or almost any modern state.
Capitalism doesn't exist in America? You will have to explain this to me. Not sure your protip is so pro.
 
Capitalism doesn't exist in America? You will have to explain this to me. Not sure your protip is so pro.
It does exist, in bits and pieces. Show me one government subsidy that exists in the US and I'll show you a distortion of a capitalist market.
 
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Capitalism doesn't exist in America? You will have to explain this to me. Not sure your protip is so pro.

Not sure if your posts in this thread lend you the authority to say what tips are pro and what aren't. Other than that, look at what Keef said.

America can be well described as a Corporatist State.
 
The market is saturated with people looking for work, adding more and removing jobs does nothing but create more poverty.

Except that our best minds, currently solidly ensconced in media, legislatures, courts, regulatory agencies, banks and boardrooms - all blessed by academia - think otherwise. All the things you have complained about, however true, are not accepted in the current mainstream. Increasing efficiency by reducing jobs and bringing in more immigrants and skilled foreign workers is the correct nostrum for greater growth, they agree.

Who ever said life was fair? We simply don't care overmuch about the fate of people who are less able, vigorous, intelligent and lucky as we. "Life is tough; tougher if you're stupid", said John Wayne. We are justified in our actions by institutional philosophies and policies. Our ends justify our means. :rolleyes:
 
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To begin, without capitalism, and its wonderful toy, money, there would have been no reason for the theives to steal, since there would have been no money to profit from. this then moves on to the police. No money means no bribe. But you are taking this into a very very limited context. I'm not taling about a thug and a bad cop. I am talking about cities of suffering people and very corrupt governements selling out their people for the sake of money. We are talking about large corporations polluting and destroying the environment for the sake of not wanting to pay for the proper equipment. We are talking about the complete lack of caring of people and their basic needs because it doesnt make a buck. This is a failure of the Government sure, but its perpetuated by Capitalism.

Really? Bribery and corruption don't exist without money? Think that one over for a little while. Monkeys bribe each other... monkeys.

Keep digging on this one man. Supply and Demand was once a true equation, that worked. When there was demand for a supply. However, things now are made far, far, beyond demand.

Why? Such a thing would be expensive and pointless. No company would freely make tons and tons of products that nobody was going to buy. What you say makes no economic sense, this is not how human beings behave.

Further more, and the portion that I think get missed is that we do not live in a world of finite resources. We are running out of new ores materials that simply are not replenishable. All this does in a world driven by capitalism is raise the price and want of an item (real supply and demand) So, as these resources start to run out, we simply find more destuctive ways to strip what is left from the earth without care of the people around said area that is being affected. Point in case, tarsands oil, and most metal ores. Even something as abundent as iron is running near its last legs.

Now you're on a tangent. Let's stay focused on the topic.

So not only are we moving jobs out of america, but the ones we have are now being automated, and this improves living standards how? I can't quite quantify improved living and joblessness. Seems fairly incompatible to me. Regardless of that, lets consider this. Factory Blah desides to automate its line to produce toothbrushes. It had 50 employees on the line. 45 of which will now be laid off. Most of those employees have worked there for 10-20 years, some close to retirement. Now these 45 people are forced to go job hunting in an already bad economy, which a skill set that is specific to this kind of factory work. They now have no job and a very limited means of income in the form of unemployment. How is it these people are to afford to get training to develope new skill sets? Some of those people are probably to old to be considered for hire else where anyway (from my experience watching this happen to my father, and others, I promise you this is a real issue if your over 50, or even 40 in some cases). If we automate so much of our jobs. From food to factory, then we are effectively killing no less then half of our jobs. How is this compatible with an improved living standard if no one is working to earn money? I mean, all of these things would be great, if it actually worked like you are supposing, but it doesn't, a factory leaves, and no new jobs are created to replace the ones the left. We already have a high unempoyment rate. That means there are countless other people out there trying to find work too. The market is saturated with people looking for work, adding more and removing jobs does nothing but create more poverty.

Imagine an economy in which no jobs are ever destroyed and there is no unemployment. Everyone who has ever had a job will have a job. So people are employed to shoe horses, and make candles for light. Telephone operators are employed to run switchboards that don't exist. It used to take many times as many people to produce less food than we have today. Well, all of those people now sit around and get paid while machines do the job.

What do you think that does to our standard of living? It sandbags every product with absurd prices. Suddenly you can't afford to fuel your car because there are too many bored people to pay. Suddenly you can't afford to buy food because you have to pay those people to sit around. Suddenly owning a telephone is a luxury, and nothing can be imported (takes waaay too much labor). Think about what this does to our standard of living.

...and that is how you know that you're wrong.

Our ends justify our means. :rolleyes:

What means?

The ends never justify the means.
 
Really? Bribery and corruption don't exist without money? Think that one over for a little while. Monkeys bribe each other... monkeys.



Why? Such a thing would be expensive and pointless. No company would freely make tons and tons of products that nobody was going to buy. What you say makes no economic sense, this is not how human beings behave.



Now you're on a tangent. Let's stay focused on the topic.



Imagine an economy in which no jobs are ever destroyed and there is no unemployment. Everyone who has ever had a job will have a job. So people are employed to shoe horses, and make candles for light. Telephone operators are employed to run switchboards that don't exist. It used to take many times as many people to produce less food than we have today. Well, all of those people now sit around and get paid while machines do the job.

What do you think that does to our standard of living? It sandbags every product with absurd prices. Suddenly you can't afford to fuel your car because there are too many bored people to pay. Suddenly you can't afford to buy food because you have to pay those people to sit around. Suddenly owning a telephone is a luxury, and nothing can be imported (takes waaay too much labor). Think about what this does to our standard of living.

...and that is how you know that you're wrong.



What means?

The ends never justify the means.


All those people sit around and get paid while machines do the job.

So where does that money come from? If you are talking about welfare then it's a pitiful amount compared to the average worker. What do you think will happen, when the amount of money drops below the amount they need? Anarchy? Your standard of living is dropping day by day, some people don't have a standard of living, they can't even survive. Soon there will be no middle class. You will be poor or rich. When you're poor, it doesn't matter how hard you work legally, the tax man takes what he wants. And who's to stop him?

Supermarket till operator is paid better than welfare. A supermarket decides that they can put in self-service scanners. All of a sudden 50 jobs have been replaced by 10. Those 40 now need jobs. What if there are no opportunities for them? Then it's welfare, now those 10, have to support the 40 as well as themselves (although the burden is shared by all taxpayers in reality). Now, what if the company wants to make even more money for it's owner, and decides to pay minimum wage to those who are left. Now the state needs to top up the wages, so that the workers family don't starve. Why is the supermarket being subsidised ? The money has to be paid, so why aren't the right people paying it?

How is this working? Is this capitalism? Is this a problem with welfare? Does capitalism create the welfare problem? And if it does then how is it solved?
 
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All those people sit around and get paid while machines do the job.

So where does that money come from?

Well, in my hypothetical it comes from the employer who gets it from the consumer who is paying insane prices. That's because in my hypothetical, the people didn't get laid off, they were retained in their jobs. It'd be like a supermarket installing a bunch of self checkout machines but keeping all of their cashiers.

You headed somewhere else with this, so let's talk about that too.

If you are talking about welfare then it's a pitiful amount compared to the average worker. What do you think will happen, when the amount of money drops below the amount they need? Anarchy? Your standard of living is dropping day by day, some people don't have a standard of living, they can't even survive.

My standard of living has been increasing actually - along with the country as a whole.

Soon there will be no middle class. You will be poor or rich. When you're poor, it doesn't matter how hard you work legally, the tax man takes what he wants. And who's to stop him?

Do you know how many decades people have made that argument and been wrong?

Supermarket till operator is paid better than welfare. A supermarket decides that they can put in self-service scanners. All of a sudden 50 jobs have been replaced by 10. Those 40 now need jobs. What if there are no opportunities for them?

Oh noes! Technology replaces a job that every high schooler is qualified to do. Do you know why supermarkets are trying to do that? Obamacare, health insurance demands, unions, social security, OSHA, etc. etc. etc. All of the sandbagging that the government puts on the American worker (UK is shockingly similar) means they get more easily replaced by machines. That is the end result of all of the political pie in the sky claims that they can push through legislation mandating that employers pay this or that.

But let's say it wasn't that. Let's say that the machines were just that cheap. What happens to those people? They learn a new skill doing something that isn't so easily replaced by machines. That's exactly how the economy is supposed to work. That's how economies stay efficient and productive. That's how companies and nations stay competitive. Not by maintaining every job that isn't useful or efficient and sandbagging the economy, but by restructuring toward productivity.

Then it's welfare, now those 10, have to support the 40 as well as themselves (although the burden is shared by all taxpayers in reality).

Welfare of course shouldn't exist and doesn't work. Anyone who is unemployable should be covered by private charity, not the taxpayers.

Now, what if the company wants to make even more money for it's owner, and decides to pay minimum wage to those who are left. Now the state needs to top up the wages, so that the workers family don't starve.

The company can't do that for the same reason your company can't do that to you and mine can't do that to me - people will take their services elsewhere to companies that will pay them more. This is how economics works - your services are valuable, more valuable most likely than minimum wage. If your company starts ticking you off by under paying you, you'll leave and nobody will want to or be competently capable of replacing you. This is why the vast majority of the people in the workforce make far more than minimum wage. It's not charity on the part of the company.

Why is the supermarket being subsidised ? The money has to be paid, so why aren't the right people paying it?

The money doesn't have to be paid. It has to be earned.


How is this working? Is this capitalism? Is this a problem with welfare? Does capitalism create the welfare problem?

It's economics. Welfare is its own set of problems. And no capitalism does not create a welfare (government) problem. Government creates government problems.
 
So not only are we moving jobs out of america, but the ones we have are now being automated, and this improves living standards how? Factory Blah desides to automate its line to produce toothbrushes. It had 50 employees on the line. 45 of which will now be laid off. Most of those employees have worked there for 10-20 years, some close to retirement.

I'll give you an example. The company I worked for in the summer makes protective rainwear for a variety of industries. The old method of cutting the fabric was to have someone get on top of a huge table on their hands and knees and use a paper stencil to cut out the shapes of fabric to be sewn into garments. This was a huge bottleneck, there was only so much space in the plant and only so much fabric could be cut in a day without sacrificing quality, and usually it was the limiting factor in production.

About 10 years ago, that process was replaced with an automated cutting machine that uses computer design plans to cut the fabric. This means that someone now works for the company designing the plans that the machine uses to cut the fabric. This means that because of the increased efficiency (the computer doesn't make mistakes), the company has hired more and more sewers, welders, and other production workers. This means that the company can create more specialized garments, which means more R&D, marketing, and sales people hired.

This increased efficiency also means that the companies they sell to can get their products cheaper. Fishermen, power companies, and oil companies can all get their products cheaper from this company than they could in the past which allows them to lower their costs to offer products cheaper.

There's more to it than jobs in a vacuum. What you're missing with this example is that the increase in toothbrush production (or rainwear from my example) means that more and more deliveries are made, which impacts the shipping industry, increased volume means meeting the demand of more customers in different markets, which in the case of this industry means more sales guys (which means more company cars to buy). It means more marketing material, more production workers, more outside consulting, maintenance workers for the machines, higher volume of fabric purchased, and most importantly lower costs for customers which allows the company to remain competitive.

Think bigger. Think about what less production costs means for everyone else in the economy.
 
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I feel like the argument @Enemem is using revolves around people being too stupid to make decisions on their own, with no desire for self improvement, and would simply die if they didn't have the government to spoon feed them.

Also, the misuse of cause and effect from the "save" the jobs mindset is, well, unsettling.

Maybe they are just projecting their own sense of self worth onto economic models...
 
I feel like the argument @Enemem is using revolves around people being too stupid to make decisions on their own, with no desire for self improvement, and would simply die if they didn't have the government to spoon feed them.

Also, the misuse of cause and effect from the "save" the jobs mindset is, well, unsettling.

Maybe they are just projecting their own sense of self worth onto economic models...

It's a bit trite but why don't we just pay people to dig holes and fill them in?

That's essentially what the argument becomes when we say companies shouldn't innovate because some people might need to find a new job.
 
The world? No, the world has not seen untold prosperity, just the US and UK. I can tell you, having to been to a few other countries that arent as lucky as the US or the UK. They sure as hell would not agree with this, as they live in their shantties and the such a mile down the road from huge banks and wealth.
It's actually not too bad here either, when it isn't snowing:lol:
 
Interesting thing, though. Know why those shanties are there just a stone's throw away from modern commercial developments?

Money.

Squatters don't become squatters overnight. And certainly not due to the movement of money in banks. They become squatters because they can make more money scrounging for garbage in the city or begging for coin than they can get farming.

It's ugly, but they're there because there's so much excess money in the system that they can live there.


-

Of course, there are other reasons for squatters. Genocidal dictatorships which don't allow free movement of money and can't feed their people (they move as refugees elsewhere), a lack of infrastructure development in rural areas (government issue) and poor economic planning (government issue).

Not really a capitalism thing. The last two still happen (and arguably are worse) in non-capitalist countries.
 
My standard of living has been increasing actually - along with the country as a whole.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/1019/A-long-steep-drop-for-Americans-standard-of-living

Yours may have increased,but you're wrong about the whole country.(USA that is)

Do you know how many decades people have made that argument and been wrong?
Once again, assuming you're right. And it depends on which country you live in. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/business/americas-sinking-middle-class.html?_r=0

NYTimes
So either we define the middle class down a couple of notches or we acknowledge that the middle class isn’t in the middle anymore..


What happens to those people? They learn a new skill doing something that isn't so easily replaced by machines. That's exactly how the economy is supposed to work. That's how economies stay efficient and productive. That's how companies and nations stay competitive. Not by maintaining every job that isn't useful or efficient and sandbagging the economy, but by restructuring toward productivity.

That's my point. What jobs aren't easily replaced by machines?

Welfare of course shouldn't exist and doesn't work. Anyone who is unemployable should be covered by private charity, not the taxpayers.
There's no difference between private charity and welfare, except for where the money comes from in the first place.

The company can't do that for the same reason your company can't do that to you and mine can't do that to me - people will take their services elsewhere to companies that will pay them more. This is how economics works - your services are valuable, more valuable most likely than minimum wage. If your company starts ticking you off by under paying you, you'll leave and nobody will want to or be competently capable of replacing you. This is why the vast majority of the people in the workforce make far more than minimum wage. It's not charity on the part of the company.

This is how it works when supply of work exceeds demand. However, when unemployment is over a certain level, every new job pays minimum wage.

Interesting thing, though. Know why those shanties are there just a stone's throw away from modern commercial developments?

Money.

Squatters don't become squatters overnight. And certainly not due to the movement of money in banks. They become squatters because they can make more money scrounging for garbage in the city or begging for coin than they can get farming.

It's ugly, but they're there because there's so much excess money in the system that they can live there.

Do you have any evidence of that?

I'll give you an example. The company I worked for in the summer makes protective rainwear for a variety of industries. The old method of cutting the fabric was to have someone get on top of a huge table on their hands and knees and use a paper stencil to cut out the shapes of fabric to be sewn into garments. This was a huge bottleneck, there was only so much space in the plant and only so much fabric could be cut in a day without sacrificing quality, and usually it was the limiting factor in production.

About 10 years ago, that process was replaced with an automated cutting machine that uses computer design plans to cut the fabric. This means that someone now works for the company designing the plans that the machine uses to cut the fabric. This means that because of the increased efficiency (the computer doesn't make mistakes), the company has hired more and more sewers, welders, and other production workers. This means that the company can create more specialized garments, which means more R&D, marketing, and sales people hired.

This increased efficiency also means that the companies they sell to can get their products cheaper. Fishermen, power companies, and oil companies can all get their products cheaper from this company than they could in the past which allows them to lower their costs to offer products cheaper.

There's more to it than jobs in a vacuum. What you're missing with this example is that the increase in toothbrush production (or rainwear from my example) means that more and more deliveries are made, which impacts the shipping industry, increased volume means meeting the demand of more customers in different markets, which in the case of this industry means more sales guys (which means more company cars to buy). It means more marketing material, more production workers, more outside consulting, maintenance workers for the machines, higher volume of fabric purchased, and most importantly lower costs for customers which allows the company to remain competitive.

Think bigger. Think about what less production costs means for everyone else in the economy.

If this were an open system, you'd be right, but it's not. It's a closed system, which as well as including your fabric company, fabrics companies all over the world are in the system as well. What happens to the other companies, either they invest and so compete on a somewhat equal footing or they go bust.

This is an article which I think covers most of what myself and Rallywagon have been trying to convey. With links !

http://www.forbes.com/sites/igorgreenwald/2013/01/07/is-capitalism-dying/
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Capitalism has been the dominant economic system in the Western world for, give or take, 400 years. And in that virtual eye blink in the grander scheme of things it has produced more wealth than all the prior economic systems put together.

It’s also lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, educated billions and may—heck, let’s just stipulate will—one day cure cancer.

But nothing—not even the bestest thing ever—lasts forever. Stuff happens. Things change. Systems work until they don’t.

How close is capitalism to the end of its useful life? What comes next? And can we even have an intelligent discussion about any of it without getting bogged down in mutually hostile definitions?

Because capitalism has become one of those trigger words (like terrorism) that ignites strong emotions and ends up meaning whatever we want it to mean.

So then: If you believe capitalism is the system elaborated in the collective workings of Ayn Rand or equate Europe with socialism in the manner of a recent presidential candidate, then of course your capitalism isn’t dying because it’s never existed except as fiction or faith. Sorry for wasting your time.

The rest of us can, I hope, agree that modern capitalism is a more complicated beast requiring some degree of regulation and calibration to people’s non-financial preferences (clean air and such.)

And if the aggregate goal of human striving isn’t merely to maximize aggregate profit but to achieve a measure of happiness and sustainability for the vast majority, well then, perhaps we have a problem. Several problems in fact.

And by “we,” I mean the parties to advanced corporate capitalism as practiced most freely in the US. The Chinese, Russian and French varieties are hardly better, but neither are they global models others emulate. Scandinavia, Switzerland, Germany, Singapore and South Korea are another matter and we have a lot to learn from their success.

But back to US-style capitalism and its problems. One is the tragedy of the commons and the related issue of negative externalities. Carbon pollution and antibiotic resistance are just two public problems exacerbated by the private pursuit of maximum profit. Corporations are notoriously poor minders of the public interest when it’s in conflict with their bottom line.
Big corporations now wield unprecedented political and economic power. A few have ridden the shift toward online commerce to superpower status. Many more have profited by replacing expensive US labor with cheaper overseas workers and software. The end result is that the inequality of wealth and income has grown dramatically not just among households but also across the divide separating large corporations from small businesses.

Studies have shown that inequality saps growth. Combine an unequal playing field with political control over the institutions meant to level it and you get a stagnant, sclerotic economy that wastes potential and allows select politically connected participants to extract unjustified rents. And the thing is, we got here almost unnoticeably, by the natural accretion of small competitive advantages over time.

So now we have the most powerful and cohesive organizations on Earth devoted to the pursuit of profit above all else and frequently at the expense of public interest. And their unprecedented wealth threatens to neuter democratic checks on their behavior. In theory, corporations are still responsible to their shareholders. In practice, they’re beholden to no one but boards of directors handpicked by senior managers.

Free markets respond to supply and demand, and in the US the ready alternatives to domestic labor have placed it in an especially poor bargaining position relative to capital. It’s possible the trend will slow as outsourcing wanes. In 14th century Europe, the bubonic plague temporarily boosted wages and reduced agricultural rents. Barring a similar game-changer, it’s hard to be optimistic about the spending power of workers who double as consumers.

So how can we wonder if the economic system is dying when its standard-bearers have never been stronger? Because the system depends on level, transparent markets to work well, whereas the growing power and wealth disparities it is generating pretty much guarantee the opposite.

Which leads us back to those other countries where the economic system doesn’t seem headed for the same existential crisis.

One thing they all have in common is that their income inequality, as measured by the Gini coefficient, is well below that of the US. In fact, the Scandinavian and German-speaking countries that consistently score well on a variety of business and quality-of-life surveys have some of the lowest inequality scores among developed nations. Not coincidentally, social mobility in those economies has clearly surpassed that in the US, so that the Danish Dream and the German Dream are now much more credible than what’s on offer in America.

It’s a cultural thing, insofar as culture is what seems to restrain Nordic and Teutonic capital and allied politicians from the sort of economic overreach now underway in the US. As Sweden’s center-right Prime Minister Frederik Reinfeldt told Bloomberg News in 2011, “A good society does not have huge differences. If you build trust among people, and I think you need that, then they shouldn’t get far apart from another.”

Sweden has high marginal tax rates but also lots of affluence and private enterprise, tightly regulated banks and a budget that was in surplus as recently as 2011. National debt stands at just 38% of GDP, in contrast with more than 100% in the US.

No country is perfect, and the US has many strengths. But striking a balance in politics and economics doesn’t seem to be one of them any longer.

As capitalism enriches capital at the expense of labor and Wall Street at the expense of Main Street the winners are busily erecting anticompetitive toll gates all across the economic landscape, be they in the form of lower borrowing costs enjoyed by the still-too-big-to-fail banks or the higher health insurance premiums facing small businesses.

This is not a recipe for long-term economic success.
If capitalism means lots of private ownership and fair, transparent markets, then its future remains bright. But if a zero-sum, winner-take-all struggle for leverage is the name of the game, those games seldom conclude as the winners might hope.

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Too often, public interest becomes just another common to be grazed. Witness the spiral in privately set health insurance costs, the unindicted co-conspirator in the recent loss of so many jobs and the primary cause of future federal deficits. It’s an industry fattened by the tax deduction on employer-purchased plans and one notorious for exploiting the relatively inelastic demand for health coverage. The rule in healthcare is, those with the greater market weight make the rules and set the rates. Which is why hospital systems can often double the fees charged by the private physician practices they acquire. In other industries, antitrust regulators would be all over abuses of market power, but the health industry hides in a forest of self-serving rules and ineffective regulation.

Also, and I know this will also come as a shock, but corporations habitually lie when doing so furthers commercial interests. So the health industry will cite medical advances to explain soaring costs, rather than anticompetitive and discriminatory practices. The tobacco industry used to shout from the rooftops that smoking is a harmless hobby. Energy giants sponsored studies questioning the science behind global warming.

Corporations lie more convincingly than individuals. They have the resources to hire experts and lobbyists. They can buy any overt advertising they might require from wholly-owned media subsidiaries. In the US today corporations buy the Congress that writes the laws, subverting that check on their ambitions.
 
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Don't see how that (completely) contradicts what Danoff is saying. It basically points to self-serving regulation being one of the biggest problems with US capitalism. Control of the regulatory bodies by industries and companies with vested interests causes huge problems.
 
That article actually supports our side. You're still on a fallacy of equivocation. That is,

ShMWnTt.jpg


So how can we wonder if the economic system is dying when its standard-bearers have never been stronger? Because the system depends on level, transparent markets to work well, whereas the growing power and wealth disparities it is generating pretty much guarantee the opposite.

See my first post in this thread. There's no free market in America. It's managed. Know why? Because the single most important market-- the market of time preference, i.e., interest-- is set artificially. And the market for the money we use is hitched directly to that, controlled likewise. There is no level or transparency in those markets, the markets under which all other markets must function. Hence, our problems and the misunderstanding in this thread.


“A good society does not have huge differences. If you build trust among people, and I think you need that, then they shouldn’t get far apart from another.”

Sweden has high marginal tax rates but also lots of affluence and private enterprise, tightly regulated banks and a budget that was in surplus as recently as 2011. National debt stands at just 38% of GDP, in contrast with more than 100% in the US.

No country is perfect, and the US has many strengths. But striking a balance in politics and economics doesn’t seem to be one of them any longer.

Another fallacy at work here. A good society does not have huge differences. Making the differences smaller does not then make a society better. However, and again as I mentioned earlier, market freedom and a loss of the price controls in time and money would favor a normalized economy, or one with a normal distribution of wealth. The policies in place now I suppose would trend toward a bimodal distribution between rich and poor, or one extremely skewed toward poor.

As capitalism enriches capital at the expense of labor and Wall Street at the expense of Main Street the winners are busily erecting anticompetitive toll gates all across the economic landscape, be they in the form of lower borrowing costs enjoyed by the still-too-big-to-fail banks or the higher health insurance premiums facing small businesses.

This is not a recipe for long-term economic success.
If capitalism means lots of private ownership and fair, transparent markets, then its future remains bright. But if a zero-sum, winner-take-all struggle for leverage is the name of the game, those games seldom conclude as the winners might hope.

And here we have, finally, the part of your post that supports our side. In bold, you're describing cronyism or economic fascism. That's not capitalism, and we would certainly agree that it's not a recipe for long-term success.

(quick note: enriching capital at the expense of labor doesn't make any sense. Labor is capital. That sounds like some kind of marxist confusion.)

In red, what is being concluded is, "If we have capitalism then the future is bright. If we don't have capitalism, then the future is not bright."

So, thanks for collecting yourself and participating constructively. 👍
 
What jobs aren't easily replaced by machines?

Hookers, for one.

There's no difference between private charity and welfare, except for where the money comes from in the first place.

A private charity is disbursing money that I voluntarily and willingly gave them. Or chose not to give them, if I disagree with their objectives and/or methods. Welfare disburses funds extracted from me at gunpoint*. That, to me, is a huge difference.

*If you're going to quibble about the "gunpoint" thing, what happens if I refuse to pay then refuse to cooperate when they come to take me away?
 
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2011/1019/A-long-steep-drop-for-Americans-standard-of-living

Yours may have increased,but you're wrong about the whole country.(USA that is)

Don't point to a recession to back that up. That's just silly.

Once again, assuming you're right. And it depends on which country you live in. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/business/americas-sinking-middle-class.html?_r=0

I did say that a lot of people made that argument... you're quoting one of them. Also there have been articles like that, and people claiming that, for decades. It's not even that pertinent. Capitalism creates upward mobility unlike any other system.

That's my point. What jobs aren't easily replaced by machines?

Uh... mine for one. Probably yours. Define "easily". Easier than it is to hire you and pay you. Well then that has a lot to do with how difficult your government makes it to hire and pay you doesn't it? All of the jobs that exist right now exist because they were too difficult to replace by machines. That changes over time obviously, but it means there are a lot of them.

There's no difference between private charity and welfare, except for where the money comes from in the first place.

...and how the money is obtained, and whether there are any checks on how it is used, and whether there is any competition for it. So... a lot of difference.


This is how it works when supply of work exceeds demand. However, when unemployment is over a certain level, every new job pays minimum wage.

:lol:

Just no. I'm sorry, do I have to respond to this? I need you to sit and think about that for 30 seconds and then tell me again I have to respond to it. If you do and you still think this, I'll respond sincerely without the use of smileys.

Just so that you're not sitting there thinking that you're right, I'll point out that my wife's job was created where none existed before it almost 2 years ago, and it pays 6 figures.


*article*

That article really helps me more than you. It redefines "capitalism" to mean "socialism", or some sort of cross between "socialism" and "crony capitalism" and then pokes holes.
 
If this were an open system, you'd be right, but it's not. It's a closed system, which as well as including your fabric company, fabrics companies all over the world are in the system as well. What happens to the other companies, either they invest and so compete on a somewhat equal footing or they go bust.

Exactly. Which means that through technological advancement the entire economy produces more goods and services for less money. This is a good thing, this kind of system separates the wheat from the chaff which is better for everyone. Why should inefficient practices continue?

Would you say that every garment manufacturer should go back to the old method where they got on top of a big table and cut fabric by hand? Why or why not? Should the companies be allowed to use sewing machines? If the company didn't use sewing machines they'd have to hire hundreds of people using sewing needles to produce the same amount of garments.

You're still missing the bigger picture here. Cheaper production means the company hires more sales people at close to or over 6 figures, it means they spend tens of thousands more on air travel to send sales guys to customers and trade shows. It means they lease more company cars for the sales guys. It means they hire more marketing people, more customer service reps, they spend more on materials.

Freeing up capital through streamlining production benefits the economy as a whole because it allows the company to spend money on things that can't be replaced by machines and are more conducive to growth. Yes, it is unfortunate for people to lose their jobs to outsourcing and automation, but in the big picture it benefits the economy as a whole. It doesn't even mean the end of blue collar work, there's big money in the trades these days and not enough people doing them.

Companies don't exist to provide jobs, think about the goods and services rather than jobs or dollars and it makes more sense. When companies can cut costs and provide more goods and services for cheaper it benefits everyone.

EDIT: Feel like I should clarify that the libertarian brigade here aren't in favour of the status quo either.
 
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Don't point to a recession to back that up. That's just silly.



I did say that a lot of people made that argument... you're quoting one of them. Also there have been articles like that, and people claiming that, for decades. It's not even that pertinent. Capitalism creates upward mobility unlike any other system.



Uh... mine for one. Probably yours. Define "easily". Easier than it is to hire you and pay you. Well then that has a lot to do with how difficult your government makes it to hire and pay you doesn't it? All of the jobs that exist right now exist because they were too difficult to replace by machines. That changes over time obviously, but it means there are a lot of them.



...and how the money is obtained, and whether there are any checks on how it is used, and whether there is any competition for it. So... a lot of difference.




:lol:

Just no. I'm sorry, do I have to respond to this? I need you to sit and think about that for 30 seconds and then tell me again I have to respond to it. If you do and you still think this, I'll respond sincerely without the use of smileys.

Just so that you're not sitting there thinking that you're right, I'll point out that my wife's job was created where none existed before it almost 2 years ago, and it pays 6 figures.




That article really helps me more than you. It redefines "capitalism" to mean "socialism", or some sort of cross between "socialism" and "crony capitalism" and then pokes holes.

Yeah okay. I got that arse about face. But I'm sure you know what I mean. No workers - high wages. Lots of workers - low wages.
America and the UK are both a cross between "socialism" and "crony capitalism".
Welfare's welfare. How can you argue that it matters where the money comes from. It all comes from the same place (just takes different routes to get there).
Capitalism is about profits, that's the problem with it, the planet seems to lose out in all this.

I'm out.
 
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