What could Rockstar Games of today teach Polyphony about designing a compelling game?
- Thread starter dabz343
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dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
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- dabz343
Interesting references for me to explore, thx.
Yes, current Cafe menus are not clicking. It's clumsy, transactional and lacks authenticity from a developer that has dedicated their whole existence to cars. You would think they could and should do something really special here.
I found this YouTuber that reflects more or less how I measure a game. I know for some, grinding and exploiting loopholes like the recent Abarth vs Tomahawks are all they want. But, this type of gameplay is not for me. Unlike passive formats like books, films, and music, modern video games possess interactivity. This feature to dictate how th gameplay unfolds is hugely entertaining and I'm wondering if we have yet to see the best incarnations.
Sidebar. I think some are getting too hung up on Rockstar's type of stories, storytelling style and story contents. No one is suggesting that GT titles include horse racing. It's amazing how some can not help but bring things down to their level.
I have been stating repeatedly, try think about how a musician from one genre listens and gets ideas/inspiration from other musicians from different genres. Transcribing design features directly from Rockstar's past titles into a GT game is not how one innovates. Remember, someone famously said once, good artists copy, great artists steal.
This video by Fizhy is quite long, but he summarizes his thoughts well in the first few minutes.
- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
So if not Rockstar's "type of stories, storytelling style and story content", what exactly do you want PD to "steal" and implement in GT?
While I don't think GT7's cafe menu is a particularly enriching experience, it's a bit of a reach to look at GTA or RDR for a solution when PD's done better in the past. As has other studios within the racing genre.
While I don't think GT7's cafe menu is a particularly enriching experience, it's a bit of a reach to look at GTA or RDR for a solution when PD's done better in the past. As has other studios within the racing genre.
- 2,541
- somewhere near Trial Mountain
- oldbusanubis
I'm not really sure what PD could steal from R*, what are we looking at here? Because R* have never been compelling unless you enjoy trimming your beard and being a "try-hard edgy" douche. Their (R*) games have been subpar and quite honesty the epitome of gaming trash.
They know how to make a good soundtrack but other than that? Eh.
They know how to make a good soundtrack but other than that? Eh.
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If you think GT7 in-game economy is rigged and frugal, can you imagine if PD followed the use of in-game credits like how it is done in GTA??? ...
For example, there's an online mission you can opt-in to earn $1M in-game money if you are successful ...
But you have to spend $2M on a Submarine to unlock the mission, and invest atleast an hour of your life, plus someone else from the public lobby to help you to pull it off ...
That's the R* way ...
For example, there's an online mission you can opt-in to earn $1M in-game money if you are successful ...
But you have to spend $2M on a Submarine to unlock the mission, and invest atleast an hour of your life, plus someone else from the public lobby to help you to pull it off ...
That's the R* way ...
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- 2,427
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
In all honesty, I think PD's SP outline for GT8 is hiding in plain sight, and it largely revolves around the further development and implementation of Sophy and 🌶 AI.
Couple quick pretenses for GT8 first though:
I think GT8's career should be dynamic to the player's capabilities and skills progression by an automatically scalable Sophy/normal AI at the most basic level. With options of starting your career at medium or hard difficulties if so chosen (with the option of changing the difficulty level at a whim if desired, as currently is the case). Give player's the ability to acquire cars via purchasing through credits earned, or by championships won. Weekly challenges as recently added and TT's are integral to game progression, as well as vehicle acquisition, with the weekly TT events awarding you said car from said event, upon completion with a lap time that is based off of a combined algorithm of online players, and the said "scalable Sophy" that has improved according to your skill progress via your licenses completion. Credit bonuses are awarded on top of reward cars to compensate for faster target times.
As you progress through your career and license acquisition, more events and tracks become available to you (nothing new here). There are ongoing single player Sophy/🌶 - based Manufacturer and Nation Cup seasons that are mirroring current IG multiplayer Manu/Nations seasons...... albeit one week behind, to encourage players to watch Gran Turismo's youtube channel that live stream's the top split time slots for said Manu/Nation cup races. The dynamic weather patterns will mimic that of the live-streamed top split lobby. This will incentivize SP players to tune into the stream, and figure out the strategy for their upcoming SP Manu/Nations race. All Manu/Nation SP races have a completion period requirement that lasts until the start of the next multiplayer season,; albeit one week behind said "Official Season".
*** Why PD hasn’t implemented previous GTWS events into the game's SP content, even with generic "custom race" AI is absolutely beyond me. I mean, the coding has already been done for the races in a different capacity. Geezus Christ PD!!
"Invite Only" cars are achieved via game progression. The most likely candidate would be competing in single player manufacturer cups that don't just include GR.3/4 cars, but where you have to pick a manufacturer to compete in various PP and Car-era-related series.
Full-on simulation mode that incorporates B-spec - where you have to pay for and finance a race team throughout a season involving both race cars and road cars. You also have have to pay for wear and tear on the cars as well as damages incurred during the race. All races revolve around a "race weekend" format. You can create your own series as well.
"Update Cars" can be acquired for free until the next update occurs - by way of completing a set of mission or "weekly events"- style tasks for each car. After the next update drops, the previous update's cars can no longer be acquired through IG missions; unless they can be acquired for free in game by way of previous mentioned series. All cars (other than invite-only cars) can be purchased from their respective dealership for credits or MTX's if the player chooses so, at any time.
All events within the game (with the exception of "limited time events", can be completed and repeated as stand alone events at any time - nothing new there
I don't think any kind of set-progression career, let alone a Rock*-esque story mode is what this game needs to thrive. Personally, I think its a great sandbox game as is, and its beyond me how people have trouble making their own fun within the game. I just think PD needs to figure out a way how to somehow fashion a sandbox-style game into a sandbox-style career mode - while at the same time preserving the quirkiness that Polyphony, and Gran Turismoi are known for.
Couple quick pretenses for GT8 first though:
- Make 1/4 of the cars (with some high end road and race cars) coupled with 1/4 of the tracks/layouts, available at launch to everyone -albeit strictly in a TT or quick race arcade mode. Give the most casual of casual gamer-types what they want. They'll have moved on regardless within a month anyways. Not to mention, they make up a large percentage of the people who buy this game.
- Most of the existing structure of previous games, and yes, even the menu books of this game are very good at teaching people about these cars, and car culture. The races themselves need to just be much more dynamic in nature.
I think GT8's career should be dynamic to the player's capabilities and skills progression by an automatically scalable Sophy/normal AI at the most basic level. With options of starting your career at medium or hard difficulties if so chosen (with the option of changing the difficulty level at a whim if desired, as currently is the case). Give player's the ability to acquire cars via purchasing through credits earned, or by championships won. Weekly challenges as recently added and TT's are integral to game progression, as well as vehicle acquisition, with the weekly TT events awarding you said car from said event, upon completion with a lap time that is based off of a combined algorithm of online players, and the said "scalable Sophy" that has improved according to your skill progress via your licenses completion. Credit bonuses are awarded on top of reward cars to compensate for faster target times.
As you progress through your career and license acquisition, more events and tracks become available to you (nothing new here). There are ongoing single player Sophy/🌶 - based Manufacturer and Nation Cup seasons that are mirroring current IG multiplayer Manu/Nations seasons...... albeit one week behind, to encourage players to watch Gran Turismo's youtube channel that live stream's the top split time slots for said Manu/Nation cup races. The dynamic weather patterns will mimic that of the live-streamed top split lobby. This will incentivize SP players to tune into the stream, and figure out the strategy for their upcoming SP Manu/Nations race. All Manu/Nation SP races have a completion period requirement that lasts until the start of the next multiplayer season,; albeit one week behind said "Official Season".
*** Why PD hasn’t implemented previous GTWS events into the game's SP content, even with generic "custom race" AI is absolutely beyond me. I mean, the coding has already been done for the races in a different capacity. Geezus Christ PD!!
"Invite Only" cars are achieved via game progression. The most likely candidate would be competing in single player manufacturer cups that don't just include GR.3/4 cars, but where you have to pick a manufacturer to compete in various PP and Car-era-related series.
Full-on simulation mode that incorporates B-spec - where you have to pay for and finance a race team throughout a season involving both race cars and road cars. You also have have to pay for wear and tear on the cars as well as damages incurred during the race. All races revolve around a "race weekend" format. You can create your own series as well.
"Update Cars" can be acquired for free until the next update occurs - by way of completing a set of mission or "weekly events"- style tasks for each car. After the next update drops, the previous update's cars can no longer be acquired through IG missions; unless they can be acquired for free in game by way of previous mentioned series. All cars (other than invite-only cars) can be purchased from their respective dealership for credits or MTX's if the player chooses so, at any time.
All events within the game (with the exception of "limited time events", can be completed and repeated as stand alone events at any time - nothing new there
I don't think any kind of set-progression career, let alone a Rock*-esque story mode is what this game needs to thrive. Personally, I think its a great sandbox game as is, and its beyond me how people have trouble making their own fun within the game. I just think PD needs to figure out a way how to somehow fashion a sandbox-style game into a sandbox-style career mode - while at the same time preserving the quirkiness that Polyphony, and Gran Turismoi are known for.
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- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
I suppose there is something to be said about the sense of player agency and interactivity in Rockstar's open worlds and how they account for just about everything a player might attempt (outside of something that's obviously game breaking).
Meanwhile, PD will consider any unintended interaction of game mechanics an "exploit" and quickly remove it. It's Kaz's way or the highway.
Meanwhile, PD will consider any unintended interaction of game mechanics an "exploit" and quickly remove it. It's Kaz's way or the highway.
- 376
- United States
“What can toxic edgy poop teach to lazy has-beens about designing a compelling game?”
No thanks.
No thanks.
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dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
Interesting...I would love for PD to start conceptualizing around these ideas. Thx for sharing.
Exactly...but how this insight translates to GT, I'm not sure...but if PD could give us their version, it would add to the GT franchise lore.
Thanks for playing.
- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
At the end of the day, I don't think it's a matter of what GT can learn from Rockstar. It's just fundamentally different design philosophies.
Both studios are well aware of what their players will do to test the limits of their games. One studio encourages out of the box solutions, the other releases emergency hotfixes to patch out those solutions.
That said, I do wonder what PD's take on an open world GT might look like...
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- 4,961
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
To answer the thread title, I'd say nothing. GTA and GT are two completely different games, with very different developers on opposite sides of the world, that happen to feature vehicles. The former offers tons of lawyer-friendly knock-offs and snarky commentary alluding to each car's real-world equivalent, whereas the latter is something much more sincere and genuine - and possibly even classy. That said, both GTA and GT are both technically-impressive franchises, whether it's a vast approximation of Miami in the upcoming GTA VI, or the latter's ability to pay intimate attention to detail, such as the rev chime on both Mazda RX-7 models.
You may as well ask what Gran Turismo can learn from Mario Kart.
You may as well ask what Gran Turismo can learn from Mario Kart.
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- 1,713
- Sydney
- snakebacon97
Since the November update I've had a few very fun 3-player splitscreen races, particularly Cappuccino/Beat/Mini at Tsukuba and three identical Tundras at the snow oval. The only thing the mode needs now is proper access to rental cars like GT4 had. Maybe giant bananas.An actually fun local splitscreen experience?
- 166
- Equalityland
The main problem IF we theorize from your premise; way too little single player content that is fun-easy-entertaining for many players and also because extreme difficulty level in GT7 compared to GT3/GT4. That is not a lack of story or narrative or anything similar. I have never come close to achieving silver in the GT7 lap time challenges, i.e. I tried for many hours and raced hundreds of laps on the Chaparral 2x Daytona test without getting silver. I also spent tens of hours to get gold on Trial Mountain CE. More options and choices for the offline single player campaign is the most important factor why the current GT7 experience is so controversial.
But if everything can be unlocked and modified, then we could see towards rpg->open world aspects even in GT7 or GT8.
- 4,545
- Australia
I think rockstar have a much better understanding of what works and what doesn't, I can't think of any element from previous games that are lacking in GTA5, besides the lack of a new game itself. Almost every element of each game improves on the previous one.
Whereas with PD their good ideas like shuffle racing get inexplicably abandoned for no reason, things that work in one game are broken in the next, the AI sucks badly enough that you start 30 seconds behind them like a 90's arcade-style game that the first GT blew out of the water, and the actual career layout doesn't actually improve on previous games, it just copies at best.
PD could learn a lot from other companies but they won't because Yamauchi isn't that interested and sees no reason to.
Whereas with PD their good ideas like shuffle racing get inexplicably abandoned for no reason, things that work in one game are broken in the next, the AI sucks badly enough that you start 30 seconds behind them like a 90's arcade-style game that the first GT blew out of the water, and the actual career layout doesn't actually improve on previous games, it just copies at best.
PD could learn a lot from other companies but they won't because Yamauchi isn't that interested and sees no reason to.
- 182
- United Kingdom
Interesting thread idea.
How about this?
Our main character has a love for cars and is a racer at heart and starts out in the game as a company exec for a large car manufacturer whose reputation is in a bit of crisis. They're seen as making worthy but dull cars, their buying demographic is getting older, they're stuck in a rut. A big corporate dinosaur. A bit like, I dunno, GM, maybe. Our character spends the first part of the game releasing cool sporty versions of cars and rescues the company and reboots its image. You make the decisions what huge engine to put in what tiny chassis and what mods to add to the coupe body.
Our hero gets promoted to VP but eventually gets frustrated with the lack of courage from the board and the slow pace of change, so leaves to start his own company.
Secure some funding from an up and coming government keen to create job opportunities in its capital city. Secure an exotic engine from some European manufacturer. Choose features for your new flagship from a wide range of exciting options, such as gullwing doors, perhaps.
The game needs to be challenging so at this point, production is falling behind schedule, deliveries are late and the government money is running out. You need funds to keep your company afloat so you travel to the USA and start dealing drugs. Unfortunately your first sell turns out to be an FBI sting and you get arrested.
No, scratch that. You pull out a machine gun and shoot your way out. This gives you a reputation in the drug underworld and you use that to stand up your distribution empire, shipping drugs moulded into fake car parts using a special hardening mousse that dissolves and releases the drugs when soaked in urine.
Optional alternative: Your character buys a fast food franchise and uses its distribution network to move the drugs.
Car personalisation options include bulletproof panels and glass (sold separately) and hidden, scentproof compartments for drug running.
There is lots of racing, much of it on street circuits and across borders. Sometimes the AI are in cop cars and as soon as they overtake you, you lose the race. $200 gets you out of jail, or roll a double.
I could get into that.
Parts of that may have been inspired by real events, fictional events, or other games not related to Rockstar nor PD.
How about this?
Our main character has a love for cars and is a racer at heart and starts out in the game as a company exec for a large car manufacturer whose reputation is in a bit of crisis. They're seen as making worthy but dull cars, their buying demographic is getting older, they're stuck in a rut. A big corporate dinosaur. A bit like, I dunno, GM, maybe. Our character spends the first part of the game releasing cool sporty versions of cars and rescues the company and reboots its image. You make the decisions what huge engine to put in what tiny chassis and what mods to add to the coupe body.
Our hero gets promoted to VP but eventually gets frustrated with the lack of courage from the board and the slow pace of change, so leaves to start his own company.
Secure some funding from an up and coming government keen to create job opportunities in its capital city. Secure an exotic engine from some European manufacturer. Choose features for your new flagship from a wide range of exciting options, such as gullwing doors, perhaps.
The game needs to be challenging so at this point, production is falling behind schedule, deliveries are late and the government money is running out. You need funds to keep your company afloat so you travel to the USA and start dealing drugs. Unfortunately your first sell turns out to be an FBI sting and you get arrested.
No, scratch that. You pull out a machine gun and shoot your way out. This gives you a reputation in the drug underworld and you use that to stand up your distribution empire, shipping drugs moulded into fake car parts using a special hardening mousse that dissolves and releases the drugs when soaked in urine.
Optional alternative: Your character buys a fast food franchise and uses its distribution network to move the drugs.
Car personalisation options include bulletproof panels and glass (sold separately) and hidden, scentproof compartments for drug running.
There is lots of racing, much of it on street circuits and across borders. Sometimes the AI are in cop cars and as soon as they overtake you, you lose the race. $200 gets you out of jail, or roll a double.
I could get into that.
Parts of that may have been inspired by real events, fictional events, or other games not related to Rockstar nor PD.
- 208
- New Jersey
- NikoTheHammer
I'll bite. How about this - observing how Rockstar has evolved the GTA franchise without chopping off any of what made it successful in the first place. At least in my eyes - every GTA has kept the excellent story mode and a massively deep open-world sandbox. Everything added was secondary to those elements - more complicated game mechanics, more silly side missions, entirely new game modes (GTA Online vs. Sport comparison here?), etc...
I think that's why we get so much misguided hatred toward things like VGTs, electric prototypes, the SEMA/Pebble Beach cars, photo scapes, Sport Mode / Career Mode (depending if you're a classic GT fan / online GT fan, respectively). Because everyone hates the "new" stuff that is perceived to be replacing their well-loved "old" stuff.
I still love GT and play it more than any other game. But I also kinda get some of the repeated gripes on GTPlanet. GT7's career isn't the same as GT4's. That becomes more frustrating when you experience bits and pieces of what you originally loved, even if those bits and pieces are assembled somewhat incoherently.
If GTA VI adds too much random stuff (or to online mode) at the expense of the story or the sandbox - it will not receive such a positive reception.
If GT8 adds more random stuff at the expense of either the career or sport modes, it will not receive such a positive reception.
I think that's why we get so much misguided hatred toward things like VGTs, electric prototypes, the SEMA/Pebble Beach cars, photo scapes, Sport Mode / Career Mode (depending if you're a classic GT fan / online GT fan, respectively). Because everyone hates the "new" stuff that is perceived to be replacing their well-loved "old" stuff.
I still love GT and play it more than any other game. But I also kinda get some of the repeated gripes on GTPlanet. GT7's career isn't the same as GT4's. That becomes more frustrating when you experience bits and pieces of what you originally loved, even if those bits and pieces are assembled somewhat incoherently.
If GTA VI adds too much random stuff (or to online mode) at the expense of the story or the sandbox - it will not receive such a positive reception.
If GT8 adds more random stuff at the expense of either the career or sport modes, it will not receive such a positive reception.
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- 166
- Equalityland
We can't make our own campaign mode, we can't change the parameters/options, GT7 has great potential but most factors except visuals and sound got squashed and squandered. Starting 40 seconds behind 15-20 cars and no option to start 1st? No option to race against a specific nr. of AI Sophy! All these changes takes a few hours to code, but Kaz wants to make GT7 more boring because reason?
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