What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from Forza in Creating the Next GT?

[Tenacious D]

I think you covered it nicely John. I've warmed up to the bodykits in Forza. They don't just look snazzy, they enhance the performance of your car. If you add those with the high performance mods like suspensions and transmission, then throw in the paint shop, you have the return of full racing conversion! But rather than getting a pre-existing car from some other racing team, you get to define how it looks yourself. Hopefully, for those of us who are artistically or imagination challenged, Polyphony could provide some templates so creating a good looking if basic racing scheme is easy.

I do like the additional factors Forza notes with the cars, things like Speed, Accelleration, Braking, Cornering. Those would come in handy for many races. For an oval, tight turning isn't important, top speed is. For a rally, the fastest car isn't as useful as a nimble, quick turning one. I'd like the option of having the game do the qualifying for me, as long as the racing was competititve. The bots in Forza are savage bastids that need to die. All you have to do to get them mad at you is pull in front of them at launch, or keep them from passing you. They even ram you from behind to use your car for a turn brake! Grr...

I like the depth of modelling, even to the sidewalls of tires. You get to adjust the air pressure too. Parts may be all uniform, but Microsoft licensed name brand companies. Now if the mod kits were individually modelled, that would rock.

That racing line feature is a lifesaver. I use it all the time with the supercars and GT cars because the view of the track is kind of odd. Plus it's a great teacher. Someday when I get fully dialled into Forza I'll turn it off all the time. I like Forza's menu music done by junkie XL too.

Oh, Happy Easter!

 

[JohnBM01]

I HATED Forza's music! The game REQUIRES you to have a custom soundtrack, otherwise, you'll be hearing rhythmless, grungy, typical American rock. Even I liked stuff like "Panama" and some of Daiki Kasho's stuff in GT4. But a plus for Forza over GT4- at least there's no tune that's country music.

Anyone else want to add their commentary while we speculate GT5?

 

[Tenacious D]

That's true, the Intro, Arcade Mode and in-race music is pretty sad. But I listen to the Career Mode menu tracks for an hour at a time. Those are original, and are superb.

 

[Teh_Loserer]

First off, I dogged Forza before I ever played it, then gave it an honest shot and agree. Both GT4 and Forza have their strong points. Here's what I think GT5 needs:

-More personalization, for sure. Paint/decals... As mentioned above, steer away from the rice, and go for the more tasteful body kits, etc.
-Better AI. For sure. Forza wasn't bad, nor is TOCA 3.
-Sony should DEFINITELY pay for the exotics. It's not like they can't afford it.
-Online play. I'm not really much for PGR, but the tournament going on right now on Xbox live is pretty heated, and I'll admit that I played till I was qualified at least for a time.
-BRING BACK THE CAR INFO!!! They have it on Tourist Trophy for all the bikes, and it WAS on GT before! I LOVED reading about the different cars. To this day, I still chuckle to myself at the description of the Espace F1.

Edit: I know not all this can be learned from Forza, but I can't help myself sometimes...

 

[Wolfe]

Such responses that won't count include the following: (1) Ferrari, Porsche, and any other exotic (2) "online play for freaking once!", (3) actually include damage, etc.

Well, excluding those things, there's very little that Forza does better than GT4...

Both games have shoddy physics, but Forza makes it a little bit easier to drift. Forza allows bodywork mods, paint color changes (it's incredibly stupid that PD hasn't done this yet), and engine swaps. Forza features a point-to-point hillclimb -- a way-too-wide, really poorly modelled one, but a hillclimb nonetheless. Forza's AI is ever-so-slightly better than GT4's -- they know that you're there, but won't think twice about pitting you and sending themselves off-course in the process.

...yeah, that's about it. As for things that GT4 does better than Forza...

GT4 may not be very realistic, but at least it isn't floaty and loose like Forza. GT4 may have "the real driving simulator" on the box, but Forza has the definition for "simulator" in one of the loading screens, a hilariously pointless telemetry screen, and overall just tries way too hard to make you think it's actually realistic. GT4 has more cars, and better choices for cars (Forza has BMW racecars but no roadcars. WTF?). GT4's real-life track models are much, much, much more accurate, and the fictional tracks are a lot better than Forza's fictional ones. The PS2 is inferior to the XBOX hardware-wise, but GT4 looks much, much more polished, and is much nicer to look at. Forza just looks like a fuzzy DirectX tech demo. GT4's music is much, much better than Forza's vomit-inducing, monotonous, lifeless, half-assed "rock" tracks.

...and finally, one important thing that PD and Microsoft could learn from Konami and the Live for Speed Dev. Team...

Calling your game a "sim" doesn't automatically make it realistic.

 

[Canadian Speed]

What GT could learn from other racing games... Not just Forza, as I wasn't a huge fan...

FORZA:

-Custom paint jobs
-Car line ups (more of what you want, less of what you don't)

TOCA 3

-Full Grids (Huge grids of up to 25 cars!!!)
-Views (3rd Person, Cockpit, Bumper, Hood)
-Probably some of the best AI (once you get into the harder levels)
-Proper match ups for races (No more 300HP advantages)
-Pit Boss giving split times over radio
-Oh... And damage. Done very well I might add, though better on XBox I find
-Weather conditions
-Point A to B rally races

ENTHUSIA

-Random Rally Generator (Great Feature!!)
-Up/Down Hill Races

Ridge Racer I

-Ability to load your own songs durring races (were talking PS1 RR)

 

[JohnBM01]

I wanted to mention GT4 and Forza... and you went all-out, Canadian Speed. I wouldn't say that the exclusion of some sort of paint shop deal is stupid. Something stupid is if there is an essential that many racing games should have, but isn't executed better in games. The car lineup deal is debatable in about what you want. In talking about that issue, here was an indirect quote I read when I was at a Wal-Mart once:

(indirect quote) "You have to appreciate a game that leaves Honda Civics where they belong and focus in on the wet dreams of a Road and Track magazine editor." -the XBOX360 magazine with reviews of almost every XBOX360 game so far; quote was in relation to Project Gotham Racing 3

Many people are happy with GT's collection, many others probably aren't so happy. Enthusia had a 1990s Chevy Astro van, but have I ever seen anyone complain about that? Not a chance. I probably complain too much about what cars people don't like in GT4 that other games have. It is still a debatable deal. You can't impress everyone, right? I'm just not expecting any gamers to want to race a Ferrari (granted it's in GT5) like that dope who wrecked that Ferrari Enzo out in Arizona or someplace. Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3 was one of the most underrated racing games on the PS2. It had the feature of a paint shop. It was also a very nice game to look at. Even my beautiful maiden, the Toyota 2000GT, looked amazing in this game. It was too bad there weren't enough aero options to make the car look even more beautiful. I think GT can benefit from a paint shop deal. The usual misconception is that a paint shop option points GT into a direction of "rice rockets." Wouldn't you want to paint up your car and even put your name on the windows? I normally don't give my last name out, but for example... my last name is Marine. John B. Marine is my name. An option to use a paint shop on some of the windows will have the American flag, and to the right my name displayed as "J. Marine."

I'm still curious about Forza's functional bodykits. I think that could be a possibility that some body kits would make for a reasonable compromise. Maybe the ultimate bodykit car is the Abflug Supra which looks beastly, but packs a lot of power. It's featured in Forza and even Tokyo Xtreme Racer Zero, as one of the 13 Devils or 12 Zodiacs has a driver who uses it as her weapon (I know the driver is a woman in the game). How would you all feel about functional bodykits?

By the way, just because a street car has a wing to it doesn't mean it's "ricer." A car already with a wing that looks worse with a purchsable wing is likely the FPV GT. It looked better without a purchaseable wing.

 

[Canadian Speed]

I wanted to mention GT4 and Forza... and you went all-out, Canadian Speed. I wouldn't say that the exclusion of some sort of paint shop deal is stupid. Something stupid is if there is an essential that many racing games should have, but isn't executed better in games.

Yeah, while I liked Forza, I wasn't a huge fan... so I added things that I like from all other racing games that I've recently played... With RR added in there just for ****s and giggles.

The "more of what you want and less of what you don't" for Forza was mainly directed at the Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo subject... more so then just plain car selection anyhow... Surely having your game make it into the Greatest Hits gender year after year would allow you to get the money to get what ever cars you possbily ever wanted to get... That's all I'm saying. And despite what some of you may think, I sure I'm not alone here, if you want to have the best sim, you've got to have the best cars...

I'm still curious about Forza's functional bodykits. I think that could be a possibility that some body kits would make for a reasonable compromise. How would you all feel about functional bodykits?

Huge oversight of the series so far, as far as I'm concerned. How is a wing in the back supposed to add DF in the front of the car? Not that ricer car kits would do this, but at least it would be something to make it look as though something happened to make the DF in the front occure... It works pretty well in Forza... I found most of the body kits also made it possible to make, at least look like other versions of the same car... Like the various Skyline and Subarus, from what I saw/tried... Though I haven't seen/played enough to make a 100% for sure comment on it, except that I like it. Add in a few of the DMT type fines to the fronts and backs of cars to add greater DF, and I'm sold on it.

By the way, just because a street car has a wing to it doesn't mean it's "ricer." A car already with a wing that looks worse with a purchsable wing is likely the FPV GT. It looked better without a purchaseable wing.

So true, the reason... You can't really get the right wings for it... or for many cars for that matter, the colour scheme for them is terrible as well. The fittings for them are often wrong as well... Try putting a wing on a TT Quatro... Looks horrible. Now look at the wing on the back of the Red Bull Quatro... Looks fine, why, beacuse of how it's attached to the car. I'd also like to be able to adjust the hight of the fittings that attach the wings to the cars... Some of them just stick out way too much, or just look plain stupid... On the same note, it's stupid to think that the same wing will give you the same benefits on every car... Wings are supposed to at least kind of go with certin body types, and this should be represented. Get the right wing, get a larger DF number to play with... Choose the wrong wing and get less then perfect effect on your car's DF.

As for the body paint thing... Check out the Forza thread on this site if you want to see what can be done to the cars in Forza with enough time and hard work in the paintshop... A lot of "not ricey" rides have been made. I'm sure you could make them, but if you want to, you should be able to do so... After all, that's what makes cars so cool... you can make em look how ever you want and give em your very own little look or feel... Make them original, and a wing on the back and a simple bunch of 100 rims is not enough for all the players of this game... I'd also like to be able to colour the rims as I please as well...

As a closing note, I think the people at Codemasters did the most to get people exactly what they wanted in a racing game, even if it isn't the nicest looking game out there(IMHO)... To the point that I highly suspect that some of the members here are likely people who work for Codemasters... There were just too many things that came from this and likely many other GT sites in their game... Just a thought... I wonder if PD does the same... Maybe they should start.

 

[JohnBM01]

Interesting perspectives, Canadian Speed.

What I've done is provide another message board's view of things you can get to modify your car in Forza. Dig this: { http://community.forzamotorsport.net/pitpass/gamefeatures/bodyparts.htm }. My only issue with Forza's modification system is the Rarity thing. How does Rarity help your car in Forza Motorsport? Or is it for bragging rights like GT4's A-Spec system? I've read that it kind of increases your race winnings, but that's about it. I think Polyphony Digital can follow the lead of (believe it or not) Genki, makers of the underrated Tokyo Xtreme Racer series. TXR Zero and TXR3 has body modifications that are actually pre-rendered and make a big difference in how you modify your car. Every modification to the car is there for the taking. I'd probably replace the "Rigidity Refresher Plan" with a functional roll cage. This goes back to me not liking the deal about cars just looking the same after modifications. Only rendered deal I can think of is when you adjust the ride height. You could actually colorize the roll cage in TXR3. I actually believe many parts can be rendered for cars. I think you should be able to see your car accept the different modifications from mufflers to Weight Reduction.

The power of painting up cars can be seen also at this gallery. Just click "Forza Custom Cars" here: { http://www.webquad.com/forza/component/option,com_ponygallery/Itemid,76/ }. It would be a stretch, but I'd like to imagine painting up cars on my PC, then maybe importing the graphics to parts of the car.

Ah! Found what I was looking for on rarity. Here goes:

"Rarity: Whenever you finish a race, you’ll receive a bonus to your winnings based on the rarity of your car. Buying more parts drives up your Rarity rating, so this is usually a long-term investment. If you decide to sell one of your cars online, a higher Rarity also drives up the price. This isn’t an essential stat, but when you’re spending credits on parts, a higher Rarity rating is an added bonus." - from http://community.forzamotorsport.net/pitpass/garage/easy_upgrades.htm

Would Rarity make a difference in GT5? If not, you can carry on what PD can learn from Forza in making GT5.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Would Rarity make a difference in GT5? If not, you can carry on what PD can learn from Forza in making GT5.

Think of rarity as a "Sponcorship Bonus". If you have a killer car, that sports all of HKS or Mines stuff, they'll shell out a bit more cash for boosting their products, as well as possibly give you newer or rarer stuff for your car to further show off their products... I like it, I had already mentioned this kind of idea in another thread in here, not realizing that Forza already had this kind of a set up... At any rate, I love the idea, always have. Like I had said in the past, if I've got my car fully done up in TDR parts, to the degree at some of the cars I have are done up, the company would be giving me money (also kind of goes hand in hand with decals as well, you should be albe to show what sponcors you have). It's a step in the right dirrection...

 

[JohnBM01]

Well if that's true, then there are all sorts of things to contribute to Rarity. I did some reading online about Rarity, and stuff like tinting windows and adding body kits only increases Rarity. However, it could disqualify your entry into certain championships and races. I normally want to believe that most exotic cars and supeerexotics are already rare, so modding one up to being more than rare is pretty much the best you can do in the Rarity department. Some of you people who like bodykits and paint-up jobs may appreciate this statement:

"Pray to God of Bomex... I hope your speed over the Rival -Bomex saying

I can only imagine this in GT5. Imagine all the sport compact tuners making a little more paper (ghetto/slang term for "money") after doing well in a race. A 1999 Celica with Trial parts would pick up a good sum of extra money, about as much as a 2004 Civic Type R owner who fitted the finest Spoon Sports parts on his/her car. Now, what if (probably isn't possible) a car was modded with some parts from one company, then parts from antoher company? Like, what if a 1998 Toyota Supra had an Original Turbo Kit from Trial, and then HKS Original Suspension parts? Is it half-Trial, half-HKS? Or is it about two companies giving you more pay for representing more than one company? And I will think of this as mini-sponsorship. It's as close to sponsorship without having to earn anything. You had to win sponsored championships in Sega GT to win sponsors to your racing efforts. I got many, if not all sponsors (I think there are 13 total in that game ranging from Outlaw fuel additives (based in Houston ^_^) to Hertz Rental Cars) in Sega GT.

I'm going to further review Forza's body kit lineup and what they have to offer.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Again, I'm not 100% sure on it for Forza...

However, were they to do that in the GT series... They could simply make it work like this... If you have entry level parts from one company, you only get so much. If you get mid range parts, a bit more and so on so on... If your car is company exclusive, the companies give you an "exclusive" bonus and or access to certain parts reserved for exclusive car owners...👍

 

[Badsight]

with the PS2 , Polyphony Development are hardware bound

GT4 is probably the best that the PS2 can deliver & the fact that GT4 is a near match for Forza should say a lot for the coding abilities of PD employees

im sure they will have GT5 very optimised for the PS3 come 2007

Forza 2 is said to be released in nov or dec this year in time for christmas - should also be worth buying

 

[Badsight]

i see PGR3 & TRD3 also mentioned

both games have fantastic parts to them as well (the Ring in PGR3 is the best version yet made for any racing game)

but really , in the last 2 years only one game has been the ultimate

G.T.R for the PC - its the pinnacle of realisim , the X360 & the PS3 have the power to run this level of programming - this level is what the "hardcore" sim fans should be using as the reference guide

 

[SavageEvil]

with the PS2 , Polyphony Development are hardware bound

GT4 is probably the best that the PS2 can deliver & the fact that GT4 is a near match for Forza should say a lot for the coding abilities of PD employees

im sure they will have GT5 very optimised for the PS3 come 2007

Forza 2 is said to be released in nov or dec this year in time for christmas - should also be worth buying

GT4 a match for Forza, GT4's visual presentation absolutely hammers Forza's, from the accuracy of the vehicle models, to the accuracy of real life stages, it's visual style and flair, make Forza's look like a lame duck.

Forza 2 will only be worth buying if the visual style is upped to something more akin to TV style presentation, hopefully more attention is directed to drivers overall sense of what's happening, visual and audio cues are a must.

see PGR3 & TRD3 also mentioned

both games have fantastic parts to them as well (the Ring in PGR3 is the best version yet made for any racing game)...

Is that a quoted statement? Last I heard GT4 had the most accurately detailed Nürburgring of any driving game. Anyone have a video of the Nür in PGR3, I would like to see it, if you please.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well... as for Forza's graphics, they're a strange thing indeed.

I have to admit that when I first saw them I kind of shrugged them off. They looked terribly CG, like a very good video game. But the more I played Forza, the more they impressed me. I have no clue why, but somehow little details became increasingly apparent to me that made Forza's graphics look much more realistic. Not quite as real looking as GT4, but close.

The cars are plainer. GT4's cars are much more detailed. However Forza's cars are almost as good. There is one thing however that clobbers the sense of realism in Forza, and that's the appallingly slow environment reflections. They seem to run as slow as six frames per second sometimes. The 30fps second framerate also hurts it.

I do think that if Forza ran as smoothly as GT4, the sense of realism would be very close.

 

[SavageEvil]

PD can learn some things from Forza:
1. add a paintshop, seems illogical, but it's a necessity
2. deeper vehicle customization, tires pressures, wheel weights
3. larger fields
4. fuller sounds, that might be a fault of the PS2


Other things than need to be added include and not limited to, deeper engine customizing, ability to adjust fuel levels before a race, road debris, impacts that can disable your vehicle(people may whine but 8 times out of 10 the accident was your fault), allow for wear and tear on parts, brake failure, debris on windshield, volumetric smoke( a must for when there are spinouts and white smoke is billowing, and for when you drive off road). Also add a persona to the game, give you a driver or a team of drivers who you have to pay and maintain. No more aimless racing only, keep the normal GT mode and add and Optional mode where you take a driver through a career, keep the story telling to a bare minimum, also have AI drivers with names and styles, make em up I don't care.

 

[Tenacious D]

Err... how is a paint shop illogical?

Paint shops in other games allow you to at least pick the color you want, and I don't know anyone who thought it was a bad idea.

Plus, if you want to have your own racing team, which many of us want, or even your own unique racing identity, you'll need custom graphics. This means including a paint shop. And you did say it was a necessity.

But excellent ideas.

 

[Badsight]

Is that a quoted statement? Last I heard GT4 had the most accurately detailed Nürburgring of any driving game. Anyone have a video of the Nür in PGR3, I would like to see it, if you please.

well what you heard last is now updated by me . the PGR3 version of the Ring is the new "best" - by far

Forza also shows what more processing power can do for graphic's over GT4 - i expect GT5 to be stunning not just in the car models but also in the enviroment like what the X360 racing games are showing

 

[JohnBM01]

But Badsight... would you agree that with the little power the PS2 had vs. the XBOX, woud you agree that the graphic quality is pretty impressive regardless of its power? Don't count out the PS3 in having limited or lackluster performance in graphics, though. We may know what PD has to offer come E3 or at this year's Tokyo Game Show. Just don't count out PD or think they're going to be lazy in this department.

 

[SavageEvil]

well what you heard last is now updated by me . the PGR3 version of the Ring is the new "best" - by far

Forza also shows what more processing power can do for graphic's over GT4 - i expect GT5 to be stunning not just in the car models but also in the enviroment like what the X360 racing games are showing

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the extra processing power in the good ole Xbox. Maybe in the amount of polys on cars, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll look better. It does have awesome light sourcing, richer engine sounds, a better tire physics model, but the atmosphere still doesn't feel like the cars are part of the environment, and you get that disjointed feeling. The attention to detail is higher in GT4, on every course, check out Autumn Ring, drive of the leaves and watch them whip into the air, tear down le Sarthe and witness the French Air Force fly by. GT4 courses aren't very populated, but you don't get that eerie lifeless feeling that Forza throws at you.

Where is that update of yours quoted? Your word isn't valued very high on something like that, give me some sources, I don't doubt that PRG3 can undoubtedly have the best version of the Nür, but coming from a fellow poster, I would take that with and ocean's worth of salt.

 

[Badsight]

sorry but the enviroments in Forza are much more detailed than in GT4 , the ring in Forza is too wide (track surface) & thats the thing that makes GT4's version more realistic - visually its sparsely populated & it probably has to be

the Ring in Forza is one of the better example's but you can see in every single track

as for PGR3's version of the Ring - you only need to see it in action once to know , theres no competition . should be interesting to see what Forza 2 will be like

as far as the PS3 is concerned , we are going to have to see the thing running , no game developer ive seen quoted like's parallel processing CPU set-ups that the X360 has , & the PS3 like the PS2 is worse by far . blu-ray is going to go down as the most eaisly damadged optical media in history - sure the capacity is fantastic , dont see the discs lasting a 10th the time vanilla CD's do tho

 

[Tenacious D]

Yiou aren't keeping up with developments in optical media, badsight. The early Blu-Ray discs were used in caddies while Sony worked on getting the media layer burn and laser tuning right, then they perfected a protective coating.

Check this out.

 

[SavageEvil]

This guy badsight, listen man like I said before, I don't want your opinion, give me links to back up your claims. Forza's rendition of the Nür is waay off, GT4's version is kind of short, but it's definately better than the one in Forza. There are videos on the web comparing GT4 Nür to real life, heck there is a driving guide on this same site that you can actually follow the braking points given and use them in GT4, they don't even work in Forza.

As i said before GT4 is sparse, but trackside detail on the Nür and Circuit de la Sarthe is amazing, the Nür pretty much is a lonely course, but the visuals were the best the PS2 could without chugging, no two ways about it GT4's visual presentation craps all over Forza's.

Anyone got a PGR3 video of the Nür, I want to see it in action, because I haven't got a X360 as yet, no reason to, nuthin on it to play that I'm interested in. Give me a link or something ok.

 

[Tenacious D]

There is something about the Forza version of the Ring I like, and that it's different enough that it's almost a new track, while still beuing familiar enough that you can usually chug along it at a pretty good clip. It may not be as accurate in layout, with that extra fifth of a mile or so, but it is a really nice course. It is way too smooth though, all the Forza tracks are very polished.

And that is one thing about badsight, he does bring some.... interesting viewpoints to the board.

 

[wpg.gts]

There are two things I would love to see Gran Turismo 5 improve upon.

1. Sound: There is nothing like the sound of a big throaty v8 going through the gears. Yet, in gt4 it sounds like the exhaust is stuffed with furry kittens. Sounds like crap and makes me sad.

2. SMOKE!!!! To me, the most satisfying thing is doing a big smoky burnout. Now in this game you can do a burnout, but hardly any smoke. They dont have put so much that you cant see for a couple minutes, but it takes the fun out of it. I find that the greatness of games are in the details.

 

[Kent]

Paint shop for sure. 👍

However, the biggest lesson to PD should be that there is no substitute for the big name manufacturers like Ferrari and Lamborgini.
Sure it costs a ton of money and creates tons of trouble for the lawyers but who cares? We all want the big Italians in our games!!! (not to mention a certain German company simply for the sake of having a true "GT3"). 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

Ya know? What he said! And I'm not jumping on the bandwagon because he's a big butch cyber cop with a gun aimed at me.

Seriously, driving a Ferrari in Forza is a serious thrill. I LOVE those cars. The Porsche's unfortunately are too Need For Speed and are just wacky. But the Big Three really need to be in GT5. This is Polyphony's big statement and should shut up all the naysayers in a big way. Accurate driving and racing, an even bigger selection of cars, racing modification, body kits and a deep, powerful paint shop are in order.

 

[Canadian Speed]

The big three, there are so many really cool cars that they're missing... As a loyal fan, as many of you are, we deserve to have the "best" cars possible... I mean really, come on. We've made virtualy every GT game a greatest hits... You can't tell me they aren't loaded and can't afford it... If Forza, a relatively unknown driving game, was able to give their fans a paintshop and the cars people were crying for all this time, why can't an established franchise like this do it? Copywrite... Come on, I'm over that, if you shell out enough money, you can get the rights to anything you want...

If I were Microsoft (Now this is evil) I'd put Forza out on PS3 for two or so years. Giving people exactly what they wanted. Then once it has become and established franchise on the PS3, make it exclusive for the next gen XBox of it's day, stealing the tons of loyal racing fans that Sony has built up for all these years... I know what you're thinking "a little too "Art of War"" for many people, but it's about giving the people what they really want in the end...

 

[Tenacious D]

Well to be fair, the XBox does have a hard drive, which you really need to have any kind of serious paint shop.

I know I keep following people around and "dittoing" what they said on the subject, but... what he said.

This is Polyphony's landmark statement on the monumentally capable PS3. Surely some special cars are in order here. And a comprehensive paint shop and body kits for racing modification are seriously called for.

Just as an aside, I had my Forza drivatar B-Spec Bob, a bot I trained, enter a high performance endurance race in a Ferrari F355 Challenge, and he's frighteningly good so of course he won. The race continues on after it's finished like it does in GT2. I've been letting it run for quite a while now, and Bob is actually fighting with the other 355 Challenge, trying to lap him, and it's quite hilarious to watch the A.I. bot banging Bob's 355 around to keep him at bay! That's another thing I'd like to see return in GT5, the race continuing on after it's over, and hopefully, some fun antics like this.