What is an Acceptable BoP to You, and Why?

[Pigems]

Simple question, what to you constitutes an acceptable BoP for a group of cars(Between the Fastest and Slowest Car)?

0s//Lap
.2s/Lap
.5s/Lap
1.0s/Lap
1.5s/Lap
> 1.5s/Lap

And now the big question. Why are you willing to accept that gap in time?

I’ve been told that cars not being completely equal is not realistic(I don’t watch racing), or not how real racing is. That there are power cars and handling cars in real racing, which is fine. But that leads me to this question, what is the intended purpose of real racing series BoP’ing the cars in a series? Is it to get them as close as possible(knowing they don’t have full control over each team/car)? Or just to get them close enough for it to be called a race?

Thanks for your time, have a great day!

 

[Groundfish]

Hmmmm
There’s tons more variables irl. Racing is all about technically finding that edge.
Faster cars win races.
I think online though so much depends on driver. It’s hard to say this car is .2 faster imo except in a drag race.
Braking could be tested and verified.
It’s a very interesting thing to ponder.
I don’t know how to make all cars run equal laptimes at all tracks but I voted for that because theoretically it’s ideal.
Imo gr3 has a really good bop right now, compared to all other classes.
All the others need a lot of work.
They are really making me angry about ff in gr4.
Overall my take is I’d like all cars equal, but that’s a hard thing with a lot of variables plus they never are in reality either.

 

[Famine]

Simple question, what to you constitutes an acceptable BoP for a group of cars?

0s//Lap
.2s/Lap
.5s/Lap
1.0s/Lap
1.5s/Lap
> 1.5s/Lap

And now the big question. Why are you willing to accept that gap in time?

I’ve been told that cars not being completely equal is not realistic(I don’t watch racing), or not how real racing is. That there are power cars and handling cars in real racing, which is fine. But that leads me to this question, what is the intended purpose of real racing series BoP’ing the cars in a series? Is it to get them as close as possible(knowing they don’t have full control over each team/car)? Or just to get them close enough for it to be called a race?

Thanks for your time, have a great day!

BOP calculations are done to get cars to the end of a race at the same time, not a lap. Making cars equal over a lap when one can go three times further on a tank of fuel or set of tyres than the other makes for a poor race - and the longer the race, the poorer it gets. It also gets far more difficult, because eking out an extra lap here and there (which is always a possibility) can save a pit stop - which at Le Mans equates to a minute saved from the roughly half an hour each car spends in the pits over the race.

Of course if there's no pit stops in that race, then lap time is king.

 

[Pigems]

Hmmmm
There’s tons more variables irl. Racing is all about technically finding that edge.
Faster cars win races.
I think online though so much depends on driver. It’s hard to say this car is .2 faster imo except in a drag race.
Braking could be tested and verified.
It’s a very interesting thing to ponder.
I don’t know how to make all cars run equal laptimes at all tracks but I voted for that because theoretically it’s ideal.
Imo gr3 has a really good bop right now, compared to all other classes.
All the others need a lot of work.
They are really making me angry about ff in gr4.
Overall my take is I’d like all cars equal, but that’s a hard thing with a lot of variables plus they never are in reality either.

I doubt even in GT that anyone could get them 100% equal at all tracks, but for the purpose of the excessive let’s say Equal means >.1 variance from fastest to slowest car, at any track, at the pointy end of the speed spectrum.

It would have be a per track BoP, to have any hope of working.

 

[Groundfish]

It would have be a per track BoP, to have any hope of working.

Yes.
I think too doing that would mean setup changes lol.
Irl you might have a qual setup that’s fast over one lap but shreds tires in race.
I think in GTS they might be able to do bop per track just by nerfing the meta a little with weight or power reduction.
This really only becomes a bigger issue the more seriously you play and higher ranked you are imo.
Good thread.
Even in a game, the number of variables is incredibly large.

 

[Pigems]

BOP calculations are done to get cars to the end of a race at the same time, not a lap. Making cars equal over a lap when one can go three times further on a tank of fuel or set of tyres than the other makes for a poor race - and the longer the race, the poorer it gets. It also gets far more difficult, because eking out an extra lap here and there (which is always a possibility) can save a pit stop - which at Le Mans equates to a minute saved from the roughly half an hour each car spends in the pits over the race.

Of course if there's no pit stops in that race, then lap time is king.

I hadn’t really thought much about full race time, that makes sense for sure.

But, 66% of Daily Races have no fuel or tire wear, which breaks the Single Group BoP. Do you think having the cars BoP’d Per Track would give better overall results through all of the online races in the game, vs a single Group BoP for everything?

Edit: Tire wear differences can be helped by changing the stock setups too I’d imagine, not sure by how much though.

Not sure how you fix the fuel differences other than lower multipliers, making fuel not matter.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

An acceptable BOP is where all FR cars are 10 seconds slower.

It seems fuel conservation hasn't been an issue for a long time now and pit stops have been mandatory. There's still the disparity in tire wear between wheel and pad users, can't bop for that.

 

[Groundfish]

If I look at the q. To me a good BOP means that there’s multiple viable cars to use on any given track that can win at any level and also a good BOP means I see varied grids.
Like race B right now I have not seen a single FR in any top split lobby.
No MR either.
That shows what trash the gr4 BOP is imo.
It’s ridiculous that a Mcclaren which held track record for a while is useless against a VW Scirroco.
lol come on man!

EDIT
AND WHY ARE WE CALLING A GTI A SCIROCCO ANYWAYS?!

Is it because DR2 has the best GTI in sim racing?

 

[elston87]

An acceptable BoP would be one where any car has a chance of winning the race so long as the driver can fully utilize its strengths and weaknesses. No meta should exist. Any character in a fighting game should be able to win the match if the player makes the best of that character's abilities and skills instead of everyone choosing the "meta" fighter. Any firearm in a shooting game should be able to win the match if the player utilizes its characteristics correctly instead of everyone choosing the "meta" gun. Any custom-made team in a sports game should be evenly dispersed across statistics and skillsets instead of filling their teams with the same "meta" players all the time that excel above any other player. All variables within the game should be tuned and balanced to the point that any combination of variables can be used to win the game so long as the player learns how to use them within means, instead of some combinations outclassing others or being outright useless.

For Gran Turismo Sport, I should be able to select any car in, say, Gr.4, and have an equal chance of winning the race compared to all of the other cars in the class. That's the whole purpose of what BoP is for, right? Balancing the performance so that all cars in the class are equally competitive? Instead, we have the following:

• Normal car classes have absolutely no balance at all; pickup trucks have no chance of competing in any NXXX class, the KTM X-Bow can be nerfed with power reduction and weight ballast to kingdom come but will still outshine its competitors most of the time, the slowest cars in the game like the Fiat 500 and the Volkswagens get lumped into N100 instead of their own class like N50, and certain cars, like the Ferrari F50, should not be allowed to enter certain car classes such as N300 as they're still too strong despite the "balance of performance"
• Gr.4 is a mess; FF cars rule the class in every way except for top speed, and then you have the Renault Megane Trophy, which isn't even a GT4 car to begin with
• Gr.3 is mostly balanced with a few outliers, such as the McLaren F1 GTR having a slight advantage in terms of top speed on straights
• Gr.2 has yesteryear SUPER GT competitors in the class, which despite their gains with the BoP, typically don't stand a chance in most cases against the newer SUPER GT cars that introduced the class into the game in the first place
• Gr.1 is also kind of a mess, where hybrid hypercars rule the class, and the meta is dispersed depending on the situation, such as using the Audi R18 for qualifying and then using the Toyota TS050 for racing; other cars in the class get their horsepower neutered with the BoP and end up biting the dust eventually with the fuel-saving advantage that the hybrids have, only being able to shine on certain courses such as La Sarthe

Outside of Gr.3, there is a lack of variety in the grids in most online races as most players will typically select whatever the "meta" car is as the situation calls for it. Whatever happened to Performance Points? Why did they disappear from the game? They were present since GT4, 5, 6, and were even seen in 2016 builds of GT Sport. They have since reappeared in GT7 but that doesn't help GT Sport's case.

 

[O604]

A big difference between game BoP and IRL BoP is the number of cars to take data from.

In real life you have a few cars per race per team. Results will take a while to show. In Sports Mode you have thousands. So results become pretty clear fairly quickly. In real life it's an X factor. That's what makes it work. In Sports Mode it's clearly an advantage or disadvantage.

I don't like the way it's done in Gr.4. I'd much rather have a system where each player buys a stock car and then tunes/detunes it to regulation. That way we can appreciate the car in it's true form. Instead just driving a bunch of "balanced" cars faster than a Veyron.

 

[das89ca]

In my view, an acceptable BOP is between 0.5-1s per lap, with the mention that you have to balance the circuits over the season in order to give fighting chances to all Manufacturers.

The problem with GTS BOP comes also from the type of races - as we have short races of 20-30 minutes with multipliers for tyre and fuel usage. This is amplifying whatever small differences are between cars and make them really big. We had last year in our private league, a team competition - 15 drivers, 5 Gr3 cars, 3 drivers per team. The chosen ones were Viper, Corvette, Nissan GT-R, AMG GT3 and Aston Martin Vantage. The tracks were balanced, we had 10 tracks with handling and power tracks. The Viper and Corvettes wiped the floor with us because with a 5x/5x multiplier a 4-5% difference in fuel usage which would be manageable in normal race conditions in a longer race now was transformer by the multiplier to a 20% difference between Viper and Aston Martin for example. Just as an example, in the race at Monza I was able to run about 7 laps with a full tank in the Aston(with a conservative style of driving) and the winner of the championship was managing 9-10 laps with a more aggressive style. We had pretty much similar lap times but he won the race with about 20s lead on me(finished the race in P5) just with the time gained in the pits/and tyre advantage in the longer stints.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

AND WHY ARE WE CALLING A GTI A SCIROCCO ANYWAYS?!

Because it is a Scirocco, has a different body.

 

[Groundfish]

Because it is a Scirocco, has a different body.

This is the only scirocco imo.

 

[Raptor013]

The main point of BoP is to close the gap between the different types of cars in how they make their lap speed.

For example in Gr. 4 a Jaguar F-type would have superior top speed to a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, however as its faster and heavier it takes longer to slow it down for the tight corners (T1 at Fuji as an example).

The Lancer on the other hand is stronger under brakes and acceleration (at least in the initial stages), meaning that it could out brake the Jaguar and either dive underneath the claim the apex of the corner, or pull alongside and drive around the outside to attempt to claim the racing line on exit or set up a pass at the next corner by having the inside line.

Now if you either add more power to the Jaguar or more weight to the Mitsubishi you take away the potential for the Lancer to make a pass (hence the late dirty dive bombs start to come out).

However if you switch that adjustment, it makes it easier for the Lancer to stay in touch on the long straights and set up those passing chances.

Now to be honest they are never going to get the BoP right every time. Some cars are simply too strong on certain tracks (the Lancer and WRX at Tsukuba for example) no matter what you do.

I'd prefer it if they left the BoP to 100% for every car. This way no one can whinge that they got beaten by an Audi TT Cup at Bathurst when they where in a Ferrari. You have 3 options when that happens, 1; Drive the Audi instead, 2; learn to maximize the potential of your chosen car, or 3; stop playing if you can't handle being beaten.

 

[Veinz]

I think a realistic expectation would be around a second, but it depends on how fast the cars are and what track it is too. The cars will never be equal across all tracks.

 

[Pigems]

I think a realistic expectation would be around a second, but it depends on how fast the cars are and what track it is too. The cars will never be equal across all tracks.

If the did BoP per track it could be very close at all tracks though.


Edit: Do real race teams skip races that their cars suck at? Seems silly to spend tens of thousands of dollars for travel and everything else, just to go finish DFL.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Edit: Do real race teams skip races that their cars suck at? Seems silly to spend tens of thousands of dollars for travel and everything else, just to go finish DFL.

They bop per track, so usually they run all the races they can. Sometimes a team can't make it to a certain race, maybe they can't afford the flyouts, maybe they aren't ready.

 

[Groundfish]

Edit: Do real race teams skip races that their cars suck at? Seems silly to spend tens of thousands of dollars for travel and everything else, just to go finish DFL.

 

[Pigems]

They bop per track, so usually they run all the races they can. Sometimes a team can't make it to a certain race, maybe they can't afford the flyouts, maybe they aren't ready.

So for the people who think it’s realistic to not have the cars all even. Why are they not wanting the realism of BoP per track too then? That’s confusing.

View attachment 1010701

I don’t follow, sorry.

 

[Groundfish]

Haas F1 tends to be DFL.
Here’s a Haas driver a lap down idiotically blocking a Red Bull driver fighting towards the front.


Mercedes always wins F1. Their cars are far superior. The problems in F1 are similar to your OP, dirty air bop etc

 

[daan]

Haas F1 tends to be DFL.
Here’s a Haas driver a lap down idiotically blocking a Red Bull driver fighting towards the front.


Mercedes always wins F1. Their cars are far superior. The problems in F1 are similar to your OP, dirty air bop etc

There is absolutely zero BOP in F1 and as such has no bearing on anything in this GTS/BOP thread.

 

[Groundfish]

Mercedes F1 is the FF in gr4, no?

 

[Norrin Radd]

Hit the biggest one although it's not really how I feel.
Lap time is only one element, you have fuel usage and tyre wear to consider too, BOP is intended to make cars close enough overall to be competitive and make for interesting races. If BOP was done right then there should be no cars that do well everywhere under all settings. This unfortunately can only work for race C and FIA as race A and B don't have tyre wear or fuel usage so you end up with certain cars being really good no matter what the race is. Race A should therefore always be one model and B should have tyre wear even if the wear will never make a pit stop needed, C should also need fuel far more often or at least the need for saving.

 

[AwfulDriver]

In motorsport there is usually two competitions occurring during a race, one between engineers and the other between drivers. Since GT Sport doesn't focus on the engineering aspect of racing, the BOP should be implemented to assure any driver can jump into any car and have an opportunity to compete.

Since it's a game and not real life, I assume their is no real way to innovate the engineering of a car in-game and in reality people would find a way to game/hack the engineering-modding aspect of the game and take advantage of any issue with the simulations logic. Plus, the game becomes less accessible to new/casual players if the meta was mixed with a complex modding system. I'll be honest, I would rather pick a car and drive than have to tinker with the engineering settings before every race to feel confident I have a fair chance to win - I find modding fun but it does take a lot of time to setup and test.

So, having an 0-.2s BOP difference would be theoretically ideal. I assume this is hard to accurately measure without taking a track into consideration. So, I understand the idea of BOP per track but I don't think the difference would be much to care about and the FIA doesn't use BOP on a per track basis either (not 100% sure). Most people are not pushing the car to the limit in where the GT Sport BOP is being challenged. I assume only top 2% can actually test the limits of the BOP system.

My issues with BOP is that it takes the soul out of the car. The personality differences between cars becomes less pronounced and it dulls the experience a little for me. I have more fun driving without the BOP applied than when I do. So seeing more non-bop races would be interesting to me. Also, it's hard to understand the reason for changes in BOP over time... and the fact that GT has partnerships with Toyota and Mazda makes me slightly suspicious of how fair their BOP system really is. Maybe being more transparent with BOP changes/logic would help with this.

 

[Veinz]

If the did BoP per track it could be very close at all tracks though.


Edit: Do real race teams skip races that their cars suck at? Seems silly to spend tens of thousands of dollars for travel and everything else, just to go finish DFL.

I don’t think BOP for each track (and layout) is a realistic expectation at all tbh. It would just be a never ending battle for the developers.

For the second part, it really depends on the series. I mostly watch Indycar and F1, in Indy there are teams who only do certain races. In F1 a team has to commit to the full season or they get fined.

I don’t watch a whole lot of GT or Touring cars but IIRC series that have BOP do technically adjust it for every track, but it’s on a per-race basis. It’s based on your performance in the previous race, so even if you win in a mediocre car, you are still at risk of getting ballast added for the next race.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I don’t think BOP for each track (and layout) is a realistic expectation at all tbh. It would just be a never ending battle for the developers.

For the second part, it really depends on the series. I mostly watch Indycar and F1, in Indy there are teams who only do certain races. In F1 a team has to commit to the full season or they get fined.

I don’t watch a whole lot of GT or Touring cars but IIRC series that have BOP do technically adjust it for every track, but it’s on a per-race basis. It’s based on your performance in the previous race, so even if you win in a mediocre car, you are still at risk of getting ballast added for the next race.

Also a BOP that made 2very car even on every track would create a lot of desperation and dangerous racing

 

[05XR8]

It's already dangerous with the closing speed the RCZ have on anyone not driving that car.

 

[triebs2]

I think a good BOP balance for GTS has to be aimed at FIA and daily race C. Primarily at FIA. And measured by the full FIA season. And the measure should be... handling cars all finish close to each other at the top in a handling track race, power cars all finish at the top and close at Monza, and the do everything ok cars always perform pretty well but not exceptional everywhere, etc. for fuel savers and so on.
If there is a car that stinks in all circumstances then it needs an adjustment.
Also no offense to some herculean efforts to analyze bop in the past, but the true measure of a good BoP has to be done by only the most consistent, top class drivers. The fact that I suck in a Ferrari but suck a little less in a Subaru is meaningless. But if none of the top drivers can eek a top 5 finish in a high dr race out of a car on any type of track then it probably needs an adjustment.

 

[Groundfish]

Gr 4 BOP is broken.
I can’t believe it.
In my last race 14 of 16 were VW ff there was one RCZ and me, in the Mustang.
This was the highest NA room with 09.4 on pole and me starting 8th at 10.4.
The RCZ shoved me.
I know why, he thinks no FR can possibly beat his RCZ.
The BOP is SO broken in gr4 it CAUSES dirty driving,
How is this even possible?
How many GR4 races has sport mode run?
How many?
PD can’t figure out by now that nothing stands a chance in the class except front wheel drive cars?
It’s honestly pathetic in gr4 how unfair it is.
Myself I am 2 seconds back in the Corvette.
I spent time in it today trying! UN USABLE
It CANNOT compete. Gr4 Bop is BROKEN

This was my last race, maybe my last ever in gr4...

 

[AfraidRacer]

Honestly, I really don't understand it. Either use the best car like everyone else or put up with having a worse car. What's there to complain about?

In Gr.4, I don't care what car I drive so I pick the one that's on the leaderboards(unless it's the RCZ). No one's forcing me to pick any particular car, and it's on me if I can't adapt to the driving style of the car I'm using.
Gr.3 is a little more complicated, they have more differences between them than the Gr.4s so I usually end up picking Corvette or Porsche all the time. I pick those cars knowing that I am at my personal fastest in them, as compared to the metas, but I'm not complaining.

So my question is, why complain about BOP at all when car choice is free for Dailies? Manu is a whole different can of worms that I'm not going to get into here. I know Pigems well enough to understand he doesn't care about mixed grids, I know most of us do but it's honestly quite a small thing.

To answer the question in the OP, for league racing with a custom BOP, I would expect all cars to be within .2 to .5 at the track races at. All cars have differences and it's already difficult enough to BOP them for racing as it is. The gap can already be made up by the different handling characteristics suiting or not suiting your driving styles. For Sport Mode I'll either use the meta car or use the one that's more comfortable to me knowing I have a disadvantage.

Generally, the slower a car class is, the more tolerant I am of worse BOP, road cars are vastly different and usually end up in super close racing where BOP doesn't matter much anyways since the lap times are longer too. In LMP1s, .5 per lap is huge, especially so when dirty air already discourages close racing so you spend most of your time TTing on your own.

Why would you deliberately choose a slower car then complain about it when the faster choices are literally right there? As racers, it's up to us to utilise the most out of a fast car, whether we like it or not.