What is an American ?

[ledhed]

This is what I found when I wen't looking for the relationship between Capitalism and Democracy.
"A capitalist system is a republic and not a [pure] democracy. It is a system of checks and balances so ordered to protect the rights of the individual, from criminals and most importantly from the democratically elected voices who claim to speak for the "public good." It is a limited "democracy".

For those who are confused by the issue, the essential point is this: is it right for another man to rape, rob and murder another? Capitalism says never; democracy says yes -- if the majority wills it. "
I have always held the beleif that a pure Democracy was an unworkable system, Thomas Payne and others helped push the US after the Revolution into a pure Democracy, it didn't work !nothing could ever get done each individual created a law to benifit his own interest. So the system changed gradualy into the hybrid we have now. So the answer to the question seems to depend on how you define Democracy.

 

[Talentless]

I must read through this thread later. One of the better ones.

 

[Danoff]

I would argue against the point that it would be legal for a person to steal, vandalize, kill etc. in a pure democracy if the majority willed it.

The reason is this. For a government system to function properly, there have to be untouchables. There has to be a basic set of human rights. Even if the majority wanted to legalize killing of a particular minority of people it would violate their rights and therefore not be subject to a vote.

 

[ledhed]

It seems when you go to find articles on or about democracy you get a wide scope of opinion on what democracy is for example you have representative democracy ,American democracy, pure democracy and onward, for the sake of argument if we were to pick pure democracy human rights would be negotiable weras in American democracy basic human rights are guaranteed.

 

[Talentless]

We are a democratic republic/constitutional republic/republic.

The problem is is that democracy has been overly expanded in definition. It now has a benevolence it should not have.

 

[Talentless]

Socialism, seeming the most beneficial to the lay man; most humanitarian is potentially the most dangerous.

Because people cannot survive long in wide groups under anarchy they inevitably move toward governance over themselves; a limited subservience. But fears of corruption abound throughout. The answer would seem to be to share the burden of ownership of farm land, what have you. "People power," or "power to the people" is likely meant as the antidote to the corruption. But since the function for those things which the people must contain may be too great, the power of the people may have to be delegated to an authority with the capability to handle it for the people, and, combined with the leftist sentimentality on aiding one's fellow man, has the result of socialism being, in reality, an illusion, for the power of the people is given over to a government that will likely swell for years in its attempt to meet social compacts the people lay out for it. Under ideal governance the dependency might not result in much that would have been different under direct control, but if corruption makes it through or was never gone, "people power" will have been for naught.

My opinion.

Probably made some errors.

 

[Talentless]

If not dangerous, than maybe dishonest.

I've been more toward the anti collectivism side for sometime. Disliking collective rule whether it is communism, socialism or democracy.

 

[ledhed]

What I think happend with the different philosophys of government is that when they were actually implemented they had to evolve to eliminate that wich did not work in practice I can only site instances in the American experiance because thats the part of political history that I have studied the most. But from my knowlage of military history I can see how communism and socialism were bastardized to create forms of government that were dictatorships using some elements of communist and socialist theory to give them some form of legitimacy. I can't see any examples in the world today of a pure system of government. All have borrowed or modified from other philosophys to create new models.

 

[KC]

Freedom is a term that can imply many things. Freedom to some might mean they are free to do whatever they like, even if that means raping someone or stealing or driving while intoxicated. That kind of freedom is anarchy in truth.

Freedom can also mean that we are free to do as we please as long as it what we do falls within the laws of the land established by the people. Those same laws are always subject to review by the people or representatives of the people. To me that is freedom.

As far as Socialism versus Capitalism. I do not see the Social Security System as socialism, it is merely another income tax imposed by the US government. If it were truly for the express purpose of providing a safe retirement for citizens then the government would not have raided it and it would not operate in the red as it does today.

Capitalism in and of itself is an expression of freedom. Entrepreneurialism is the best by-product of capitalism. If I see a need for a product or service I can exploit that need by performing that service or making that product for sale. What is not a by-product of capitalism is the naieve assumption of fairness. The world is not fair, nor will it ever be. There will always be poor and wealthy, but only capitalism offers everyone the chance to move beyond their current financial position. Socialism, by its very definition, will hold back those who strive to make their position better and reward those who stand with a hand out. This has been proven by the Socialistic model of every self-described communist nation in the world.

In a socialist society every person is just one cog in the great machine of the economy. To be more you must work outside the system. In a capitalist society you can operate as a cog in the great machine or choose to be something totally different. That is why capitalism is inherently better than socialism in my opinion.

 

[ledhed]

France is considered socialist and so is Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Finland. There are probobly more but I would have to look into it. I think you are refering more to communism when you say that the individual is just a cog in the machine.

 

[Talentless]

If we go by alleged purpose, than although the ss rolls may not be used to fulfill that purpose, it is still filled under the guise of improving the social welfare of the people, thus being socialistic. Social being about the common good.

 

[Talentless]

Wouldn' there have to be a kind of ratio to be able to afford socialism in a given society? Like 50 labourers for every 150 new borns born under government assistance?

 

[Talentless]

falling asleep. night.

 

[Danoff]

Back on topic:

A famous writer/philosopher said that following about Americans:

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose- because it contains all the others- the fact that they were the people who created the phrase "to make money." No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity- to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. "

 

[Duke]

"For the first time in the history of mankind, there was a country made of money."

It's crucial to understand that Americans aren't just lucky. We make our own luck. Anybody can, once they understand that.

 

[ledhed]

What some other's had to say about America..
Our defense is in the spirit which prized liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism at your own doors.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN



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Liberty is the air America breathes . . . In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential freedoms . . . freedom of speech and expression . . . freedom of worship . . . freedom from want . . . freedom from fear .

FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT



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I would rather belong to a poor nation that was free than to a rich nation that had ceased to be in love with liberty.

WOODROW WILSON



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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN



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For what avail the plough or sail, or land or life, if freedom fail?

RALPH WALDO EMERSON



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The freedom and happiness of man . . . are the sole objects of all legitimate government.

THOMAS JEFFERSON



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Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof.

LEVITICUS, XXV, 10.

Inscribed

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by ledhed
What some other's had to say about America..
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...we look forward to a world founded upon four essential freedoms . . . freedom of speech and expression . . . freedom of worship . . . freedom from want . . . freedom from fear .

FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT
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And this is the bastard we have to blame for the concept of "government as iinsulator/provider" that is prompting such a discussion about Welfare in the other thread.

That's not an "essential freedom" or even a right. Each individual is responsible for meeting his/her own wants. It is not society's or government's role to fulfill the wants of the individual. As soon as that role is assumed, every person loses liberty because every person becomes enslaved to the wants of all others.

 

[ledhed]

My Grandfather used to say he was a comunist bastard that should be shot. The Irony in that is that my Grandfather worked for the teamsters. Could it be that Roosevelt ment that no American should have to starve to death or freeze to death ? After all according to the capitalist rational, man is guaranteed the right to life and therefore the right to defend himself and so has the right to bear arms reguardless of the constitutional guarantee. Wouldnt that also mean that a man has the right to sustenance ? Without food and warmth in the winter a man would die. granted there is a contradiction here but its an interesting problem.
This is just a small excerpt from the capitalist perspective on poverty.
" What is the cause of mass poverty?
To answer the question, "What about the poor under capitalism?" one must first answer, "Why are there poor people in the first place?" The source of all poverty is the lack of wealth, which must be produced. The source of production (and thus wealth) is man's mind, which politically has only one requirement: freedom. Politically, this is the single cause of mass poverty: the lack of freedom. Observe the poorest countries are those where capitalism is lacking.". End quote
Seems simple make everyone free and no one will starve. Is it realy that simple ?

 

[Danoff]

no.

It isn't that simple. Some people will still starve because they are too stupid AND too lazy to contribute to the world.

Improves the gene pool anyway.



In America (because of capitalism) if you are willing to work hard, you will not starve.


In some cases, even if you aren't willing to work, we still have charity organizations to take care of you. Letting the government get invovled is no good. I have the option to contribute to a charity. Government contribution is obligatory.

 

[ledhed]

I want to thank you guys for getting me to read Atlas Shrugged . It was a great read and not normally something I would have looked for. Discussion of the book could take up its own forumn but you can find the true meaning of an American, in the book no matter what your point of veiw.
A small example in an excerpt ; " The United States . This country was the only country in history born, not of chance and blind tribal warfare, but as a rational product of man's mind."

 

[Blazing20]

This is what I believe an American is...

An American who is somebody who believes in...

Freedom...Liberty...Jusitce...Tolerance...Patriotism...Dreams...

I think that's all pretty self-explainatory.

It would be pretty cool to visit other countries, but I can't see myself living anywhere else other than America. That's if we get some destructive leader and we're all doomed. I feel lucky to be living here and very fortunate. I'm not saying we're better than everywhere else, but let's face the music: we've got it good. That's one of the reasons why I get soooo angry when I think about Sept. 11th and all these anti-American's living in America. We educate them. House them. Feed them. Give them every opportunity here that they could not have in their freakin' psycho terrorist countries....and still they take everything we gave them and throw it back in our faces.

If you hate our country so much...leave it. It was meant for those who need it and appreciate it.