What is the best convertible car?

[BobK]

If you want to overkill this series just slap some S3's on a Chaparral 2J. Or if you want to overkill it and have fun doing it, get out the Suzuki GSX-R/4.

My personal favorite for this series is the '54 'Vette.

 

[samj_13]

If you want to overkill this series just slap some S3's on a Chaparral 2J.GSX-R/4.
/QUOTE]

You can use the 2j in the Spyder/Roadster cup? I doubt it...?

 

[BobK]

You can use the 2j in the Spyder/Roadster cup? I doubt it...?

Okay, my bad; no, you can't use the 2J. I must have been thinking of the World Compact Car Race series. But the Suzuki GSX-R/4 is legal; I just doublechecked that one too.

 

[samj_13]

Okay, my bad; no, you can't use the 2J. I must have been thinking of the World Compact Car Race series. But the Suzuki GSX-R/4 is legal; I just doublechecked that one too.

I've seen the 2j and Gillet Vertigo used in the World Compact Cup and THAT is the definition of pure overkill.

 

[El Jarretto]

I used the oldest Miata the game had to offer. I think it was an '85 or '89, only 940kg too. Ofcourse one could use an S2000.

 

[Hapul]

If you are just after the most fun convertibe, i'd reccomend the caterham (does it count as a convertible???)

Anyway, it is a real hoot to drive. you'll love it!

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

If you are just after the most fun convertibe, i'd reccomend the caterham (does it count as a convertible???)

Not in this case. While there have been some Caterhams with removable tops, not the one in GT4. Of course, even if it did, like the Chrysler Prowler, there is a glitch in GT4 that prevents you from using both these cars in any race against AI cars. There are a few other "special cars" that can't be entered in races against the AI as well, although there exclusion is certainly more understandable than the Caterham and Prowler.

 

[Tornado]

It isn't a glitch. The Prowler and Caterham were excluded from the ability to race against A.I. bcause they both take up too much of the PS2's power to render them (thoiugh why they couldn't make a top for the Prowler is beyond me). It is the same reason the Nike ONE can not be driven. It was done intentionally.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

It isn't a glitch. The Prowler and Caterham were excluded from the ability to race against A.I. bcause they both take up too much of the PS2's power to render them (thoiugh why they couldn't make a top for the Prowler is beyond me). It is the same reason the Nike ONE can not be driven. It was done intentionally.

Sounds like a political spin job from PD to me.

Doesn't really bother me that they can't be raced, just as I am not bothered terribly by the existing glitches/overlooked features, but making the claim that the PS2 didn't have enough power for those cars or the many simple features missing from the game makes absolutely no sense to me. However, it does sound like a typical CMA company response.

 

[the Interceptor]

It does make perfect sense, because in open cars, the PS2 has to simulate a moving driver. That eats up a lot of the available computing power, only leaving room for two cars on the track instead of six.

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

It does make perfect sense, because in open cars, the PS2 has to simulate a moving driver. That eats up a lot of the available computing power, only leaving room for two cars on the track instead of six.

So its just my imagine then that there are six cars in races with my open top, driver exposed cars like the LMP1's and FGT?

Seriously, in some races there are several cars with exposed drivers.

More to the point of the glitch, is that the Prowler has a softtop, and so they could have added it. They could have even included the Caterham version that also has a removable top.

Regardless, I would really like to see actual data that would support your opinion, as the amount of data for that small of an addition just doesn't have the earmarkings of a smoking gun. If that was the case, then the PS2 wouldn't be able to handle any of the FGT races and most of the LM class races.

 

[Kent]

I'm not sure about all this but...

The FGT and other open cars are always open. They only have one appearance and that's as a convertible.

Normal convertibles on the other hand, have closed and open positions. Chances are, just that small difference accounts for the game's setup.

Also, the interiors of the cars are view-able. Some cars give you a view of the manual transmission being shifted. Most show a dash column and all have a big open space for a passenger.
All of that adds up and I believe it is the reason for two-car racing with open tops.

Just a guess but I hope that helps all the same. 👍

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I'm not sure about all this but...

The FGT and other open cars are always open. They only have one appearance and that's as a convertible.

Normal convertibles on the other hand, have closed and open positions. Chances are, just that small difference accounts for the game's setup.

And that's why there is not a simply reason why the Caterham and Prowler cannot be raced against the AI. The prowler comes with a soft-top, and some Caterham's also have optional removable tops. So if this was the issue, then PD had an easy solution... race them with their tops up.

More important, as pointed out, the game does allow open top racing, even with all six cars in a race so clearly the PS2 isn't the culprit.

Yes, there is more in car graphics exposed, but we are not talking about a massive amount of data by comparison, and once again, if this truly was the problem, then why not allow them to race with their optional tops?

I would suggest that it has nothing to do with the PS2, but it had to do with PD's resource limitations in getting the game out despite missing features, and some obvious glitches.

For instance, I found a way to bypass the glitch that prevents you from using the Auto Union Streamliner in races, and since then have been able to enter and driver it in over a dozen races... and the PS2 had no problem with any of those races.

 

[samj_13]

And that's why there is not a simply reason why the Caterham and Prowler cannot be raced against the AI. The prowler comes with a soft-top, and some Caterham's also have optional removable tops. So if this was the issue, then PD had an easy solution... race them with their tops up.

Maybe the issue isn't about racing with open tops. Maybe it's the fact that the Chrysler Prowler and Caterham 7 are open wheeled that makes them ineligible. Hear me out on this.

Driver animations could be pretty simple. All it would need to do is move the arm forward, backward, turn the wheel and the head. That would look realistic enough, right?

But wheel animations are different. The steering animations would have to be perfected in 3 locations instead of 2 (with the top down versus normal convertibles).The three would be each wheel area and the driver vs the driver and making 2 wheels move at the same time.

The wheel animations would have to be more realistic because the wheel cover, support bars, suspension, etc would have to be done independantly. Normal cars just do wheel animations.

I may or may not be right, but that's my theory.

 

[CJ350]

For instance, I found a way to bypass the glitch that prevents you from using the Auto Union Streamliner in races, and since then have been able to enter and driver it in over a dozen races... and the PS2 had no problem with any of those races.

Umm, D.I., are you saying you can use the Auto Union in races, and more importantly, can you share how so we all can?

 

[Tornado]

More important, as pointed out, the game does allow open top racing, even with all six cars in a race so clearly the PS2 isn't the culprit.

If it was merely that fact, than all of the convertible races would be held with the cars tops up. As yourself this: If it isn't the detail put into the interiors, why is it that the Corvette C1 can only be raced top down against one car? Why is the Toyota SERA's interior blacked out in races? Why does the Suzuki GSXR/4 put the cover on the second driver postition in races? In addition, Phil Frank established that PD was having loads of trouble with memory usage, which was why his Nike ONE was a "special car," as it was intended to be raceable. And the LMP cars have no dash or interiors to speak of, nor does the Auto Union. All you see is a driver and a wheel, which explains both the LMP cars and the Suzuki (with the second cover acting as a top).

Maybe the issue isn't about racing with open tops. Maybe it's the fact that the Chrysler Prowler and Caterham 7 are open wheeled that makes them ineligible. Hear me out on this.

Driver animations could be pretty simple. All it would need to do is move the arm forward, backward, turn the wheel and the head. That would look realistic enough, right?

But wheel animations are different. The steering animations would have to be perfected in 3 locations instead of 2 (with the top down versus normal convertibles).The three would be each wheel area and the driver vs the driver and making 2 wheels move at the same time.

The wheel animations would have to be more realistic because the wheel cover, support bars, suspension, etc would have to be done independantly. Normal cars just do wheel animations.

I may or may not be right, but that's my theory.

It can't be the fact that the cars are open wheeled, because the FGT has no problem with the game. It has to be more because of the convertible top. And remember, the Prowler has an incredibly detailed rear undercarraige, and the Caterham is the same way in the front, so putting the top up may not have done anything in those two's cases.

 

[CJ350]

It has more to do with the angles used and the drain on memory for the vid card to draw the interiors. Anytime you have a negative space that is visible, for instance , if you were looking at a glass of water from across the top, if the video card has to draw that inside section, it creates enormous increases in usage of vidoe resources. I can remember playing with 3d mapping years back with Quake 2, and even if areas weren't seen directly, they were still computed by the video processor, and frame rate would suffer horribly. That was years ago, and I'm sure things have improved, but console systems have limited resources and frame rate drops are to be avoided if at all possible.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Maybe the issue isn't about racing with open tops. Maybe it's the fact that the Chrysler Prowler and Caterham 7 are open wheeled that makes them ineligible.

That was my initial thought as well, as almost all the "special cars" that cannot be raced are true open wheeled cars. However, again, there are distinct exceptions. The FGT cars are not only open wheeled, but they have the most amount of exposed tire area of all the open wheel cars in the game due to their massive tires:

Moreover, in the case of the FGT, in the FGT championship, the PS2 has to process and save multiple angle data for six of them over nearly 200 miles per race.

Even if you ignore the FGT cars, one must also consider that both the Caterham and the Prowler are not really open-wheeled cars after all. Not only are their rear tires as covered as the average car in GT4, but even the fronts are largely covered by fenders:

There are just too many exceptions in the game to come to a conclusion based on a simple rule as to why a car cannot be entered in a race. And it at least suggests that time, resources, and oversight may have played critical roles in why some cars are not able to enter races against the AI, despite not having any clear reason why not.

 

[samj_13]

There are just too many exceptions in the game to come to a conclusion based on a simple rule as to why a car cannot be entered in a race. And it at least suggests that time, resources, and oversight may have played critical roles in why some cars are not able to enter races against the AI, despite not having any clear reason why not.

And that is where that discussion ends. Good points, D-N, as always.

PD should have just scrapped the Prowler and possibly the Caterham 7 IMO. It seems like they went half the distance on them, but just couldn't decide whether or not to put them as raceable carsm so they decided they were real good for Photomode. Oh well, ther's always GT5

 

[Kent]

Well, just like I started my last reply here... (hint hint)

I'm not sure about this but...
There is no consistancy about the game's quirks, that's what makes them quirks.
There's no exact way to know why certain cars can't go here, or why certain cars have screwy transmissions.
In the end, all we can judge is the product and leave no room for excuses.

It's just like when I ask if GT Wings should be allowed in something like a road car race. I think to myself, well, if PD wanted a wing on this car they would have allowed it- but they didn't so that's their screw-up.

Plain and simple, the game isn't perfect.
Just accept it and move on... Take it for what its worth. If you love the game, play it. If you don't want to play it, play something else. 👍

We all make our own decisions and PD made theirs, it's just too bad they made bad decisions from time to time.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

If it was merely that fact, than all of the convertible races would be held with the cars tops up. As yourself this: If it isn't the detail put into the interiors, why is it that the Corvette C1 can only be raced top down against one car? Why is the Toyota SERA's interior blacked out in races? Why does the Suzuki GSXR/4 put the cover on the second driver postition in races? In addition, Phil Frank established that PD was having loads of trouble with memory usage, which was why his Nike ONE was a "special car," as it was intended to be raceable. And the LMP cars have no dash or interiors to speak of, nor does the Auto Union. All you see is a driver and a wheel, which explains both the LMP cars and the Suzuki (with the second cover acting as a top).

Excellent points, and well spoken. However, this doesn't explain why the Caterham and Prowler couldn't have been raced with their tops up, as they would certainly show no more than the Shelby 427 does with its top up.

It also doesn't explain why the Auto Union cannot be raced (without the work around), as it has as small a cockpit area as any of the LMP1 cars… which, the PS2 has no trouble rendering.

As for why convertibles are always raced with their tops up when in races against the AI, and minimal detail is shown on any open top car regardless of when it is used was perhaps to save time and resources, and had little to do with the PS2’s processing power.

It's an interesting topic, but wont likely ever be satisfactorily answered without definitive proof.

I do though appreciate reading everyone's well thought out insights and opinions on the matter. Far more contructive then the many flame wars that breakout at other sights over far less interesting and meaningfull topics.


PS:

Umm, D.I., are you saying you can use the Auto Union in races, and more importantly, can you share how so we all can?

Yes & yes. I'm still trying to pin point why this can be done, and to see if I can "unlock" any of the other special cars, but so far I have not been able to do so. I hope to post my findings shortly.

 

[Grayman222]

isn't the reason the high poly count of the cars. Both have very large curves.

 

[Tornado]

Even if you ignore the FGT cars, one must also consider that both the Caterham and the Prowler are not really open-wheeled cars after all. Not only are their rear tires as covered as the average car in GT4, but even the fronts are largely covered by fenders:

One could argue, however, that as the fender moves with the front tire it may cause even more problems that are unforseen, such as trying to get the game to model the fender as a seperate piece away from the rest of the car. In fact...that may even be the reason for it, as it applies itself to nearly all of the special cars (the Caterham, Prowler, Toyota Triathalon and Nike ONE).

Holy crap. I may be on to something.

 

[the Interceptor]

There are just too many exceptions in the game to come to a conclusion based on a simple rule as to why a car cannot be entered in a race. And it at least suggests that time, resources, and oversight may have played critical roles in why some cars are not able to enter races against the AI, despite not having any clear reason why not.

Well, we have found out that the tires are not the problem. Covered or not, they move on every car in the game, so there should be no problem with computing power.

There is a difference with open cars though. In some, you can only see the drivers helmet, which moves according to the steering angle. Now this should be no problem for the PS2, because it is a shape that doesn't deform, and only move a bit.
If you can see more of the driver and the cockpit, like in many convertibles, you do have a problem, because you have to simulate a moving body that also deforms. As you know, natural motions are difficult to simulate in a 3D world, because they do not only need to look real, but also have very little in common with the way you simulate dead objects.

As a conclusion, I think that the reason for not letting more than two certain cars on the track is, as stated before, the limit in the PS2s computing power. Still, I didn't do this scientifically. You may well disprove my arguments with finding convertibles you can drive against five others, or closed tops you can only drive face to face.

Regards
the Interceptor

 

[BobK]

One could argue, however, that as the fender moves with the front tire it may cause even more problems that are unforseen, such as trying to get the game to model the fender as a seperate piece away from the rest of the car. In fact...that may even be the reason for it, as it applies itself to nearly all of the special cars (the Caterham, Prowler, Toyota Triathalon and Nike ONE).

Holy crap. I may be on to something.

You know, I believe you may have hit the nail on the head there. It's the simplest reason that accounts for all the facts. Occam's razor.

 

[Kent]

So with all that out of the way...

What's the best convertible?
A few starting guesses from me...

MX-5 Miata
MR2 Spyder (MRS)
SL55 AMG
Griffith 500?

What do you all think? I'm not really feeling the TVR too much but it does have everything you could need to just walk on the competition in the Convertible cup. 👍

 

[BobK]

So with all that out of the way...

What's the best convertible?
A few starting guesses from me...

MX-5 Miata
MR2 Spyder (MRS)
SL55 AMG
Griffith 500?

What do you all think? I'm not really feeling the TVR too much but it does have everything you could need to just walk on the competition in the Convertible cup. 👍

Okay, begging the question of what "best" is (fastest? Most fun? Most A-spec points?), first of all I'll rule out the Suzuki GSX-R/4 because strictly speaking it's not a convertible although they allow it in the Spyder and Roadster Cup. Otherwise it would be my hands down favorite.

So, hmm, the fastest production convertible I have driven would be the Mercedes SL 65 AMG which can walk off with the Pan Euro Championship, Supercar Festival and Schwarzwald Liga B and of course annihilates the competition in the Spyder and Roadster series.

I like my '54 'Vette because it can 200-point all three races in that series and a couple more besides (FR Challenge comes to mind).

The Shelby Series I and Ruf 3400S are fun to drive, and the Shelby 427 Cobra is a hang-on-for-dear-life adventure.

The Lotus Elan is an absolute hoot to toss around on a tight twisty track Like Autumn Ring. So is the Suzuki Cappuccino.

So which one I consider best depends on my mood and what I'm trying to do, but it's somewhere in this list.

 

[samj_13]

So with all that out of the way...

What's the best convertible?
A few starting guesses from me...

MX-5 Miata
MR2 Spyder (MRS)
SL55 AMG
Griffith 500?

What do you all think? I'm not really feeling the TVR too much but it does have everything you could need to just walk on the competition in the Convertible cup. 👍

The SL55 would be a cakewalk too, but the SL65 would just be mean.

 

[Kent]

... and Ruf 3400S are fun to drive, and the Shelby 427 Cobra is a hang-on-for-dear-life adventure.

Ah yes, those are some great convertables. 👍
The 3400S could be the most well-rounded convertable in the game (as it is a great car even when not considered amongst other convertables alone).

So with the fact that the 3400 is a great car out of the way, I come to the 427.
That car is just plain awesome.
I can't stand the 4 speed tranny in stock form but once you put some time into tuning it- watch out!
My favorite way to run the 427 would have to be on R3 tires with everything completely stock except for the transmission (replaced with a fully custom tranny). Doing that will make the Shelby a serious road burner.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I'm going to run an S3 427 with a few mods to see just how fast it can be on the Ring.

oh and btw, rep to BobK for bringing up some great points and reminding me of the 3400s and 427 Shelby. 👍