What PD can learn from iRacing

[bazet]

I started serious sim since GT5, then GT6...then all way long iRacing until now. Friends converted to iRacing after few test sessions, and never looked back.

I'm still playing GT6 occasionally...but I would love PD staff go subscribe iRacing and learn from them.

Netcode
==========
They have dedicated servers with excellent netcode. Means, I from Malaysia can race with Aussies, Europeans and Americans at 200ms-300ms but feels like 10ms-20ms

Dedicated League
==========
I always suggest my friend try 3 month of iRacing using base content, which using Mazda Miata with other 7000 racers that race every hour. After 3 months they still racing the damn Mazda. What they really care is the bragging rights by showing their 1800-2000 iRating. If you won Mazda cup, iRacing will award 50-60 points, but if you score below 5th, iRacing will take it back. So, only really hardcore racer can achieve that 2000 mark of iRating. Sort of bragging rights.

Realtime Leaderboard
===========
Take Mazda Cup for example, it will run for 12 weeks but only the best 8 weeks score will take into account. Competing with other 7000 racers in Mazda Cup is tough, to get your name listed in the first page of Statistics is even tougher..let alone topping the Time Trial.

Court Marshall
===========
You win Mazda cup by rear ending somebody on last lap ? There's protest system. And you'll get banned for period of time. To file a protest is quite easy, submit the protest with replay file. So road rage will not applied here without any consequences

License System
==============
You can drive GT3 cars and hit all the fences in Green Hell. While in iRacing, you'll need to spend 1-2 seasons ( 12 weeks - 24 weeks ) before you can get the required license to drive GT3 cars. And while 120 racers submit themselves for official race at 10PM, it will get splitted into 4 splits ( 120/4 = 30 ), 30 racers per split. And how do they group you ? by iRating...fast driver will be grouped to thier kind...not so fast driver..also being grouped with other not so fast drivers.


The future is online racing and governed by PD.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

Those suggestions are pretty good, but you are also allowed (and encouraged) to use the Suggestions subforum and submit your ideas one by one.

 

[JKgo]

...While learning from another is a good way to improve, I feel iRacing's just a bit too hardcore for the type of audience Sony's looking for with GT series.

Hell, even I chickened out after browsing through their home page - and back then I gamed real hardcore, man.

So yeah, PDI can take note on physics and the stable netcode, but as far as others go... maybe not so much.

 

[Tenacious D]

You can drive GT3 cars and hit all the fences in Green Hell. While in iRacing, you'll need to spend 1-2 seasons ( 12 weeks - 24 weeks ) before you can get the required license to drive GT3 cars.

I wouldn't get too carried away with iRacing fever. I think the natural progression in the normal Gran Turismo formula will preclude someone from hopping into a GT3 car for a week or three. There will be a lot of racing to go through between the Sunday Cup and doing a FIA GT race at Silverstone, whether it's the old school GT Mode or some kind of actual career that mirrors reality.

PD could also look to Forza's Livery Editor and mod system. Or they could create their own, based on some simulation of the real world. And this is what I keep coming back to. Very little can be gleaned from other racing games if you want to improve yours. It's a better idea to copy reality, and how motorsports works in real life. That's what I'd suggest.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...While learning from another is a good way to improve, I feel iRacing's just a bit too hardcore for the type of audience Sony's looking for with GT series.

Hell, even I chickened out after browsing through their home page - and back then I gamed real hardcore, man.

So yeah, PDI can take note on physics and the stable netcode, but as far as others go... maybe not so much.

iRacing has a few things that would benefit any game trying to be a true simulation. The aforementioned stable netcode is one. Another would be it's driver rating system. Not that a game like GT needs the same kind of rating system that iRacing has, the game isn't quite that serious and an overly complicated system might turn a lot of people off. But it could really use a simplified rating system of some kind to separate the punters from those that really want to simulate racing. Finally, all of it's tracks are laser scanned. Every official track in AC is laser scanned except for Zandvoort, Forza is moving in that direction and there are several in PCars that are laser scanned. I know some on GT are supposedly laser scanned but IMO it's something they should move towards, the laser scanning of all tracks in the game. It's something you really only need to do once, get it right, and the track is there forever, all you have to do is update the textures if need be, in successive generations of console.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Realtime Leaderboard
===========
Take Mazda Cup for example, it will run for 12 weeks but only the best 8 weeks score will take into account. Competing with other 7000 racers in Mazda Cup is tough, to get your name listed in the first page of Statistics is even tougher..let alone topping the Time Trial.

Is there really that many racers doing that cup? I had a 3 month trial which I wasted as only did a few laps in the end. Even with a sloppy lap, I was topping a time trial although participants total at time was only 341.

What I'm looking forward to is how the FIA Online Championship will be run on the next GT game. The future maybe online racing governed by FIA.

 

[JKgo]

iRacing has a few things that would benefit any game trying to be a true simulation. The aforementioned stable netcode is one. Another would be it's driver rating system. Not that a game like GT needs the same kind of rating system that iRacing has, the game isn't quite that serious and an overly complicated system might turn a lot of people off. But it could really use a simplified rating system of some kind to separate the punters from those that really want to simulate racing. Finally, all of it's tracks are laser scanned. Every official track in AC is laser scanned except for Zandvoort, Forza is moving in that direction and there are several in PCars that are laser scanned. I know some on GT are supposedly laser scanned but IMO it's something they should move towards, the laser scanning of all tracks in the game. It's something you really only need to do once, get it right, and the track is there forever, all you have to do is update the textures if need be, in successive generations of console.

...Online ranking/rating system sounds dandy, but wouldn't that mess up the QM?

As for the laser scanning of the tracks, I was under the impression PDI is going down that route already.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

As for the laser scanning of the tracks, I was under the impression PDI is going down that route already.

They are also taking it a step further with FIA certified tracks.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...Online ranking/rating system sounds dandy, but wouldn't that mess up the QM?

As for the laser scanning of the tracks, I was under the impression PDI is going down that route already.

That's what I've read as well, but there are only a few tracks I'm aware of that are laser scanned. T10 has said their goal is to have them all laser scanned and may be there already, although I've never seen an explicit statement to that effect. PD is pretty stingy with that information.

They are also taking it a step further with FIA certified tracks.

At this point we have no idea what this means in practice. For all we know it could just be a rubber stamp. We have to wait and see with the release of GT7 if it turns out to be more than that.

 

[Ettick]

Is there really that many racers doing that cup? I had a 3 month trial which I wasted as only did a few laps in the end. Even with a sloppy lap, I was topping a time trial although participants total at time was only 341.

What I'm looking forward to is how the FIA Online Championship will be run on the next GT game. The future maybe online racing governed by FIA.

Very few people run time trials in iRacing. It's often seen as just being for getting license requirements done and getting a little safety rating.

 

[Aussie_HSV]

That's what I've read as well, but there are only a few tracks I'm aware of that are laser scanned. T10 has said their goal is to have them all laser scanned and may be there already, although I've never seen an explicit statement to that effect. PD is pretty stingy with that information.

At this point we have no idea what this means in practice. For all we know it could just be a rubber stamp. We have to wait and see with the release of GT7 if it turns out to be more than that.

A rubber stamp.
Yeh. 'cause the FIA hand them out willy-nilly.

Give me a break.

Name me every game and every track you know that have an FIA 'rubber stamp'.

 

[Johnnypenso]

A rubber stamp.
Yeh. 'cause the FIA hand them out willy-nilly.

Give me a break.

Name me every game and every track you know that have an FIA 'rubber stamp'.

I clearly said we have no idea at this point what it means. You have reading comprehension issues.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Rubber Stamp or not, a collaboration with FIA is something that no other games has... (Except maybe for the Formula 1 and World Rallie games).

What i am trying to say is, other games simulate reality as best they can, including iRacing, but it will always remain a one way street where the games mimic reality without the validation from the certifying authority...

With Kaz and PD, (and hopefully they have worked an exclusive deal with the FIA like EA has with Porsche), but it looks like GT is getting a two-way street effort and participation.

The first step is to get all the official input and recommendations from FIA on how to organize and set up races, including all the safety concerns (even tho it may seems counter-intuitive that virtual races should be concerned with that aspect, but because of what Kaz want to do, it is actually very necessary), and apply these rules first hand onto the virtual world rather than by means of interpretation like every others games are doing...
If done right, FIA will actually bless PD and GT with the rubber stamp that no one else has.

Rubber stamp or not, this is a big deal.

Because the second step is to have FIA use GT codes and software as the official way of organizing future FIA digital automotive races...

This collaboration is much bigger than that between PD and Red Bull.

Again hopefully Kaz has secured exclusive rights for this "Rubber Stamp" otherwise other game developers including iRacing would want to get that same Rubber Stamping, in which case GT woulf remain another game in the crowd.

No mattet what, we the gamers, car lovers and racers will benefit from this "democratizing" of automotive racing...

Back on topic:
GTS is already showing signs of picking some ideas from iRacing, and beyond it is also getting feedback and validation from FIA for the exchange of FIA getting in their toes and feet into the digital virtual world...

For this Kaz is truly an pioneer!

 

[nasanu]

...While learning from another is a good way to improve, I feel iRacing's just a bit too hardcore for the type of audience Sony's looking for with GT series.

Hell, even I chickened out after browsing through their home page - and back then I gamed real hardcore, man.

So yeah, PDI can take note on physics and the stable netcode, but as far as others go... maybe not so much.

Yeah, that is what they used to tell devs before GT was released. Racing realistic street cars lol. Nobody wants that... Put some guns on it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Rubber Stamp or not, a collaboration with FIA is something that no other games has... (Except maybe for the Formula 1 and World Rallie games).

What i am trying to say is, other games simulate reality as best they can, including iRacing, but it will always remain a one way street where the games mimic reality without the validation from the certifying authority...

With Kaz and PD, (and hopefully they have worked an exclusive deal with the FIA like EA has with Porsche), but it looks like GT is getting a two-way street effort and participation.

The first step is to get all the official input and recommendations from FIA on how to organize and set up races, including all the safety concerns (even tho it may seems counter-intuitive that virtual races should be concerned with that aspect, but because of what Kaz want to do, it is actually very necessary), and apply these rules first hand onto the virtual world rather than by means of interpretation like every others games are doing...
If done right, FIA will actually bless PD and GT with the rubber stamp that no one else has.

Rubber stamp or not, this is a big deal.

Because the second step is to have FIA use GT codes and software as the official way of organizing future FIA digital automotive races...

This collaboration is much bigger than that between PD and Red Bull.

Again hopefully Kaz has secured exclusive rights for this "Rubber Stamp" otherwise other game developers including iRacing would want to get that same Rubber Stamping, in which case GT woulf remain another game in the crowd.

No mattet what, we the gamers, car lovers and racers will benefit from this "democratizing" of automotive racing...

Back on topic:
GTS is already showing signs of picking some ideas from iRacing, and beyond it is also getting feedback and validation from FIA for the exchange of FIA getting in their toes and feet into the digital virtual world...

For this Kaz is truly an pioneer!

I don't think "rubber stamp" means what you think it means. One perfect example of rubber stamping I've seen so far is fantasy street cars, including convertibles, running in races with real race cars. This would never be allowed in real life. To allow it in a "sanctioned" FIA game tells me they aren't serious about following true life racing specs. Aka, "don't worry, it's just a video game here's the rubber stamp - approved!". We know very little about the intricacies of the game so far, the tire model, tuning adjustments, how the races will be set up etc. I'm sure there is more to come so stay posted.

 

[JKgo]

Yeah, that is what they used to tell devs before GT was released. Racing realistic street cars lol. Nobody wants that... Put some guns on it.

...

Uh, okay, sure thing. Putting guns on a car sounds great and all. Not sure what that's got to do with my post, however...

Tell what to the devs?

 

[nasanu]

...

Uh, okay, sure thing. Putting guns on a car sounds great and all. Not sure what that's got to do with my post, however...

Tell what to the devs?

Guess Ill have to spell it out. Before even GT1 was released people said that a game like GT was too hardcore and nobody would buy it, the same as you are saying now.

Though what is hardcore about iRacing I dont know... You get a mortgage, sign up and race. Not exactly hard.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Guess Ill have to spell it out. Before even GT1 was released people said that a game like GT was too hardcore and nobody would buy it, the same as you are saying now.

Though what is hardcore about iRacing I dont know... You get a mortgage, sign up and race. Not exactly hard.

Have you ever tried iRacing? Do you know how the rating system works? You can't simply race what you want with whomever you want, you need to get your safety rating to a point where they will even allow you to race in certain classes. Some people take quite some time to get out of the rookie classes. Doesn't mean it's necessarily hard, it's just a game after all, but it's not nearly as simple or welcoming as console games have been so far. Not sure what you mean about the mortgage. I don't need to re-mortgage my house to scare up a couple of hundred bucks to spend on gaming.

 

[nasanu]

Have you ever tried iRacing? Do you know how the rating system works? You can't simply race what you want with whomever you want, you need to get your safety rating to a point where they will even allow you to race in certain classes. Some people take quite some time to get out of the rookie classes. Doesn't mean it's necessarily hard, it's just a game after all, but it's not nearly as simple or welcoming as console games have been so far. Not sure what you mean about the mortgage. I don't need to re-mortgage my house to scare up a couple of hundred bucks to spend on gaming.

Yes, I was obviously very serious when I said you need to take out a mortgage to play iRacing... Sigh.

Do you realise that if people are taking time to get out of the rookie classes that means they already are racing in iRacing right? It means they have already figured it out... Why do I have to explain this?

Anyway the take home point should be that you can take a system like iRacing's and apply it in a friendly way. Real world racing can be accessible and so can any simulation. Barriers to entry aren't essential for a sim, they are a failure.

 

[GordonS]

Phew, reading about the iRacing fees I'm relieved to go the console way. PoDi, you cheap b****rds !

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, I was obviously very serious when I said you need to take out a mortgage to play iRacing... Sigh.

Do you realise that if people are taking time to get out of the rookie classes that means they already are racing in iRacing right? It means they have already figured it out... Why do I have to explain this?

Anyway the take home point should be that you can take a system like iRacing's and apply it in a friendly way. Real world racing can be accessible and so can any simulation. Barriers to entry aren't essential for a sim, they are a failure.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make. Most "sims" don't have any barriers to entry at all, iRacing being the exception. Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, Automobilista etc. you pay for the game and you get instant access to the entire game and all of it's content. GTSport will have barriers to entry and barriers to progression. You'll need to complete a series of arbitrary tests before you can even compete in the FIA events. We know there is a game economy and although we don't have all the details it must be quite substantial or they wouldn't be giving away 1 million+ credits for pre-orders so it's quite possible you are going to be prevented from accessing certain content or parts of the game until you win enough money to do so. Given that every race has a winner and a bunch of losers, it's going to be especially difficult for many people to grow their bank account, which, in turn, means they won't have as quick access to the content/game as others who are better racers. So does that make GTSport a failure?

 

[SimTourist]

They can learn something, but they won't because nobody at PD has ever heard of it.

 

[nasanu]

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make. Most "sims" don't have any barriers to entry at all, iRacing being the exception. Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, Automobilista etc. you pay for the game and you get instant access to the entire game and all of it's content. GTSport will have barriers to entry and barriers to progression. You'll need to complete a series of arbitrary tests before you can even compete in the FIA events. We know there is a game economy and although we don't have all the details it must be quite substantial or they wouldn't be giving away 1 million+ credits for pre-orders so it's quite possible you are going to be prevented from accessing certain content or parts of the game until you win enough money to do so. Given that every race has a winner and a bunch of losers, it's going to be especially difficult for many people to grow their bank account, which, in turn, means they won't have as quick access to the content/game as others who are better racers. So does that make GTSport a failure?

Right... Geez I would need to explain so much to you to reply. First what the phrase "barrier to entry" actually means, why playing a game is playing a game, then a whole lot on psychology and UX/UI. I really cant be bothered. Just think about this; if as you say most sims don't have a barrier to entry then why are the player numbers so incredibly low? It always comes back to this with types like you. Game X is great, nobody plays online but everything about it is perfect.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Right... Geez I would need to explain so much to you to reply. First what the phrase "barrier to entry" actually means, why playing a game is playing a game, then a whole lot on psychology and UX/UI. I really cant be bothered. Just think about this; if as you say most sims don't have a barrier to entry then why are the player numbers so incredibly low? It always comes back to this with types like you. Game X is great, nobody plays online but everything about it is perfect.

So barriers to entry isn't a definable term, we determine what the barriers to entry for a game are by it's sales. I take it you don't actually have a definition for it then.

 

[nasanu]

So barriers to entry isn't a definable term, we determine what the barriers to entry for a game are by it's sales. I take it you don't actually have a definition for it then.

Anyone able to translate this for me?


I think I might know what he is taking about but nobody could misunderstand so badly, I must be wrong.

 

[GordonS]

To keep it simple. For casuals there won't be any 'barriers' to approach the game: just dive into arcare mode, 2P split screen, free run, normal online and so on.
Anyone wanting to approach FIA way of entering the GTS experience may have to climb the ladders of driving / racing code.
It has to be like this, hasn't it?
(I don't know anything about iRacing.)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Anyone able to translate this for me?
I think I might know what he is taking about but nobody could misunderstand so badly, I must be wrong.

Seeing as how I'm paraphrasing your own words right back to you, I can see how it is so hard for you to understand.

Just think about this; if as you say most sims don't have a barrier to entry then why are the player numbers so incredibly low?

 

[NixxxoN]

I dont want GT to become like iRacing, no way. Way too elitist and too serious. There is a limit.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I dont want GT to become like iRacing, no way. Way too elitist and too serious. There is a limit.

What is the limit? How is iRacing elitist?

 

[CarBastard]

What is the limit? How is iRacing elitist?

Without delving too much in the community aspect, which I hardly got to experience, I agree with him because of iRacing's physics.

I've come to think that, as a "sim", it is just flawed. In no other platfrom have I had so much trouble keeping a car on track, much less a Mazda Miata that's supposed to be a great begginer car. I've tried PCars, Rfactor, Race07, R3E (which is, IMHO, the best sim out there right now) and even though they're more demanding than GT6 it's not overly challenging. iRacing gives me the feel that it's artificially hard just to fuel their "OMG WE SO REALISTIK!" ego, but to them "realistic" just means unreasonably harder. When I realized I had to pay 5x what a car in R3E costs just so I could move on to an even more unrealistic source of annoyance in the form of a faster car I just gave up on it.