What PD can learn from iRacing

[Johnnypenso]

Without delving too much in the community aspect, which I hardly got to experience, I agree with him because of iRacing's physics.

I've come to think that, as a "sim", it is just flawed. In no other platfrom have I had so much trouble keeping a car on track, much less a Mazda Miata that's supposed to be a great begginer car. I've tried PCars, Rfactor, Race07, R3E (which is, IMHO, the best sim out there right now) and even though they're more demanding than GT6 it's not overly challenging. iRacing gives me the feel that it's artificially hard just to fuel their "OMG WE SO REALISTIK!" ego, but to them "realistic" just means unreasonably harder. When I realized I had to pay 5x what a car in R3E costs just so I could move on to an even more unrealistic source of annoyance in the form of a faster car I just gave up on it.

All well and good, but I don't see how that makes iRacing any more elitist than any other game with legions of fanboys that defend their precious against all logic and can't see the flaws that exist in all games.

 

[7HO]

without the validation from the certifying authority...

iRacing has validation from much more than FIA.

iRacing has official partnerships with official series from

NASCAR
IMSA
V8SC
Blancpain and SRO
Verizon Indycar

If you think getting a trophy from FIA is great on iRacing when you win the NASCAR championship not only do you win $10,000 but you also get the same NASCAR ring the real life NASCAR winners get awarded to you alongside the real life drivers by NASCAR because NASCAR see the iRacing NASCAR series as an official NASCAR series.

V8SC have been lazy lately with their websites but have previously updated their websites with news and results from the iRacing championships and discussed the iRacing series in broadcasts of the real life series.

iRacing had validation from authorities long before Gran Turismo and still have substantially more and the reality is the FIA partnership looks pretty weak when compared to just the NASCAR series on iRacing but then you have the many other partnerships iRacing have.

much less a Mazda Miata that's supposed to be a great begginer car.

Especially last season the MX5 has at times been one of the most difficult cars to drive on iRacing and it hasn't even made sense a lot of the time, I'm guessing you must not have tried much outside it or tried it this season because right now I'd rate iRacing as a sim easier to drive than Assetto Corsa when both sims are setup correctly.

I dont want GT to become like iRacing, no way.

It wont.

Way too elitist and too serious. There is a limit.

What is the limit? How is iRacing elitist?

It is elitist, anyone who has been a member or is a member of iRacing can easily verify that.

As for being too serious, for most people it is. iRacing doesn't try to be anything but a serious racer, it tries to simulate real life racing, it tries to do this seriously but iRacing is properly serious because the members take it seriously. They practice, they test and they form teams all in an effort to get the best performance out of themselves and the cars. When you combine that with a small membership and a matchmaking system that doesn't really work it means that if you are not serious you probably will not do so well and probably will not have much fun.

If you jump in the forums it isn't uncommon for fast guys to give crap to slow guys and just remind them how pathetic they are. Bullying is not deterred in forums and being shunned is common. And while there are some genuinely great members on iRacing, in general the forums are not that far removed from Chans with the main exceptions being you will get banned for swearing, threats and porn. And the members like it like that with many members who don't like iRacing having announced they only pay their sub to use the forums.

As for a limit, clearly that is different for everyone. Some people just want to jump into a race, they don't want to learn setups or practice. Some find a small amount of practice time and testing acceptable but don't want these to be more time than the actual racing. Others have no problem with practising all week for one race.

 

[Neomone]

If you jump in the forums it isn't uncommon for fast guys to give crap to slow guys and just remind them how pathetic they are. Bullying is not deterred in forums and being shunned is common. And while there are some genuinely great members on iRacing, in general the forums are not that far removed from Chans with the main exceptions being you will get banned for swearing, threats and porn.

So basically the same as GTP and most other game forums, is what you're saying?

iRacing is as elitist as DotA, or Lol, or CS:GO, or SFV, or any other serious competitive game. It's as elitist as you make it. If you wanna go full try-hard, then yeah it can be pretty rough if you're not that good. But that's sort of what competition is about, and the attitude to most complaints will always be "git gud".

If you just wanna have a good time and not care too much, it's fine as long as you remember not to care too much. I suck at SFV, but I can have a decent time as long as I don't take it too seriously. I'm not Daigo and I never will be. I don't expect great results and I don't get them.

 

[7HO]

So basically the same as GTP and most other game forums, is what you're saying?

Not even close. GTP do not allow the type of behaviour that iRacing doesn't have a problem with, most forums don't allow it.

 

[Neomone]

Not even close. GTP do not allow the type of behaviour that iRacing doesn't have a problem with, most forums don't allow it.

I think that they both have rules against it, and both have teams of staff and moderators that apply those rules with varying levels of zeal. There is most certainly bullying and ostracism on GTP, and while the staff here do a better job than most at dealing with it I think it's a big call to say that it doesn't happen at all.

Take a look at the Ludicrous Claims thread, if you like. Every community has it's own little ways of beating people into line. People that accept those ways stay, people that don't either leave or are driven out.

Personally, I've found the ratio of helpful members to arrogant ***** to be far higher on the iRacing forums than here. But that surprises me little, that's a forum made up of people who choose to regularly pay for the same game, whereas GTP welcomes a far wider community and discusses a much broader range of topics.

If you want to provide actual examples of the sort of behaviour that is tolerated there but not here then maybe we can discuss specifics. But in general I'm not seeing it.

 

[7HO]

There is no need to provide examples. If you are not aware of the personal attacks from certain aliens against people they disagree with or the almost constant bashing of noobs or the constant chan style posting in general you either selectively read the boards and avoid those areas or you just don't want to accept iRacing for what it is. I tend to use recent to browse the threads so I see a bit of everything over there including too much of the stuff I mentioned. iRacing ranks as one of the worst forums I have ever been a member of which is sad because it is a forum you must pay to use.

Every community has it's own little ways of beating people into line. People that accept those ways stay, people that don't either leave or are driven out.

This might be acceptable for certain forums, for example if someone creates a forum for friends and people they like then sure when new members join that is what you would expect. But for a paid service that behaviour is unacceptable, to even think it should be acceptable is completely wrong. Anyone who thinks existing members of iRacing should have the right to beat people into line and drive people out should not be a member of iRacing and should be made to leave. People are paying to use a service, that includes both the racing service and the forums. People paying to use that service should be allowed to do so in peace as long as they are adhering to the written rules and community guidelines.

iRacing has been going for 8 years and is currently by far the best simulation and has for a long time been the best racing service but after all this time the membership is pathetically small with many classes often going unofficial and rarely splitting, there are some very good reasons for this and one of them is the community.

 

[Neomone]

There is no need to provide examples. If you are not aware of the personal attacks from certain aliens against people they disagree with or the almost constant bashing of noobs or the constant chan style posting in general you either selectively read the boards and avoid those areas or you just don't want to accept iRacing for what it is.

You can be rude and call me ignorant if you like, but my experience with the boards obviously differs from yours. You could share what your experience has been and we can talk about it, or you can stay on your high horse.

It's no skin off my back, I just thought it might have been an interesting discussion. My experience is that the iRacing boards are not substantially different from GTP or several other game forums that I frequent. I simply wondered what you'd run into over there that made you think differently.

This might be acceptable for certain forums, for example if someone creates a forum for friends and people they like then sure when new members join that is what you would expect. But for a paid service that behaviour is unacceptable, to even think it should be acceptable is completely wrong. Anyone who thinks existing members of iRacing should have the right to beat people into line and drive people out should not be a member of iRacing and should be made to leave. People are paying to use a service, that includes both the racing service and the forums. People paying to use that service should be allowed to do so in peace as long as they are adhering to the written rules and community guidelines.

Not at all. It's merely a question of for what things you consider it reasonable to beat them into line or drive them out. You previously mentioned swearing, threats and pornography, and I think it's totally reasonable for even a service that is accepting payment to turn customers away if they won't abide by those rules.

That's why I asked for specific examples. For instance, GTP has an informal "you will post proof of your claims if asked" rule. It can sort of be inferred from the AUP, but it's not in there specifically. You'll find people being "bullied" about this, notably in the Ludicrous Claims thread, and also in the more speculative GT Sport threads. But it's deemed OK (and I agree with it as well) because it's simply part of the culture of this community.

If you've got specific examples of stuff that goes on at iRacing that wouldn't be acceptable here, I thought it would be interesting to discuss whether this is a conscious decision by the moderation team, incompetence from the moderation team, or merely something that has grown as part of the community. I think it's interesting how groups of people can end up doing things that few or none of the individuals would have considered acceptable.

But that's just me, and if you don't want to talk about it I can't and won't make you. Have a nice day.

 

[7HO]

You previously mentioned swearing, threats and pornography, and I think it's totally reasonable for even a service that is accepting payment to turn customers away if they won't abide by those rules.

Yes it is but it is still unacceptable for other members to take these matters into their own hands. There should be no beating into line or driving away, it isn't up to the members to decide beyond reporting it. If they have actually broken the rules then staff can remove them.

That's why I asked for specific examples. For instance, GTP has an informal "you will post proof of your claims if asked" rule. It can sort of be inferred from the AUP, but it's not in there specifically. You'll find people being "bullied" about this, notably in the Ludicrous Claims thread, and also in the more speculative GT Sport threads. But it's deemed OK (and I agree with it as well) because it's simply part of the culture of this community.

We both know that no amount of evidence I provide will satisfy you and that some evidence would require me to break the rules but just for kicks I just jumped on and looked in General and this is on the first page http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/3491145.page

Just some things off the top of my head. Derek Speare designed a shifter and was attacked on the forums for no good reason. DD wheel threads have degraded into constant personal attacks from owners and fans of different systems for well over a year and we have even had vendors attack other vendors. A certain Canadian constantly insults other members, if you can't work out who I am talking about lets call him Bill (not his name but if you still can't work out who I can't help you further without breaking the rules myself), you can look at Bill's post history, I just did and didn't get through one page without insults, he doesn't even have an issue with being offensive when he insults people. Recent discussions about the iRacing price increase are just another example of elitism. There is a thread just starting in Rookie discussion at the moment about the MX5 and the OP makes a solid argument but even with just a few responses so far it is only ridicule. That might be an interesting thread to follow if it could have decent discussion but I suspect it will be another popcorn thread. Popcorn threads, do you see many of them? IMO the fact that popcorn gets pulled out so often is evidence on its own.

If you've got specific examples of stuff that goes on at iRacing that wouldn't be acceptable here, I thought it would be interesting to discuss whether this is a conscious decision by the moderation team, incompetence from the moderation team, or merely something that has grown as part of the community. I think it's interesting how groups of people can end up doing things that few or none of the individuals would have considered acceptable.

It is part of the community and the moderation team is virtually non existent, its pretty much just Shannon and Nim isn't it?

Like I said there are members of the community that are great but the problem is that members are allowed to run wild so they do.

Also topics that are very likely to see people getting attacked. DQ limit, IR per car, anything that questions the quality of iRacing such as physics, FFB, protests, driving standards, safety rating just to name a few. Suggestions of cheating. Suggestions of exploits including verified bugs that lead to performance differences.

How about all those threads that have attacked Danica Patrick?

I think it is very probably that a big part of letting so much slide is iRacing don't want to lose paying members and for them to effectively improve the place they could lose a large number of members. Just go on youtube and watch some oval racing, offensive language, insults and attacks is pretty much a part of oval racing but what are they going to do, ban such a large percentage of the oval members? I don't think so.

 

[Griffith500]

Huh. I never used the forums, I just raced. Mainly in the MX5s.

I got bored of the payment model pretty sharpish, though. It is easily the worst part of the sim, especially if you dip in and out like I did, but I suspect they really want to control the total number of members (servers) and milk the richest of them.


This sim elitism, often ill-founded or otherwise over-compensatory in some way, is a huge cancer though, and applies to all games. EDIT: I should say that there are things developers could do to discourage it, but the fact of the matter is that, when it comes to "simulation", "hardcore" is the biggest selling point, because pretence.

I enjoyed my time racing in iRacing and that level of enjoyment was only achieved in a handful of other (online) games before or since, namely Shuffle racing in GT5 and LFS in a former life. I wish I could distill what it was that made it so fun, although I think it might include a certain amount of safety rating baiting of reckless / idiotic / egotistical drivers as well as the ultra clean racing with a close match that we all dream it could be...