What tuning parts and/or physics would make gran turismo to you the real driving sim?

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

One of my biggest issues with GT has as of lately been tuning parts. I've seen a few threads wanting to make iconic cars but cant because tuning issue restrict them from doing so. I think the main issue with gran turismo after the cars that we want and expect to see and the tracks that we also want and expect to see is the limited tuning options we have from game to game. However, lets think about it with the right price and the aftermarket parts available we can take a 2jz in the real world to a 1200hp + beast. Yet I only have enough parts to get slightly over 700hp that means that I'm neglected 500 hp + for this car that make it such a more amazing beast to drive (that's not to count the fact is should have been a premium car). The feeling is that a real world type feeling is lost when going to the tuning shop with your newly aquired car, and that certain parts should be allowed to get the desired power out of them. Now people will then begin to ask "what can gt add to the tuning area?" and it's simple they can bring in several pieces, including the nitrous option that they had for GT4 that for some reason was taken away in GT5 I'm sure we'd all love to put a X1 on nitrous. There are so many more options though like different types of superchargers, injectors, intercoolers, wastegates, twin and single turbo options, boost controllers, fuel systems, better ECU systems, bringing back brakes, once again the nitrous option, better pistons and rods, individual throttle bodies and the list goes on. At the end of the day it would be nice to produce a highly powerful 1972 Skyline, or a 69 Camaro SS that sounds like pure muscle. However, the car parts are not the only issue but you have the game physics that at times doesn't really fit but is a better improvement to Forza (not to bash it just my opinion when I play both games) but it still lacks in some areas a Formula 1 car shouldn't need me spending so much time tunning it when it should drive like a dream out of the box. I still think that GT has much room to grow in the realm of physics as far as the cars go. Many people will keep proclaiming rfactor and iracing along with other popular PC racing sims as the best (physics wise they seem to be better) but they lack the visual feel of the real world GT brings and I think with more work the real world physics can be achieved. I stick to GT cause it's probably the only racing game that has kept my car dreams alive as a kid and still does to this day but I think these key elements can make it even better. However I want the opinon of all of you too...

 

[iamsupernasty]

So you've driven a Formula 1 car in real life? That's how you know it should drive like a dream? Not to dwell on one point, but a Formula 1 car is probably the MOST difficult car to tune on the planet.

--

Secondly, learn punctuation.

---

Thirdly, I disagree. I care about physics and head to head racing quality. I could care less about adding a second throttle body or upgrading my injectors. Investing time into places that don't improve racing game play, is not a wise time investment IMO.

 

[GTP_Monkey]

Its called getting out, And you need to get out more often. 👍

 

[stadti]

You forgot some parts there.

First:
I'm fine with physics in the GT series, however gt5 applies two physics one for online, one for offline. That's not very real life simulating, or does this also apply in the real world? Do you Americans have other physics than we Europeans, or the Asians? Not forgetting the South Americans, Africans or Australiens, they are on the other side of the Earth, do they have other physics??? (This is not meant as a discrimination to anyone, I'm just trying to make a point here)

Second:
Get rid of the damage or realy simulate it, if you bump into a concrete pillar with 10 km/h in the real world it does more damage to the car as if you ram a wall with 400 km/h in the game, I mean WTF????

Third:
Qualifications are absolutely necessary to simulate the real race feeling. In the beginning you have to fight for your starting position for some rounds, you get used to the car and the track, and then you fight your way through the race

Fourth:
The AI is no way near a real driver, except that driver is a 4 year old kid in a mini electric toy car. Come on, you don't even have to fight to win a race if you drive a car lacking 200 hp to the AI cars with +100kg more weight on the car.

Fifth:
The X2010 has to go. Personally I very much like the car, I'm practising to make a clean ring lap, but that's really hard for me. However putting the X2010 into the game is like putting a UFO into a boeing flight simulator. It feels not really right for a simulator ...

I think I could go on for some time still, however there have been to many "What PD has to improve in GT5" threats in the past but adding a ton of new tuning parts will not improve the game for the average gamer. Like putting 10 different air intakes into the game, the non-tuning-freak-non-mechanic-player will just get confused and frustrated. And don't forget there are no creative borders in the real world, I mean you can also put a rocket engine into your car in reality and do a drag race with 110 000 bhp in your back, that would be nice in the game, wouldn't it?

 

[zodicus]

i would like to see the ability to tweak the engine settings, kinda like in need for speed underground 2. dosnt have to be complex just something for me to fiddel with, as in real life i fiddle with my tune all the time. And as always better more detailed physics. like the ability to completely unload a tire and a diff that works properly. Least improtanly more aero parts and a race conversion for every sports car or sporty car.

 

[cunningham85]

i remember in one of the first GT games you could perform ralliart or something and it would give the car a livery and weight reduction this worked on almost all normal road going cars why isnt that in it instead we get les than 20 RM premium editions

 

[shirakawaa]

In addition to the obligatory and much needed physics improvements (in many aspects, but I don't want to discuss that here) think that in general tuning in GT should be more realistic. Tuning parts should not only add power, but also come up with the downsides that exist in real life.

• For example, by installing high lift and overlap cams, the engine should run poorly at low rpm, with significant loss of torque in the low-end range. Same for big bore exhaust kits.
  
• As for exhaust systems, there surely is some customization potential available. Exhaust headers especially can shape up tq/pw curves in many ways.
  
• By increasing the engine compression ratio, engine braking and engine noise should increase, and reliability fall.
  
• In general there should be more potential to shape up torque and power curves, and to raise the rpm range, depending on the engine. Some engines in racing configuration in real life, although little remains of the original internals, can run 3-4000 rpm higher than stock. Of course, such engines run quite poorly at low rpm. In GT5 it's possible to increase the limit only by 1000 rpm or so for all engines, and even after fully upgrading them, they always run perfectly smoothly.
  
• One should not be forced to install a racing transmission to change gear ratios. Swapping the final drive ratio alone should do the job in most cases.
  
• There should be synergy tuning. In real life it's not simply a matter of installing the most expensive parts that can be found, but also a work of good balance between the different components.
  
• The racing ECU should enable advanced custom engine/electronics tuning options (rev limiter, minimum rpm, etc)
  
• Racing transmissions, by the way, usually have a long first gear in order to have a low rpm drop in other ones. How come this doesn't happen by default in GT5?
  
• There should be predefined LSD kits with different characteristics, not a single infinitely customizable, ideal limited slip differential. 100% locked differentials would be useful for drifting too.
  
• Even stock suspensions allow some limited amount of customization regarding toe and camber. On GT5 you need a racing suspension kit.
  
• Also more options, especially on the racing suspension kit, would be welcomed.
  
• Brake upgrades are needed, but only after proper brake dynamics are implemented. That means fade implementation, different rotor/pads characteristics and operating temperature range, brake response, failures, etc. And of course, PD should get rid of the perfectly ideal ABS/EBD system that all cars come with and put some system that works like real life ones. Of course, older cars would come with less sophisticated ABS systems. This could be a possible upgrade part.
  
• Racing clutches and flywheels. It looks like in GT5 they come with no drawbacks at all. Racing clutches made to withstand violent gearshifts are harder to control (especially at launch) and can make smooth shifts close to impossible. Light flywheels can make low rpm engine behavior erratical and harder to control.
• Proper professional telemetry. Much needed. The built-in data logger is a joke.
  

As you can see the list is quite long, and yet even with all this there would still be much room for improvement. GT5 deals up with tuning no better than its predecessors; I find it so simplistic and after all pointless that often I wonder if putting a simpler "level" system or "performance" system (like in GT5 Prologue) wouldn't be better instead of pretending to have detailed tuning, at least speaking of performance upgrades.

 

[Exorcet]

The X2010 has to go. Personally I very much like the car, I'm practising to make a clean ring lap, but that's really hard for me. However putting the X2010 into the game is like putting a UFO into a boeing flight simulator. It feels not really right for a simulator ...

The X1 not only fits, it's perfect for a simulator, unless and only unless your definition of simulator is "to avoid anything that does not exist in reality at all cost". That is not the definition of a simulator by the way.

Anyway, I think GT5 needs both more parts and better physics, but physics are far more important. Brake temp/fade, aerodynamics, dynamics (every car has super damped suspension), tires (especially the way grip is calculated [it is't]). Part wise, what's more important than more parts is how they are set in game. The options right now are decent (but I won't lie, very little progress had been made over 5 games).

 

[XDesperado67]

I would like to see a number of things in my dream car racing simulator. At times I feel frustrated because I can't find a game that combines the good parts of several different games. But to address the topic at hand I would like to see better physics made available in the game and implement them in user selectable increments so that new/casual users could set them to a more arcade type level while hard core race simulators could run at as close to real world as is possible in a commercial game.
Second I would love more parts and options for tuning cars. Again I would like that at user selectable levels with only minimal options for those who don't enjoy tinkering with the cars and just want to race to a very in depth selection of parts and tuning options possibly even including parts from real world aftermarket suppliers where its not just about slapping the most expensive part on but requires the player to put together a group of parts that actually work with the vehicle in question.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So you've driven a Formula 1 car in real life? That's how you know it should drive like a dream? Not to dwell on one point, but a Formula 1 car is probably the MOST difficult car to tune on the planet.

--

Secondly, learn punctuation.

---

Thirdly, I disagree. I care about physics and head to head racing quality. I could care less about adding a second throttle body or upgrading my injectors. Investing time into places that don't improve racing game play, is not a wise time investment IMO.

I've never claimed to drive a F1 car I just say compared to the Williams F1 that you get to drive in iracing it is a far cry when compared physics wise to the F10 or F2007. That is why I say that the physics for it isn't really near what is should be especially when iracing worked with Williams on it. Sorry english major for my writing I had no clue it hurt you so much. Also I don't really know why you're trying to argue with me like I set this up as a debate more so then a opinion. Also I would see the parts adding as a way to make it even more fun racing head to head. That is my opinion however.

 

[Basilea]

In the end, I would say the more the better, as long as it is implemented seriously and accurate!
But first I'd like to know (officially) what's going on with the tuning backwards theories!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think the best solution or a good one for that matter would be to make a quarter version of what the final game would be and send it out to a group of GT fans and have them play it. After a few weeks of playing PD comes back to them and says what parts need improvement but why or in detail what exactly. For example, say we play the game and the tuning options are confusing...maybe PD should add an instructional guide or a mapping system that works best for certain cars. Physics wise to get the car the very close to the real life sim...you need input from people who do the real life driving. F1 drivers, LeMans racers and GP2 guys would all help PD greatly in making a game that feels real.

 

[XDesperado67]

I think the best solution or a good one for that matter would be to make a quarter version of what the final game would be and send it out to a group of GT fans and have them play it. After a few weeks of playing PD comes back to them and says what parts need improvement but why or in detail what exactly. For example, say we play the game and the tuning options are confusing...maybe PD should add an instructional guide or a mapping system that works best for certain cars. Physics wise to get the car the very close to the real life sim...you need input from people who do the real life driving. F1 drivers, LeMans racers and GP2 guys would all help PD greatly in making a game that feels real.

I agree with most of what you have to say here but would like to add the stipulation that the playtesters come from a wide range of skill levels and gaming dedication. What a hard core race dim player might think needs adjusted in the final product would vary greatly from what a casual racer and/or new racer would need or want.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I agree with most of what you have to say here but would like to add the stipulation that the playtesters come from a wide range of skill levels and gaming dedication. What a hard core race dim player might think needs adjusted in the final product would vary greatly from what a casual racer and/or new racer would need or want.

Thanks I really agree with you, the reason I say use real racers is because they can help fine tune the cars to what they actually feel like so we get that real world experience. I like what iracing did with the FW31

 

[IceMan PJN]

What tuning parts and/or physics would make gran turismo to you the real driving sim?

Forza Motorsport 3 has a lot more upgrade options than GT5, but I'm not terribly interested in more upgrade parts for GT (though obviously there's room for improvement here). I don't see heaps of upgrade parts as necessary for "real driving sim".

I'd like to see:

• Tire pressure
• More detailed tire heat (different regions of the tire heating differently)
• Tire pickup (gravel, sand, marbles, et cetera)
• Track rubber-in (rubber painted onto the track directly from the tires)
• Marbles (chunks of tire rubber building up off the race line)
• Dry line forming on the track during rain
• Flat-spotting tires
• Flag/penalty system
• Brake temperature (too hot or too cool)

I could care less about adding a second throttle body or upgrading my injectors.

I have to comment since this is a pet peeve of mine. It's "I couldn't care less". Yes, it makes all the difference in the world. It means the difference between caring and not caring at all. I will not rest until people stop saying "I could care less".

http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html

Second:
Get rid of the damage or realy simulate it, if you bump into a concrete pillar with 10 km/h in the real world it does more damage to the car as if you ram a wall with 400 km/h in the game, I mean WTF????

I agree that the damage isn't accurate, but I disagree with the often-posted argument that it needs to be removed if it isn't completely accurate. The physics in GT5 aren't completely 100% accurate, so should they be removed? Absolute perfection is a nice goal, but one that they won't ever achieve, but they can do what they can and constantly progress closer and closer to that goal. So, even if far from perfect, even if terrible, something is still closer to that goal than nothing. Crude damage is still closer to realism than no damage at all.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Thanks IceMan PNJ for the post and great input.

 

[another_jakhole]

Thirdly, I disagree. I care about physics and head to head racing quality. I could care less about adding a second throttle body or upgrading my injectors. Investing time into places that don't improve racing game play, is not a wise time investment IMO.

I think so, too. The naturalness of it is what gets me sucked into the game, by far. Forget over-tuning and making every single car as fast as a Super GT car. Not saying fully tuning cars is stupid, but doing it to every car is.

 

[SoCal Senator]

Tire pressure and ability to make left/right changes.

 

[stadti]

I agree that the damage isn't accurate, but I disagree with the often-posted argument that it needs to be removed if it isn't completely accurate. The physics in GT5 aren't completely 100% accurate, so should they be removed? Absolute perfection is a nice goal, but one that they won't ever achieve, but they can do what they can and constantly progress closer and closer to that goal. So, even if far from perfect, even if terrible, something is still closer to that goal than nothing. Crude damage is still closer to realism than no damage at all.

I don't think that nothing (no damage) is worse than this damage model. It's like doing something propper or don't do it at all. To keep the comparison with the physics. Yes physics would need an improvement, but they work smooth and do at least reflect reality. I know physics will never simulate reality for 100%, but if you can achieve maybe 70-90% it's good, and I think this is what PD has achieved. However the damage doesn't even reflect reality by 10% and no one can say that this is propperly done.
The damage in the game has no consequences in the way a car behaves so it's not simulating anything. A totally wrecked car still drives as it would with no damage and some cars don't even have damage on them. Take the X2010, the whole damage this car gets are dark grey spots where you hit something, that's it. And calling this a damage model is just a shame and nearly fraudulent. Those dark grey "hits" appear on almost every car instead of real damage.

I know what other games can do to simulate damage, just take Race Driver Grid as an example. You hit something with your front left and you damage that area. The tire won't turn propperly and the car will drag to one side instead of going in a straight line. You ram something with highspeed and your car is a ruin and you are out of the race. That's at least a propper damage simulation where the damage does things to your car, instead of making it just ugly.

 

[playnthru]

My pet peeve is bumper cam and hood cams . These views are cheats and don't belong in a simulator. It's funny when people use these view points and then say they are driving. Cockpit view is the only option that needs to be in a sim.

 

[EivlEvo]

Polyphony Digital should care less about making a driving "simulator" and more about finishing a game before they release it. GT physics have always been "less than real" up until this release. Now they're at least respectable.

 

[Bonzo]

None of this stuff is really REQUIRED of a simulator, except maybe physics.

But this is a game, and I'd love to have some of those engine swaps Forza has.

 

[United6694]

Just sort out the sound of the racing exhaust PLEASE.

 

[EivlEvo]

My pet peeve is bumper cam and hood cams . These views are cheats and don't belong in a simulator. It's funny when people use these view points and then say they are driving. Cockpit view is the only option that needs to be in a sim.

Ehhh... this isn't technically true. In real life, we have periphery, an ability to sense position, and an ability to rapidly look one way or another.

I know we have the PS Eye toy nonsense, but thats really more of a gimmick than a true effect.

Driving in the other cameras is simply compensating for the lack of other senses.

For example, when driving a real car, I can feel the rear end begin to step out before I can see it. In GT, there's no way, not even with the BEST force feedback or visual aids. So you end up in the chase cam or an alternate cam so that you can SEE the rear stepping out sooner than you can in the cockpit.

As someone who uses simulators every day. GT is in no way, shape or form anywhere close to a simulator. Its probably as close to a simulator as a video game will ever get, but thats still a long ways off.

By comparison, you can look at Microsoft's Flight Simulator. This is DEFINITELY closer to a simulator and there is almost no "game" aspect to it at all. No one buys it (except people who need it for something) and the sales dwindle. People would rather play Ace Combat than a Microsoft Flight Simulator. PD knows this, and they're trying to walk that fine line of marketing a game to a niche group of gamers, and marketing it to everyone.

Honestly... they're doing a poor job with both, instead of the other way round.

 

[shirakawaa]

[...]This is DEFINITELY closer to a simulator and there is almost no "game" aspect to it at all

The two things aren't mutually exclusive. It's all about the options and choices that developers provide to users.
However, in the case of GT5, I'd agree with what you say:

Honestly... they're doing a poor job with both, instead of the other way round.

 

[Tornado]

My pet peeve is bumper cam and hood cams . These views are cheats and don't belong in a simulator.

My eyes just rolled out of my skull.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

My pet peeve is bumper cam and hood cams . These views are cheats and don't belong in a simulator. It's funny when people use these view points and then say they are driving. Cockpit view is the only option that needs to be in a sim.

Oh man...

So I guess people who race with standard cars are using "cheats". Darn them! PD, either make all standards premium or remove them from the game ASAP! Do it for the sim purists!

 

[Kamdoon]

Forza Motorsport 3 has a lot more upgrade options than GT5, but I'm not terribly interested in more upgrade parts for GT (though obviously there's room for improvement here). I don't see heaps of upgrade parts as necessary for "real driving sim".

I'd like to see:

• Tire pressure
• More detailed tire heat (different regions of the tire heating differently)
• Tire pickup (gravel, sand, marbles, et cetera)
• Track rubber-in (rubber painted onto the track directly from the tires)
• Marbles (chunks of tire rubber building up off the race line)
• Dry line forming on the track during rain
• Flat-spotting tires
• Flag/penalty system
• Brake temperature (too hot or too cool)

+1

I would also like to see more realistic tire wear -- sliding around the course will damage your tires faster than maintaining proper traction. But yeah, more realistic tire stuff. It's the only connection to the road!

Flag/penalty system would be great, too, especially for A-spec -- new drivers like myself can become lazy if you're allowed to drive like a fool. It should be more like the license tests, but w/ penalties as opposed to restarts.

 

[CMvan46]

Ice man is right. More realistic tire physics in every way.

On a side note it is pretty cool doing engine swaps in forza. Dropping wicked motors into cars that haver no business having them is pretty cool and widely opens up tuning possibilities.

 

[EivlEvo]

Ice man is right. More realistic tire physics in every way.

On a side note it is pretty cool doing engine swaps in forza. Dropping wicked motors into cars that haver no business having them is pretty cool and widely opens up tuning possibilities.

If I'm going to bicker... and really what is this thread for? I'd have to say that I want motor swaps more than anything. I've never played Forza (coz no 360) so I dunno, but it would be nice if it was sort of opened up. I mean... obviously there isn't really a way to put a dodge viper engine (or any other HUGE engine) into a fiat 500, but at least be able to drop something in.