Whats the difference between Torque and Horsepower

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Wolfe2x7
A. Power/weight has nothing to do with top speed. Just power.

Well that was kinda the point of my post, was it not :confused:

Power/weight is a factor in how quickly you can GET to top speed, but that's about all.


Wolfe2x7
B. I understand completely how aerodynamics/rolling resistance and top speed are related -- you've missed the point I was trying to make, which was that cars with more torque don't necessarily have higher top speeds than equivalent-HP cars with less torque. Again, this is based around generic peak-output numbers, and is in response to LeadSlead#2.

No, I didn't miss your point, I was trying to elaborate on it. I probably shouldn't have quotoed you because it must have made it seem like a counter-argument rather than support. My bad. :)


M
 
LeadSlead#2
:cheers: have a beer if it's all figured out, if not give me my beer back!

:lol:

///M-Spec
Well that was kinda the point of my post, was it not :confused:

Power/weight is a factor in how quickly you can GET to top speed, but that's about all.

'Twas a response to:

///M-Spec
The reason the C5 Z06 and E60 M5 have similar top speeds despite the Vette's huge power/weight ratio advantage would be aerodynamics.

:)

///M-Spec
No, I didn't miss your point, I was trying to elaborate on it. I probably shouldn't have quotoed you because it must have made it seem like a counter-argument rather than support. My bad. :)

Oh, I see. Sorry 'bout that. :)

:cheers:
 
Thread revival!
To accelerate as quickly as possible should you keep your RPM around peak torque or power and why?
 
wherever the powerband is, i suppose..,

i think i may have 2 definitions of torque & horsepower:

1: torque = acceleration , horsepower = top speed

OR

2: torque = accel in low speeds , horsepower = accel in high speeds

(pardon me if they sound the same)
 
Not responding to anybody's questions or comments here. Just pointing out something that I learned a little bit of time ago and kind of fascinated me. All dyno charts showing torque and horsepower intersect each other at 5252 RPM's. Of course it's easy to see they would from the equation:

HP = (Torque x RPM )/5252

I had just never noticed it before, so I found it interesting. Carry on.
 
So in 1st gear is there no point in revving to max power for max acceleration, but rather use the torque as effectively as possible?
 
That's for a Gasoline engine only, right?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that it is for all internal combustion engines. Knowing that most diesels have no chance of reaching 5252 RPM's, one would think that the torque and horsepower curves would meet somewhere sooner. But from 0 to 5252 RPM's the torque curve should always be greater than the horsepower curve. After 5252, horsepower takes the high curve. In diesels, the torque is always higher than the horsepower, until you get to 5252 RPM's. I'm fairly confident in my answer.
 
Thread revival!
To accelerate as quickly as possible should you keep your RPM around peak torque or power and why?

Just make sure that it's making as much power as possible at each and every point along the acceleration curve... which means staying as close to peak power as possible at all times. Peak torque is just what helps you get there...
 
So if torque helps you accelerate why not keep it at peak torque? Or do engines work best (make a car accelerate the fastest) when there is the best combination of torque and higher revs (as power is a factor of torque the best combination of revs and torque is peak power)? I suppose a engine revving quickly helps the acceleration in that sense.
 
So if torque helps you accelerate why not keep it at peak torque? Or do engines work best (make a car accelerate the fastest) when there is the best combination of torque and higher revs (as power is a factor of torque the best combination of revs and torque is peak power)? I suppose a engine revving quickly helps the acceleration in that sense.

OK the following is a large piece but woirth readiung if you want a detailed and accurate answer to your question.

Ed Lansinger
Torque vs. Power – Author Ed Lansinger
First, a clarification: torque is no more real than power. The DOHC puts out 133 ft-lb of ground-pounding torque, but I've seen some older Neons that are leaking torque and you have to avoid driving behind them because the torque, once leaked, is slippery. Don't bother picking it up and adding it to your engine as it degrades quickly and will take you out of Stock class. Consider torque and power as concepts used to describe how things interact to produce movement and how "energy" (another concept) is transferred.

Both torque and power can be observed "directly". Think of slowing a freespinning tire with your hand. Feel the tug on your palm and the tension in your arm? That's a measure of torque, the torque the tire experiences as a result of your palm slowing it down. Feel the heat build up from friction? That's a measure of power.

Incidentally, water brake dynamometers get a direct measurement of power by measuring the increase in the temperature of water flowing past a propeller
spun by the engine under test.

You can solve for torque if you know engine RPM.

Maximum Acceleration vs Torque

I'd like to think that torque is an intuitively easier concept to understand. If
that were true, though, then more people would understand the relationship
between torque, horsepower, and vehicle acceleration. In reality, none of it is
intuitive. If it were, Newton wouldn't be considered the Really Great Guy that
he is.

The classic mistake is to conclude that the fastest way down, let's say, a 1/4
mile drag strip is to keep the engine RPM at the torque peak (or as close as
possible). The technique is usually stated as "shift just after the torque peak",
or "shift N RPM above the torque peak so you are N RPM below the torque peak in the next gear when you finish the shift".

Unfortunately, *engine* torque does not tell you the full story. What matters isthe torque *delivered to the tires*, including the effects of the transmission. We all know a car does not accelerate as hard in second gear at peak torque RPM as it does in first gear. The transmission amplifies or multiplies the torque coming from the engine by a factor equal to the gear ratio. So to determine how much the car is accelerating at a particular instant, you have to know both the torque output of the engine as well as the gear ratio.

To figure out your shift points knowing only torque, generate tables of
transmission output torque vs. RPM for each gear. To get transmission output
torque, multiply the engine torque by the gear ratio. You are simply comparing
gear to gear, so the final drive ratio can be ignored. You may also need to know the relationship between RPM in one gear and RPM in another gear (which is RPM * (gear2ratio/gear1ratio) at any particular vehicle speed.)

Then it's easy to see what shift points to choose to maximize your transmission output torque at all times.

Here's an example for the 1999 Neon DOHC engine with a five-speed manual
transmission. Before you flame, understand that I do not have an accurate
torque curve for this motor. I'm estimating visually from the curve printed in the 1999 brochure, which is seriously flawed (it makes a lot more sense if the
torque curve is shifted to the right 1000 RPM).

I get:

graphgi5.jpg


Without graphing, there's something immediately apparent: in any gear, at 7000 RPM, the transmission torque output is always higher than at any RPM in the next gear up. What this means is, for this car:

* Shift at the redline, not at the torque peak!

Walk through an example. You're hammering down the track in 1st gear. Engine RPM is 6000, just past the engine's torque peak. Do you shift? Well, if you do, the engine will be pulled down to 3600 RPM, and 2nd gear will send 246 ft-lb of torque to the wheels (actually, to the differential first, which amplifies the torque by a constant factor and sends it to the wheels). Don't you think it would be better to hold it in first gear? Torque is dropping off, but it's still 389 ft-lb at 7000 RPM, right before the 7200 RPM redline. So, for this powertrain, first gear is *always* the best deal for acceleration, at any speed, except that you can't accelerate past the redline.

The 1-2 shift at 7200 RPM pulls the engine down to 4400 RPM, where 2nd will
deliver 265 ft-lb of torque. Not only did you win by maintaining the high torque of 1st all the way to 7200 RPM, you are now better off in second gear.
Same thing goes for the 2-3 shift. 2nd gear output torque at the redline is still
greater than 3rd gear output torque at any engine speed, so you wind her out
as far as she'll go before you shift to 3rd. Same for the 3-4, same for the 4-5.
But, you ask, isn't your acceleration greatest at the torque peak? Yes, it is! But only within that gear. The next gear down will give you even greater
acceleration at the same speed, unless the vehicle speed is too high for that
gear.

To use engine torque to understand how your car performs, you MUST include
the effects of the transmission.


Maximum Acceleration Vs. Power

OK, so what about power? As has been noted by a previous contributor, Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252. Note that power is also force * velocity, specifically: Power (hp) = Force (lb) * Velocity (MPH) / 374

That's net horsepower, which is engine power minus losses like transmission
and tire friction. The force is the sum of the longitudinal forces at the contact
patches of the two driven tires.

Hmmm... P = F * V ...rearrange to get F = P / V ...

that means that you get the maximum force pushing the car if you maximize
your *Power* at any given velocity. This gives us another useful rule:

* Shift to maximize engine POWER, not engine torque!

This is *exactly* the same as saying "shift to maximize transmission output
torque". But it's a little easier to apply. Here's how.

Using the torque information above, I get the following power curve:

RPM HP
1000 10
1500 19
2000 30
2500 44
3000 59
3500 76
4000 91
4500 107
5000 124
5500 139 (peak torque)
6000 149
6500 151 (peak power)
7000 147

The tires don't see quite these numbers due to [friction and aerodynamic]
losses, but I'm going to assume that the losses are comparable from gear to
gear and that the overall shape of the power curve remains the same.

Applying the maximum power rule, we'd like to race down the 1/4 mile with the
engine always as close to 6500 RPM as possible. If we had a continuously
variable transmission, the lowest E.T. would be achieved by keeping the engine dead on 6500 RPM. 5500 is not the best; at any vehicle speed, the engine would put out more torque but the transmission will have a less advantageous gear ratio, so you get a net loss of force to the tires.

Apply P = F * V or P = T * RPM
to prove this.

Since the Neon doesn't have a CVT, we have to shift. The shift points are pretty easy to determine. In fact, you don't really need to know anything about the gear ratios of the different gears, which is why power is sometimes easier to understand than torque.

I'm going to assume that the DOHC puts out at least 145 horsepower at the
redline (7200 RPM). Shifting at the redline in each gear should drag the engine
down as follows:

shift RPM drop Horsepower change
- ----- ---------- ------------------
1->2 7200->4700 145->114
2->3 7200->4600 145->110
3->4 7200->5500 145->139
4->5 7200->5000 145->124

(I derived this, but all you really need to do is drive the car, shift, and find out where the motor lands)

Note - and this is important - the transmission does not amplify power.
Power in = power out, minus losses
(which are low for a manual transmission).

This is predicted by the law of conservation of energy.

Is 7200 the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.

A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.

The above has been quoted by myself and others quite a few times (and can also be found in the second of my GT4 tuning guides, along with more info and examples), but is always worth posting.

Its not a simple subject to grasp at first, but it is an important one, both for Gran Turismo and the real world.


Regards

Scaff
 
Alright I will start with what I know.

They form an equation linked with rpm and intercepting at value 5252 (for torque(lbs/ft).
Torque is the rotational force of the engine that ultimately, through the transmission, is passed on to the wheels.

A famous driver said "Horsepower sells cars but torque wins races."

Horsepower is linked to acceleration, but how does that make it different from torque? Also what about top speed? I'm in the dark here. :ouch:
 
Horsepower is a measurement of work performed...like moving.

Torque is a measurement of twisting force. When you try to remove a lug from your wheel, you're applying torque. When the lug actually moves, you're performing work.

This analogy taken further; try to remove the lug with a small ratchet/spanner. Now do the same with a very long breaker bar (or pipe affixed to the ratchet). Notice a difference? Yes, you did. Removing the lug with the longer wrench was a lot easier than with the shorter one.

Why? Did you magically become stronger? No. You multiplied the torque you were applying to the lug and the work became easier.

Cars do the same thing except they don't use pipes or breaker bars; they use transmissions. This is why I think engine torque is grossly over rated. Through gearing, a 4cyl can apply as much torque to the wheels as a big V8.
 
Ok but when they measure bhp isn't gearing ignored?

Revisiting the equation, it becomes evident that torque and rpm values, lacking coefficients, are of the same importance when calculating for horsepower.
So you can have great horsepower either relying on rpms (eg. F1) or torque (eg. NASCAR), derived from greater engine capacity in this case.
 
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Ok but when they measure bhp isn't gearing ignored?

Revisiting the equation, it becomes evident that torque and rpm values, lacking coefficients, are of the same importance when calculating for horsepower.
So you can have great horsepower either relying on rpms (eg. F1) or torque (eg. NASCAR), derived from greater engine capacity in this case.

True!




I always advise people to look at thrust curves as opposed to Dyno graphs as it gives a much better illistraition of what a vehicle is capable of in terms of force at the wheels. A thrust curve will take into consideration, the Gearing/torque/rpms/wheelsize and show you how much force at the wheels measured in lbs in any gear at any speed.

PS

I did have an excel spread sheet that could work out thrust curves. Will have a look.


A thrust curve of 2 Motorcycles. if you look at the torque curve of each motorcycle, you will see that it is the same shape as the thrust curve, with the thrust curve becoming more compressed in each gear lower.

1LBikesThrustCurves02.jpg




Put simply, Torque is force, and power is torque applied at speed. So X amount of torque produced at X amount of RPM's will give X amount of BHP. The rpm being the speed at which the torque is delivered.
 
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To make it simple:
horsepower is what the engine produces and torque is what gets you accelerating through the fricition ;) not right in terms of physics, but it explains it.

I hope it is understandable what I mean.
Btw. I study automotive at college :)

Edit: BrutherSuperior and PAPPACLART explained it right :) and also understandable
 
So if I understand correct, horsepower is more critical in high rpms and torque in low? Like the two extremes F1 vs tractor, speed vs towing capacity?
 
Torque, in it's most basic form, is a twisting force on a shaft, as applied by a lever arm about an axis. The simplest way to envision this is by looking at a steam locomotive: the force put on the side rods by the cylinders causes a torque, which causes the wheels to rotate. Torque is a sort of work, an end result of applying energy to create forward motion.

When you factor how fast the wheels are turning into the equation, this becomes a type of power. Power is the measure of how much energy is expended into, in this case, motion, in a given period of time. It's a rate, a speed, if you will. the standard electrical measure of power, Watt, is a measure of how many Joules of energy are being expended every second. Power is work(Force X angular rotation) x Velocity...you can raise one and lower the other value and end up with the same number, but the engine's characteristics will be very different.

This energy/velocity exchange is why, given the same power rating, a large engine, which doesn't rev very high, can do a great deal of work (pull a heavier load over a set distance), but not at a very high rate, while a small, high-revving engine cannot do the same amount of work, but can do that small amount of work very fast.

An F1 car can put out tremendous amounts of energy over the matter of a few seconds, and reach unbelievable speeds extremely quickly, but, for the same power, a guy with a diesel truck can pull a 50,000 lb sled 300 feet if he has his setup right, while that same F1 car would stall over and over with the same setup. Of course, there are other factors as well, but the basics are this: you can do one of two things: a lot slowly or a little quickly.
 
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Torque doesn't mean much.

Hop on your 10-speed bike and start selecting different gears. You're producing the same force, yet, some gears accelerate better than others. The gears in the transmission mean everything.

A 1spd Nissan GTR will not be able to go up a driveway (conversely, accelerate past 30). But you add a couple more gear ratios and you have a bullet. In a manual car; try to take off in 5th/6th gear. You'll stall. Does the engine produce more torque in the other gears? No. However, the transmission leverages whatever torque there is and gets you on your way.

Ideally, for a sports car/race car, you'd like an engine that produces the most force (torque) higher up in the rev range. This way you can better utilize the gears in the driveline for maximum acceleration.
 
Basically gears are a multiplyer of torque, and any vehicle in each gear is speed limited by its peak rpm capability. Hence why most vehicles need 5-6 gears.
 
Basically gears are a multiplyer of torque, and any vehicle in each gear is speed limited by its peak rpm capability. Hence why most vehicles need 5-6 gears.

Bingo!

Greater multiplication = greater torque. With some simple math and a list of given gear ratios (including final drive) you can figure out which cars have the greater wheel torque.

Years ago I was quite surprised that a stock WRX has greater wheel torque in 2nd gear (what you're usually in when auto-x) than a Mustang Cobra R. Maths are funny that way
 
Looks like its been explained really well so far. Another thing is that when two cars have the same horsepower rating, but different torque, the one with more torque generally is going to be the one with broader powerband. Take something like a 2.0T GTI or Cobalt SS/SC and compare it to my car ('08 Civic Si). All three make roughly 200hp through 2L four cylinders, but the GTI and Cobalt have boost. My car has 140lb-ft of torque, the other two are around 200lb-ft. The VTEC changeover in my car is at 5800rpm, above the magic 5252 where torque and horsepower are equal. Peak power comes in at 7800rpm, peak torque at 6100. If one would compare the dyno charts of the Civic and the other two, past 5800 they are going to look similar. The boosted cars are running out of revs so they will probably be starting to flatten out, but if you look at the torque you'll see that they peaked way earlier (207lb-ft from 1800-5000 in the GTI) and will be dropping off quickly from here.


The point of all that? The car that, on paper, has more peak horsepower and torque, can easily lose a race to a car with similar peak power but way less torque, if it has the gears and revs to make up for it. There won't be a big difference between the Si and GTI when both are revving high. But the GTI's wide torque curve means that coming out of a turn out from a dead stop, the extra low end and midrange are going to show.


Hopefully you can make some sense of that.
 
Bingo!

Greater multiplication = greater torque. With some simple math and a list of given gear ratios (including final drive) you can figure out which cars have the greater wheel torque.

Years ago I was quite surprised that a stock WRX has greater wheel torque in 2nd gear (what you're usually in when auto-x) than a Mustang Cobra R. Maths are funny that way


Yep, thats why thrust curves are important, because it works out gears/rpm/torque and gives you thrust measured in lbs at the wheels.

You could have a stupidly low 1st gear that offered 10 times the thrust of your cars normal 1st gear but it would have a top speed 10 times lower. ;-)

Allot of americans like to have a go at low torque high rpm engines, but having a higher rpm motor can allow for lower gearing, thus increasing thrust at the wheel.
 
Walked in late. Good explanations, Bruther and PAPPACLART! 👍

I think the confusion with most people is that cars are always sold on the basis of horsepower and torque peaks... which matter very little in terms of how quick a car will actually get from point A to point B.

What really matters is the average of torque or horsepower over the rev range, and how this is multiplied through the gearing. In general, you want the most torque as high up in the rev range as possible, to allow you to use better gearing and torque multiplication.

But not knowing the gearing, what you want to be looking at is the power under the curve... and that's best expressed in average bhp... because you can have two cars with the same average torque, but one will still be faster than the other. Average bhp on the other hand, more accurately reflects which car will be more urgent when both cars are driven via the same set of gears.
 
So if I understand correct, horsepower is more critical in high rpms and torque in low? Like the two extremes F1 vs tractor, speed vs towing capacity?
For example the Lanz Bulldog has 45hp at 800rpm!! that means torque of 395Nm
a F1 car has 800hp at 18.000rpm which is 312Nm of torque.

btw tha Lanz Bulldog is the best tractor ever :D I love this engine sound of the one cylinder with 12liter capacity
 
torque is how much power something has, horsepower is how fast it can reach that power.

Actually, that's reversed. Torque is what affects acceleration. That's why they say torquey cars have "grunt" - they are good a getting the load up to speed quickly.

What do you mean by auto-x ??

Autox or auto-x is short for autocross, which is a type of solo racing similar to gymkhana. A small course is set up on a parking lot using safety cones, and cars run through it for the fastest time. There is a thread on this board about it, which has pictures and videos.
 
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