Which cars in GT5 sounded realistic that should be in GT6 unchanged

[Foxiol]

People trying to justify the awful engine sounds that we have in our beloved GT5 makes me sick really. As much as i love this game and the series come on people.

The quality of the general sound in GT5 is amazing, on replays and when you change cameras, all works good or better said...it worked perfectly until update 2.06.
Why until 2.06? Because now we have the problem with the mix of the sounds when we try to pass the AI...we can barely listen to our engine and that is bad of course.

BUT again the quality is still there.

Also but we need to talk is about the pure realistic engine sounds and that is what it is totally wrong in the game.

The idea is to not have to do stuff with our sound systems at all to compensate some of the missing bits of the engine. Yeah put your volume at max and brake your ears with it and perhaps it sounds more close to the crazy loud sounds that race cars do.

But no we don´t have to do that...i play other games as Race07/GTR Evolution and you have all the missing sounds...one of the most missed in GT5 and in all GT history is the INTAKE sounds when you lift the gas, gearbox sounds...we don´t have any.

It´s all digitalized or recreated but it loose all the real components of the real samples that they should have. (Take a look at intro video´s and all GT5 promo videos, that is real sounding cars not what we actually have...)

And actually i made test with regular volume, an excellent 5.1 Sony sound system connected via optical fiver...and i must say that at low RPM´s almost every car sounds right but after 2.000 to 4.000 RPM´s mark the sounds goes crazy with that awful known "vacuum cleaner sound" which is the digitalized sound that they created using the "real samples". (i believe they use real samples because they have every start-up sounds in the game...actually the only thing that sounds realistic)

But there is an example with the Mazada 787b that everybody believes that it sounds right but if you pay attention it sounds good but the RPM´s in idle it is a little bit speeded up and not as it should be.

I was thinking that it sounded good till i saw the sound in Forza 4 and then again made a comparison between the real sound video and both games. In Forza 4 the 787b idle sound is even more accurate and RPM´s sounds at the same level or ratio as the real car while on GT5 it sounds speeded up.
Then both games make a mistake with the sounds because in GT5 at high revs still has the awful digitalized sound and in Forza 4 they added the awful "WROOMM" sound that makes almost every car sounds the same or have some kind of same "WRRROOOM" sound...that to me is stup**.

On PC some simulators mostly coming from SIMBIN games that have the actual realistic samples introduced in the game as in GTLegends/Race07/GTR Evolution and now they worked for 3 years to make a new engine called RendR engine for Raceroom Racing Experience which is a free to race game and sounds are incredible made by an incredible sound engineer.

In game sounds from a BMW 134 Judd V8...yes it has a F1 engine.


Intake, doppler effects...everything...they worked 3 years for this. See the difference?

 

[mikecustom]

Why is this thread still running?, it's obvious that all sounds must, MUST be improved, next time, somebody will create a thread titled ''Standard cars should stay''.
Nothing, from GT5 should stay they way it is for GT6, EVERYTHING needs improvement

 

[mikecustom]

As I've said before the C6 Z06! Also the GTR sounds realistic and so does the newer Impreza's as they are the Japanese models with the smaller higher revving 2.0 engine which is not as deep and rumbly as the 2.5 is!

You need to play other games, not a single car in GT5 sounds good or realistic, seriously, Every single game gets better sound than GT

 

[1241Penguin]

As I've said before the C6 Z06! Also the GTR sounds realistic and so does the newer Impreza's as they are the Japanese models with the smaller higher revving 2.0 engine which is not as deep and rumbly as the 2.5 is!

How about Miura? Zonda C12S 7.3? Lister Storm? Aston DB9 (Premium, don't know about the standard one)? 458? LFA? XKR? ZR1? 787B?

Well, The final 4 listed should be tweaked a bit, but they're still relatively close to real sound.

The LFA sounds pretty close and so does the Aston V12 vantage

How about this. Before you go around spouting random stuff, why don't you post a video of a comparison between real life and GT5?

It's quite apparent that you guys have not heard these cars before, not even on YouTube.

 

[Madertus]

All my suggestions were made upon either comparing the cars to YT vids or to real life. And another thread here on GTP.

If you're rejecting someone else's idea, don't be 'JUST NO.' about it. I always do research about what I'm about to post.

But whatever, here are the videos to support my suggestions:

Lister Storm V12 Race Car:


Skip to 7:40


Aston DB9:




Zonda (skip to 2:02):




Miura:


skip to 5:05


Anything else before you throw some mud at me?

 

[1241Penguin]

Sounds similar to me...

......

The "tweaks" needed to improve the sound are "tweaks" to the sound recording technique they use, not the sounds they currently have. I have my doubts on whether PD actually records the full RPM range on all of their cars. And when they don't, they need to make something up to cover that up. If they don't, it will sound like the car is at 3000 RPM when in fact the engine is revving twice as fast. Like this for example:



Alternatively, you can have a car that suffers at the top end:



You can also have a car that has 100% computer made sound when they've accidentally lost their recording:



Though I personally would prefer to have a car that sounds like the real thing:

 

[Griffith500]

...

In game sounds from a BMW 134 Judd V8...yes it has a F1 engine.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDNGdwc3mIo

Intake, doppler effects...everything...they worked 3 years for this. See the difference?

It's a Judd KV, which is an old Formula 3000 V8 (expanded to 3.4 litres in this case, much like the old Zytek A1 GP engines), developed from the F1 engines they made in the late '80s (3.5 litre). Howerver, at that time F1 V8s didn't scream because they didn't rev high enough - and neither does the KV in the same intake / exhaust configuration you find on F1 engines (like it was in the 3-series bodied car Georg Plasa used to run). What makes the KV scream in the "134" is the single-exit exhaust, in the exact same way the HSV-010 screams. Interestingly, the intake is hard to hear on the Honda, but it gives away the much lower engine revs (than F1) when you can hear it; the same is true of the 134.



And no, they haven't included intake explicitly in the external views (it's definitely there in the interior, though); it's only present very slightly thanks to the reverb in the recordings, which are exhaust dominated even on approach, unlike the real car (which is intake dominated when it's facing you, except for some reverb bleed of the exhaust). You might notice that the exhaust note sounds a bit like the later BRM Type 15 with the twin exhaust (8 cylinders each, when they're all firing at least - compare 16 cylinders feeding one pipe at similar engine speeds), and the intake much like this or this, or this or these.

Don't get me wrong, they are excellent samples, but it's still missing a crucial component of the character in the external view (maybe loop-able recordings are hard to come by for that car). The audio control does seem to be very good in that preview, too.

 

[ENTERSANDMAN13]

Holy links. Why do i think that this thread will get locked soon?

 

[Foxiol]

(which is intake dominated when it's facing you, except for some reverb bleed of the exhaust).
Don't get me wrong, they are excellent samples, but it's still missing a crucial component of the character in the external view (maybe loop-able recordings are hard to come by for that car). The audio control does seem to be very good in that preview, too.

Well still those are the best sounds in the market *period* and that engine is still new so imagine what they can do.

"intake dominating when it´s facing you" : Yeah, i know what you mean but still we need to try that game and see it running because we have just that video with the sounds. Maybe (on PC we can) we could do something with the mix as we can do on every PC simulator, and choose how many sounds we want and the volume of each, which can give it (if we have it in the external sound probably low) the intake sound by lower the dominant exhaust sound.

We´ll see.

Also i see that some people tries to justify GT5 sounds and i, as a fan of the series, think that is the worst thing that we can do if we want for PD to do something about it.

Quality is really good but we need real samples in action not digitalized. As Race Room Racing Experience...and i am not going to stop with the argument till we see something.

Funny thing is that we have intake sounds in GT5 trailers...

It has to be the hardware or just for having 80% of standard cars in the game they let the sound equal to the majority.
It´s the only explanation that i can find. Making a realistic game to put digitalized recreated sounds, it just not logic to me...yes having in consideration the current hardware. But still...

About the BMW 134 Judd V8...but still that engine was from an old F1 car, despite the technical data that you gave me. 👍

I saw him and Hillclimbs with the old BMW too.

 

[Ignition]

Lamborghini LP560, Ferrari F40, Mazda MX5's and Pagani Zonda C12 are all fairly accurate and I don't have a problem with their sounds. Not really looked into any others though.

 

[ak101]

The LFA sounds pretty close and so does the Aston V12 vantage

Noticeably the Lexus LFA does sound quite like the real-life car.

 

[Griffith500]

Well still those are the best sounds in the market *period* and that engine is still new so imagine what they can do.

No game has the "best sounds". They might have the best compromise for your ears, but that's going to vary from person to person. And before anyone jumps on that and interprets it as my saying that GT5 could be considered the best if it suits your tastes (aside from that being perfectly plausible and acceptable, to the open minded) I don't consider them the best in terms of my overall experience. I personally "expect" better than anything that is currently available, largely because I know that in some games a few simple tweaks could improve the sounds quite substantially. Nobody has managed to join all the dots up yet.

"intake dominating when it´s facing you" : Yeah, i know what you mean but still we need to try that game and see it running because we have just that video with the sounds. Maybe (on PC we can) we could do something with the mix as we can do on every PC simulator, and choose how many sounds we want and the volume of each, which can give it (if we have it in the external sound probably low) the intake sound by lower the dominant exhaust sound.

We´ll see.

No, it should sound like the real car if "realistic" is your aim - the sources should be properly balanced against each other for all listening positions, and then only the general loudness / attenuation properties should be variable for different (real-world) listening environments. If it's like older Simbin games, there will be one set of samples for exterior (probably monophonic, using "3D positioning" - i.e. monopole-like radiation) and one set for interior (stereophonic, static mix), and it seems in this case the exterior is only exhaust (because there's potentially only one sound source in the game).

Also i see that some people tries to justify GT5 sounds and i, as a fan of the series, think that is the worst thing that we can do if we want for PD to do something about it.

Justification for the sounds being bad in some areas is perfectly acceptable, as long as they're legitimate justifications - don't fall into the trap of discounting any praise aimed at PD, either, that's no better than discounting any negative criticism. Understanding is the most important thing, and it's something people lack in general, probably made harder by a dearth of information in this particular case.

Quality is really good but we need real samples in action not digitalized. As Race Room Racing Experience...and i am not going to stop with the argument till we see something.

But Race Room's sounds are digitised (because computers are digital devices). Don't use words outside of their intended meaning lest you be responsible for misinforming people. You need to expand your vocabulary to be able to better convey the actual problems with the sounds, and not some imagined / misrepresented version of it. Complaining about the wrong thing helps no-one.

Funny thing is that we have intake sounds in GT5 trailers...

Dubbing with natural recordings. Interactive playback is a totally different affair; consider the difference between a recording of someone playing a violin, and a sample-synth violin to be used to play anything in any combination of ways. In a game, unless we're not interactively controlling the car, we always need the latter (synthesis). Also, compare ordinary sample-synth with physical modeling. The future, in my opinion, lies with a hybrid approach (sample-led timbre with physically-led articulation and expression).

It has to be the hardware or just for having 80% of standard cars in the game they let the sound equal to the majority.
It´s the only explanation that i can find. Making a realistic game to put digitalized recreated sounds, it just not logic to me...yes having in consideration the current hardware. But still...

The idea that there were too many cars to make all the sounds "Premium" (and PD didn't want there to be a split in sound quality) is plausible only if there is to be a large change in the sounds as "Premiums", but it is still my second-favoured theory at this point. Either that or they are planning a sea change in customisability and fidelity that just doesn't work yet on the current hardware - my absolute favourite theory. Of course, they don't necessarily need better hardware to deliver what other games deliver, but that's still not good enough for me (joining all the dots, remember).

About the BMW 134 Judd V8...but still that engine was from an old F1 car, despite the technical data that you gave me. 👍

I saw him and Hillclimbs with the old BMW too.

I'd simply guessed you'd initially been led to believe it was an F1 engine because of the sound, and of course the KV was a "Formula" engine of sorts, but the engine in its usual form (including the preceding F1 engines themselves) sounds very little like the current F1 V8s because of the much lower engine speeds.


In other words, my answer to this thread's question, in a similar vein to other posts I've read, is that the current sound implementation (pure sampling) needs to be turned into something a little more "hybrid".

 

[Tahli462]

Having a bit of Cargasm in this thread.

 

[Foxiol]

Griffith...just one thing to point out here...you know what you are talking and probably your English is way better than mine...but you are not talking with a child, maybe in my language things change (Spanish). But i do my best.

You talk in a serious technical perspective and i use simple words just to put my own personal perspective about what matters here...the sounds. Which despite all that technical talk here, still sounds are not realistic as much as people wants.

I agree with you in all the rest, and yeah, no game is perfect yet, but it is like you are trying to justify by finding the little details that for example those other games have and then put GT in the middle like "hey, sound is not that bad if the other game missed the intake sound too"...(it seems)

We can´t do anything about it just give a criticism with personal points of view.

My opinion is as valid as yours. And the rest are valid too, but some seems to "justify" this or that.

I´m objective and i am not trying to impose anything, just to be clear.

You and me don´t need to discuss, because both knows that sounds in the game are wrong. Good quality but non realistic is different...and yeah, all sounds in games are digitalized but not in a "bad form" like here. That´s why this thread exist.

Making sounds in a game is more complex than our talking here...👍

P.S: At least that BMW Judd V8 engine uses technology from F1...and no, not just because of the sound i thought that this car came from F1. RPM´s is what gives the sound to the car...you don´t need a F1 engine to make a car sounds like it but you need some of the tech if you don´t want to brake it at high revs.

 

[RedBaron]

Please, none of them. Every car of GT6 deserves to sound through new and very improved sound engine.

 

[Griffith500]

Griffith...just one thing to point out here...you know what you are talking and probably your English is way better than mine...but you are not talking with a child, maybe in my language things change (Spanish). But i do my best.

I had taken the language difference into account, and I'm not complaining about your use of the English language, which is generally excellent. I doubt "digitised" has an ambiguous translation in either direction, though, and it's a totally incorrect observation about what makes the sounds "bad" in GT5 - it is not the digitisation process that causes what I perceive to be its major issues. That's largely because it occurs during recording nowadays since it's all done on computers anyway (see Analogue-to-Digital Converter); the start-up sounds are digitised in exactly the same way the rest of the sounds are, for instance.

This "digital sounding" thing is a hangover from when the processing power just wasn't there to be able to represent sounds in high enough quality when first transitioning from "analogue". Our hearing is good to 20 kHz, so we need a minimum of 40 kHz sampling rate, plus headroom -> 44.1 kHz. We also need adequate "bit-depth" for amplitude representation, namely a minimum of 16 bits -> 96 dB or so of dynamic range; our hearing can cover 140 dB, although not all at once - 80 dB is normal. Most professional recording is 48 or 96 kHz (we can't hear these higher frequencies as pure tones, but we can "feel" them and hear their interference patterns) and 24 bit (144 dB) today.

With inadequate sampling rates, you get aliasing, which should really be filtered out, so that you're just "band limited" instead - i.e. the highest frequency you can record is limited by the sampling rate, so lower sampling rates sound "duller". With inadequate bit-depth you get quantisation errors, another form of aliasing (when the analogue value falls between values that can be represented digitally, and can also be filtered, less successfully) - you don't tend to hear these phenomena much outside of highly compressed media, certainly not in raw recordings. For instance, this is 4-bit audio.

So what you think is "digitisation", is probably something else. If you're talking about the "thin" sounding samples at high rpm, that's because of short samples and occurs regardless of the digital quality. If you're talking about the weird pitch bending, that's because that's not how real engine sounds change pitch (many harmonics stay still as engine speeds rise; pitch bending moves them all regardless.) This applies to all samplers, using more samples across the rev range mitigates that to some extent. If you're talking about "unnatural" sounds, then I can agree that it's odd (the Impreza Rally car, for instance) - but that has nothing to do with digitisation, more like omitted detail / sources in playback that would balance it and sound more natural as a result.

You talk in a serious technical perspective and i use simple words just to put my own personal perspective about what matters here...the sounds. Which despite all that technical talk here, still sounds are not realistic as much as people wants.

Sound is technical as well as subjective and emotional, that cannot be avoided. If you miss off any one of those aspects of our experience and interaction (at all levels) with it, you're not getting the full picture - just something to bear in mind.

I agree with you in all the rest, and yeah, no game is perfect yet, but it is like you are trying to justify by finding the little details that for example those other games have and then put GT in the middle like "hey, sound is not that bad if the other game missed the intake sound too"...(it seems)

You're still missing the point - there is no benefit for GT to change its sound engine and approach to copy another game when a) its sound engine is already superior and b) those other games don't make the most of their own sound engine anyway (much as GT doesn't its own).

And I fail to see why people see my posts and immediately think I'm a so-called "apologist" - as I said, do not dismiss anything you perceive to be "praise" for PD out of hand, as it's no different to similarly dismissing any negative criticism. I'll be honest, I like to play devil's advocate - largely because I'm acutely aware of my own contradictions and misconceptions that it's fun to see others do it, too; I also tend to make the mistake in assuming that everyone is as addicted to learning as I am.
There is no benefit for me to put in another emotionally-loaded opinion of sounds in games in general, when I can instead offer at least a glimpse of the technical aspects behind it from an attempted stance of impartiality.

I am not, by any means, saying that because other games have faults that there is no need for GT to improve. Never have I ever extolled such a sentiment. I want all games to improve - when I hear a game doing something "right", I'll say so; just the same as I'll criticise it for repeating the same mistakes of the last 15 years or more!

We can´t do anything about it just give a criticism with personal points of view.

My opinion is as valid as yours. And the rest are valid too, but some seems to "justify" this or that.

I´m objective and i am not trying to impose anything, just to be clear.

Nobody said your opinion was invalid, per se, just that your own personal justifications for your cited issues with GT5's sounds weren't technically sound. I'm not saying that people can't discuss this if they don't know anything about the Helmholtz equation or have a degree in psychoacoustics (which would automatically exclude myself), but it will help everyone if they at least try to educate themselves on the subject - even just a little bit - before blaming the wrong thing for their inferior experience. If only because they'll know what to ask for in future. (I hope you can see the parallels with other areas of discussion - notably politics in general - which is why I like to assume it goes without saying.)

I'm afraid there's no such thing as "objective" when dealing with your experience and preferences for sound in games and real life - they don't call it psychoacoustics for nothing.

You and me don´t need to discuss, because both knows that sounds in the game are wrong. Good quality but non realistic is different...and yeah, all sounds in games are digitalized but not in a "bad form" like here. That´s why this thread exist.

Making sounds in a game is more complex than our talking here...👍

P.S: At least that BMW Judd V8 engine uses technology from F1...and no, not just because of the sound i thought that this car came from F1. RPM´s is what gives the sound to the car...you don´t need a F1 engine to make a car sounds like it but you need some of the tech if you don´t want to brake it at high revs.

But this engine doesn't rev much above 10k rpm. The point I made is that feeding one pipe with 8 cylinders at 10k sounds like 4 cylinders in one pipe (F1) at 20k. It's also why I linked to that Foucart V16, since it sounds like 4 cylinders at 48k rpm (i.e. it revs to about 12k). This 16 cylinder engine revs to 10k, but its exhausts are in groups of four, so it doesn't scream like that V16. Like I said, sound is fundamentally "technical".

What that means for this car is that there is a unique harmonic structure ("technical" speak for timbre, I suppose) owing to the fact that the exhaust sound is high pitched (minimum 4 times crank speed), but the overall sound is grounded by the intake, which contains a lot of half-crank-frequency lumpiness. Much in the same way that a straight six with an equal-length 6-1 exhaust is unique (like this), in that the minimum 3rd-order exhaust is modulated by the half-order component in the intake, and other sources. Without those sources (and their effect on the exhaust), you'd struggle to distinguish between such an engine at 4000 rpm and a similar four-cylinder at 6000 rpm. Thus, omitting the intake on the 134 for external sounds means it doesn't sound like itself any more (and is also why so few cars sound right in GT).

 

[U700]

All my suggestions were made upon either comparing the cars to YT vids or to real life. And another thread here on GTP.

If you're rejecting someone else's idea, don't be 'JUST NO.' about it. I always do research about what I'm about to post.

But whatever, here are the videos to support my suggestions:

Lister Storm V12 Race Car:


Skip to 7:40




Anything else before you throw some mud at me?

you really think the Listers sound the same????

GT's Lister sound horrible! the real Lister on the other hand sound awesome!

 

[Madertus]

I never said they sound the same.

I only think Lister's sound should remain unchanged or slightly changed. What they did to it in GT4 is pretty much unexcusable.

 

[Auraxir]

Ford MKIV (earporn) along with Mazda 787B

 

[zedextreme8177]

^ Disagree, especially regarding the 787B:

 

[Auraxir]

Well the 787B sounds a little similar to the real life one, not perfect but similar

 

[Crowood]

Well the 787B sounds a little similar to the real life one, not perfect but similar

Only in the very low revs...high revs is the same sound like the Murcielago with race exhaust....

The R34 Skyline with sport exhaust sounds pretty accurate (only shifting is too clean) to me.

 

[ak101]

Kaz thinks all cars in GT5 sound too accurate, some of them do but most of them certainly don't. Personally I think Kaz has little concern to improve the engine and exhaust sounds for future GT titles

 

[Griffith500]

Actually, now that I've though about it more, I'll take that comment as an admission of a "problem". And that's better than what we've had before from PD regarding the sounds. It just depends on how they act on it (or have already been acting on it).

 

[MoLiEG]

Kaz thinks all cars in GT5 sound too accurate, some of them do but most of them certainly don't. Personally I think Kaz has little concern to improve the engine and exhaust sounds for future GT titles

Sad but true.

IMO, only 2 cars deserve to keep their current sound: Cizeta V16 and Lexus LFA.

 

[Madertus]

^Cizeta? McLaren F1 deserves it as well then, its sound is exactly the same as Cizeta's

 

[TakumiFuji01]

The RX7 Spirit R as stock didn't sound fake at all. It sound real to me.

 

[Griffith500]

The RX7 Spirit R as stock didn't sound fake at all. It sound real to me.

There are numerous such examples, but perhaps some of those vocal about sounds tend to be the ones who just put the racing exhaust on everything, which has always been hit-and-(mostly-)miss sound-wise in GT games.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

They all need to be improved with more details, here are some videos to show how PD should make the car sounds like :

I have posted one of the video on another GT5 sound thread, but the other 2 will satisfy your ears

All the same car, R33 GTR with HKS Hi Flow Muffler/ Screamer Pipe, watch them all.







If PD can make the car sound with such level of details, I'll be happy:tup:

 

[TakumiFuji01]

There are numerous such examples, but perhaps some of those vocal about sounds tend to be the ones who just put the racing exhaust on everything, which has always been hit-and-(mostly-)miss sound-wise in GT games.

The Racing Exhaust for the Spirit R just sounds like a 20B Rotary...o.O