White Privilege

[Scaff]

The term is divisive so I don't see any good in using it ...

As if stopping using it is going to resolve the situation?

and how can one abandon something that is dependant on ethnic breakup of a nation?

Um what?

 

[Dobermann92]

I have hard time keeping up with this thread, but I tell my opinion about it. White man can be poor too. They don't feel that they have privilege, they even called by the name "white thrash". Of course because of cultural and historical reasons white people are more likely to get better paying jobs and services in the US and in Eurpoe because of the human group mentality. But I doubt that the opposite wouldn't happen in for example Africa regarding to the whites in any of the country in it.

We love the idea of belonging to a specific group which we think that superior than the others. Just look at any sport fandom or religious group. This we cannot really change, but we can suppress. We divide along the basis of race because it is mostly obvious because it is the thing everybody can see without talking to a person.

Are mexicans considered white? Because in the US I think there is more prejudice against mexicans than black people, because some folks see them as illegal immigrants regardless if they came to the country by legal means. What would be the solution to it?

I think we should treat everybody as they are individuals and grant the respect to them regardless of race. We can show people that not all of white/black etc. people are like they know or experienced and we can tell them to treat others nicely if they know nothing about them. Forced diversity on the other hand would just provide an outrage and shove off more people.

I think therefore the term white privilege is meaningless because it considers whites as a group which can be strictly identified by other things than the amount of melanin they have, which isn't the case.
Rich privilege on the other hand is a thing in life, regardless of skin colour, and we can define it by setting an income/wealth bar. It should be set on a country by country basis at least to compensate the differencies of more and less developed countries.

 

[novcze]

As if stopping using it is going to resolve the situation?

The situation or the practice how you call it, can be resolved how?

And would it be better if we throw in racial categorization when most people have no idea what white privilege means?

 

[Scaff]

I have hard time keeping up with this thread, but I tell my opinion about it. White man can be poor too. They don't feel that they have privilege, they even called by the name "white thrash". Of course because of cultural and historical reasons white people are more likely to get better paying jobs and services in the US and in Eurpoe because of the human group mentality. But I doubt that the opposite wouldn't happen in for example Africa regarding to the whites in any of the country in it.

We love the idea of belonging to a specific group which we think that superior than the others. Just look at any sport fandom or religious group. This we cannot really change, but we can suppress. We divide along the basis of race because it is mostly obvious because it is the thing everybody can see without talking to a person.

Are mexicans considered white? Because in the US I think there is more prejudice against mexicans than black people, because some folks see them as illegal immigrants regardless if they came to the country by legal means. What would be the solution to it?

I think we should treat everybody as they are individuals and grant the respect to them regardless of race. We can show people that not all of white/black etc. people are like they know or experienced and we can tell them to treat others nicely if they know nothing about them. Forced diversity on the other hand would just provide an outrage and shove off more people.

I think therefore the term white privilege is meaningless because it considers whites as a group which can be strictly identified by other things than the amount of melanin they have, which isn't the case.
Rich privilege on the other hand is a thing in life, regardless of skin colour, and we can define it by setting an income/wealth bar. It should be set on a country by country basis at least to compensate the differencies of more and less developed countries.

Almost nothing can be delineated in the manner you are suggesting and that includes wealth. As such claiming that ethnicity can be ignored from a privilege perspective is simply not true.

In the US Mexicans would not be classed as white:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

The situation or the practice how you call it, can be resolved how?

Education.

A real understanding of genetics and how race is a social construct would be the starting point as it the cause for a massive amount of confusion.

An understanding that as humans we all carry bias, much of it subconscious, why we do this, how we can deal with it and what it means, and contrary to what Ben Shapiro claimed as a strawman it doesn't automatically mean people are racist (or sexist, homophobic, etc.).

It also can change, its not that long ago that Italian immigrants to the US were treated in a similar way to how Mexican immigrants are today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism

And would it be better if we throw in racial categorization when most people have no idea what white privilege means?

No it would be better that people were educated about it.

 

[Danoff]

Those of us who keep talking about "this one" (white privilege) do so not because it's "more important," but because it's the only form of privilege that people, for some reason, consistently deny the existence of.

No, nobody in this thread has ever denied that racism exists. It's not actually debated. The reason this one keeps coming up is because of the absolutely absurd level of focus on this subject as opposed to every other one of those subjects.

 

[Groundfish]

C'mon, man. If you're gonna lecture us all as being too dumb to respond with anything other than our "programming," do better than this.



So it is just hard work and nothing more. Black people face poverty at a 2.5x higher rate because they're lazy. I've asked you three times now to directly say otherwise, and you refuse.

My gosh do you think I am a racist?!
I would never say or think something so atrocious.
I will relay a piece of anecdotal evidence though.
My grandmother taught school in the inner city.
Now, she was appalled when many times the majority of female black students when asked why their homework was not completed replied with the same answer.

“Doesn’t matter I am gonna have babies and get welfare anyways”

That’s purely anecdotal, but absolutely true.

The question you asked me was offensive to me.

Edit
I just wanted to add.
Hard work is no guarantee in a free country.
But, it is the only avenue one has to have hope of life quality improvement.
Under communism it makes no difference.
Freedom provides at least hope over the predestined hopelessness of communism.
Ok, I am off my soapbox. Thanks for letting me vent a bit and reading the opinions.

 

[Scaff]

That’s purely anecdotal, but absolutely true.

Those two words shouldn't be used together.

Its hearsay at best and as an anecdote may have an element of truth to it, but to then expand that to a wider group says quite a lot about the biases the originator would seem to hold.

My eldest daughter had a friend at school, she was exactly the same, just wanted babies. Went out and did it, she's white. My daughter isn't white, is in the first year of her degree and has zero plans to have kids until she is in her 30's at least.

Fortunately I'm not daft enough to go and apply either of these personal positions to entire groups of people.

 

[huskeR32]

No, nobody in this thread has ever denied that racism exists.

White privilege != racism, I was talking about the former, and plenty of people in this thread have denied its existence.

 

[Danoff]

White privilege != racism, I was talking about the former, and plenty of people in this thread have denied its existence.

White privilege = racism.

White privilege is the notion that white people have something which is denied non-white people, and which they deserve - to be treated fairly without discrimination due to skin color. It is racism.

 

[Dobermann92]

Almost nothing can be delineated in the manner you are suggesting and that includes wealth. As such claiming that ethnicity can be ignored from a privilege perspective is simply not true.

In the US Mexicans would not be classed as white:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States


Education.

A real understanding of genetics and how race is a social construct would be the starting point as it the cause for a massive amount of confusion.

An understanding that as humans we all carry bias, much of it subconscious, why we do this, how we can deal with it and what it means, and contrary to what Ben Shapiro claimed as a strawman it doesn't automatically mean people are racist (or sexist, homophobic, etc.).

It also can change, its not that long ago that Italian immigrants to the US were treated in a similar way to how Mexican immigrants are today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism


No it would be better that people were educated about it.

People with more wealth can avoid harsh judgement easily. They can do what a poor person can't because they can use their money to corrupt others if they want to. (notice that this doesn't mean all people who are rich are like that)

Statistically mexicans aren't considere whites of course. But I was thinking about the average Joe.
On the other hand how do you classify a white person? A person with European origins? Then mexicans mostly would be considered as white. Are jewish people white? Because I've heard that they aren't yet their skin colour is white. What about those whose father was a jew and their mother was an englishwoman? What about mixed race people, like Obama? He was called by some in the black community as not ethnicly black.

I agree with you that education is a key. It is very important of course.
On the other hand most of the people don't really care about the underlying questions of it, so we have to keep the lessons easy to understand. (by the way the more intelligent the person is the less likely to be racist) I don't like Ben Shapiro either, he is just an oversensite conservative who is wrong on so many issues.

Of course it can change, but that is a long process and some of the more radicals (not you, I think you know whom I'm talking about) think that we can change the world by the day saying that from now on no racism exists and call it a day.

(Sorry I don't have the time right now to split your quote into pieces, I hope you can forgive me this)

 

[Scaff]

White privilege = racism.

White privilege is the notion that white people have something which is denied non-white people, and which they deserve - to be treated fairly without discrimination due to skin color. It is racism.

Sorry but no its not.

Its about inherent and subconscious bias, which is not racism but a factor that affects many different situations. Its perfectly possible to exhibit bias in a wider number of areas without being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Its in part because as humans we automatically find familiarity with those who are most like ourselves.

That White Privilege is inextricably linked to racism is the strawman that Ben Shapiro used and has been widely and repeatedly rebutted by those who actual study and work in this field.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry but no its not.

Its about inherent and subconscious bias, which is not racism but a factor that affects many different situations. Its perfectly possible to exhibit bias in a wider number of areas without being racist,

Not on the basis of skin color isn't not, that'd be racist.

That White Privilege is inextricably linked to racism is the strawman that Ben Shapiro used and has been widely and repeatedly rebutted by those who actual study and work in this field.

Look, you can't work your way out of this one. It's not possible. Let's try, we can go around the loop, but it's racism.

 

[huskeR32]

White privilege = racism

Racism may be one of the underlying components of white privilege, but they’re not the same thing.

You posted saying that many different forms of privilege exist, and we shouldn’t just focus on one.

I responded with an explanation of why we focus on just that one.

You came back with this:

No, nobody in this thread has ever denied that racism exists.

I never said that anybody denies racism, I said they deny white privilege.

 

[Danoff]

Racism may be one of the underlying components of white privilege, but they’re not the same thing.

You posted saying that many different forms of privilege exist, and we shouldn’t just focus on one.

I responded with an explanation of why we focus on just that one.

You came back with this:



I never said that anybody denies racism, I said they deny white privilege.

The only reason anybody denies white privilege is because they don't understand what the term means. The term suggests that it means that white people have it easy, or at least significantly easier, that they got some unfair helping hand. And people get confused when they hear that because they didn't have it easy, and want to explain why it is that they've gotten nothing that they didn't deserve, and have had to work hard, and have had setbacks. That's because they don't understand what is meant by "white privilege".

It is simply the privilege of not having to deal with the presumed baggage that comes with not being white... ie... wait for it.... racism!

 

[Dotini]

to be treated fairly

Does "to be treated fairly" mean equal outcomes?

 

[Danoff]

Does "to be treated fairly" mean equal outcomes?

Of course not.

 

[Dotini]

Of course not.

Didn't you read the knapsack?

 

[Scaff]

Not on the basis of skin color isn't not, that'd be racist.
Look, you can't work your way out of this one. It's not possible. Let's try, we can go around the loop, but it's racism.

All of which is based on the assumption (yours) that subconscious bias is racism in the same manner that overt hatred is racism, and I disagree that it is either that simple or can be that easily reduced.

Is some of the cause of subconscious bias a result of historic racism? I would agree that it is. Does that make all subconscious bias (and its subconscious bias that causes privilege in this context) racist? No it doesn't.

The vast majority of what we do as humans at a subconscious level is not driven by overt choices (obviously - but it seems to need saying) but by social conditioning from those we live around, work with and grew up with. Its how mob mentality and group 'othering' functions.

Now as bias can exist either from overt forms (someone is an actual racist and holds conscious views that non-white are inferior) or subconscious forms (someone who doesn't believe that non-white are inferior, but has never lived, worked or grew up around anyone that isn't white).

I have to say that I hold the view that to conflate White Privilege with Racism is a gross simplification and reductionist to a quite frankly absurd level. I also find it quite hard to believe that you (who I often disagree with - but have to date always respected your ability to critically think) would believe it can be reduced to such a degree.

 

[Danoff]

Didn't you read the knapsack?

Sure did.

All of which is based on the assumption (yours) that subconscious bias is racism in the same manner that overt hatred is racism,

What do you mean "in the same manner". They're both racism. Are they equivalent because of that? No not at all. Someone yelling the n-word might be a racist, but not in the same manner as someone who is committing genocide.

Does that make all subconscious bias (and its subconscious bias that causes privilege in this context) racist? No it doesn't.

Is it a bias based on skin color?

Now as bias can exist either from overt forms (someone is an actual racist and holds conscious views that non-white are inferior) or subconscious forms (someone who doesn't believe that non-white are inferior, but has never lived, worked or grew up around anyone that isn't white).

Can your subconscious bias be racist? Yes, yes it can.

I have to say that I hold the view that to conflate White Privilege with Racism is a gross simplification and reductionist to a quite frankly absurd level. I also find it quite hard to believe that you (who I often disagree with - but have to date always respected your ability to critically think) would believe it can be reduced to such a degree.

I just seem to be of the opinion that racism has a meaning. There is no need for the term "white privilege", and its accusational tone is what puts a lot of people off. If they understood what was really meant by it (racism), they'd be on board. If they understood what you want to restrict it to (subconscious racism), they'd still be on board. They rail against the notion that it means something else... something which would not be correct.

 

[Dotini]

racist

Is racist something only all white people inherently are? Is it theoretically possible people of other colors can be racists, too?

 

[Danoff]

Is racist something only all white people inherently are? Is it theoretically possible people of other colors can be racists, too?

Why of course! I'm sure you knew the answer to that question. Anyone can be racist. A person with white skin can even be racist against people with white skin. A person with dark skin can even be racist against people with dark skin.

 

[Dobermann92]

All of which is based on the assumption (yours) that subconscious bias is racism in the same manner that overt hatred is racism, and I disagree that it is either that simple or can be that easily reduced.

Is some of the cause of subconscious bias a result of historic racism? I would agree that it is. Does that make all subconscious bias (and its subconscious bias that causes privilege in this context) racist? No it doesn't.

The vast majority of what we do as humans at a subconscious level is not driven by overt choices (obviously - but it seems to need saying) but by social conditioning from those we live around, work with and grew up with. Its how mob mentality and group 'othering' functions.

Now as bias can exist either from overt forms (someone is an actual racist and holds conscious views that non-white are inferior) or subconscious forms (someone who doesn't believe that non-white are inferior, but has never lived, worked or grew up around anyone that isn't white).

I have to say that I hold the view that to conflate White Privilege with Racism is a gross simplification and reductionist to a quite frankly absurd level. I also find it quite hard to believe that you (who I often disagree with - but have to date always respected your ability to critically think) would believe it can be reduced to such a degree.

Please react to what I posted before.

If it is a subconscious bias then every person has that regardless of skin colour. So a black person has a bias against non-blacks, an asian has a bias against non-asians. So where is the white privilege in that? Whites aren't special in this regard.

 

[novcze]

Education.

ok

Its about inherent and subconscious bias, which is not racism but a factor that affects many different situations. Its perfectly possible to exhibit bias in a wider number of areas without being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Its in part because as humans we automatically find familiarity with those who are most like ourselves.

Yes, but this bias is in all humans, so why call it white privilege or is subconscious bias of people with different skin color less important?

 

[Danoff]

If it is a subconscious bias then every person has that regardless of skin colour. So a black person has a bias against non-blacks, an asian has a bias against non-asians. So where is the white privilege in that? Whites aren't special in this regard.

...and just to be clear, in case anyone doesn't agree, a subconscious preference for your own skin color (regardless of what it is) is racist. And yes you are biologically predisposed to that, and no you do not have to execute that biological predisposition.

 

[Dobermann92]

...and just to be clear, in case anyone doesn't agree, a subconscious preference for your own skin color (regardless of what it is) is racist. And yes you are biologically predisposed to that, and no you do not have to execute that biological predisposition.

What about dating though? If somebody is dating only white girls because he finds them the most attractive is he racist?

 

[Scaff]

What do you mean "in the same manner". They're both racism. Are they equivalent because of that? No not at all. Someone yelling the n-word might be a racist, but not in the same manner as someone who is committing genocide.

An assumption I disagree with.

Is it a bias based on skin color?

Its a bias based on difference.

Can your subconscious bias be racist? Yes, yes it can.

And it can also not be racist.

Have you ever taken any of the tests associated with Project Implicit (the findings based on 30 years of data from which disagree with you), give some of them a go.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

I just seem to be of the opinion that racism has a meaning. There is no need for the term "white privilege", and its accusational tone is what puts a lot of people off. If they understood what was really meant by it (racism), they'd be on board. If they understood what you want to restrict it to (subconscious racism), they'd still be on board. They rail against the notion that it means something else... something which would not be correct.

Which again is reliant on your assumption being true.

If that was the case why under testing (and I've linked to the tests above) do some African Americans have a slight preference for White People over Black people? Based on your logic is because they are racist against themselves.

Does an overlap between Racism and White Privilege exist? Yes it does, happy to acknowledge that. Does that make them absolutist the same thing? Not at all.

As for the accusational tone of the term, why is it any more accusational that any other form of privilege, or is it simply because those who seem to object to it have labeled it in that way.

ok
Yes, but this bias is in all humans, so why call it white privilege or is subconscious bias of people with different skin color less important?

Feel free to call it White Bias if you like.

If it makes you more comfortable and able to discuss the topic I really don't mind (however I also don't understand the objection to the term, and I'm White, plenty of subjects and items have numerous names).

 

[Danoff]

An assumption I disagree with.

Which part? The part where a bias in favor of a particular skin color is racist? It's fairly tautological.

Its a bias based on difference.

...in this case, in skin color.

Have you ever taken any of the tests associated with Project Implicit (the findings based on 30 years of data from which disagree with you), give some of them a go.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Ok, I will in a bit. If it turns out that I have some racist preferences does that make me wrong?

If that was the case why under testing (and I've linked to the tests above) do some African Americans have a slight preference for White People over Black people? Based on your logic is because they are racist against themselves.

You don't think that's possible? For a black person to have racist leanings against other black people? Of course that's possible. Same for white people.

Does that make them absolutist the same thing? Not at all.

The absolutist part here is where you seem to think that racism is equivalent in all forms and shades. It's a very broad term that encompasses mass murder and awkward glances.

As for the accusational tone of the term, why is it any more accusational that any other form of privilege, or is it simply because those who seem to object to it have labeled it in that way.

Most people don't label other privileges. We don't walk around saying "oh you're hot privileged". We don't call people who can see "sight privileged". That's why.

 

[Scaff]

Which part? The part where a bias in favor of a particular skin color is racist? It's fairly tautological.

...in this case, in skin color.

Ok, I will in a bit. If it turns out that I have some racist preferences does that make me wrong?

You don't think that's possible? For a black person to have racist leanings against other black people? Of course that's possible. Same for white people.

The absolutist part here is where you seem to think that racism is equivalent in all forms and shades. It's a very broad term that encompasses mass murder and awkward glances.

So you have gone for the most extreme form of reduction-ism.

I'm also not sure how you have manged to create an impression for yourself that I have an absolutist view on racism. My wife and children are non white. I'm well aware of the different degrees it can come in, and would appreciate it if you would not use such a lazy and assumptive line of argument with me.

However it does allow me to cite it back at you, bias is a very broad term that encompasses direct and overt racism and slight preference.

Dictionary definitions however do disagree, as the definition of Racism is that of a belief in the superiority or inferiority of one race over another. Where as Bias is inclination or prejudice against another group and doesn't require a belief in superiority or inferiority (nor does Prejudice).

Most people don't label other privileges. We don't walk around saying "oh you're hot privileged". We don't call people who can see "sight privileged". That's why.

So your not aware that it can and is used in other cases so it doesn't count?

I'm surprised you have never heard it mentioned that straight, white, males are the most privileged group in western societies. That's three straight off in a rather common and well used phrase.

 

[Exorcet]

We seem to agree that there is a problem even if how the best way to describe it isn't agreed upon. Maybe the focus should be on determining what we should do?

I don't use or hear the term privilege very much so I'm left to build a definition based on how other people use it, which varies quite a bit. This thread has helped flesh out the term but I think also shows that it can be interpreted or used in different ways. In any case, racial issues do exist and I think they're worth fighting against. What I don't feel to be the case is that race and other attributes directly contribute to discrimination on a societal scale (they certainly can on smaller scales, like between individuals) which is why I'm weary of things like affirmative action, which automatically increase a person's standing based on an arbitrary characteristic that they possesses.

Side note, I also took Scaff's test. I don't know what to think of it. I tried the weight bias only so far, my score was a moderate preference for slim people. I'll say that I certainly prefer fitness (differentiated from fit people) to not, but I can't think of it impacting my relationship with other people.

 

[Danoff]

So you have gone for the most extreme form of reduction-ism.

No?

I'm merely using language. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I'm also not sure how you have manged to create an impression for yourself that I have an absolutist view on racism. My wife and children are non white. I'm well aware of the different degrees it can come in, and would appreciate it if you would not use such a lazy and assumptive line of argument with me.

Your family doesn't have to be white, in fact you yourself don't even need to be white, for you to have an absolutist view on the word racism. You seem to think it only applies in very specific scenarios.

However it does allow me to cite it back at you, bias is a very broad term that encompasses direct and overt racism and slight preference.

Sure. It even applies in situations that include racism.

Dictionary definitions however do disagree, as the definition of Racism is that of a belief in the superiority or inferiority of one race over another.

In what context? Superior in terms of? You just described a bias.

Where as Bias is inclination or prejudice against another group and doesn't require a belief in superiority or inferiority (nor does Prejudice).

Prejudice against another group is an indication of superiority of that group for the purposes of the person with the prejudice.

For example, if I prefer a sandwich spreader for the purposes of spreading mayonnaise, I can consider the sandwich spreader superior for that purpose. Even without considering a sandwich spreader superior in all ways. Likewise an overtly, thorough, supremacist, racist can consider white people superior at thinking and black people superior at sports.

So your not aware that it can and is used in other cases so it doesn't count?

I'm aware that it can be used in those cases, I was answering your question.

I'm surprised you have never heard it mentioned that straight, white, males are the most privileged group in western societies.

Probably I'd go with naturally intelligent people being the most privileged group in western societies. Or maybe people who have the use of their extremities. Or maybe just people who can see. Definitely people who are not blind are up there for most privileged. Way beyond straight white male. We haven't had a blind president, for example. I wonder if there's ever been a blind CEO?

Edit:

Ah yes. There is one, but it's his company that he's CEO of. Not quite what I had in mind.