Who Owns Cummins? It's a Shocker.

[hawkeye122]

Forgot how much I enjoyed this part of the forum- been on Motorsport and Oppositelock too long I suppose.

Fact: Defenders are useful SUVs
Fact: Pickups have more storage space than SUV's
Supposition: The average trailer in the US weighs much more than one in the UK.
Fact: Pickups being discussed here are designed to tow large loads
Fact: A stock F250 or similar truck could tow more than a stock Defender
Fact: Both the Royal Army and the US Army/Marines are getting rid of their Defenders/Humvees in favor of MRAP's.
Fact: Military use =/= Great for civilian use

Informed Hypothesis: You can't carry 4 slabs of drywall, a couple dozen 2x4's (wood beams), and several sacks of concrete in a Land Rover (Defender or otherwise)

Confirmed theory: You can in a pickup.

Fact: Pickups have a larger track than Defenders
Supposition: This makes them unappealing in Europe, where roads are smaller.

Fact: You can carry a family, all their kit, and tow a large trailer in a pickup.
Question: How is this not "Getting the job done?"

Suggestion: Start learning about cars from Journalists, not Entertainers.
Additionally, stop taking the opinions from one show and your limited life experience as gospel. You sound a fool.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Funniest thing I've read all day!


On another note, how does a thread about Ford having a stake in Cummins turn into a Land Rover vs. US pickup truck thread?

You hope that an over zealous user from the UK with a Land Rover fetish joins a thread already entertaining the over zealous American user with a Ford fetish. And then you have the voice of reason @Zenith trying to get edge wise and not winning.

Forgot how much I enjoyed this part of the forum- been on Motorsport and Oppositelock too long I suppose.

Fact: Defenders are useful SUVs
Fact: Pickups have more storage space than SUV's
Supposition: The average trailer in the US weighs much more than one in the UK.
Fact: Pickups being discussed here are designed to tow large loads
Fact: A stock F250 or similar truck could tow more than a stock Defender
Fact: Both the Royal Army and the US Army/Marines are getting rid of their Defenders/Humvees in favor of MRAP's.
Fact: Military use =/= Great for civilian use

Informed Hypothesis: You can't carry 4 slabs of drywall, a couple dozen 2x4's (wood beams), and several sacks of
concrete in a Land Rover (Defender or otherwise)

Confirmed theory: You can in a pickup.

Fact: Pickups have a larger track than Defenders
Supposition: This makes them unappealing in Europe, where roads are smaller.

Fact: You can carry a family, all their kit, and tow a large trailer in a pickup.
Question: How is this not "Getting the job done?"

Suggestion: Start learning about cars from Journalists, not Entertainers.
Additionally, stop taking the opinions from one show and your limited life experience as gospel. You sound a fool.

Hey now that's not fair, you can at least carry the hammer and nails needed to put those things together in the Land Rover

 

[hawkeye122]

You've clearly never seen Camel trophy or an ordinary Britsh off road meeting

Oh, you mean the Camel Trophy and offroad meets where every vehicle is 100% showroom stock?

You can't compare modified vehicles in a situation like this, because you can modify them as much as you want to boost whatever stat you want. No 2 are alike.

Even comparing a Bowler and a Raptor would be more than iffy...

@LMSCorvetteGT2 Haha, right?

 

[SniperRed3]

A stock F250 or similar truck could tow more than a stock Defender

A stock defender 90 Tdi can tow 3500kg (It can tow more, but you will need a Tachograph)
A stock 2006 ford F250 can tow 3900kg
This is a 2.5l TDI vs a 5.4l V8 petrol

The Defender 110 has a maximum load capacity of 3 tons boot space of 2.1909 m2
Ford f150 1.4 ton maximum load capacity in 2014 the latestt and greatest spec

I understand that Big and flashy is a part of American society
A thing that the Defender really isn't that
But the Defender is Britian in a vehicle small but mighty
And The Ford F series is America in a vehicle a bit ott but gets the job done

 

[IforceV8]

Good luck towing 7700lbs with a 120hp/265 ft/lbs of torque,that should be a very safe trip.Since the Defender goes from 0-60 in only 15 sec stock I'm sure it will do 30-35 mph on the highway towing a trailer.

I'm sure the Defender is great to drive in a field,a river crossing,or maybe Africa on a safari but on the road towing anything would be scary.Its too short,too narrow,and underpowered to tow anything safely.

 

[Tornado]

A stock defender 90 Tdi can tow 3500kg (It can tow more, but you will need a Tachograph)
A stock 2006 ford F250 can tow 3900kg
This is a 2.5l TDI vs a 5.4l V8 petrol

This is hilariously misleading. For starters, tow ratings between a car sold only in the U.K. and a car sold only in America are so different that more often than not, cars with high tow ratings in the UK are straight up not allowed to tow at all for the USDM model. The UK Honda CRV is "rated" to 1500kg/2000kg for the automatic/manual. In the US, it's 1500 pounds. The old Toyota Yaris was rated at 1050kg. In comparison, the last regular car with a tow rating that high was the Panther bodies. In Canada the Yaris was rated at 700 pounds. In America, which has the exact same car as the Canadian one, you aren't allowed to tow with it as per the owner's manual. Meaning many larger tow equipment shops will refuse to install trailering equipment in the car; and if you get in an accident when towing, you can kiss any chance of the insurance company paying for anything goodbye.

This is because, in addition to being much more "fluid" (because manufacturers have changed them year to year along with standard equipment changes to chase higher numbers), American companies place a lot more focus on performance while towing. Because, as already pointed out several times, towing needs and driving habits are different.

The Defender 110 has a maximum load capacity of 3 tons boot space of 2.1909 m2
Ford f150 1.4 ton maximum load capacity in 2014 the latestt and greatest spec

Payload capacity is just GVWR minus curb weight. A Defender 110 HCPU has a GVWR that's almost identical to a typical quarter-ton truck, but it weighs about 400 pounds less than an F-150. And according to this, it's maximum payload is... about 400 pounds more than an F-150.

 

[hawkeye122]

A base F250 from 2006 is so far from flashy...

Also, I'd like to see a Defender tow 3500 kg up a 7% grade at over 3000 ft ASL.

 

[Bopop4]

> 360 nm



If you want to compare it to a 3/4 ton with 900 nm then good luck.

 

[SniperRed3]

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

 

[Parker]

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

I don't recall anyone saying that, all I see is you claiming that Land Rover's are better and can tow more than pickup trucks. As for videos of a Land Rover pulling more than 3.5 tons, I'm sure it can be done fairly easily. Vehicles aren't rated at the maximum they can tow period, they're rated at the maximum they can tow SAFELY. There are videos all over the internet showing Ford, Dodge and GM trucks towing more than they're legally rated for as well, it proves nothing.

 

[hawkeye122]

[quote

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

My Geo Tracker could tow 3.5 tons if I had wanted to. The point is it would be slow and unsafe.

 

[Tornado]

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

L00K GAIS THE VW TOUAREG CAN TOW 180,000 KG!

 

[terminator363]

Isn't that the same 747 from the Top Gear test track?

 

[hawkeye122]

The award for the new eminembeastfan goes to...

SniperRed3!

 

[Zenith]

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

So basically your approach to this thread is to desperately try to find a single way that a Land Rover is better at pickup truck things than a pickup truck by using totally out of context statistics to make inaccurate claims, then get your argument systematically destroyed by people who don't have their heads up Clarkson's butt.

Dude, I tried to educate you. So did Niky, Tornado, LMS, and others. Stop pretending to be open to learning about American trucks. You're not and it's fooling nobody. You just don't want to admit that the answer is not always Land Rover. With this Euro-posh attitude, I can't wait until you learn about LS swaps.

 

[Tornado]

So basically your approach to this thread is to desperately try to find a single way that a Land Rover is better at pickup truck things than a pickup truck by using totally out of context statistics to make inaccurate claims, then get your argument systematically destroyed by people who don't have their heads up Clarkson's butt.

Dude, I tried to educate you. So did Niky, Tornado, LMS, and others. Stop pretending to be open to learning about American trucks. You're not and it's fooling nobody. You just don't want to admit that the answer is not always Land Rover. With this Euro-posh attitude, I can't wait until you learn about LS swaps.

You mean an entirely aluminum V8 OHV that doesn't go off like a hand grenade for reasoning as varied as "the engine coolant all leaked out without you noticing" to "the date happened to be an even number"?

 

[Leggy1]

You guys cannot deny that if you live in a place without the pickups the defender is the best option.
I mean the land rover isn't a regular car, it's a 4x4 truck. They sell the land rover as a pickup truck.
Please don't make my link to various youtube videos of land rovers pulling more than 3.5ton

What place is this? Have you forgotten the Hilux or L200? The Japanese pickups? They aren't the massive US ones but they are a lot better than a Defender.

 

[mustangGT90210]

2014 F150 with Ecoboost V6 - Rated max towing capacity is 9,800 pounds. I doubt the land rover can touch that. The Ford also has 365hp and 420ft/lbs available between 1,700 and 5,000 rpm, a trailer brake and sway control built in, and a much longer wheelbase aiding even more in stable towing.

Another hole in your argument - comparing a diesel versus a gas F-250. Anyone that buys an F-250 to tow with regularly gets a diesel.

Don't even get me started on these beasts!

Plus. I mean, you just can't give a Land Rover this kind of stance

The one on the right is my buddy's truck, leftie is mine

 

[joetidd]

It means International gave Ford the 6.0, commonly referred to as the 6.oh no.

The 6.0 was a pretty damn bad engine and the cab has to be removed to do the majority of work on the engine (if you have a 6.0 you'll need to replace the headgaskets, you'll also want to install head studs, and yeah, the cab has to be removed for that.) But after the disaster of the 6.0, International brought out the 6.4 while Ford was working on their own engine (the 6.7) and is was a pretty damn good engine. When Ford had the 6.7 ready they went their separate ways with International (after suing them over the 6.0) and gave Ford fans a worse engine that the 6.4 that International offered.

Except the headgaskets werent a problem...and all the issues with the motor were found at the beggining of its life..so if you find them today you can usually get them cheap cause peoe see 6.0 and run..but in reallity the issues it had were already dealt with and is a very powerful fuel sipping diesel

 

[RealMachOne]

I believe Navistar bought International, I think it used to be International Harvester company.

The 7.3 Powerstroke was a decent engine but certainly not even close to bulletproof. They had a lot of HPOP problems but they were better than the IDI engines they replaced.

You must not have any experience with the 7.3l. That engine is a great engine. Sure they won't last as long as Cummins but that engine is legendary. They'd know to go over a couple million miles. Have some experience with this engine before posting some incorrect information. Do some research next time.

 

[RealMachOne]

It means International gave Ford the 6.0, commonly referred to as the 6.oh no.

The 6.0 was a pretty damn bad engine and the cab has to be removed to do the majority of work on the engine (if you have a 6.0 you'll need to replace the headgaskets, you'll also want to install head studs, and yeah, the cab has to be removed for that.) But after the disaster of the 6.0, International brought out the 6.4 while Ford was working on their own engine (the 6.7) and is was a pretty damn good engine. When Ford had the 6.7 ready they went their separate ways with International (after suing them over the 6.0) and gave Ford fans a worse engine that the 6.4 that International offered.

The 6.0L isn't a bad engine. It just takes an idiot to not take care of it properly. The two great diesels ford had in the past was the 7.3 and the second gen 6.0 basically the latter model 6L. Diesels are not meant to be tuned, they are ment to be work horses.

 

[LM7325]

As the owner of a certificate in Heavy Diesel service and ASE certification, I must ask you to just stop it.

 

[Parker]

You must not have any experience with the 7.3l. That engine is a great engine. Sure they won't last as long as Cummins but that engine is legendary. They'd know to go over a couple million miles. Have some experience with this engine before posting some incorrect information. Do some research next time.

I have plenty of experience with the 7.3 PowerStroke, I've never personally owned one but I have had a few to drive for a few weeks at a time and I've serviced plenty of them. In fact I just went with a Sgt. at work to look at an '02 7.3 F350 and guess what what wrong with it? Yep, the HPOP, a fairly common issue with that engine. They are certainly stout engines, the only PowerStroke I really like in fact, but they aren't bulletproof and they have known issues. It doesn't take much to take care of those issues when they come up but they are still there.

The 6.0L isn't a bad engine. It just takes an idiot to not take care of it properly. The two great diesels ford had in the past was the 7.3 and the second gen 6.0 basically the latter model 6L. Diesels are not meant to be tuned, they are ment to be work horses.

The first run of the 6.0 was bad, really bad. You can claim owners were idiots all you want but I know plenty of owners who build full blown, 1000+hp pulling trucks (meaning they know what the hell they are doing, they know how to take care of an engine) and they had issues with their 6.0. Near the end of the 6.0 run they had squashed most of the bugs with the engine and it was better for sure, but the engines reputation had already been destroyed, especially since it came after the 7.3 which is very reliable.

 

[LM7325]

That pretty much sums up what I was too tired to explain last night lol. The 6.0l was doomed from the start with only 10 head bolts per head and an agressive EGR system. I often wonder what the engineers were thinking? Lets increase power over 20% but weaken the top end 25% at the same time.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I have plenty of experience with the 7.3 PowerStroke, I've never personally owned one but I have had a few to drive for a few weeks at a time and I've serviced plenty of them. In fact I just went with a Sgt. at work to look at an '02 7.3 F350 and guess what what wrong with it? Yep, the HPOP, a fairly common issue with that engine. They are certainly stout engines, the only PowerStroke I really like in fact, but they aren't bulletproof and they have known issues. It doesn't take much to take care of those issues when they come up but they are still there.

Show me a 12V that doesn't leak from every orifice.

Everything has troubles.

 

[RealMachOne]

I have plenty of experience with the 7.3 PowerStroke, I've never personally owned one but I have had a few to drive for a few weeks at a time and I've serviced plenty of them. In fact I just went with a Sgt. at work to look at an '02 7.3 F350 and guess what what wrong with it? Yep, the HPOP, a fairly common issue with that engine. They are certainly stout engines, the only PowerStroke I really like in fact, but they aren't bulletproof and they have known issues. It doesn't take much to take care of those issues when they come up but they are still there.



The first run of the 6.0 was bad, really bad. You can claim owners were idiots all you want but I know plenty of owners who build full blown, 1000+hp pulling trucks (meaning they know what the hell they are doing, they know how to take care of an engine) and they had issues with their 6.0. Near the end of the 6.0 run they had squashed most of the bugs with the engine and it was better for sure, but the engines reputation had already been destroyed, especially since it came after the 7.3 which is very reliable.

My bad, I faintly remember my 7.3 having an oil leak that caused the truck to look like it was rolling coal. I can't remember but I think that might of been HPOP related. Got it fixed never happened again. The one mistake ford made was getting the 6.0 and the 6.4. I don't understand why international just could of updated the 7.3. I understand it's an old design but do what GM did and stick with something that works perfectly fine just update the emissions or update the design.

 

[Parker]

Show me a 12V that doesn't leak from every orifice.

Everything has troubles.

We've never had a 12 Valve in our family that leaks anything. After a decade (almost) of owning my truck it has just developed a slight fuel leak around the injection pump, likely an old seal, so it should be an easy fix. Other than that, not a drop. I agree that every engine has its own issues, I would never dispute that.

My bad, I faintly remember my 7.3 having an oil leak that caused the truck to look like it was rolling coal. I can't remember but I think that might of been HPOP related. Got it fixed never happened again. The one mistake ford made was getting the 6.0 and the 6.4. I don't understand why international just could of updated the 7.3. I understand it's an old design but do what GM did and stick with something that works perfectly fine just update the emissions or update the design.

I agree, an updated 7.3 would've been far preferable to the 6.0 or 6.4 but unfortunately International couldn't get it to meet emissions standards so they developed a new engine. It is the same reason Cummins went to the 24 Valve and eventually the Common Rail in '03, emissions.

Luckily the 6.7 PowerStroke and Cummins seem to be pretty damn reliable even with all the emissions equipment on them and the stock torque figures those engines put out are ridiculous.

 

[uber_brain]

Now I know that most of you know ... that unsubstantiated opinions are not really to be trusted ... even if they are our own opinions or that of our oh-so-special-best-buddy ... they are still just what they are ... unsubstantiated opinions or here-say ...


So how about some real data, real substantiation for what is being reported ...

hard data ... but subjective opinions would be kind of refreshing ... and more useful ...

So ... how about it folks ... hard data and stated and accessible data sources we can find, view, confirm.

While some folks have worked here to present best available knowledge ... even if not substantiated ... and have stated openly that "what they heard" is not substantiated ... and asked for others to confirm with data or not ...

Others ...lots of others ...are right on the edge of ... presentations that seem remarkably similar to "my brother can beat up your brother" or "my daddy has a bigger dick than your daddy" or such .. .

Come on how folks

We are all here because we love the vehicles ... how about we help each other out with real knowledge ?

 

[Parker]

Is there any reason you bumped this almost year old thread? Is there something you want to add? Something you want to learn?

 

[uber_brain]

yes I was looking for something specific
I called the companies involved and threaded my way through their engineering staff to get my answers.
Problem solved for me.
I just found the character of the fuzzy-brained blather in the thread bloody useless.
Lots of opinions, no useful real data or analysis.
Hoped that a bit of gentle criticism might set at least one or two on the path of rationality.