Why am I never competitive when doing an online PP based race?

[mindspin311]

It seems every time I enter a race that based off PP, I am never competitive.

Is there some secret Im missing or do I just have a car that is out classed for some odd reason?

I entered a few races with my non-RM Elise 111R and I always seem to be left in the dust.

 

[TeddyBear-420]

PP are not equal. also with the Downgrading percentage option it really kills it. also cars have classes, if you know cars then you will know what cars can match up against each other.

 

[Mac K]

Down grading really effects things(like teddy already said), people will sneak in a much higher PP car but maybe running only 50% in the power limiter, personally I like the way it use to be, where you could only remove mods you installed, and what ever horsepower and PP number the car had was what you were left with.. I was in a lobby a few weeks back with a 450 PP maximum.. A lot if people were using downgraded Lexus LFA's( power limiter) and although they met all the restrictions, they still had an unfair advantage and won every race and slaughtered my RUF RGT and several NSXs and tuned Evos and Imprezas.. personally I wouldn't be upset if the power limiter was removed all together.. The other reason you might not be competitive Is the tires you use, a lot of people using racing soft tires and that debate if its "wrong" or not had been going on since GT5 was released..

 

[CSLACR]

Down grading really effects things, people will sneak in a much higher PP car but maybe running online 50% in the power limiter, personally I like the way it use to be, where you could only remove mods you installed, and what ever horsepower and PP number the car had was what you were left with.. I was in a lobby a few weeks back with a 450 PP maximum.. A lot if people were using downgraded Lexus LFA's( power limiter) and although they met all the restrictions, they still had an unfair advantage and won every race and slaughtered my RUF RGT and several NSXs and tuned Evos and Imprezas.. personally I wouldn't be upset if the power limiter was removed all together.. The other reason you might not be competitive Is the tires you use, a lot of people using racing soft tires and that debate if its "wrong" or not had been going on since GT5 was released..

Yes.
I like to de-tune cars, mostly to make cars offer performance similar to less powerful lower models, for instance make a Sunfire GXP perform like a Sunfire GT.
But the way they implemented it makes the power band overwhelmingly unreal.

OP - Top Tip: Use whatever the top ten are using, and even then, you still have to be good enough to run with the fastest, this is assuming the fastest aren't blatantly cheating, in which case I don't even bother.

 

[Mac K]

Yes.
I like to de-tune cars, mostly to make cars offer performance similar to less powerful lower models, for instance make a Sunfire GXP perform like a Sunfire GT.
But the way they implemented it makes the power band overwhelmingly unreal. bother.

Stuff like that is fine.. It just annoys me when people down grade race cars and good street cars like the LFA... I did actually beat one of the LFAs( after telling them all it was unfair) so it felt pretty good. .. thats for another thread though.. Or is it fine here?

 

[FishHunters]

People are maxing out their rides with lvl 3 engines and lvl 3 turbo, etc...the turning down engine power to get into the PP band of the race. I had the same problem. I started doing what they do and now I win races.

I prefer racing stock. So what I do now is buy additional cars in different PP & HP bands. I max tune 'em for racing online. Also since your online garage defaults to favorites I only make these cars that I'm gonna race my favorites.

 

[Mac K]

People are maxing out their rides with lvl 3 engines and lvl 3 turbo, etc...the turning down engine power to get into the PP band of the race. I had the same problem. I started doing what they do and now I win races.

I prefer racing stock. So what I do now is buy additional cars in different PP & HP bands. I max tune 'em for racing online. Also since your online garage defaults to favorites I only make these cars that I'm gonna race my favorites.

Do you consider it fair though?

 

[atteiros]

IMO, since anyone can do it then it should be fair. But it's unrealistic and kills the fun. What I hope they do is use a limiter based on Stock PP, then have secondary requirements such as maximum HP.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

Mindspin,
Jump in your 111R and do a few hot laps around Tsukuba. Post your fastest lap here. We need a starting point to work with. Your car could be outclassed, improperly tuned, or you could be making errors costing precious seconds. We need some data to start with friend. Be sure to go do the laps in your lounge, as online physics do seem to be abit different.

 

[FishHunters]

@mack - Fair or not it doesn't matter; it's the way it is. you can get private races going with your own parameters. It just I would rather be racing cars as they are. It also seems that with these new seasonals PD is promoting the use of racing tunes. It states "You can tune up to xxx PP." It is the way it is.

 

[CSLACR]

It is what it is, as they say.

A good fix would be changing the de-tuning process. Just have the car's power band stay exactly the same when you decrease engine power.
That or account power band into PP, but the above seems easier.

 

[FishHunters]

Yep, actually need to limit the power limiter. If you need to go from 560 to 550 PP to get into a race I think that is fine. But if your going from 700 to 500 then it should be a no go. The limiter should be set to 10% so a car stays in it's PP band.

 

[PureLogic]

this is the reason why i stick to the low hp upgrades like ecu, intake, exhaust, etc. and minimize using engine upgrades and forced induction. if you max tune(hp) your car and then PP downgrade it via power limiter, you actually lose more than what you intend. some cars really suck when they're bottlenecked.

 

[Exorcet]

I really don't see the issue with the power limited. You end up with lower peak power, and on tracks where you can afford to squeeze the gears close, power limiting will only slow you down.

 

[phil_75]

Yep, actually need to limit the power limiter. If you need to go from 560 to 550 PP to get into a race I think that is fine. But if your going from 700 to 500 then it should be a no go. The limiter should be set to 10% so a car stays in it's PP band.

That is actually a GREAT idea!

The problem is the lotus will be very very competitive on short twisty circuits, eiger, trial mountain, deep forest, even grand valley speedway as long as you make a big enough gap in the twistys so that you don't get done on the staight.

Fuji, Suzuka, etc it will have no chance, light cars are a bit hard done by on PP.

Tip. Keep weight standard on non-RM Elise and run more power:tup: make sure you have stage 3 engine and turbo and detune - Sux but only way to be competitive.👎

 

[phil_75]

I really don't see the issue with the power limited. You end up with lower peak power, and on tracks where you can afford to squeeze the gears close, power limiting will only slow you down.

No it don't, look at your power & torque curve!

 

[deadcat777]

600pp Race Car VS 600pp Road Car. No doubt the Race Car will win.

 

[Nismo34]

600pp Race Car VS 600pp Road Car. No doubt the Race Car will win.

Now this Is where I can prove you wrong. Just have to find it all...

On a related note, I think you will find that the torque band is accounted for in the PP. For instant, take any car you wish, so long as its equipped with a turbo or supercharger, then limit it to a set PP. Remeber the HP and torque, now take off the turbo/super charger, then see the differences.

Ahh here we are:

All cars were limited to 600pp
All were run on racing softs.
Lap times were run at Nurburgring GP/F
3 laps each.

Viper ACR:
Lap 1) 2:03.847
Lap 2) 2:02.422
Lap 3) 2:02.629

70's Challenger R/T (premium dealer)
Lap 1) 2:03.546
Lap 2) 2:02.937
Lap 3) 2:02.691

Audi R10:
Lap 1) 2:00.372
Lap 2) 2:00.754
Lap 3) 2:00.707

Zonda R:
Lap 1) 2:02.196
Lap 2) 2:01.035
Lap 3) 2:00.875 (Invalid due to slight corner cut)

NASCAR:
Lap 1) 2:03.230
Lap 2) 2:02.187
Lap 3) 2:01.912

Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SV:
Lap 1)2:03.709
Lap 2)1:58.001
Lap 3)1:58.720

Nissan Skyline R34:
Lap 1)2:02.056
Lap 2)2:00.881
Lap 3)2:00.592

 

[FishHunters]

For instant, take any car you wish, so long as its equipped with a turbo or supercharger, then limit it to a set PP. Remeber the HP and torque, now take off the turbo/super charger, then see the differences.

Ahh here we are:

What are you saying since Im not at a ps3 to find out?

 

[Nismo34]

You get less torque but more power with out the turbo, and more torque but less horsepower with the turbo at the same PP.

 

[Moot]

PP does not create even cars. Some are wildly different in natural grip.
So it's not PP fault either as you can use the power and weight restriction instead of PP and still have completely unfairly matched cars in terms of grip, even when they have the same tyres and same downforce levels.
It's all in the actual car. Some are good some are awful.

 

[FishHunters]

PP does not create even cars. .

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

 

[Moot]

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

Well that could be track choice, try it on Tsukuba.
What makes me think something is wrong when I tried a fully modified Lupo GTI against the Lupo GTI cup on Tsukuba, set to same downforce settings, same power same weight same tyres. The Cup is seconds faster around the track. It should not be possible, there is a fake car grip code written into each car that can not be changed by modifications or power/weight balancing.
I even gave the Lupo Gti 50bhp more and less weight, and it still was slower. The PP was much higher in the non cup car.
The only difference I guess would be the stiffness from the roll cage. But that is not going to make that much difference. I also tried the Lupo non gti cup car, and that was slower too.

So, what i'm saying is no matter what you do to some cars, even if they have higher PP, they are still programmed to be slower than other cars in GT5. Impossible to balance.
Best to do same make racing for fairness.

 

[Nismo34]

PP does create Even cars, its the drivers the make them uneven. It also depends on the track. 550pp heavy weight, high horsepower mercedes vs 550pp light weight, low horsepower Caterham around highspeed ring, the mercedes will most definatly win, but as soon as the battle moves to Eiger Nordwand short track, the caterhams in with a shot.

 

[FishHunters]

PP does create Even cars, its the drivers the make them uneven. It also depends on the track. 550pp heavy weight, high horsepower mercedes vs 550pp light weight, low horsepower Caterham around highspeed ring, the mercedes will most definatly win, but as soon as the battle moves to Eiger Nordwand short track, the caterhams in with a shot.

I can't see the caterham beating any high HP mercedes even on Nordwand short track. can't see it! If you wanna try it send me a FR on PSN and we'll do a 2p mode test.

That's 5XX PP sitting in the garage.

 

[posimosh]

Half of you are arguing for pp racing and against weight and hp restrictions.... Like for instance when you could fit the pugeot 908 in to a 700hp 1000kg room and blow everyone away cause you have like 1100 lb/foot of torque... Although there are some inequalities in the pp system its far better than any other brand of performance balancing. The biggest thing that I have found is that there is an advantage in tuning downforce settings. If you want to limit a room to street (no front df adjustments) race/tuner below 50/70 downforce and full race prototypes df 60/85-105, limit the pp, and if the races aren't close re-tune your car, learn to drive better, turn off some assists, or join another room with people that are your skill level.
Whatever you do... Do NOT ever think of turning boost on. Its lame and brings back memories of mario kart 64.

 

[Nismo34]

I can't see the caterham beating any high HP mercedes even on Nordwand short track. can't see it! If you wanna try it send me a FR on PSN and we'll do a 2p mode test.

That's 5XX PP sitting in the garage.

I didnt exactly say it could beat it, I was just saying that it could stand a chance, I'll send you a FR, anyway and see what we can do. Shall I be in the caterham?

 

[Corpsey]

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

usually caterhams are raced against eachother like F1 but more club-style

(Caterham Racing)

 

[FishHunters]

I didnt exactly say it could beat it, I was just saying that it could stand a chance, I'll send you a FR, anyway and see what we can do. Shall I be in the caterham?

Your choice it should be fun! Send me a PM and let me know when it's available.

 

[FishHunters]

usually caterhams are raced against eachother like F1 but more club-style

(Caterham Racing)

Cool link! Learn something new!