Why am I never competitive when doing an online PP based race?

[sesselpupser]

The restrictor is useful, but way too useful. I mean, yeah, if you have a car tuned to a certain PP but then after a few races the engine has run-in and is now slightly over, the restrictor is a good way to limit the power without changing the engine's overall characteristics such as rev range, powerband or overall response, but because we can halve the power of any car it's just too much. 10% or so reduction would be much better, because then you won't get people with, say, 908 HDi FAPs alongside tuned SL65 AMGs in a 600PP race (that was a rough guess). The ballast tuning is fine, though, it doesn't alter the PP as drastically as the restrictor.

Also tyre choice is something I hardly ever see restricted, not that I play online much. The last time I saw a tyre limit, I was in a drift lobby, where you'd have to be mad to use anything better than Comfort Softs. A 500PP limit in a road car race means nothing if everyone is on F1 super soft option tyres... Tyres should still contribute to the PP.

 

[Exorcet]

No it don't, look at your power & torque curve!

Yes I've seen it. Once it's expanded wider than the RPM range of the car's gearing, power limiting will only slow you down, because you'll never be able to make the same maximum power as with a "peaky" engine.

The flat power curve is good for lazy drivers, but fast ones will benefit from not having it completely flat, depending on the track.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

It weighs less than 1000 lb. The PP on the car is absolutely correct. PP will not make two cars be the same car. That is not the point of the system, and it really shouldn't be. The point of PP is to provide a glimpse of the overall performance of the car. Some cars are relatively "balanced", while others excel in some areas, but are very poor in others. It's up to the driver to take that into account. It would certainly help if PD gave us more options (I still have no idea why selecting PP rules makes it impossible to select hp and weight rules), but the system is pretty good as is.

That said, I guess I'll go double check and see how much power is lost when flat lining the power curve. Maybe I'll do some laps too.

The restrictor is useful, but way too useful. I mean, yeah, if you have a car tuned to a certain PP but then after a few races the engine has run-in and is now slightly over, the restrictor is a good way to limit the power without changing the engine's overall characteristics such as rev range, powerband or overall response, but because we can halve the power of any car it's just too much. 10% or so reduction would be much better, because then you won't get people with, say, 908 HDi FAPs alongside tuned SL65 AMGs in a 600PP race (that was a rough guess). The ballast tuning is fine, though, it doesn't alter the PP as drastically as the restrictor.

We just need more options than just PP. The power limiter is fine at 50%.

If you could make a room like : 500 PP, 550 hp max, 3750 lbs min there would be no issues with 908's vs SL65's.

Also tyre choice is something I hardly ever see restricted, not that I play online much. The last time I saw a tyre limit, I was in a drift lobby, where you'd have to be mad to use anything better than Comfort Softs. A 500PP limit in a road car race means nothing if everyone is on F1 super soft option tyres... Tyres should still contribute to the PP.

I don't agree with tires taken into account for PP. Besides, there is already a tire restrict option. If people don't use that, they'll probably just use RS all the time anyway. It doesn't fly in my room where RH is usually the max for race cars, and CS is usually the max for road cars.

 

[Nismo34]

I don't agree with tires taken into account for PP. Besides, there is already a tire restrict option. If people don't use that, they'll probably just use RS all the time anyway. It doesn't fly in my room where RH is usually the max for race cars, and CS is usually the max for road cars.

Its interesting you say that as I have a mate who always hosts pp restricted lobbies but keeps the tyres unrestricted, yes sure, every one goes ahead and uses racing softs, but the racing is mighty close. And having tyre wear on, it keeps it interesting too.

To me, I dont see the point of tyre restricting in PP restricted rooms. if the PP was unrestricted, then yea sure, limit it to sports hard to try and prevent alot of people flying off in their 1000hp viper etc. But really, when it comes down to proper racing, tyre restricting just doesnt work too well IMO.

 

[Hofstee]

Now this Is where I can prove you wrong. Just have to find it all...

On a related note, I think you will find that the torque band is accounted for in the PP. For instant, take any car you wish, so long as its equipped with a turbo or supercharger, then limit it to a set PP. Remeber the HP and torque, now take off the turbo/super charger, then see the differences.

Ahh here we are:

I fail to see your point. The race car won, the road car didn't.

 

[Exorcet]

Its interesting you say that as I have a mate who always hosts pp restricted lobbies but keeps the tyres unrestricted, yes sure, every one goes ahead and uses racing softs, but the racing is mighty close. And having tyre wear on, it keeps it interesting too.

I don't avoid RS to make races close. I avoid them because I find them boring to use personally compared to the less grippy tires, and because their grip is not realistic on slower cars (or perhaps even some race cars)

To me, I dont see the point of tyre restricting in PP restricted rooms. if the PP was unrestricted, then yea sure, limit it to sports hard to try and prevent alot of people flying off in their 1000hp viper etc. But really, when it comes down to proper racing, tyre restricting just doesnt work too well IMO.

I once found a 300 or so PP room. I decided to hop in since you don't see many. I then found out that they were using RS tires, but I decided to race anyway. All I did was floor the gas and turn. I was almost ready to fall asleep. I just don't understand how people do it.

And if the room is unrestricted, why try to restrict a 1000 hp anything in the first place?

 

[Nismo34]

I fail to see your point. The race car won, the road car didn't.

What racecar won?

And as for the RS being boring it all depends on the PP. 570< is usually a good starting point for non boring RS races, well at least thats what I have found.

 

[Exorcet]

Test results

R10 - Indy road

1:27.393 - normal, 673 PP, 640 hp, 800 ft/lb

1:27.102 - limited, 673 PP, 627 hp, 856 ft/lb





430 S - Laguna

1:29.872 - normal, 544 PP, 488 hp, 337 ft/lb
1:29.653 - limited, 544 PP, 473 hp, 389 ft/lb


Each car got two laps, I did the normals first. The limited cars ran slightly faster lap times, but it could have just been that driving in the normals first helped me warm up more. Either way, this isn't race breaking at all.

 

[Nismo34]

Your test was proving what exactly?

 

[Exorcet]

It's providing data on the argument. I'd hardly call anything proven after 8 laps.

 

[iamjajo]

OP - there are many reasons that have nothing to do with PP that could cause you to be slower than the field.

Non-PP upgrades
Proper car setup
Tires
Types of driving aids being used


Somebody also said type of car, and that's true too. Some cars are just faster than others at specific PP. I have no problem with this because a 550PP Gallardo ought to have faster lap times than a 550PP minivan.

There are also ways to spend your PP that will have strong influence on lap times - depending on the track. You could be using inappropriate downforce, or no downforce when it's needed.

The answer is not simple because other things can affect the lap times besides the PP.

 

[abaxas]

Different cars work with different PPs at different circuits.

You are never going to win at monza in a 575 elise 111R rm. My 530 lotus esprit will eat you alive. I however, will be thrashed completely on a twisty circuit.

Ie the PP system is not flawed, it just doesnt take into consideration the advantages/disadvantages each car will have on different tracks.

If you play the 2005 Le Sarthe (no chicanes). Almost nothing will ever beat a 621 PP TVR speed 12, even though some cars have 700+ PP.

 

[Exorcet]

a 550PP Gallardo ought to have faster lap times than a 550PP minivan.

Ideally, they would have the same laptime, because they have the same PP. In practice though, the minivan would probably suffer from higher drag, lift, and smaller tires. It would most likely end up lighter and more powerful than the Lamborghini though.

 

[phil_75]

Take a standard car, do a few fast laps now add engine stage3 and turbo and reduce to same PP!

Modded car will be faster 95% of the time!

 

[Exorcet]

Take a standard car, do a few fast laps now add engine stage3 and turbo and reduce to same PP!

Modded car will be faster 95% of the time!

I did it twice on the last page, and the modded car wasn't really faster at all. It would be nice if more people did laps though.

 

[phil_75]

I am 1.5 secs quicker around Suzuka in NismoZ and Arta NSX

About 1 sec quicker round Fuji F same cars!

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Well that could be track choice, try it on Tsukuba.

My 500PP Jaguar E-Type destroys my 550PP Caterham at Tsukuba... PD just failed very badly on that car. Just like the Alfa TZ2, it has way to much PP for its power!

Also, if you don`t mix up cars from different classes (street cars with super gt`s or DTMs) you get a quite evenly matched field, eventhough there are always some oddly overpowered cars.

 

[BradKinder]

To the OP...

Make sure that you turn off abs. Adjust the brake power (keep the brake balance x/x... Maybe 5/5 for racing tires down to 2/2 for comfort tires) to suit the tires and weight of the car you're using. Lighter cars need more break power for the same tires than a heavier car. You're new breaking performance will increase your lap times by many seconds.

Using ABS will make you super easy to pass and make hard cornering at competitive speeds impossible.

 

[Exorcet]

Using ABS will make you super easy to pass and make hard cornering at competitive speeds impossible.

What is this based on? ABS probably makes most people faster.

And 90% of people online probably use ABS anyway.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Look, as long as you have races, both in the real world and in a video game, where the cars are not identical, there will always be drivers with advantages and disadvantages. In fact, very few races exist in the real world where everyone has an equal chance of wining based on their car selection.

Frankly, even in races where theoretically everyone is driving the exact same equipment, drivers will still have advantages and disadvantages based on how a car is set-up for that particular race.

Like the OP, I like to be in races where no one has any distinct advantage, and thus I get together with other drivers who feel the same way and organize races.

However, in no way would I support the idea that the PP system be removed. It serves a purpose, and frankly no handicap system is ever going to be perfect, not with the massive variety in cars and performance variations based on thousands of possible variations of tuning adjustments for each car.

Just like in the real world of racing, mechanics, engineers, and tuners will always find ways of improving their car's performance while still technically following any and all regulations. The same goes for GT5 and the PP system.

Besides, adjusting the power to lower the PP is just another form of tuning, and many people like the idea of being master tuners, both in the real world and in video games, and who spend countless hours testing out different set-ups, adjustments, modifications, to get their cars performing at their very best while still meeting any formal regulations.

So it really comes down to what you are looking for. Driver only races where everyone is in identical cars with identical set-ups, or Driver/Tuner races where within the regulations, different cars with different set-ups are allowed to compete. You are not forced to do one or the other, but you have to make an effort to find races that you will enjoy, and not simply expect them to be there waiting for you online or in the real world.

Anyone who is reading this thread is already a member of one of the best sites for online racing groups with access to multiple online racing leagues including their own official one, where for the most part members are very supportive, race clean, and stay active.

If you can't find a race online that you like, you aren't taking advantage of all your options.

 

[tuga703]

there's much more to performance than just horsepower and weight. The thing that makes the biggest difference is obviously the track, a heavy and powerful muscle car will be faster 'round daytona than a light and nimble elise even though they have the same pp level , while the opposite is true around autumn ring mini or eiger nordwand. But that's not the only thing, tuning the gearbox, lsd and suspension also make major differences. I think the power limiter does not really give an advantage if you have a good gearbox as your peak bhp goes down even if your pp stays the same.

 

[grog]

While it seems like not everyone agrees this is an issue or not, I think a great addition to online racing would be an option to limit the range power limiters and balast can be used or dissabled them all together.

Then people who disslike them can choose to limit use of them and those who dont mind can still use them.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

While it seems like not everyone agrees this is an issue or not, I think a great addition to online racing would be an option to limit the range power limiters and balast can be used or dissabled them all together.

Then people who disslike them can choose to limit use of them and those who dont mind can still use them.

Couldn't agree more. The more options the better IMO and is certainly a much better choice then removing features just because some people don't like them.

 

[Willfred_1]

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

The Mitsubishi 1600 rally car is another example its only got 160bhp and the pp over 400

 

[Corpsey]

its like you guys have no concept of car classification

 

[Jaywalker]

Yes.
I like to de-tune cars, mostly to make cars offer performance similar to less powerful lower models, for instance make a Sunfire GXP perform like a Sunfire GT.
But the way they implemented it makes the power band overwhelmingly unreal.

OP - Top Tip: Use whatever the top ten are using, and even then, you still have to be good enough to run with the fastest, this is assuming the fastest aren't blatantly cheating, in which case I don't even bother.

^This^ Also, tune your car to the max & then bring the PP down by adding ballast. (Weight) I've tested this & it gives better results than reducing engine power.

 

[OK8]

The elise is a really light car and light cars are at a disadvantage when it comes to the pp system. My Ginetta G4 (max tuned, with a whopping 100-130hp) get's like 550 pp. I can certainly tell you that there isn't a track on which the ginetta would win any other 550pp car.

 

[Moot]

The elise is a really light car and light cars are at a disadvantage when it comes to the pp system. My Ginetta G4 (max tuned, with a whopping 100-130hp) get's like 550 pp. I can certainly tell you that there isn't a track on which the ginetta would win any other 550pp car.

No it hasn't, the Elise got an advantage on tracks which are good for light cars.
When you tune some cars too much like the G4 it becomes uncompetitive for it's pp level, race other people in your G4 at 400pp and you will do better.
You are out on you PP quote also, I set the G4 at 549kgs and 255bhp to get 550pp. Your 100-130bhp is way off from 550pp.
I would say the G4 is best at about 130bhp and 600kgs with 450pp. It won't be as good as the mk1 Elise though as it's not designed to be that powerful.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

PP does not create even cars. Some are wildly different in natural grip.
So it's not PP fault either as you can use the power and weight restriction instead of PP and still have completely unfairly matched cars in terms of grip, even when they have the same tyres and same downforce levels.
It's all in the actual car. Some are good some are awful.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Look at the 500 something PP of the Sevenblade with it's 138HP. What were they thinking? Took it out on the Highspeed ring and was greatly bored trolling around at such a slow speed!

I think you misunderstood what Moot was saying. I don't think he was suggesting that every car with the exact same PP no matter what the difference should perform equally. PP is just a system to help handicap a race, but it's usefulness can easily be diminished if comparing the performance of cars with the same PP that are not even in the same classification...

its like you guys have no concept of car classification

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. Many people seem to obsess over PP without considering the type of cars or even the type of track being used and assume that as long as two cars have the exact same PP they should perform equally... even when they are not in the same class and or have huge differences in power and weight... which isn't true in the game nor in a real world PP system.

If you want to get the most out of the PP system, stick with races of the same car classification and PP. Keep in mind, even against equally performing cars, if you are losing regularly it's time to consider that maybe it's not the cars or the PP system...

 

[BarronGeddon]

Listen to Moot and Digital-Nitrate. They speak the truth.

You have to consider the DNA of the car, and the track's personality.

Numerical PP alone is not the great equalizer.