Why are the Auto Boxes so stupid

[Meythia]

Absolutely true. the indicated gear is almost always lower than optimal. If you went into the indicated gear most or all of the time, you would have to slow waaay down for most corners.

That really depends on how the gear ratios is setup. I cant say if it generally fits or doesnt, I can only agree on it doesnt match always.

 

[toastet]

I've driven the Porsche PDK and in Auto mode it shifts so precisely you can use it on the track without touching the paddles.

This. But it's still rare to have such automatic gearbox performance.

 

[Live25]

Modern AT’s are so much more advanced than what was available even 10-20 years ago (let alone what was available 50-70), quicker for all but the most elite drivers (even that is growing less true, the computational abilities of the systems far exceed human times and real-time load sensors and a simple throttle input provide all the information that is needed) and more economical to boot.

It’s not that people have stopped loving manuals, myself included, but the AT’s are simply the best solution in nearly every application these days, racing included.

It’s like saying you can do advanced mathematics (basically what it is these days) quicker than an appropriate computer. No, you can’t.

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

A semi-auto system like dirt rally uses would be cool but i doubt Kaz would do it to simple a solution for GT

 

[NJ72]

Modern AT’s are so much more advanced than what was available even 10-20 years ago (let alone what was available 50-70), quicker for all but the most elite drivers (even that is growing less true, the computational abilities of the systems far exceed human times and real-time load sensors and a simple throttle input provide all the information that is needed) and more economical to boot.

It’s not that people have stopped loving manuals, myself included, but the AT’s are simply the best solution in nearly every application these days, racing included.

It’s like saying you can do advanced mathematics (basically what it is these days) quicker than an appropriate computer. No, you can’t.

That's simply not true. Take F1 as an example. They use an automated semi-automatics transmission, but the gear changes are still controlled by the driver with paddles. This is because an auto will shift quicker than a human ever could, but the human is still in control of when to shift.

 

[xMAXIx79]

A semi-auto system like dirt rally uses would be cool but i doubt Kaz would do it to simple a solution for GT

Totally agree... GT7 with a semi-automatic... whoa, I would get teary-eyed with joy for weeks.
That's exactly what would allow me to do better times in a heated race or when I'm driving at the limit.. because I still happen to shift gears a tenth of a second too late, run into the limiter and lose time, mostly on corners with a difficult exit if I'm still am in low gear. If an automatic were to pop into the next gear here.. but then I can switch by hand whenever I think it's right.. I wish that so much.

 

[snowgt]

Modern AT’s are so much more advanced than what was available even 10-20 years ago (let alone what was available 50-70), quicker for all but the most elite drivers (even that is growing less true, the computational abilities of the systems far exceed human times and real-time load sensors and a simple throttle input provide all the information that is needed) and more economical to boot.

It’s not that people have stopped loving manuals, myself included, but the AT’s are simply the best solution in nearly every application these days, racing included.

It’s like saying you can do advanced mathematics (basically what it is these days) quicker than an appropriate computer. No, you can’t.

You are right that automatic gearboxes nowadays are superior to manual shifting in most use cases. However, in racing there is one flaw that an automatic gearbox, however advanced it may be, cannot overcome - it does not know what the driver will do in the next few moments, only the driver knows. It may predict, but it may be wrong. The driver on the other hand, knows what he is going to do, and can choose the right gear for his planned actions. That's something that the auto gearboxes by definition cannot do better than the driver.

Your analogy is a bit like saying the word prediction algorithm on your mobile phone can write all your messages better than you can. And we all know that's not true.

 

[Live25]

The AT still does all the work in paddle setups, the paddle is merely an additional input device. The transmission is not 'semi-automatic', it's automatic.

 

[jgtc_lover]

The AT still does all the work in paddle setups, the paddle is merely an additional input device. The transmission is not 'semi-automatic', it's automatic.

People refer to them as "semi-automatic" to denote it as an automatic that accepts a manual input from the driver.

There are lots of transmission types that fall under the category of "automatic" it's foolish to lump them all together into one category because function of each can vary wildly from one to another.

 

[Live25]

A brake pedal and throttle are also manual inputs, so by that logic, nothing is an automatic.

It's not foolish, it's a fact.

 

[Sunzi]

Very briefly and concisely... if you are not satisfied with the AT, you should use MT.

And I really ask everyone to definitely prove with verifiable numbers that he/she is generally faster with MT.
YES the really...really good drivers are...and that's undeniable.. but a lot of drivers here on the forum aren't anywhere near that level...NEW ME!!! But I drive 90-95% AT... and I'm definitely NOT slow.

So please, dear topic starter, prove your dislike and devaluation of the supposedly and apparently so bad automatic transmission of the game with numbers. I suggest you and others who talk so badly about AT post a series of your CE or license times, I'd like to compare them to my AT times.

Unfortunately I can't prove it but I can feel it.

Regardless of pace (my times are quicker on MT but Im not quoting them because I also have more track experience with GT7 compared to 2-3 months ago when I was on AT), it's the control that you gain on MT that is the real benefit - controlling rotation, downshift engine braking without completely losing pace or hanging in gear to really power through sweeping bends (like Tokyo for example).

Also, being able to take advantage of the unique power band on some cars like the Radical or the RE Amemiya. The Amemiya redlines at 8,500rpm but makes peak around 7,200rpm - I was able to match my own laptimes with much faster cars (190mph+) by shifting in the power band in the Amemiya which barely hit 178mph - doing so got me 11 laps of Tokyo in an event that sees the average 600PP road cars managing 7, maybe 8 laps max on FM1.

Plus, it's just a more engaging experience which was my reasoning for switching to MT. I play offline so it's not elitism when I'm not competing with anyone ha ha. It's just trying to find the most immersive experience.

 

[John Smith UK]

This. But it's still rare to have such automatic gearbox performance.

No in The modern age autos are generally the setting for most lap records at most of the worlds circuits for road cars

That's simply not true. Take F1 as an example. They use an automated semi-automatics transmission, but the gear changes are still controlled by the driver with paddles. This is because an auto will shift quicker than a human ever could, but the human is still in control of when to shift.

If you gave any top line race team the choice they would have a full auto box, linked to track gps it is always in the right gear, it ensures the right gear for any corner and max acceleration down the straights, Remember F1 banned full auto boxes 2004 as the boxes were loaded with the optimum up shirts and downshifts, driver just had to steer and brake etc - you make a valid point but on track races the points for braking, turn in, acceleration are the same lap after lap so it’s only exceptional that a driver would need to override the box

 

[jgtc_lover]

A brake pedal and throttle are also manual inputs, so by that logic, nothing is an automatic.

It's not foolish, it's a fact.

No, if you actually read my comment you'd see that I'm saying there are different types of automatic transmissions. When people refer to a transmission as "semi-automatic" they typically refer to a two-pedal transmission where the gears can be manually selected by the driver.

What is it you're trying to prove by calling everything an automatic?

By your logic there is no difference between a Porsche PDK and a Nissan CVT. Yes, they can both be categorized as automatic transmissions but how each function and accept input from the driver is completely different.

Since you seem to be having so much trouble understanding what a semi-automatic transmission is, here are some articles to help you:
https://www.autotrainingcentre.com/...on-3-students-automotive-technology-training/

https://cartreatments.com/semi-automatic-transmission-overview/

https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/semi-automatic-transmission/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_transmission

Here's a definition of a semi-automatic transmission from Car and Driver:
"Semi-automatic transmission (SAT): A semi-automatic has a clutch similar to a manual transmission, but the clutch is operated through electrohydraulic means and uses sensors, pneumatics, processors, and actuators."
https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31884931/what-is-an-automatic-car/

 

[Live25]

Yea I looked up some articles last night on Google too (including one from C&D that had a starkly different point-of-view than the one you provided), but decided against posting them becuase I realized the discussion had grown pointless. I do find it amusing that in that article that you cite it has a big, giant header that literally reads ‘Types of Automatic Transmission in Automobiles’.

Its cool man, but a semi-automatic is a gun, not a transmission.

 

[John Smith UK]

Yea I looked up some articles last night on Google too (including one from C&D that had a starkly different point-of-view than the one you provided), but decided against posting them becuase I realized the discussion had grown pointless. I do find it amusing that in that article that you cite it has a big, giant header that literally reads ‘Types of Automatic Transmission in Automobiles’.

Its cool man, but a semi-automatic is a gun, not a transmission.

A semi-automatic transmission is a multiple-speed transmission where part of its operation is automated (typically the actuation of the clutch), but the driver's input is still required to launch the vehicle from a standstill and to manually change gears. Most semi-automatic transmissions used in cars and motorcycles are based on conventional manual transmissions or sequential manual transmissions, but use an automatic clutch system. However, some semi-automatic transmissions have also been based on standard hydraulic automatic transmissions with torque converters and planetary gearsets.

 

[Live25]

A semi-automatic transmission is a multiple-speed transmission where part of its operation is automated (typically the actuation of the clutch), but the driver's input is still required to launch the vehicle from a standstill and to manually change gears. Most semi-automatic transmissions used in cars and motorcycles are based on conventional manual transmissions or sequential manual transmissions, but use an automatic clutch system. However, some semi-automatic transmissions have also been based on standard hydraulic automatic transmissions with torque converters and planetary gearsets.

That was listed under ‘Types of Automatic Transmissions’, ergo, an automatic…

 

[jgtc_lover]

Yea I looked up some articles last night on Google too (including one from C&D that had a starkly different point-of-view than the one you provided), but decided against posting them becuase I realized the discussion had grown pointless. I do find it amusing that in that article that you cite it has a big, giant header that literally reads ‘Types of Automatic Transmission in Automobiles’.

Its cool man, but a semi-automatic is a gun, not a transmission.

I'm literally saying there are different types of automatic transmissions. That is literally the point I was making.

And yes, there are transmissions that are classified as "semi-automatic" as is described on that Car and Driver article. But I guess somehow you know better than people who get paid to write articles about cars. 🙄

 

[John Smith UK]

That was listed under ‘Types of Automatic Transmissions’, ergo, an automatic…

I think your statement is misleading, a full auto box requires the driver tp accelerate and brake nothing else, a semi auto requires him/her to trigger the change of gear else it stays in 1st for example

 

[Live25]

I'm literally saying there are different types of automatic transmissions. That is literally the point I was making.

And yes, there are transmissions that are classified as "semi-automatic" as is described on that Car and Driver article. But I guess somehow you know better than people who get paid to write articles about cars. 🙄

I never disputed that there are different types of automatic transmissions, but all of them fall under the umbrella of automatic transmissions. Just like a sequential manual isn’t a conventional manual is still a manual transmission.

That’s funny, because all C&D did in that article was regurgitate what others had already published instead of writing their own content…

I think your statement is misleading, a full auto box requires the driver tp accelerate and brake nothing else, a semi auto requires him/her to trigger the change of gear else it stays in 1st for example

I didn’t make a statement, I merely highlighted a header from an article being used as a citation for proof of a counter-argument.

 

[jgtc_lover]

I never disputed that there are different types of automatic transmissions, but all of them fall under the umbrella of automatic transmissions. Just like a sequential manual isn’t a conventional manual is still a manual transmission.

That’s funny, because all C&D did in that article was regurgitate what others had already published instead of writing their own content…

So they cite their sources and that somehow makes them less credible?

It doesn't change the fact that there are semi-automatic transmissions.

 

[Live25]

So they cite their sources and that somehow makes them less credible?

It doesn't change the fact that there are semi-automatic transmissions.

Your point was that I know less than what C&D does because I don’t write articles myself, yet the entire article is C&D doing that themselves. Surely, you can see the folly in that?

Yes there are and they are a type of automatic transmission…as stated in the article you cited.

 

[daan]

Lets have some definitions.

On a road car.
Manual - Clutch pedal and H-pattern shifter.
Automatic - Automatically operated clutch. Gearbox that changes gear when it decides. Usually still has some sort of manual override on the gear selector.
Semi-Auto - Automatically operated clutch*. Changes gear when driver tells it to through use of paddle or lever. Will usually have a fully-automatic mode.

Today's professional racing cars are usually semi-auto but will not have the fully automatic mode. The driver will still be in control of when to change gear.


* Racing car applications usually have a paddle for manual clutch operation that is used for standing starts, but not utilised once the car is moving.

But none of these real life manual, semi-auto, or fully automatic boxes have any any bearing on the manual or automatic choice in a Gran Turismo game.

 

[Sunzi]

Probably variables at play especially in something so close to the edge like the Dallara SF19 but I couldn't beat my Fuji Time Trial MT lap using AT.

 

[Meythia]

Very briefly and concisely... if you are not satisfied with the AT, you should use MT.

And I really ask everyone to definitely prove with verifiable numbers that he/she is generally faster with MT.

Putting some fresh food to the debate:
I definitly am not at a level where this would make much of a difference, I just like doing it manually.
But to get some concrete numbers I just asked myself: can you beat Lake Maggiore with all driving aids enabled (because everyone says this makes much slower)? -> The answer is yes, and I am generally at the same pace as when I am driving without all the stuff enabled.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Agreed you are totally correct which in a racing car should make it almost a perfect companion don’t you think

It's done for game play purposes and ease of use. As famine said, up at red line and down at a given RPM. It's not meant to be better than a manual in this game.

If the intention was to be fastest, there would be no manual option since an autobox would always be better, hence why Porsche, Ferrari, etc, have an autobox with a manual option for the enthusiast.

 

[MonoTonouS]

Eh, People say manuals are faster but looking at 0-60 times for cars in the '70s and 80's they were like 3-5% faster than the auto's, but the auto shifted the same every single time. Plus, you aren't betting the pro driver banging out gears on the test.

My Rx7 had an auto with 150k miles on it that worked flawlessly when I removed it a decade or so ago. Almost all manual gearboxes have been rebuilt a few times and even then they all have quirks after some 50k miles. I bet that auto could whoop a stick 9/10 times, it has a small vac valve that can tell when you floor it and lets the car shift in the 6.5 k range.

Also, there is no such thing as a semi-auto gearbox mechanically, it's an automatic with the shift solenoids being electronically overridden,and in the case of a dual-clutch, the automatic gear has already been pre-selected and awaiting the driver to engage it.

TRee'd by Daan

 

[Meythia]

Eh, People say manuals are faster but looking at 0-60 times for cars in the '70s and 80's they were like 3-5% faster than the auto's, but the auto shifted the same every single time. Plus, you aren't betting the pro driver banging out gears on the test.

No, people are not saying manual is faster.
Players are saying manual is faster in a game that is a bad replica of the real world.

 

[KCR]

I moved from AT to MT in order to become a bit faster, but that didn't happen - I am definitely not faster with MT.
Not being very good, my lap times are not super consistent, but they are roughly comparable between AT and MT.

If anything, I'm probably overall slower with MT due to missing the right gear from time to time, especially during races.

I still keep on using MT for a few reasons:

• it feels good to be on the gear you want, when you want. Playing the game for entertainment, important point for me.
• on fast car I can go out of tight corners in 3rd instead of 2nd and it is easier on the throttle control
• I can save fuel when needed without fiddling with the MFD

There are a few of video comparing MT and AT, I have yet to find one proving AT is noticeably slower for common people. The outcome is always "AT is completely viable option". One example: