Why does Polyphony have trouble licensing cars?

[machscnel]

I've just been read through the Porsche and Lamborghini thread and it really confused me. Why don't we know if they are in the game yet? Why hasn't Polyphony in the past been able to get these cars? I mean Forza had them plus Maserati's, Koenigsegg's etc and Forza didn't have the reputation or good name Gran Turismo has. So how did Turn 10 get the rights(and companies like EA etc) to these cars yet maybe the most popular racing game of the last 10 years can't seem to. I know maybe they have not been announced yet but I doubt it, would be very hard to keep secret this long, hopefully I'm wrong. Is it just a simple money issue?

 

[Sureboss]

Not necessarily, other developers may have bought an exclusive license.

 

[Peter]

Maybe because PD is a small company with not much money to license them. Big companies like EA and Microsoft have the money to put them in Need for Speed and Forza. It's all about money.

 

[Antti-san]

Yeah, Sony is a small company... I doubt the money is the issue here.

 

[Scaff]

Maybe because PD is a small company with not much money to license them. Big companies like EA and Microsoft have the money to put them in Need for Speed and Forza. It's all about money.

That small company that is a wholly owned part of Sony!

To put it in more simple terms, its down to a willingness to spend money in certain cases (just because you can get a licence doesn't mean the price asked is acceptable), the company may not want to have its cars included (Saab are well know for not wanting to licence cars) or it can be down to competition. Its rumoured that Porsche have issues with its cars appearing alongside Ruf models (wonder why that could be).


At the end of the day we will get what we get with GT5, I've long given up getting stressed about it.


Regards

Scaff

 

[balang_479]

Ive kinda always wondered this too... Having a wide selection of car manufacturers is a big selling point, its pretty crazy that we havent had Ferrari until now...

 

[Perfect Balance]

I think with 600+ cars, the question isn't if PD has trouble licensing cars, and rather the other companies.

 

[homeforsummer]

(Saab are well know for not wanting to licence cars)

Apart from Enthusia (a 9-5 Aero), and that well known simulation, The Getaway With Volvo appearing in GT before now, it's surprising that Saab hasn't. Perhaps they will with GT5.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your point - I've given up being too bothered about what manufacturers are and aren't included. I'm more than happy enough that Ferrari finally appeared after all those games.

 

[Forgetful]

I'm just gonna say... we don't know what they've been able to accomplish in the last 5 years, in terms or acquiring licenses.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah, Sony is a small company... I doubt the money is the issue here.

Except Sony does not entirely back Polyphony like Microsoft backs Turn10. Money is always an issue, as is exclusive deals.

However, one that most people forget are negotiations & contracts. Remember, Polyphony doesn't work like Turn10, so when Kazunori speaks with manufacturers, chances are that they don't like what they're hearing and deny Kaz. a license. What causes these differences? Who knows. Could be physics, could be options, maybe even requests by the manufacturer that Kaz. can not honor.

IMO, the negotiations are probably the biggest issue with why we don't have certain cars. Kaz. has a big dream for GT, and I'm willing to bet many manufacturers don't want to be apart of the exact same dream without compromises.

 

[nk4e]

Like some companies don't like to see their own beauties crashed up.

Edit: Its just politics.

 

[mPWRD]

Like some companies don't like to see their own beauties crashed up.

then what would explain forza getting the licenses? have you seen their damage system?

honestly, though... i agree with scaff. what we get is what we get, good luck changing it.

 

[nk4e]

then what would explain forza getting the licenses? have you seen their damage system?

Probably Microsoft backing up Turn 10? I have seen FM2 Damaging system.

 

[sher_da_putt]

I remember when i got GT3, I asked my bro this question, he said it could be companies don't want to see 1000 bhp nissan skylines beating their super cars

 

[mPWRD]

you're probably right... but sony is probably backing up pd... and we don't know if they're actually having problems with the licensing. maybe it's all going smoothly.

 

[Zer0]

Except Sony does not entirely back Polyphony like Microsoft backs Turn10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_developer

 

[nk4e]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_developer

wrong link?

Polyphony Digital Inc. is an internal video game developing company of Sony Computer Entertainment and is part of the newly formed Sony World Studios. The studio was formerly known as Polys Entertainment, but after the success of Gran Turismo they were granted greater autonomy and their name changed to Polyphony Digital.
The studio is best known for its Gran Turismo racing game series. Led by Kazunori Yamauchi, Gran Turismo has become the most successful racing series for the PlayStation and PlayStation 2. The Gran Turismo series is aimed at offering a "simulation" feel to racing video games allowing drivers to experience driving and racing cars that the average person would never be able to drive or buy in real life.

Turn 10 Studios is a Redmond, Washington-based video game developer created internally by Microsoft Game Studios. The company develops racing games for Microsoft gaming consoles.

 

[McLaren]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_developer

And?

Both are first-party developers. That does not mean Sony & Microsoft support their developers the same way or to the same length.

 

[greenlightning]

I would say that car manufactures see a big difference between GT and the others. With the others not representing cars on the same level. Might explain why they would be okay with damage on cars that are not modeled as well as GT cars. Just a thought.

 

[L8 Apex]

Apart from Enthusia (a 9-5 Aero), and that well known simulation, The Getaway With Volvo appearing in GT before now, it's surprising that Saab hasn't. Perhaps they will with GT5.

The 9-3 Viggen was in Midtown Madness 3 and I think both Forza and Forza 2 (Forza 2 for sure), while Per Eklund's 9-3 Pikes Peak racer has been in a few rally games, and the 96 was in the PC game Rally Trophy. In short, Saab isn't exactly the stingiest carmarker out there when it comes to game licensing, IMO.

 

[machscnel]

Except Sony does not entirely back Polyphony like Microsoft backs Turn10. Money is always an issue, as is exclusive deals.

However, one that most people forget are negotiations & contracts. Remember, Polyphony doesn't work like Turn10, so when Kazunori speaks with manufacturers, chances are that they don't like what they're hearing and deny Kaz. a license. What causes these differences? Who knows. Could be physics, could be options, maybe even requests by the manufacturer that Kaz. can not honor.

IMO, the negotiations are probably the biggest issue with why we don't have certain cars. Kaz. has a big dream for GT, and I'm willing to bet many manufacturers don't want to be apart of the exact same dream without compromises.

I'll have to agree with you there. If there is one thing that always bothered me about Gran Turismo it was that it seemed like Kazunori had too much control. It almost seemed like if he didn't like a track, then that track wouldn't be in the game. If he didn't like a car, then it wouldn't be in the game. I know this seems a little over the top but I'm just using it to illustrate a point. Componies like Turn 10 don't have a "Dictator" type figure running the show. You see, when you have one person making too many decisions, there is bound to be a little bias, whereas with Turn 10 it is more like "well Porsche have a rich racing pedigree and are very popular, let's have them in the game". And yes Microsoft probably help to "convince" certain companies to come around but there is no reason why Sony could not do this. I mean Forza had all these cars with damage years ago, while at the moment the chance of these cars and damage appearing in GT5 seem slim.

 

[CyborgGT]

Jeremy Clarkson says, in his review of GT4:

Of course, like just about every car firm in the world, it took BMW about five seconds to realise that PlayStation reaches a part of the market that television advertising cannot. The PlayStation generation. As a result, just about all of them bend over backwards to help the makers of the game in any way possible.

Except Ferrari.

According to the maker of the game, “some car makers want more money to be featured than all the rest of the car makers put together”. Sadly, his mobile went dead before I could confirm it was indeed the Eyeties. Technology, eh? So I rang a Ferrari spokesman who explained that his company was fantastically litigious and protective of the cars, the racers and even the noises they make. And that they already have a deal with EA Games. Well, that’s complete and utter madness, because as a result my nine-year-old is growing up wanting a Honda NSX.

EA deal my ass. NFS hasn't included one since HP2!

 

[fasj6418]

Bad PR. There's no excuse for a game like Advan Racing on the PSone have McLaren's, Porches, Lambos, Ferraris and GT struggle to get it. It appears that they just don't know how to negotiate (i mean, i guess they refuse to pay).

Maybe they only put the car in if they don't have to pay, because exclusive deals at the moment are non existant. So it's up to you and the manufacturer.

 

[machscnel]

Bad PR. There's no excuse for a game like Advan Racing on the PSone have McLaren's, Porches, Lambos, Ferraris and GT struggle to get it. It appears that they just don't know how to negotiate (i mean, i guess they refuse to pay).

Maybe they only put the car in if they don't have to pay, because exclusive deals at the moment are non existant. So it's up to you and the manufacturer.

Exactly. Games with far less of a budget and far worse a reputation(if any) have cars that we have never(and may never) seen in a Gran Turismo game. Which leads me to believe that it has nothing to do with money and more to do with Kazunori's apparent stubborness. I mean this is the guy that has never tried other racing games(even the greats like GTR, GT Legends, Live for Speed). I understand his point, that he only needs to model his games of reality, not other games, but sometimes other games just do some things better and it can be helpful to look at them to gain ideas.

 

[Japspecvr6]

Well we got over the hump with the "Ferrari" but i wouldnt be surprised if Porsche doesnt include their cars. But still i will take those newly modeled "RUFs" . Plain and simple.

 

[Tenacious D]

If there is one thing that always bothered me about Gran Turismo it was that it seemed like Kazunori had too much control. It almost seemed like if he didn't like a track, then that track wouldn't be in the game. If he didn't like a car, then it wouldn't be in the game. I know this seems a little over the top but I'm just using it to illustrate a point. Componies like Turn 10 don't have a "Dictator" type figure running the show. You see, when you have one person making too many decisions, there is bound to be a little bias, whereas with Turn 10 it is more like "well Porsche have a rich racing pedigree and are very popular, let's have them in the game". And yes Microsoft probably help to "convince" certain companies to come around but there is no reason why Sony could not do this. I mean Forza had all these cars with damage years ago, while at the moment the chance of these cars and damage appearing in GT5 seem slim.

Well, you are aware of the indications that some cars in Forza take more damage than others, aren't you? I noticed this myself, but assumed it was just Microsoft-itis rearing it's buggy head. Evidently MS could only afford so much, and had to settle for compromises.

Kazunori-dono wouldn't settle for that, I'm pretty sure, and it would be scandalous if it was implemented and discovered in a GT game. Forza is another story, as people forgive MS the equivalent of genocide.

Keep in mind that Sony Computer Entertainment is spending tons of money on many projects, from buying studios to funding them, supporting others to make sure their games are top notch, as well as making sure the investment in the PS3 and Blu-ray is covered. They may not be able to afford two or three or more king's ransoms to acquire the rights to Porsche, Lamborghini, Maserati etc, especially with MS themselves throwing crazy money around like a certain president.

And stating that Kazunori might not want a car or track included in a GT game, that doesn't sound like Kaz at all. This is the guy who insisted that dinky 60hp Suzukis were included in GT4. I'm sure he'd want every car from history, including prototypes if he could manage it.

Remember, Polyphony doesn't work like Turn10, so when Kazunori speaks with manufacturers, chances are that they don't like what they're hearing and deny Kaz. a license. What causes these differences? Who knows. Could be physics, could be options, maybe even requests by the manufacturer that Kaz. can not honor.

IMO, the negotiations are probably the biggest issue with why we don't have certain cars. Kaz. has a big dream for GT, and I'm willing to bet many manufacturers don't want to be apart of the exact same dream without compromises.

And this is how I see it too. Kaz had a dream to make Gran Turismo way back in the beginning like some kind of alternate life involving cars and motorsports, but he couldn't realize this on the more primitive PS1 and 2 hardware. Well, the PS3 has the power, rivaling many gaming PCs. While the physics has the distinct Gran Turismo gene, which some of you pointed out, it's still very advanced and revealing. I wouldn't be too surprised if some car makers wouldn't like their cars being in an environment where they could be compared freely with a number of other high performance makes. Especially direct rivals, and especially much cheaper cars.

I'm hoping this isn't the case, that these car makers are grown up about this, *cough* and relish the chance like BMW in J Clarkson's remarks above to be in the most famous racing game ever. That "by golly, if Ferrari is in there, we damn well will be too!" Work with Kaz and the lads and be a part of the family, and let us enjoy owning your cars too.

 

[machscnel]

Well, you are aware of the indications that some cars in Forza take more damage than others, aren't you? I noticed this myself, but assumed it was just Microsoft-itis rearing it's buggy head. Evidently MS could only afford so much, and had to settle for compromises.

Kazunori-dono wouldn't settle for that, I'm pretty sure, and it would be scandalous if it was implemented and discovered in a GT game. Forza is another story, as people forgive MS the equivalent of genocide.

Keep in mind that Sony Computer Entertainment is spending tons of money on many projects, from buying studios to funding them, supporting others to make sure their games are top notch, as well as making sure the investment in the PS3 and Blu-ray is covered. They may not be able to afford two or three or more king's ransoms to acquire the rights to Porsche, Lamborghini, Maserati etc, especially with MS themselves throwing crazy money around like a certain president.

And stating that Kazunori might not want a car or track included in a GT game, that doesn't sound like Kaz at all. This is the guy who insisted that dinky 60hp Suzukis were included in GT4. I'm sure he'd want every car from history, including prototypes if he could manage it.


And this is how I see it too. Kaz had a dream to make Gran Turismo way back in the beginning like some kind of alternate life involving cars and motorsports, but he couldn't realize this on the more primitive PS1 and 2 hardware. Well, the PS3 has the power, rivaling many gaming PCs. While the physics has the distinct Gran Turismo gene, which some of you pointed out, it's still very advanced and revealing. I wouldn't be too surprised if some car makers wouldn't like their cars being in an environment where they could be compared freely with a number of other high performance makes. Especially direct rivals, and especially much cheaper cars.

I'm hoping this isn't the case, that these car makers are grown up about this, *cough* and relish the chance like BMW in J Clarkson's remarks above to be in the most famous racing game ever. That "by golly, if Ferrari is in there, we damn well will be too!" Work with Kaz and the lads and be a part of the family, and let us enjoy owning your cars too.

As you stated, Gran Turismo is Kazunoris' magnum opus. He has worked for many years towards the "perfect" driving game, being limited by processing power, license restrictions etc and now with the PS3 it looks like his dream maybe realised with Gran Turismo 5. The only problem with this is of course is it is his dream. His dream game will include this car/track, the physics will feel like this, the tracks will look like that, the engines will sound like this etc. I just feel there is too much subjectivity involved when it comes to Gran Turismo. Cars are not subjective and do not drive a certain way because Kazunori deems it so. Same goes for various other things within the game.

What if Kazunoris' dream is nothing like what we want?

 

[Danny]

and that well known simulation, The Getaway

Well I liked it.

 

[S31Ender]

"What if Kazunoris' dream is nothing like what we want? "




A "long time ago in an interview far far away" he once said (in not exactly these words, but still pretty much the same) "Gran Turismo is my vision, I started making GT to realise that vision. I created it for myself and invite everyone to join if they want"

Something along those lines.
I wish I still had the link.


Anyway, my point is that we all know Kaz is pretty much in charge of this thing and won't let people sway him. I say good. Because it's arguably the best, most realistic racing game ever. It SELLS 500-600 DOLLAR SYSTEMS. Just ONE game does that.

He's obviously doing something right.
I say let the man work, and if porsche isn't in the game because they don't agree to what he wants....who cares, there's 700 other cars in the game, it's not like we're REALLY losing out on a great game just because a couple of companies aren't represented.

 

[nk4e]

I almost bought a PS3 for MGS4