Why does Polyphony have trouble licensing cars?
- Thread starter machscnel
- 70 comments
- 10,006 views
- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
There was a time when car manufacturers had to PAY to even be in GT. Without GT I personally assure you that cars like the GTR, EVO, RX7, NSX, Viper, Supra and STi would not be as big a deal as they are today. The GTR being the biggest case. I do not understand why car companies would not want to be in a video game like GT. It great ADVERTISING! Also prestigious car companies like Porsche and Lambo should logically be attracted to the more upscale (name something more respected than GT) and popular (GT is the highest selling racing series ever) venues for their adverting (not hip hop games like NFS). Also in years of record profits (Ferrari and Lambo) I do not see them needing extra money from video game licenses (which pale in comparison to their revenue from sales). I tend to agree with those that say KY's "vision" may be getting in the way of things (the car manufacturers do not agree with KY vision).
That's the first I've heard of this. The closest thing to that I've heard is that some smaller manufacturers will give Polyphony a break with the license fees, offering their cars at a significant discount, or free, in exchange for the "advertising" of having their car in Gran Turismo.
Going back to the original topic, there could be a number of reasons why certain manufacturers are absent. The only one we know of for sure was Ferrari, they used to have an exclusive license with Electronic Arts, and EA would have to effectively give permission for the cars to appear in any non-EA game on the Playstation platform (so you still get your Outrun games, etc). I'd heard (can't verify) that Ferrari ended up a little upset at this arrangement as it wore on, so when it came time for the license to be renewed, Ferrari wouldn't allow EA to have the exclusive anymore. And lo and behold, the very next GT game has Ferrari in it.
Speculation says that EA held similar exclusive licenses with Porsche and Lamborghini, and may still hold them today, but we don't know for sure. We know that Polyphony wants them... the locked Lambo and Porsche in GT3 proves that, and the constant inclusion of RUF as a sort of "stand-in" for Porsche (don't take that the wrong way, I love the RUF cars). And it would be idiotic to assume that Polyphony hasn't at least approached every single car manufacturer out there, including the exotics that we don't currently have.
At this point, I would say that any difficulty in getting a highly-desirable car license would be because another company or contract is getting in the way. Or, the license simply isn't worth it to KY to pay whatever they're asking, but that would probably only apply to less-desirable makes. If KY really wants a particular car, and there's no exclusivity in the way, I think he'd find a way to make it happen.
Personally, I'm quite happy that we've finally gotten Ferrari. And I've already gotten the chance to drive my personal favorite... the F40. Porsche is neither here nor there, but I would like to see Lamborghini. And Bugatti.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Then you should have realized this a long time ago. We've been getting bits and pieces of it all along the way. I agree with the above posters. If some of these companies don't want to be a part of the most wildly popular racing series of all time, it will seem more like an insult to me than to Kazunori and Polyphony. And I will have plenty of other cars to drive and love.
- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
I think it was Mitsubishi and/or Nissan that actually paid to have their cars in GT3 or 4 (can't remember which). I think it really speaks poorly for Porsche and Lambo that all they value is money and not a well represented name. Their respective contracts with EA and MS show this. So are Lambo's and Porsche becoming the new "tuner" cars with giant wings and stupid decals? Is that with the true spirit of Lambo and Porsche, I hope not. If I were a rich person who owned say a Lamborghini Gallardo and I saw my son playing a racing game with that same car except it had a neon green paint job, a giant wing, offensive decals and huge rims I would feel insulted. I think it is these contracts with games like NFS that really take away from the image of prestigious brands like Porsche and Lambo. Ferrari being in GT shows that they belong to a higher standard. Lets hope that other car companies realize this.
- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
That's right... And I agree with Jeremy Clarkson. When I grow up, I will end up wanting a Lotus Elise, or a Honda NSX-R. All because of a game. Why don't Lamborghini and Porsche take the risk? After all, I doubt it would hurt them at all. Unless, of course, their cars are modelled pretty bad.
- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
Exactly. The only reason I even know about half of the cars I like is because of Gran Turismo. Before GT3 I had never even heard of a Pagani Zonda or a Lotus Esprit. The thing is GT can be a great advertising opportunity for Porsche and Lambo just like it has been for Ferrari. Ex: "test drive the new 911 as it is in real life, in Gran Turismo 5". "ever wanted to know what it is like to own a Porsche? Play GT5." Or promotional videos like the one for the Ferrari California. It really is a moral problem, money over image. Sad...
- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
Seems like they are trying to dig into the question even more. They preffer to have the money now than tomorrow. Eventually, image transforms into money, because people like what they see and so are ready to spend "some" bucks. Not only that, but an image that is seen by every car enthusiast who can get access into GT5 eventually will become in a huge source of income to brands like those.
What I find as a possible excuse is that people with money, and I mean pockets that overflow with money, are the only ones who can afford that kind of cars. And I believe that Porsche, and Lamborghini, or every important car maker, for that matter, know that only those precious few, and not every kid or teenager who plays a game will ever be able to buy one of those cars, thus making the need for publicity useless. Though there's an exception to that rule, since there are many grown-up men who have been enjoying Gran Turismo for the last decade.
What I find as a possible excuse is that people with money, and I mean pockets that overflow with money, are the only ones who can afford that kind of cars. And I believe that Porsche, and Lamborghini, or every important car maker, for that matter, know that only those precious few, and not every kid or teenager who plays a game will ever be able to buy one of those cars, thus making the need for publicity useless. Though there's an exception to that rule, since there are many grown-up men who have been enjoying Gran Turismo for the last decade.
- 102
- GTP_machschnel
That's the first I've heard of this. The closest thing to that I've heard is that some smaller manufacturers will give Polyphony a break with the license fees, offering their cars at a significant discount, or free, in exchange for the "advertising" of having their car in Gran Turismo.
Going back to the original topic, there could be a number of reasons why certain manufacturers are absent. The only one we know of for sure was Ferrari, they used to have an exclusive license with Electronic Arts, and EA would have to effectively give permission for the cars to appear in any non-EA game on the Playstation platform (so you still get your Outrun games, etc). I'd heard (can't verify) that Ferrari ended up a little upset at this arrangement as it wore on, so when it came time for the license to be renewed, Ferrari wouldn't allow EA to have the exclusive anymore. And lo and behold, the very next GT game has Ferrari in it.
Speculation says that EA held similar exclusive licenses with Porsche and Lamborghini, and may still hold them today, but we don't know for sure. We know that Polyphony wants them... the locked Lambo and Porsche in GT3 proves that, and the constant inclusion of RUF as a sort of "stand-in" for Porsche (don't take that the wrong way, I love the RUF cars). And it would be idiotic to assume that Polyphony hasn't at least approached every single car manufacturer out there, including the exotics that we don't currently have.
At this point, I would say that any difficulty in getting a highly-desirable car license would be because another company or contract is getting in the way. Or, the license simply isn't worth it to KY to pay whatever they're asking, but that would probably only apply to less-desirable makes. If KY really wants a particular car, and there's no exclusivity in the way, I think he'd find a way to make it happen.
Personally, I'm quite happy that we've finally gotten Ferrari. And I've already gotten the chance to drive my personal favorite... the F40. Porsche is neither here nor there, but I would like to see Lamborghini. And Bugatti.
I wish that were true, it would explain a lot, but Ferrari, Porsche etc all appeared in non-EA games throughout the last ten years
Last edited:
- 3,239
- New York
- thepatriots
If they do not need publicity and are just after money then why are there tons of Porsche ads in magazines and on TV? Lambo not so much. But the competition over Porsche's market is stronger than ever: Nissan 370z, BMW Z4, Lotus Evora, Audi TTS, Mercedes CLK AMG, and so on.
Exactly.
At above. That is the other thing that kills me is games like Midnight Club get Lambo but GT doesn't. Ugh... Let hope their contracts are over.
Last edited:
- 102
- GTP_machschnel
Then you should have realized this a long time ago. We've been getting bits and pieces of it all along the way. I agree with the above posters. If some of these companies don't want to be a part of the most wildly popular racing series of all time, it will seem more like an insult to me than to Kazunori and Polyphony. And I will have plenty of other cars to drive and love.
That's true, but I always put the lack of damage and some cars down to lack of processing power, money etc. But the more I think about it, the more I think Kazunoris really doesn't want damage.I mean, we have been getting little bits of his dream every Gran Turismo and you think it would have some kind of damage model by now.
But to get back on topic, a car game should not be the representation of a dream, but reality and when it advertises itself as "the real driving simulator" I should be able to trust that it will be, not something that Kazunori dreamed of.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Well, considering that Forza is practically a direct copy of Gran Turismo, I'm not sure what you're saying.
Seriously, Forza could have taken a number of forms, but what did Microsoft produce? As for what real racing is like, that's a pretty broad point. What is real racing? How does one become a real race car driver? Do you go to the DMV or Wal Mart and buy an S Class license and then apply for a driver position with a team? Or does it take years of effort? So how do you put that into a game? I do want something like this, as I've mentioned here and there about Career Mode that others have latched onto with ideas of their own. But will GT5 follow that pattern? If not, I won't be broken hearted and sulk and refuse to like it. It will be what it will be, and wishing for our own version won't get us very far.
And as for damage, heck, we can't even agree what would be acceptable. Some think purely mechanical damage with no visual effects would be fine, and others disagree wholeheartedly. Some like me think partial damage would work, but others gag at the idea. Still others propose damage for professional type racing series with pro race cars only. So deciding on your own what Kazunori thinks when GT5 isn't even out yet is a bit of a stretch.
- 102
- GTP_machschnel
Well, considering that Forza is practically a direct copy of Gran Turismo, I'm not sure what you're saying.
Seriously, Forza could have taken a number of forms, but what did Microsoft produce? As for what real racing is like, that's a pretty broad point. What is real racing? How does one become a real race car driver? Do you go to the DMV or Wal Mart and buy an S Class license and then apply for a driver position with a team? Or does it take years of effort? So how do you put that into a game? I do want something like this, as I've mentioned here and there about Career Mode that others have latched onto with ideas of their own. But will GT5 follow that pattern? If not, I won't be broken hearted and sulk and refuse to like it. It will be what it will be, and wishing for our own version won't get us very far.
And as for damage, heck, we can't even agree what would be acceptable. Some think purely mechanical damage with no visual effects would be fine, and others disagree wholeheartedly. Some like me think partial damage would work, but others gag at the idea. Still others propose damage for professional type racing series with pro race cars only. So deciding on your own what Kazunori thinks when GT5 isn't even out yet is a bit of a stretch.
I'm not "sulking", far from it actually. Kazunori promised damage, is it too much to then expect damage to be in GT5?
You see I've been meaning to leave the world of consoles and upgrade my PC for GTR EVO, but when I heard/read some of Kazunoris' statements regarding GT5 I was shocked, could he really make a PC quality sim on a console? Not only was I shocked, but I put off buying a high-end PC, because judging by what Kazunori said, I wouldn't need it. But now as the the promises turn to maybe's and what little info we get dribbles out through "riddle" threads, I start to re-think my decision.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
I have a top end PC with pretty much all the PC sims and a PS3 with GT5P and believe me (well you don't have to), if you wanted to go for PC sims... GTR Evo is not my recommended choice, but it all depends what you are after.
PC sims dont appear to some because most if not all of them are based off race cars and are only about racing, where Gran Turismo is about a whole lot more than that. Really they aim for different markets that also overlap.
PC sims dont appear to some because most if not all of them are based off race cars and are only about racing, where Gran Turismo is about a whole lot more than that. Really they aim for different markets that also overlap.
- 102
- GTP_machschnel
Yeah, I heard EVO wasn't as good as GTR2 but I just wanted to try some of the newer cars that I can't use in GTR2.
I agree with what you say though, GTR etc are more about racing/race cars and Gran Turismo has a bit of everything really with an "Arcadish" career mode. As much as I love pure racing, I still come back to Prologue, I can't explain it.
On a side note, which do you prefer?
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Gran Turismo no doubt, after playing all the PC sims (not all the mods though) what they all have in common is competition, the cars are just the chariot you sit in, the meat of the game is racing (online and off), which I also enjoy but gets boring fast for me.
Gran Turismo on the other hand is all about the cars, drive them, race them, watch them (replays), photograph them, collect them, improve them (tuning), learn more about them etc etc. Most of my GT4 playing was just buying different cars and testing them out or turning them into time attack and drag monsters.
And the fact that the visuals and physics are so good now is a great bonus.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I have to agree with Viper. I bought GTR Evo myself last weekend and after fighting to get my DF Pro wheel to work properly - I hate Microsoft more than ever now - I realize just how far Kaz and the lads have taken Gran Turismo towards reality. PC sims just don't have much over Prologue, and the wealth of car collecting, modding, picture taking and who knows what else will be in GT5 just clobbers everything else.
I was going to PM this, but since some of us are curious about what's out in PC sim land, and knowing GT5 won't be here till fall - northern hemisphere - at the earliest, what PC sims do some of you like besides Live for Speed and GTR2? I also got R Factor but have yet to give it a go. I'm dreading fighting another config nightmare though... meh.
And by the way, Kazunori promised damage would be in when it was working right. Remember the complaining over penalties?
I was going to PM this, but since some of us are curious about what's out in PC sim land, and knowing GT5 won't be here till fall - northern hemisphere - at the earliest, what PC sims do some of you like besides Live for Speed and GTR2? I also got R Factor but have yet to give it a go. I'm dreading fighting another config nightmare though... meh.
And by the way, Kazunori promised damage would be in when it was working right. Remember the complaining over penalties?
Last edited:
kekke2000
Premium
- 1,936
- Sweden
- kekke2000
I think I know the story about the Ferrari... maybe it goes with the rest of the cars we haven't seen in GT.
1999
Kazunori: "Hey Ferrari! Do you want to see your car in a Playstation game we're making?"
Ferrari: "Are you crazy? This is a serious business. Give me lots of money or get out of here."
2009
Ferrari: "Hey Kaz! Can you please have some of our cars in your game. We'll give you your own brand new Ferrari and a free tour of our factory. You can even bring your camera and release the material. Pleeeaaaseee!"
Kazunori: "I'll think about it...."
1999
Kazunori: "Hey Ferrari! Do you want to see your car in a Playstation game we're making?"
Ferrari: "Are you crazy? This is a serious business. Give me lots of money or get out of here."
2009
Ferrari: "Hey Kaz! Can you please have some of our cars in your game. We'll give you your own brand new Ferrari and a free tour of our factory. You can even bring your camera and release the material. Pleeeaaaseee!"
Kazunori: "I'll think about it...."
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
I see a trend here. Exclusive big budget games with one-man visions (GT - Kaz, MGS - Hideo, Gears of War Cliffy B) sell consoles. Hmm, I wonder if it is a one-man vision that ruins games or huge corporate interference?
Personally, I have loved games with singular visions that don't hold back a lot more than Activision/EA Sequel number 38 part 5.
But wait, do those other games have many other cars? You get a game with these huge names, but little else. GT has how many different cars and manufacturers?
Perhaps it is that Gran Turismo can either have ~50 cars with all these big names or have over 700 cars with tons of little niche cars that no one else bothers to even try to get? At the end of the day a budget is a budget and if your choice is to drop two or three big names or drop a few hundred smaller names, and your goal is to create a virtual encyclopedia of cars, which do you choose?
I am not looking for Super Car Challenge, I am looking for Gran Turismo. If they sacrificed all the smaller and older cars just to afford a relative handful of super cars I would not be happy.
Maybe with DLC we will see the big names added in later.
- 30,027
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
I wonder if some people have failed to realise that barring Forza, all the other games that have featured Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini or any combination of them have featured a vastly inferior number of cars to any of the GT games in total and even inclduing Forza which has Microsofts backing (yes they are bigger than Sony) has a much smaller roster than GT4 had. If you are only paying to license 50 cars it's a lot easier to do within your budget than to license 600 cars. It's common knowledge that EA had exclusive rights to Ferrari's apearing in video games and at the very least thoes rights applied to certain console formats. Kaz did comment that he negotiated with Ferrari during GT4's development, but they wanted too much money. Since PD had so many licensed cars in GT4 paying over the odds for one more manufactrer was probably not worth it. I doubt Ferrari would have sold enough extra copies to cover the cost of the license. Once PD have a good enough roster of cars to sell the game with and extra licenses will be negotiated with care, they will be classed as luxuries and if the companies are holding out for more money than PD feel they will get back then they will say no, and why shouldn't they.
