Why Heel & Toe
- Thread starter whittle
- 41 comments
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- 1,175
Basically, you use the heel of your right foot to blip the throttle as you downshift, whilst braking smoothly with your toes. This means you can match the revs of the engine to the transmission as you drop into the next gear. The point of it is that you're in the right gear to get back on the gas, the moment you've finished slowing down, and also it doesn't upset the car so much as smacking it into a lower gear, and letting the syncros suddenly jolt the engine up (oops
) to the speed of the transmission.
To get good enough for it to be worth it, it takes about as much practice as learning to drive in the first place lol.
I'd be really interested to know if this is actually beneficial in the game, or just good practice... Any users do heel and toeing?
) to the speed of the transmission. To get good enough for it to be worth it, it takes about as much practice as learning to drive in the first place lol.
I'd be really interested to know if this is actually beneficial in the game, or just good practice... Any users do heel and toeing?
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the Interceptor
Premium
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- BEL / GER
- theInterceptor77
- 216
- Maggot666PL
But it's just "old school cool". I actually miss the clutch pedal and h-shifter (I'd like to learn the technique), so I find myself shifting with a sequential shifter on the DFGT most of the time.
Also, heel and toeing is a very healthy practice - in general it's better to be able to do that, than not.
Also, heel and toeing is a very healthy practice - in general it's better to be able to do that, than not.
- 2,119
- Somewhere only we know.
- FanofGT5
In the real world i own a motorbike & at first i was quite worried i would change down too many gears & locking the rear tyre, by mistake ( can't lock tyre with slipper clutch ).I find my coordination with my bike is more at home, when braking, changing down & blipping the throttle compared with a car.I think the reason is the engines are very highly tuned (more responsive than you remember), compared with a car engine of similar size & respond quicker than most exotic cars, also bikes have a lot more clutch plates too.I've tried pressing the clutch in & blipping the throttle ( not pressing brake ) without much speed, obviously that is completly wrong ( can be done on a bike with enough power = a lot of engine braking not advisable just saying ).
- 3,460
- Hollywood
- 1,580
- Alameda/Califor
- RADracing / RIGGracing
Haha! you don't really have to do it in GT5. People are just doing it in the game to simulate what you would have to do if you were driving a real car with a clutch and old school transmission. You can miss a gear in the game if you don't let off on the gas sometimes but you don't have to. It's just good practice for the real race car drivers that use a real clutch in thier real race cars.
This is why I have so much respect for old school rally drivers and at the same time they are going flat out at a track with only one shot to get it right with a wall of people standing in the way.
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- 1,580
- Alameda/Califor
- RADracing / RIGGracing
I'm driving with g25 and I have interesting question (video above reminds me about that)
How many of you are braking with left foot when you know that next corner is in the same gear?
I'm doing this a lot and I don't know why, reflex I think
Left foot braking, transfers the weight of the car to the front wheels while turning. It gives the front wheels more traction if the car is understeering so you try to make up for better turn in, in a corner.
- 601
- eggs2see
I don't want to come across like a tosser, but i can do this in real life no problems. Like most on here i have been a car nut since before i got my licence, so i have been trying to do this ever since. And well like most things, it just takes practice, so don't be offput by the fact it looks hard.
However im really not sure if it would add anything to this game. I think there would be a greater advantage in left foot breaking and using the car like a semi-auto.
However im really not sure if it would add anything to this game. I think there would be a greater advantage in left foot breaking and using the car like a semi-auto.
retrostate
Premium
- 117
- United Kingdom
- GTP_Retrostate
I'm driving with g25 and I have interesting question (video above reminds me about that)
How many of you are braking with left foot when you know that next corner is in the same gear?
I'm doing this a lot and I don't know why, reflex I think
This is common race tecnique as far as i'm aware it means you can have control of the brake while also being able to accellerate out of the corner. I saw a video where he said it was good because it meant you were always in control of the car or something XD
- 3,211
- Brisbane
- Punknoodle_Nick
I always use the side of my foot to control the throttle whilst heel toeing - the pedals are the right distance for me to be able to do this - I havn't got my G25 set up yet, but from feeling what the pedals are like it will be the same with the G25 as it is to the cars I heel toe in real life.
As for double de clutching - not required these days with syncros etc, but I sometimes do it just for the noise - driving a modified car with a loud exhaust sounds great
I always blip the throttle - not a heel toe (this technique is only needed if you are racing, as you generally dont need to perform a fast downshift whilst braking in normal traffic
) - when down shifting just to alleviate the sudden engine braking, and so your syncros aren't working as hard to bring your secondary gear up to speed, although it probably isn't that big a deal to the syncros.My old Celica GTR has stuffed syncros on the second gear, so I learnt pretty quickly how to do this so it wouldn't crunch going into the gear.
- 1,702
- balang_479
I use heel-toe in GT5P because it's that's what you're supposed to do in real life in a car with a manual clutch. It's not faster than auto-clutch, but if done right it is faster than using a clutch without heel-toeing.
Heel and toe is just rev-matching while braking. The main purpose is to avoid upsetting the car while threshold braking and down shifting. If you are braking on the limit (100% of the tires' available traction), then downshift without rev-matching, you get more braking force via engine braking. This causes lock-up and also upsets the weight balance of the car.
I think it's more fun and a little easier to learn in real life. It's much more obvious when you get it right or wrong because you can feel the car. A perfect heel-toe downshift is not noticeable except for the sound. I'm learning, but I can say it feels good to get it just right.
I think often it has to do with the pedal size, shape, and spacing. On the G25, use the side of my foot. In my RX7, I have to use more of my heel because the pedals are different...and I have relatively small feet.
Heel and toe is just rev-matching while braking. The main purpose is to avoid upsetting the car while threshold braking and down shifting. If you are braking on the limit (100% of the tires' available traction), then downshift without rev-matching, you get more braking force via engine braking. This causes lock-up and also upsets the weight balance of the car.
I think it's more fun and a little easier to learn in real life. It's much more obvious when you get it right or wrong because you can feel the car. A perfect heel-toe downshift is not noticeable except for the sound. I'm learning, but I can say it feels good to get it just right.
that's cool, make me want to learn how to double clutch.
I think often it has to do with the pedal size, shape, and spacing. On the G25, use the side of my foot. In my RX7, I have to use more of my heel because the pedals are different...and I have relatively small feet.
- 818
Maybe GT5 should have a similar option to GTR evo, where you select "auto clutch" the car will rev match for you and not cut out when you stop while still in gear. Or "manual" clutch, where you have to match the revs yourself and the engine can stall.
Personally I can't comfortably heel-toe with the G25. I normally race with socks, and the spacing of the pedals means it hurts my foot to heel-toe, and I can't do it without slightly letting off the brakes each blip. I can do it better with shoes on, but I dont own any shoes nice for racing, my shoes i wear every day have massive thick soles and are too imprecise to use for racing.
Odlly enough I can heel-toe better in my real car because the pedals are spaced out better than the G25 pedals, though I dont usually bother heel toeing in my real car as the situation rarely arises where I want to be braking and changing gears at the same time.
Personally I can't comfortably heel-toe with the G25. I normally race with socks, and the spacing of the pedals means it hurts my foot to heel-toe, and I can't do it without slightly letting off the brakes each blip. I can do it better with shoes on, but I dont own any shoes nice for racing, my shoes i wear every day have massive thick soles and are too imprecise to use for racing.
Odlly enough I can heel-toe better in my real car because the pedals are spaced out better than the G25 pedals, though I dont usually bother heel toeing in my real car as the situation rarely arises where I want to be braking and changing gears at the same time.
- 1,376
- GTP_LSX
Heel-toeing is lot's of fun, I can't speak for doing it while using a G25. In a standard shift street car I can however. As others have said, it makes a downshift between two gears seamless, the drive line never receives a shock of power, or sudden braking that will upset your rear tires, probably front tires too, but I've never done HT in a front drive car. Not to mention you are never having to lift from the brake or accelerator pedal, keeping the car under full control.
After some time it can become second nature, just doing it under normal driving, however if you find an empty back road to push on, it makes it all the more fun. Besides all that, it's one of the best noises a car can make when your rev-matching, well aside from flat throttle up shifts that is. That however serves no purpose in city driving, and can lead to a loss of traction if your not careful. I've only used it for drag racing, heel-toeing I've used for commuting to work, not necessary, but it sure if fun.
Do open throttle up shifts gain you anything with a G-25? (Accelerator to the floor, pulling against the shift handle pressure, kicking clutch which releases pressure slotting into the next gear. Do the shift handles even lock up like a real car under power or can you just gently pull it out?) I don't have one, but it would be interesting if you could do that and gain time seeing as how others have said heel-toeing serves no purpose. It would be even cooler if you could screw that or heel-toeing up in GT5 and screw up a gear in your transmission, that could lead to taking some care during shifts.
After some time it can become second nature, just doing it under normal driving, however if you find an empty back road to push on, it makes it all the more fun. Besides all that, it's one of the best noises a car can make when your rev-matching, well aside from flat throttle up shifts that is. That however serves no purpose in city driving, and can lead to a loss of traction if your not careful. I've only used it for drag racing, heel-toeing I've used for commuting to work, not necessary, but it sure if fun.
Do open throttle up shifts gain you anything with a G-25? (Accelerator to the floor, pulling against the shift handle pressure, kicking clutch which releases pressure slotting into the next gear. Do the shift handles even lock up like a real car under power or can you just gently pull it out?) I don't have one, but it would be interesting if you could do that and gain time seeing as how others have said heel-toeing serves no purpose. It would be even cooler if you could screw that or heel-toeing up in GT5 and screw up a gear in your transmission, that could lead to taking some care during shifts.
that's the trick, isn't it?
That's probably the most difficult part. I'm not very good at it. Actually I just need to work on braking period. (ABS off makes for good practice )I use socks, too. I have some driving shoes which are great in a real car, but they don't work so well with the G25 pedals.
yeah, me too.
- 1,137
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg
Just look how the master is doing the h&t
I wish i would have bought a G25 back then and not a DFGT...
Edit:
Just wonder... the old F1 cars till the 90`s had manual transmission. Do you think the drivers had to h&t at those crazy speeds?
Just look how the master is doing the h&t
I wish i would have bought a G25 back then and not a DFGT...
Edit:
Just wonder... the old F1 cars till the 90`s had manual transmission. Do you think the drivers had to h&t at those crazy speeds?
- 3,991
- Netherlands
I also love how he blips the throttle when exiting a corner.
I only have a DFP, but are you faster when you blip the gas when you downshift to match the revs better? I don't know anything about this technique so...
And matching the revs means the highest revs the car can do right?
- 818
I also love how he blips the throttle when exiting a corner.
I only have a DFP, but are you faster when you blip the gas when you downshift to match the revs better? I don't know anything about this technique so...
It doesn't make you "faster" exactly, but it makes the car stable when downshifting. Normally when you downshift, the engine "wants" to speed up (lower gear = higher revs), but you take your foot off the throttle making the revs drop, so when you release the clutch, the car jerks as the engine suddenly has to speed up (or car has to slow down) to match the revs. If you're already on the limit of traction, this sudden engine braking jerk can make you lose control of the rear end of the car (in a rear wheel drive car).
However if the game automatically rev matches for you, there's no need to heel-toe.
