Yellow flag discussion

[simsimsheree]

Racing without yellows isn't really racing, is it? Safety cars (or virtual safety cars) are a part of racing. But conspicuously absent in most racing games. Sometimes you get lip service to flags (blue flags after you lap a car? Really?!) but the primary type of flag, the yellow, seems to be a complete failure.

How can this be fixed? I have a suggestion...

A large crash ought to bring out a yellow. But how do you corral the drivers back for a restart? How about the same mechanism that auto-drives your car before the rolling starts? That's basically the same concept as the virtual safety car, but allowing the pack to bunch back up again and restart (yes, it would be nice for an AI safety car, but I'm trying to come up with the simplest solution). Unless the accident is on the last corner (or last sector, maybe?), the AI take over, bunch up the pack in order (automatically returning position if penalties deem it proper) and then release before the last corner ready for a green in the usual place a green happens on a normal rolling start (and hopefully, SMS fix their flawed rolling start detection).

From much online experience in casual rooms (that probably need yellows more than most, LOL) it is next to impossible to get everyone to obey no passing rules and a standardized speed and restart procedures, so handing the cars off to the AI until before the last corner seems to be the way to do it.

Any ideas, improvements, suggestions?

I'd also like to suggest that, like in real life, any track debris is removed (poof!) behind the pack once it gets out of sight. Bits of broken cars, trackside barriers etc. have no place remaining on track for the entirety of a race. Same with disabled cars. No, I realize it's a major job to animate them being removed. But from a driver's perspective, you rarely SEE them getting removed (unless it takes so long you lap the incident site), so I have no problem with them simply evaporating, and that isn't tough to code.

Once again, as always, any major change to the game like this should be under total host control. Don't want yellow flags? Don't enable them. But with online being the way it is, with PC2's very touchy collision physics, some kind of optional yellow system that doesn't rely on perfect understanding of yellow rules and voluntary obedience would go a long way to tightening up racing and making that inevitable first corner pileup from totally destroying a race for the racers (plus give the host time to deal with trolls and wreckers after SMS regain their sanity and reintroduce host kick).

What do you think?

 

[The_American]

Parts, cones and objects disappear from the track in 60 seconds. Or they should, it was like that in pc1

Yup, the game needs better race control logic. If not full course cautions with safety cars, then at least code 60

Looking forward to project cars 3

 

[simsimsheree]

I'm not really a fan of the Code 60 or virtual safety cars. To a certain degree, once the pack has separated themselves sufficiently and pure race pace is the major factor, if the gap remains the same under yellow, there is little change or excitement at a restart. Sure, maybe on a short sprint, the pack is still bunched pretty tightly. But longer races, it remains spread and little excitement happens.

This is even worse in anything online but very tightly qualified and competent League rooms. I spectate quite a bit online in public rooms, and two cars within a second or so of each other is a rarity. I like the idea of something that allows those victimized at the start to get back up to the pack and take a second crack at the podium (probably a little more cautiously after the first shunt!). Possibly the restart needs a looser pack than the rolling starts, to avoid too much T1 shenanigans, but my experience online has shown me that most drivers after their first spin tend to straighten up and fly right a bit more unless trolls! And allowing the host to kick while the AI control his car would help with that...

I always used to feel bad for good hosts, forced to fall back while they kicked those causing mayhem. I think there's quite a bit of upside to a system that hands off the cars while a restart is organized.

Possibly an option to disable yellows for the last couple of laps would also stop the system being misused? I can see someone getting dirty when trailing by under a lap to give them a shot at the podium..!

And yes, I think I was thinking about Shift when I mentioned track debris (that game would leave concrete berms blocking most of a track if trolls would push them there!) but I have seen cars out of fuel sitting on corner apexes when the AI run out of fuel...

 

[Bealdor]

I'm not really a fan of the Code 60 or virtual safety cars. To a certain degree, once the pack has separated themselves sufficiently and pure race pace is the major factor, if the gap remains the same under yellow, there is little change or excitement at a restart. Sure, maybe on a short sprint, the pack is still bunched pretty tightly. But longer races, it remains spread and little excitement happens.

Yeah but that's exactly the point of code 60. Don't punish the leader who worked his butt off to get a 15s lead by putting a safety car in front of him and making him lose his gap, just because someone else crashed.

 

[simsimsheree]

In which case, why have yellows at all? There's a difference between the real world and a game. We play for the excitement, for the thrill of close racing. We seldom get it.

Me, I'd rather have some good clean close racing and lose than a win with no-one in sight. But that's just me, I guess.

I can hotlap and work on my lap times offline all day long. But racing with cars in close proximity, to look for overtaking strategies, to work on my defending, you only get that while the pack is bunched. Without yellows and a regroup, you get it once a race. What a waste!

 

[pyrates]

The best would be to have it as an option when setting up the lobby then I guess, no race neutralization, code 60 or full safety car.

 

[simsimsheree]

Exactly.

Looking forward to project cars 3

Kind of dreading it, actually. Unless the huge list of unfixed bugs gets a major decrease before the next game, it pretty much shows the path for how PC3 will be.

Yep, we might get a Code 60 or full course yellows and a pace car, but can anyone feel confident that it will actually work properly when they can't even get rolling starts right in THIS game?

 

[twitcher]

Yeah but that's exactly the point of code 60. Don't punish the leader who worked his butt off to get a 15s lead by putting a safety car in front of him and making him lose his gap, just because someone else crashed.

That arguement stands in real life racing. In online sprint racing, half the time someone has a big lead to begin with is because they caused a major crash in T1 but snuck through unscathed while the world exploded behind them.

In good lobbies where people are on mics, I’ve often seen and heard people manually call for safety cars. The leader controls the pace, let’s everyone catch up, even do a lap under yellow to let people pit, and then go back at it. If necessary, the host will literally pull over, kick bad drivers, then retake their position. I’ve even been in lobbies without mics where, after a big T1 crash, the leader will hold up and start weaving left to right to indicate they're behind a safety car. Sometimes an idiot will fly by thinking they’ve taken the lead, but usually most people get it and play along.

The point is, majority of us play these games for fun, to get a little taste of the glory that is driving a race car, but mostly because we are NOT professional racecar drivers, and therefor bound to make mistakes.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t get toooo much enjoyment out of spending 15-30 minutes waiting around for qualifying to end, starting in the top 5, then getting taken out in T1 because someone ran out of talent, and spending the next 5-10 laps racing noooobody.

I find the races with a manditory stop help the scenario of getting taken out in T1, you have at least some hope of making up some places if you can limp back to the pits on lap one with some pace. Otherwise though, in an online race, most of the time you get about 5-10 seconds of racing with people, there’s a big accident, and then you run a 15 minute practice session doing solo laps.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not one of those sour pusses who gives up after a T1 incedent, I press on regardless, and I’ve actually been amazed at how high up i can finish after being 30 seconds behind the leader after T1. Majority of those situations though, it’s still mostly solo lapping and overtaking people in the pits.

 

[simsimsheree]

Agreed. Most of the time, the leader didn't work his butt off to get a 15sec lead... he got it because some troll caused a massive pileup in the first sector and it got handed to him as most of his competition got taken out.

I do like the idea of a more spread out restart, to minimize T1 carnage on a restart, but I don't think it's fair to a strong competitor NOT in first that the leader gets the benefits of the incompetence of the back markers. A two or three second spread at restart (as the AI will control the cars up to the green, it should be relatively simple for them to set the start gap) would allow the leader a clean restart, and then we would see whether he worked his butt off for that 15 sec lead, or got it handed to him!

Personally, I would welcome the chance of a renewed battle for first were a yellow to come out, even if leading. Much better that than hotlapping alone, knowing that my worthy competition got taken out by a troll...

 

[jake2013guy]

I completely agree. Yellows and SCs are a part of racing. However, you can have racing without yellows. I'm in 2 IndyCar leagues which run manual SCs slightly differently with each having a similar effect. It's mixed up some races for better or for worse on my side.

The issue with implementing this is that there are a lot of series implemented in game and yellows in "Formula X" (F1) are implemented very differently to IndyCar. And the same with Le Mans and an IMSA race. Although this issue could be improved with options. E.g. VSCs, Closing the Pitlane, Unlapping Cars.

If you have an issue with trolls causing SCs, just turn it off. I think most public lobby races are far too short for SCs to have an effect.

Spoiler: Side Note

This is what I mean in the other thread. There's no unnecessary developer slagging off here.

 

[simsimsheree]

Spoiler

I guarantee, the tone of the suggestion won't make the slightest difference. In fairness, I'm not criticizing a poorly designed yellow and SC system. There isn't one at all. That will have to wait until SMS do their usual buggy implementation of it, and then you can revisit this, LOL