Zenith's 1967 Mustang LS Swap

[CAMAROBOY69]

Haha, nooooo dude, coil covers for the ugly exposed coils of the LS.

ohhh haha. But coil overs will still be good if he doesn't have those yet.

 

[Cano]

ohhh haha. But coil overs will still be good if he doesn't have those yet.

Oh yeah indeed, but let him finish the engine swap first then we'll talk suspénsion. Altough iirc he already has coil-overs?

 

[Zenith]

The front suspension was done on a budget, so it's still coil and shock. Eventually that will change. The rear suspension will likely need attention after I try to put down 400+hp on leaf springs. I'm going to go to go a 3 link coilover setup with a torque arm.

As far as coil covers, I'm going to finish the swap first. It is possible to move the coils to another point in the engine bay, or there are MSD coils that I think actually look good.

 

[Paulie]

Nice Mustang, great taste.👍

 

[Fastcarguy]

It pisses people off. I love it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So um I'm just curious where is this magical ford's part pit/bin that Slash is so aware of any time situations like this arise on gtplanet? Cause I'd love to know, I mean even other Ford nerds don't seem this knowledgeable in were the droves of old ford parts exist. The only thing I've have more trouble finding parts for in a junkyard was Dodge engine parts from the same V8 extended eras.

 

[Slash]

So um I'm just curious where is this magical ford's part pit/bin that Slash is so aware of any time situations like this arise on gtplanet? Cause I'd love to know, I mean even other Ford nerds don't seem this knowledgeable in were the droves of old ford parts exist. The only thing I've have more trouble finding parts for in a junkyard was Dodge engine parts from the same V8 extended eras.

There's heaps of them laying around here, plus my Dad knows a few people that are Ford nuts. We used to get some really cool NOS hookups when the local Ford dealership was around. I got a brand new 1969 Boss 302 4 barrel intake in the box/bag that was never used back in '04-ish. I went with him to pick it up, that was cool. There's a Boss 429 motor sitting in a guys garage about 20 minutes from me and some big block FE's as well.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

There's heaps of them laying around here, plus my Dad knows a few people that are Ford nuts. We used to get some really cool NOS hookups when the local Ford dealership was around. I got a brand new 1969 Boss 302 4 barrel intake in the box/bag that was never used back in '04-ish. I went with him to pick it up, that was cool. There's a Boss 429 motor sitting in a guys garage about 20 minutes from me and some big block FE's as well.

That doesn't answer my question though, and to be honest yes I'm sure you could find some but not in droves like the mass produced LS which are still being made (and then will become LT as I said earlier in this thread) and even if they weren't being made, the production cycle is still newer than any windsor as @Zenith has put it. You perpetuating that relative easiness of finding a windsor engine to that of an LS is like me telling you I could easily find dead dinosaur remains opposed to that of any domesticated dog. Do you get what I'm saying?

Also the 429 mention is for what? To impress, because that has nothing to do with the line of engines we're talking about and you know this.

 

[Slash]

That doesn't answer my question though, and to be honest yes I'm sure you could find some but not in droves like the mass produced LS which are still being made (and then will become LT as I said earlier in this thread) and even if they weren't being made, the production cycle is still newer than any windsor as @Zenith has put it. You perpetuating that relative easiness of finding a windsor engine to that of an LS is like me telling you I could easily find dead dinosaur remains opposed to that of any domesticated dog. Do you get what I'm saying?

Ford built 200 gazillion Windsors over the span of almost 50 years....they aren't that hard to find. I get what your saying, but if you can't find a Windsor then you're not looking very hard.

And they still do make them; just not in production cars.

Also the 429 mention is for what? To impress, because that has nothing to do with the line of engines we're talking about and you know this.

Just as an example that there's an abundance of stuff around since Boss motors are uncommon. No biggie 👍

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ford built 200 gazillion Windsors over the span of almost 50 years....they aren't that hard to find. I get what your saying, but if you can't find a Windsor then you're not looking very hard.

Well you're forgetting though, while they built a ton, it was over a period long ago and one that ended quite some time ago. As to where the amount of various easy to build and mod LS engines are still around have been around for nearly two decades already, and when you think about the the fact that car production has jumped in the more recent decades that means more of these engines are around compared to the start of windsor production. Also just like the windsor LS or Vortec or Lxx engines are put in everything that is given a V8 tag, hell you can find trashed Chevy Colorado with them, I don't know of any small ford truck you could do that with.

But despite all that, even if you could find one. At the end of the day the factor you still can't quantify and have done a poor job in doing so is the price. And the sheer volume of mods that were done with these engines and now are manufactured through GM and various aftermarket groups. That unlike Ford don't exist.

Just as an example that there's an abundance of stuff around since Boss motors are uncommon. No biggie 👍

Yeah and I'm sure there is some old crazy in the backwoods of the Appalachian's hording Chrysler RB motors and Hemi motors, and what he sees as an every day abundance isn't what we see.[/QUOTE]

 

[AnthonyD1993]

Do you think that an off the shelf shorty header would work, or is it way too tight in the bay?

 

[Zenith]

@Slash you mention that you "know a guy." Most people trying to do swaps don't know a guy. They're usually not Ford people because if they were Ford people they would've just bought a Ford in the first place.

When we say availability, we need to be able to obtain the engine. Even if there are thousands, it doesn't matter if people can't get their hands on it easily.

Do you think that an off the shelf shorty header would work, or is it way too tight in the bay?

I want to avoid shorties. They really aren't much better than an iron manifold and require almost as much work as a long tube.

 

[Zenith]

It is time for a long overdue update. I've been getting work done, just not updating my thread because I'm hard working enough to deal with all this crap but too lazy to keep records of what I actually did. Go figure.

I've been following a similar path as this dude in his Cougar build. It's been good to share experiences with the steering rack, headers, hydraulic clutch, and more. We've been working independently but reaching similar cars and conclusions.

Since my last update I've finished the pedal box. The brake and clutch pedal shafts were updated to heavy duty bearings and their supports were reinforced. Here's an example, not my photo. Anyone who's driven an old Mustang knows that the pedals are loose and can be kicked around easily. Mine probably had about 3 inches of side to side play. It didn't feel like a quality product before, but now the pedals move along a smooth arc. It feels much more like a modern car.

Here's the final product.

I used the Modern Driveline Hydraulic Clutch conversion to convert the old Z-bar mechanical linkage to the T56's hydraulic setup. This would also aid in exhaust routing. The kit was nice, but not perfect. A couple of bolts could have been selected to better suit their task and there was a bad fitting pair in the Wilwood master cylinder.

Here's the pedal setup before I actually hooked it up. Notice how close it is to the parking brake. As I said, not a perfect kit.

Immediately there was an issue with clearance with the brake master cylinder. As you can see from this picture, the clutch master is located right next to the booster. My 8" diameter master would not fit.

Luckily a friend had a 7" diameter one that he was planning on using for a Jeep. After a bit of grinding on the outer body of the clutch master, the parts fit together.

Basically every control that the driver interacts with on this car exists in a 1.5ft cube on the firewall. Brake booster, master, distribution block, lines, clutch pedal linkage, master, more lines, steering column. Everything is in this tiny corner and it is a packaging miracle that it was able to fit. I'm considering going back to a manual brake setup for packaging and because I'm not confident the brakes will have all the boost they need.

In this photo you can see the braided line from the clutch master. I took the liberty of reinforcing the firewall around the steering column lower mount. There's a lower mount for the steering column, then the firewall, then a layer of neoprene, then a layer of rubber (included with the rack kit), and finally another plate to hold it all together. We also have great clearance for headers, but more on that later.

The final step in the pedal box was the throttle pedal. Although my L9H came with a pedal, it was too bulky to fit well and too plastic for my taste. I picked up a Corvette style DBW throttle pedal. Once again, I was low on real estate. The fuse box was moved over a couple inches and a mounting plate was fabricated and welded in on the firewall. The firewall was curved where I wanted to mount the throttle so this was a stomp-proof solution. You can see in this repeat image how the throttle pedal mounting plate fits snugly between the fuse box and the bottom of the brake/clutch pedal bracket.

The throttle pedal was placed so that I could rest my foot against the carpet and keep good throttle control. There are plenty of pedal options if I want to move the throttle closer to the brake in order to heel-toe more easily. Luckily this setup is very well placed for my sized foot.


The next part of the driver controls section was the shifter. I got a nice deal on a MGW short shifter from LS1Tech, so it was time to install it. Given the engine's setback, the original shifter hole was slightly too far forward. A bit of the floor was chopped out and rearranged to extend the shifter hole.

Removing undercoating to weld.

Nice. I quickly threw a seat back in and quickly discovered that the shift was too far forward. The MGW shifter can be clocked in 90 degree increments, so in order to bring it closer to me I clocked it to 6 o'clock position. Word of advice: bring a torch. MGW found it necessary to Red Loctite that bolt you see up top. It will not budge unless you heat it up. If anyone has experience with MGW shifters coming loose without Red Loctite, I'd love to hear the justification for it. After this minor annoyance, clocking the shifter back simply wasn't enough. With my back to the seat, I would be uncomfortable making 1st, 3rd, and 5th shifts. I put the stick in a hydraulic press and bent it. The final result should be close enough for me to shift easily once a knob is on there. If this fails then I'll have to think of something else. For now I'm happy with it. It feels extremely notchy, but the throws are short and the centering springs are strong. I bet it'll get better once the synchros are worn in and the trans has fluid in it.

I also installed the slave cylinder in the T56 but didn't take any pictures. It's been done a million times.

Finally the car has a starter, steering, and clutch. It was ready for headers. Three distinct options arose.

Andrew took the easy packaging approach. Hooker makes cast iron manifolds that fit very well between the cramped shock towers of the Mustang.

Another popular option is to take 302 or 352 Windsor headers are swap the flanges. This was recommended by much of the internet and Griggs Racing. Unfortunately I've seen a few of these endeavors turn into massive wastes of time, money, and metal. Bruce warned me that this would probably not work with the engine set where it was in my car, so I went with option C.

Custom headers!

The specs were as follows:

Stainless Steel - California gas is extremely corrosive now with all that Ethanol. Many classic car guys are losing their mild steel headers to corrosion.
1-3/4 primary tubes - According to my research, the gains of 1-7/8 simply aren't significant enough to deal with the added packaging constraint between the Mustang's shock towers.
4 O2 bungs total - 2 for O2 bungs, 2 for AFR.
V-band clamps and flex pipes - The flex pipes are to allow the exhaust to grow and shrink with heat and not stress hangers or header bolts too much.

These were built by Sanderson Headers in San Francisco. They did very impressive work.

The rack placement and the general layout of the car made fitment a breeze once the tubes got past the shock towers. I highly recommend anyone with a first gen Mustang or Cougar use the TCP rack in order to get a good engine placement. The tubes fit right through the sections of the transmission crossmember.

I figured that I was always eventually going to go to some proper headers, so I might as well get it done right now. Here are some shots of the fitment.

Right now the car is waiting on a driveshaft (ordered), fuel (ordered), intake plumbing, and wiring.

Also I bought a Maier strut tower brace on black friday because I felt a properly designed export brace would help with the added power. Also the chrome on my current export brace was starting to look a bit cheesy. This will look good caging in the LS.

In the meantime, I'm working on intake plumbing. My current plan is this, but I need to get the engine accessories on first.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Awesome update. Love that shot.

 

[Cano]

The headers

 

[Harry6784]

Nice progress! It's coming along nicely

Also I've got the exact same shifter on my Bird, like you said it's quite notchy at first but once you break it in it's amazing. One of the best shifters you can mate with a T-56, good choice 👍

 

[Zenith]

Awesome update. Love that shot.

The headers

I love them. I'm going to get them coated with a proper thermal barrier coating. They'll be ceramic white in the end.

Nice progress! It's coming along nicely

Also I've got the exact same shifter on my Bird, like you said it's quite notchy at first but once you break it in it's amazing. One of the best shifters you can mate with a T-56, good choice 👍

There's a mod you can do that requires removing and shimming one bolt on the trans. This reduces the pre-load in a detent spring and makes the shift easier. Very easy job. You should consider it if the shift feels too hard.

Random musing:
I studied the modernized pro-touring/restomod Mustang build that my car is the evil twin to. The more I learn about the Ford Modular motor, the more I think it is a poor fit in these tiny chassis.

The entire front suspension must be removed and replaced. Usually with a Mustang II rack and crossmember. Because they chopped into the chassis, they've losing some chassis stiffness. The rack and suspension unit itself doesn't have good suspension geometry or even a good amount of travel. This is basically a generic hot rod part, like a Chevy 350, a Turbo 400, or a Ford 9 inch. Some people shell out the extra cash for a McPherson strut which solves the suspension issues, but that's very expensive.

Then with the big fat crossmember under there, the engine has too sit high. Many have to run a raised hood, most can't even run even the most basic strut tower chassis stiffeners. Even worse is that the 4.6L (not so much the higher dollar Coyotes) only really respond well to boost, and adding one of the popular superchargers further raises the Cg and hood clearance issues. The motor sits on the car, not in it.

Some people even resorted to putting the Mod motor an inch or so to the side in order to make room for the steering.

It's too high, man!

I would expect many of those cars to be front heavy, wallowing pigs with no comfort over bumps. The crossmember is heavy, the steering rack is more forward, the engine and transmission are both forward and high.

Honestly the powertrain placement that is possible with a 351W offsets any weight difference. The Mustang's chassis is nice enough that the real racers can get good weight balance with their smallblocks and beefy transmissions by using engine setback and some other chassis mods.

 

[Slash]

I always wondered why people wanted to stuff 4.6s in these. I can understand maybe when they were new, but with Coyotes now its pretty pointless IMO.

 

[Zenith]

I always wondered why people wanted to stuff 4.6s in these. I can understand maybe when they were new, but with Coyotes now its pretty pointless IMO.

The Coyote is slightly smaller than the 4.6L DOHC, so it helps the issue a bit, but IMO not enough to make a proper sports car without serious chassis modification.

 

[Slash]

The Coyote is slightly smaller than the 4.6L DOHC, so it helps the issue a bit, but IMO not enough to make a proper sports car without serious chassis modification.

Yeah the first gens were a tight squeeze. I never really looked into what needed to be done for a Coyote but I knew for a 4.6L it took some serious work considering they are even bigger than the massive Boss 429 that was shoehorned into 1969 chassis which were even bigger than what you're working with. I figure it might be a bit easier with a Coyote. How much less work is it?

 

[Zenith]

Yeah the first gens were a tight squeeze. I never really looked into what needed to be done for a Coyote but I knew for a 4.6L it took some serious work considering they are even bigger than the massive Boss 429 that was shoehorned into 1969 chassis which were even bigger than what you're working with. I figure it might be a bit easier with a Coyote. How much less work is it?

 

[Slash]

Yup still requires quite a bit of fabbing

When do you think yours will finally be on the road?

 

[Zenith]

Yup still requires quite a bit of fabbing

When do you think yours will finally be on the road?

I'm going to guess by the end of May. I'm fairly busy and certain parts need coating/shipping time.

 

[Slash]

I'm going to guess by the end of May. I'm fairly busy and certain parts need coating/shipping time.

I demand vids when it's done.

 

[Zenith]

I found this yesterday and my erection still hasn't subsided.

 

[Harry6784]

Yea remember reading about that couple months back. Thought it was cool until I saw the estimated price tag...


$2700+

 

[Zenith]

Yea remember reading about that couple months back. Thought it was cool until I saw the estimated price tag...


$2700+

Nooo....

That's more than the rest of the transmission, bellhousing, and hydraulics... I don't know how they expect to sell at that price.

The system would need proper dog gears to truly get fast shifts. I'm not exactly sure what they're thinking. Maybe they think being first to market is all they need.

Well I hope the final price is sub-2K. I'd be interested in it then.

 

[Zenith]

GTP, I need opinions.

I priced out gauges for my car. For this swap every single gauge needs replacing with a modern unit. Speedhut.com makes some nice customizable gauges and I can even make some custom artwork for them. However, It turns out the price for gauge set of tach, speedo, oil pressure, water temp, and fuel level is very nearly the price of a complete digital dash.

The one I've got my eye on is the RacePak IQ3 display that I can mount to my steering column.

From a purely visual standpoint, what works better: old school gauges or a high tech racepak? Other suggestions welcome.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Coming from someone that has swapped retro with modern interior AND has owned a 67 Fastback Mustang, I would swap your stock round gauges for round Autometer gauges. I absolutely LOVE the 67 Mustang interior and to see some Autometer gauges stuffed in place would be absolutely sick. The gauges can be manual or electronic. I swapped to all autometer gauges in my 69 Camaro and they were VERY easy to install. Hooking the speedometer up to the T56 was 1 wire and was very easy to calibrate. Plus they have a LOT of design options. I think for all 5 of my gauges it was only a few hundred dollars. This way you could keep the beautiful stock 67 Mustang interior with a nice modern update.

I have had the Autometer gauges in my car for at least 10+ years. I have fuel, oil, temp, tach and speedo. You can see the pics in my sig. I built a custom gauge cluster pod for my car because it has 4th gen interior. No one sold a pod to fit 5" gauges. I was literally THE first person in the world to stuff 5" Autometer gauges into a 4th gen interior. Sold the design for many years. So if you need help, let me know. When I still had the 67 Mustang I was going to stuff autometers into it for sure.

Quick google search for "67 Mustang autometer gauges" (I have these same silver Ultra lites in my Camaro)

You could also go with Dakota Digital

 

[Ronald6]

As usually I agree with @CAMAROBOY69.

I will add: whatever you do make it your own. Don't try to please other people, make sure you're happy with it