For many fans, GT Sport is still largely a mystery. With the public beta officially cancelled, the chances of playing the game before its November release are limited. There are exceptions, like the Nürburgring 24H race this past weekend, and of course the big event in downtown London that wrapped up the week before.
Numerous GTPlanet members were able to attend the semi-public portion of the event on Friday May 20th, and you can read a collection of their experiences in this forum thread. Alongside the community members, a significant portion of the GTP staff attended as well. Scaff has been with the ‘Planet for almost 13 years, and he sat down to answer some in-depth questions regarding GT Sport’s physics.
GTPlanet: Can you introduce yourself, for readers who aren’t familiar with you nor your qualifications?
Hi. I’m Scaff. I’ve been a lifelong car and motorsport fan and have worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life, the bulk of which has been in or around training. I’ve designed, developed and delivered a wide range of automotive training products, including a number that have focused on vehicle dynamics and driver skills training.
GTPlanet: What were your main concerns with GT6’s physics engine, and why?
Let me first of all caveat this with the fact that GT6 did move the game on (in physics terms) from GT5, however a few concerns did still remain. The main ones were low speed tyre behaviour, damper modelling and aero.
At the risk of getting an internet mob on my tail, let me explain.
The low speed tyre model issue demonstrated itself when you launched a car from standstill, with no step-out from the rear or torque steer from the front. Now PD did fix this to a degree late in GT6’s life, with step-out occurring in MR models quite well, however it was still far too mild in FR and non-existent in FF.
Damper modelling has long been a GT area of weakness, particularly with older cars, which remained over-damped (they would settle on the springs far too quickly) and this was to a degree compounded with load transfer that reduced the effect of lift-off oversteer.
Finally the affect of aero at speed was far, far lower than it should be, as a result racecars on slicks with full aero packages just simply didn’t corner and brake as they should.
GTPlanet: With those bases covered pretty thoroughly, tell us about your first experience with GT Sport last week.
I was able to spend far longer driving that I had expected at the event, and as such tried out a good range of cars:
- Mazda Roadster S (ND)
- Mazda Roadster S (ND) N200
- Volkswagen Golf GTi mk7
- Lotus Evora
- Renault RS.01 GT3
- Aston Martin V12 Vantage GT3
- Peugeot 908 HDi FAP
I stuck to the Brands Hatch GP circuit and the Nurburgring for tracks, as I know both well and in total got around one and a half hours of seat time with around 10 to 15 laps of the Brands Hatch GP circuit in each. Of course zero driver aids were used for any of these.
First and most important, its a significant step forward from GT6 in all areas, the tyre model is far more progressive with break-away better modelled. Suspension and weight transfer again have improved and most noticeable of all the aero model has come along in a big way.
The Aero was the easiest to feel and the most significant change for me, as I moved from cars which should lift at speed (the MX-5) through the RS.01, the GT3 Aston to the 908 they all felt far more planted through the corners, you could brake later and harder and feel the additional benefit of the aero load. When the aero’s working you can get the power down and brake hard and feel the extra aero load providing more grip, just as when the aero load reduces as speed drops you then have to start being more careful.
Suspension and damper modelling results in cars that move around more under you as they should, and this can be both felt via the wheel and seen on the replays. Lift-off oversteer still seems a little less than it should be, however with the cars on hand to try it’s hard to make a final judgement on this one.
The rear stepping out was all present and correct, and caught quite a few out at the start of a number of races I saw when waiting for pods to free up. With even the MX-5 forcing people to take care when launching from a standing start, this is an area I’m very pleased to see move forward, as it’s a strong indicator that the low speed tyre issues have been well resolved.
I finished off the day with the MX-5 around the ‘Ring for a handful of laps and it was great fun, with the car moving around in a very convincing way and very adjustable.
Overall I’m very impressed with the changes PD have made to the physics engine for GTS.
GTPlanet: How did you find loss of grip at either end of the car translated through to the wheel?
Much better than in GT6, with more communication in regard to self-aligning torque when you start to understeer (the light feeling you get from the steering when you exceed the front tyres’ slip angle). However the main indicator of grip is still via the tyre noise, something I would like to see reduced in favour of good steering communication.
GTPlanet: Thoughts on the new Thrustmaster wheel?
It’s an interesting looking wheel and I would have loved to have given it a go (all the pods and rigs were using T300’s), the potential of a mass market direct drive wheel is certainly one that has my attention.
What price point they hit with it will be a big factor and I hope that it has interchangeable rims, as I’m still not sold on the four big chrome bits!
GTPlanet: Did you get a chance to try the game with a controller as well? With the majority of console players limited to the device, how did it compare to the wheel?
I had a quick go with the controller and to be honest I don’t think its had as much work done on it as the wheel has right now. While it responded well enough, the feedback from it was rather muted and as a result it was harder to judge what was going on with the car.
However I’m not really concerned in this area, as excellent controller optimization has always been a strength of PD.
GTPlanet: Favourite car of the event?
Renault RS.01 by a whisker (the two MX-5 variants ran it close). It’s a car that I love using in Project CARS and its re-created well in GTS. It handles very similarly in both titles, and from me that’s a big nod to the improvements PD has made to the physics engine for GTS.
GTPlanet: Finally, what lasting impression did the event have on you?
PD certainly know how to throw an event that’s one thing for sure. However the positive I got from the event was just how open PD were to the community, it’s a positive move and one I hope to see continued.
Oh and most importantly we now know the origin of Jenkins the cat!
Thanks so much for your time!
And a big thank you back to Scaff for taking the time to relate his experiences.
See more articles on GT Sport London Event.
Assetto Corsa should be good lets hope it lives up to the hype not like GT 5, huge disappointment.
I’ve just read ‘What it feels like to play Gran Turismo sport’ and I have to say it did bring a smile to my face to know the game might just be ok. Still would like changeable weather and time of day though.
Project Cars is a decent racing game, but I would have liked it even more if it didn’t feel like I was always driving on icy roads. Hopefully Gran Turismo 7 cars will feel more in touch with the ground and make the tires squeal less. £50 though…it’s a lot a money for the game hope its worth every penny.
“Of course zero driver aids were used for any of these.”
-does this include ABS 0?
What steering lag setting you used, all videos seen are driving with heavily lagged steering as setting standing on 0. (Steering sensitivity, anything above 5 acceptable on GT6, probably same on GTS)
There’s a setting for steering lag?
Steering sensitivity works on wheels as it, 7 as strict control, everything under it makes delay from your input to game reaction, using seven makes driving bit nervous due every movement goes there, it won’t wait even a bit from your wheel shake, 6 works best, but if you’re loose handed driver you might want more “joint play”on your steering rods :)
The best sim racing team in the world TEAM REDLINE have drivers playing project cars. There drivers are total aliens. They reviewed project cars and were complementary of the Physics compared to iRacing. So for people on here who are 2-5 seconds of the potential of the CAR/track to make comments like Pcars is X, Y and Z is not valid and they don’t have the qualifications to demote it.
according to the racers PCars vehicle behaviour is very neutral and natural etc……..
read the link.
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/team-redline.html
Many idiotic journalists say that GT Sport is arcade.
What does make for you a racing game a simulation or arcade?
It’s not all about adjusting the chamber over months the wrong way. They could call gt a simulator in the times of gt1/2/3 maybe 4 but that’s far away from a real driving simulator for myself. It didn’t feel natural for me. It was nice but nothing special. Project C.A.R.S. Feels more to a Sim race even there are some cars feel strange too. Let’s see what they changed and than make our decision.
Great info Scaff. I’ve always felt the large lack of balance changes with throttle in GT6 is a tire model problem. This would be the same reason the GT6 tuning doesn’t generally work right either. The non linearity of real tires in the way the coefficient of friction changes with weight is what causes real life tuning to work the way it does. I don’t think GT6 has this captured very well. There is also the issue of how the GT6 tires massively lose grip from a very small amount of sliding that is way over blown from real life too. But competing in real cars every weekend makes me a bit finicky on physics issues. Sounds like they are moving in the right direction for the future.
Thanks for your impressions, it looks promising despite my hoping for a ground-up rework – this is clearly a (much needed) rebalancing of the individual elements of the existing model. I think the damping situation best illustrates its limitation.
The low-speed tyre model is probably my most anticipated change, along with more physical FFB. Forming as they do two separate “terminations” of the overall model, they ought to work just as well sandwiching a new model.
Lift will probably be the most fun, though…
Unfortunately I found the interview format a bit forced, as Scaff strikes me as a competent enough writer (and identifiable personality, if you will) – is it the names thing? That said GTP has been impressive with its breadth and depth of coverage for a while now, and you should all be congratulated!
Thanks for the review Scaff. It’s good to hear the GT is still around and that you got a chance to test it. Unfortunately, I think PD has permanently lost my business with GT5 & GT6 and their disappointing physics/FFB. I eventually just moved over to PC Sims (mostly AC at this point) and don’t expect to be back (Maybe if I can eventually snag a used PS4 cheaply enough. Maybe.) What is disappointing, however, is that you are comparing the physics of GTSport and PCars. Unfortunately, PCars had an extremely good marketing campaign and fooled many of us into thinking it would be great. But it isn’t. I know we’ve discussed this before, but PCars has moved to the absolute bottom of my list in terms of physics. I do have real-life motorsports experience in classic RR layout Porsches (and many other cars to a more limited extent) and PCars modeling of YB dynamics is simply 100% wrong. It honestly could not be wronger. It feels utterly, completely, and totally unlike driving real RR Porsches of that era/chassis/suspension. AC, on the other hand, models that same car to near perfection. Absolute, gob-smacking perfection. Hearing that GTSport models handling a lot like PCars tell me nothing other than to “run the other way.” (To anyone wanting to know what RR Porsches of the era handle like, just turn down the turbo as far as possible in AC on the YB and then drive it (on one of the non-optimal track surfaces). That’s the way a classic Porsche 911 feels, almost exactly. (You’ll also see how much easier it is than the YB, and by comparison why the turbo Porsches of the era had such a rep for being difficult to master.)
In regard to issues with RR models I would agree that PCars still needs a good degree of work (as did GT6 – issues with a lack of gradual throttle understeer and lift-off oversteer).
However in this case I was using PCars as a comparison in one main area, which was the aero modeling, and in particular one car (the RS.01).
Now as far as the aero model for PCars goes its in my opinion (while not perfect) a great deal better than GT6’s was. As such its a move in the right direction for GTS.
Hello everyone!
Nice read and gives up better hopes… and for the record, I agree to those who say project cars physics is far from real life.. Gran turismo 6 far better, especially in drift area, pc just stopped being real after car start to drift, asseto corsa and other Sims do it and everything else better.. Pc is a good game, but clearly isn’t finished (like all games).. Still with good wheel and right settings it’s great ride overall..
About “Jenkins”: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/jenkins-the-gran-turismo-cat.240737/page-21#post-11382024
Has GTPlanet pressed Kaz on sound, or are we pretending its not important to us?
It’s odd to me that he mentions GT6 having reduced lift off oversteer because to me, it has more than any other sim. Especially when you compare cars like the Lotus Elise, Ruf CTR Yellowbird, and KTM X Bow R to a great sim like Assetto Corsa, in AC lift off oversteer is almost non existent while in GT6 it can be overwhelming if you’re not careful.
His comments about GT Sport are very encouraging though
Try the Ferrari F40 Stage 3 in Assetto and tell me there’s more lift-off in GT6.
@Grippy, compare a fully modded F40 in Gt6, and try telling me it doesn’t have more lift off oversteer in GT6 than the Stage 3
and it’s funny, you had to go to a version of the F40 with much more power just to use for a comparison. That alone should tell you which sim has more lift off oversteer.
As for Scaff commenting that my version of Project Cars “is a very old” I checked for updates and got the message: “Your version is the latest”. And still Project Cars doesn’t handles like anything on four wheels. May be brownian particles movement behave like Project Cars simulation. So stating that GTS has improved over GT6 and is “similar” to Project Cars is clearly an overstatement as Project Cars sucks big time.
I didn’t drove GTS but drive real cars in real world and in GT6, Project Cars on PS4 and RF2 on PC, and can compare all four situations.
Let’s wait for Assetto Corsa.
You might try re-reading what I said, but given the desire to make wildly overblown claims I don’t think it will make a jot of difference.
However feel free to head over to the forums to discuss your claims in more detail.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-unofficial-gt6-vs-project-cars-debate-thread-read-the-rules.328456/page-12#post-10744328
Well… I know I’m Mr Popular with the PCARS crowd, but I have to agree with those that insist it’s not the sim it’s cracked up to be. Before it came out, I watched a lot of YT overviews and read a lot of online discussion from those who had been in on the development of PCARS, and it confused me because it was all over the map. Some like Johnnypenso evangelized it heavily as God’s gift to racing. Some were a lot more measured, and a lot of them warned not to expect perfection. Some just flat out disliked it, said it was Toca but dumber.
So I got it, and it’s a bit of all the above. It’s nice, but I agree with the guy somewhere in the netverse who lumped it in with GT and Forza as a good console sim. And that’s a great triumvirate. As a WIP itself, I think it has a ways to go as GT and Forza do. But even with broken wheel drivers, I can tell that some really good things are going on in the Forza engine now, and it seems like it’s the same with GT Sport. Maybe PCARS II will make everyone happy.
This is why all these games exist, because it gives someone something which pleases them. and in a universe in which people dislike iRacing, Assetto Corsa and RaceRoom too, it seems to be a tough crowd all around. Good thing we have all these choices! ;D
In my opinion, project cars is excellent once you tune the FFB correctly (Jack Spade’s FFB tweaks), but it still has serious issues with simulating any treaded tires which is why the road cars and some old school cars feel a bit floaty and hard to control.
@TD. No sim (and I mean no sim) has ever been 100% and that applies to PCars as much as any other one. However stating that PCars does have an objectively better physics model than GT6 is not the same as a claim that its perfect in every way.
In the same way that claims such as “doesn’t handle like anything on four wheels” are quite clearly both nonsense and designed to start a flame war (which is itself an AUP violation).
I do also love being told how wrong I am about it by someone who has not even tried GTS, but does “drive real cars in the real world”; seemingly unaware that in two odd decades in the motor industry I may have driven a few real cars in the real world (lets make that a lot of real cars on a lot of roads, proving grounds and tracks).
Again with the JP said PCars was God’s gift to racing. I’m going to ask you for a single post in which I said anything even remotely close to that.
Scaff – it’s great that the handling model has improved, but have PD added anything to create better ‘immersion’ in the racing?
I.e. things advancing with Forza/pCARS with weather, audio, head/helmet physics effects, car collisions, race atmosphere, etc?
It’s the area I feel is most underdone still, the excitement of racing rather than the excitement of driving? I mean if GT is happy to just do the driving thing fine, but a few generations of ‘bit better physics and graphics’ only goes so far!
I love to hear that PD is making progress on a decade old game. PD continues to put out a game with free downloads on cars and tracks. Not only do they have a game that entertains so many in all sorts of ways, (complaining, or otherwise) but it continues to get better and pulls so many more into the motor sports world. Ten years ago i never watched even cared to watch Nascar or Indy racing. yeah sure the cars are cool and they go fast, but now i actually pay attention to which ones are in what category.
Thanks PD you have at the least maid a few minor fans of the racing world!!
Why is sound not a bigger subject. It’s been terrible for like a decade and it hasn’t changed. It’s the same dead horse being beaten into different shapes and clarified as an improvement.
Let’s put it this way. I’m not buying a game that doesn’t try anymore. Physics are fun but obviously they don’t even get that completely right. So start working on other stuff and make the game well rounded.
GTS doesn’t paint a good picture of where the GT series is going.
I will never understand how people are ok with the sound in this game,
It has changed, several times. You might need to get your hearing checked, or stop exaggerating things because even GT6 had one update that changed the sound greatly in cockpit view. Let alone the improved sound you hear in GT’s newer cars like the Mazda LM55
@tombrady It still sounds terrible. That’s my whole point. They keep beating the same dead horse. Start new and get it right. Every single other video game gets it right. They just don’t care anymore so I won’t care anymore about the GT series.
I don’t care. If you have an opinion that’s fine, but don’t make idiotic exaggerations like “hasn’t changed in a decade” when that simply isn’t true.
You can voice your opinion without making blatant lies and exaggerations like that.
So physics and car dynamics are coming along nicely, and there are still maybe four more months of development to go. Now the question is, just what sort of game GT Sport is. E3 is going to be quite an exciting show.
Heck, we might all learn about the origins and current lives of of Jenkins, and the monkey and Nessie if Trial Mountain returns! ;D
GT Sport is a competitive online version of a heavily modified GT6.
Well, for many of us that would be enough. For many others, just the tip of the iceberg of what they want. Some are glad to get an eSport focused title, some want GT7. Since no one can agree on what perfection is in a racer, I guess we’ll all just have to get GT Sport and see for ourselves. But I’ve got the anxious myself. ;D
Thanks for this honest info Scaff, I’m excited for GTS even more now.
I think graphics is good ..Jordan please have Kaz upgrade the car sounds to be that more like asseto corsa and pc…if the sound is improve like those sim …it will be epic to get gts…I know they can up the graphics more too…please Jordan..pass the word on to Kaz..
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, regarding Jenkins the Cat!
Joking (not really) aside. It is great to hear how Gran Turismo have progressed, from someone who knows his stuff.
Handles similarly Project Cars ? Is that a joke ? I tried Project Cars again (once again) and Renault RS handles like anything but a car.
Not at all, but then I have the advantage of having used both. However comments like this make me suspect you must have a very odd version of Project Cars.
I wouldn’t worry about it feeling like PCARS. That game is its own unique universe. I’m just glad that at this point, people are this happy with GT6’s progress.
Kaz sounds quite pleased to be getting away from PS3’s Cell and working on a more traditional X86 architecture, how things are progressing nicely and the team makes progress on an almost daily basis. This bodes well for a nicely polished GT Sport and Kaz having an easier time realizing this vision. And for GT7 too.
I can only imagine your horror to read, “It’s [Renault RS.01] a car that I love using in Project CARS and its re-created well in GTS. It handles very similarly in both titles”. Seeing as how you’ve described the street cars in Project Cars as terrible it must be a real dilemma for you.
Nicely done JohnnyP
Thanks. He probably doesn’t realize he’s been burned…lol.
“However the main indicator of grip is still via the tyre noise, something I would like to see reduced in favour of good steering communication.”
Couldn’t agree more, Scaff. Tyre noise is more present in the mix (racing tyres) than GT6, yet it’s sounding as artificial as ever. Tone it down PD! Tiresome…
Great feedback Scaff. Looks like some improvement is already apparent in the physics modeling. Can’t wait for more info closer to release.
“GTPlanet: Favourite car of the event?
Renault RS.01 by a whisker (the two MX-5 variants ran it close). It’s a car that I love using in Project CARS and its re-created well in GTS. [b] It handles very similarly in both titles [/b], and from me that’s a big nod to the improvements PD has made to the physics engine for GTS.”
This should mean something…
So compared to Project Cars & Forza where does it stand on physics?
Well in a recent thread the author says GTS isn’t where pCars or AC is at but he says it is making progress. If GTS isn’t as good as pCars and I prefer Forza just a nudge over pCars for physics, that leaves me concerned about how much GTS needs to grow. That said, FM6 nor pCars would be considered in the same group as a PC sim like rFactor2. AC on PS4 Neo is where the hype should probably be.
There are many people who would put Project Cars in the same category as RF2 and some would put it ahead of RF2.
@Johnny, I don’t know who “many” people are but if those many people are using a G25 strapped to a desk then maybe it is harder to tell the difference between the two. A good setup with an Accuforce or OSW and pCars vs RF2 isn’t close. I really wish it was because the car selection in RF2 sucks. RF2 is related to a version called RFPro that is used by multiple F1 teams. Never heard of any professional race teams using pCars but at least they have “many” people who consider it as good. That has to be worth something. LOL.
Most of the opinions I’ve read from people who slag PCars as a sim (not you, just people) is borne of hatred for SMS and Andy Tudor in particular or, outright fanboyism for their own pet sim. Their hatred rarely resides in any kind of objective analysis of what a simulation really is, and, more often than not, they overlook the glaring weaknesses and ommissions in their own pet sim.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5st0cMb5w1qzvyhvo1_500.gif
Here you go geo1098. Team Redline, without a doubt the fastest team of sim racers in the the world seems to hold PCars in high regard. If you have a more authoritative source feel free to provide it.
Oops…wrong link:
http://www.projectcarsesports.com/team-redline.html
Where did Jenkins come from?
Inquiring minds want to know! ;D
Honestly i’d rather pay $60 for a solid driving experience that focuses on the driving in it’s purest form more then the features. Sure dynamic time/weather is good but what fun is it if the physics is mediocre. sure better sound would be nice but lets face it, most of the time you are inside of the car the engine sound is muffled so it make no difference. I don’t get why people don’t understand that he’s focusing on the driving aspect then the features. in other words, from what i’m seeing, he’s trying to bring back the feeling of what driving was like in the first Gran Turismo. albeit it wasn’t as real but it felt good to drive around the tracks…you felt immersed as you dragged it out on the front straight of Special Stage Route 11 with a car identical to yours. To all the people that are complaining about the development of the game i say this to you: If you want great sounds, Dynamic weather and time, GET IN A REAL CAR AND DRIVE. It wont kill you to pay for gas and drive to the mountains or down the lake/coast.
…Part 2 of my 2 cents/rant coming soon…
So if you had a kazoo for an engine noise or mine craft visuals it wouldn’t matter to you?
…and your point to asking that is…
I feel like you missed the entire point of my rant to isolate two agendas you are desperately trying to push onto people.
You set yourself up for that. What good is dynamic time/weather if the physics is mediocre? Those things are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, it’s entirely different people working on each item. Dismissing engine sounds because you might use cockpit view and it makes no difference isn’t really a valid position in addition to the fact that most people don’t use cockpit view in GT. Get in a real car and drive? Seriously?
Lol I don’t think this guy has ever been in a gutted car or one with a aftermarket exhaust, they are most definitely not “muffled” inside the car, sounds is extremely important and definitely a key component to immersion as well as physics.How can you say “If you want great sounds, Dynamic weather and time, GET IN A REAL CAR AND DRIVE” when the same could be said about wanting better physics to just go and drive a real car?
Each aspect of the game should be treated the same, just like how you want realistic physics there should also be realistic sounds, the game overall should be well rounded, nothing should have a higher priority than the other imo especially for a series as popular as GT.
What a great read!
Is so good to get information from someone who actually know what he is talking about, that really PLAYED the game.
GTS is giving me to emotions right now; I’m happy because the game looks promissing. And sad because i have to buy a new wheel and wife needs to get her driving license(here in Brazil is too expansive, it cost more than a good wheel!).
I hear you.. Over $2K for driving license here in Norway :p
Whoa that’s way too expensive. I only had to pay $30 just to take the driving test to get mine.
Cool, cars from this decade :) what about their sounds ?
What I want to know is the origin of Jenkins the cat
The simulation side is going deeper and better than GT6, that’s good news !
Can I feel the dynamic weather? Can I feel the rush of a powerful exhaust? Can I feel the power of a stage three engine upgrade? Can I feel the satisfaction of endurance races?
Sometimes I just feel like waiting for GT7 because Sport doesn’t seem like a proper experience for full price.
What on earth does any of this mean?
It means that so far I don’t think this game is worth $60 for all of the features it offers.
also another point of that post is that GTS won’t feel anything like a regular GT outside of racing.
Prince reference, I can dig it.
Thanks for your time Scaff, I want to get this day one but removal of dynamic ToD and weather are grating for me, even though the physics is much improved I will lose my fun or late evening drives into the night or my favorite early morning jaunt through the Nordschliefe and experiencing the epicness of sunrise. I feel gutted, will hold out Kaz announcing they’ll implement dynamic weather/ToD in offline arcade later on, I’ll take a resolution reduction just to enjoy those moments again on a better defined physics engine.
Good to see your thoughts formalised into an article @scaff, nice one, and thanks!