Site Needs Reformation! (Grievances)

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McLaren

McLaren

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Hey guys, I want to bring up something I’ve been noticing lately.

Where are the rules, the moderation? I’m starting to see Moderators letting things go that obviously cross the line.
Sorry guys, but the Nude pics, censored or not in the “Post a Pic of Yourself” have crossed this line.
AUP
You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.
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You, the moderators are letting these go. Borderline? I know if a New Member did that, you would have been on him.

Also, many of you stated the Conversation Forum was shut down due to Chit Chat getting outside the Forum. IMO, it didn’t do anything to stop it. Look at a couple threads in the Rumble Strip. They’re beginning the same ordeal….

Or are these going to slide too because they’re sane, and not something “stupid” in the Conv. Forum? Look, I’m not asking you to bring back the Conv. Forum. It’s gone and was Jordan’s decission. But if you’re going to close to try and stop Chit Chat outside it, please try and cleaning up the Chit Chat that was there before.

Honestly, I saw more Chit Chat increase after the closure, many of it, just unneeded.
But again, this isn’t a petition to get it back.
Many members need to chill too. They’re starting to get hot after only a few comments.

In the Convo.’s beginning, we did as it was used for. Slowly, it went downhill, but you mods gave us warnings. We didn’t heed them, it closed. You did your job.

Now, where’s that attitude? You’re letting people make crazy posts. Everything from random Off-Topic to nudity to letting some of our younger members go crazy. You guys were strict when you needed to be during Convo days when rarely any chit chat was outside it. Now, its in a rampage in the Rumble Strip and you guys are joining in!

I noticed that the Convo. Forum did start to decline after this year. But it seems that the low quality posts, and randomness in there, as moved to the Strip. I thought you wanted to stop that, but apparently, you don't care.

You say Chit Chat was getting out of hand during the Conv days? I didn’t see any, honestly. Now, I can see it, and it’s bigger than ever now that the Conv is gone.

Look, I’m not asking anyone to agree with me, or to open the Convo. Forum.
I’m asking you, the mods, the admins, and the members to try and act more mature, to act more sane, and make this site like it was a year ago.

I respect this site because everyone uses proper grammar, has sensible intelligence, good sense of humor, and good morals. But at this rate, I'm sad to see that it's going away. Maybe we all need to just take a good look at the AUP again.

Anyways, that's my thought of this site recently.:indiff:
 
I agree with much of what Mclaren has to say. I think the Rumble Strip in general seems to suffer from very low overall post quality.

I'm not sure what the remedy is or ought to be, but I think the AUP should be enforced uniformly.

+ rep for Mclaren for a worthwhile post.
 
I suppose the Rumble Strip can get out of hand at times, but I don't really think the Forum as a whole is going downhill. I'm probably not the best candidate to make a stand for the whole forum since I spend most of my time in the motosport section but from what I witness while browsing through the various sections, I see many good posts. It is apparent that good thought was put before posting. Sure, there are odd posts here and there, but everyone has a different personality. Take a group of friends for example: some will be well-spoken, some will be short-tempered, others that talk too much, etc. I think the same can be said for our little community.

As nice as it would be to consider every post a quality post, I think its ok to have a little fun, as long as it does not get out of hand. Again, this is only based on my experience.
 
Well, this happens just about every year: As schools start letting out, the number of slowchat posts goes up. By mid- to late-June though, everybody is already sick of being online so much and listening to the banter, so it starts to mellow out, and by the end of June it’s pretty much back to normal.

It’s all cyclic – GTP has various cycles, and after being here for over four years, I’ve learned not to resist them too much (especially cycles like this, where I know they’re going to die down). That said, I’ve handed out more warnings and closed more threads in the past week than I have in the past three months.

That’s just how I feel about slowchatting though. If you see nudity or excess profanity, please report it by all means – is there something that you’ve reported that we’ve overlooked?
 
Sage
Well, this happens just about every year: As schools start letting out, the number of slowchat posts goes up. By mid- to late-June though, everybody is already sick of being online so much and listening to the banter, so it starts to mellow out, and by the end of June it’s pretty much back to normal.

It’s all cyclic – GTP has various cycles, and after being here for over four years, I’ve learned not to resist them too much (especially cycles like this, where I know they’re going to die down). That said, I’ve handed out more warnings and closed more threads in the past week than I have in the past three months.

That’s just how I feel about slowchatting though. If you see nudity or excess profanity, please report it by all means – is there something that you’ve reported that we’ve overlooked?
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Well, I didn't report it because 2 mods had already seen it, and exclaimed its borderline and let it go on.

I don't want to single anyone out, but members posting censored, but still nude pics of themselves must have crossed some line.
 
I will have to agree with McLaren here. A good 6 months ago I remember posting up some funny picture and a few people told me to remove it as it was a bit revealing, but the nude pictures in the "Pics of yourself" thread are worse IMO.

A also remember you Mods saying you will crack down hard on slowchatting after the Convo Forum closes, but lately the "Pics of Yourself" thread and Omnis' coke thread have become slowchatting places. I really don't mean to spoil anyone's fun, but ever so suddenly no one is getting told of for doing so in the last month or two.

I know school is out and there will be more posting because of that, but there's MSN Messenger for that type of chat isn't there?
 
Here are my thoughts:

Personnaly, I think the nude pics were quite innofensive, they made me laugh a little and that's about it. That said, I can understand these are not the kind of pictures you'd want to see here, and if those were pictures of girls, they would have been removed illico and I'm guessing bans would have been issued. It was obviously pushing the limits.

As for slowchatting, it depends a lot where this is happening. Is it that much of a problem within the rumble strip? I mean, how bad can that be if some topics about food or haircut(;)) preferences are wandering a bit off-topic? It's not like they were serious in the first place. If 90% of the posts out there were mindless blabbering and slowchatting, or if that was happening in other more focused sections of the forums, that would certainly be an issue, but I don't think that's the case. Ultimately it boils down to how much the mods, who have to keep an eye on everything that's going on, can tolerate. If you're a forum user, just skip the threads you don't like.

You have to keep a certain balance between strictly enforced rules and keeping this place casual and friendly. In my opinion, this is much better done here than any other forums I've seen so far, including ones that are owned and managed by established companies (see Autoweek forums :crazy:).
 
We do have to tread a fine line between being too harsh and being too soft. Unfortunately, you can't please everybody all of the time. Yes, there are one or two threads that start to resemble the old Convo thread, but in the main, they do get closed sooner or later... The 'Pics of Yourself' thread is a good example. Unless people start posting more on-topic than off-topic, then yes, it will be closed...

As for the 'nude' pictures, we have to apply a modicum of common sense here. The AUP guidelines prohibit the posting of pictures that are deemed by the moderating crew to be offensive. The term nudity really applies to explicit displays of genitalia, which none of these pictures actually have. However, the flip-side of this is that even pictures that do not contain nudity may be considered offensive, depending on the context, which need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Therefore, the best we can hope for (and indeed ask for) is that people who are concerned with particular posts, threads or content use the 'Report' function or otherwise bring it to the attention of a moderator. That moderator will almost certainly seek the advice of atleast one other moderator before taking action, or not as the case may be.
 
Well duh, what do you expect? Slowchatting wouldn't be an issue if *cough* the Conv. Forum would be still 'alive'*cough*.
And about the nude picture someone posted, it was rather funny than disturbing.

But, I do agree with you McLaren ;)
 
Cosmic
Well duh, what do you expect? Slowchatting wouldn't be an issue if *cough* the Conv. Forum would be still 'alive'*cough*.
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Nice try, Cosmic! :sly:

The problem is that we are trying to keep slow-chatting to an absolute minimum, although at the same time we realise that it will always exist to a certain extent (being somewhat inevitable in an internet forum environment anyway)... but providing a purpose-built slow-chatting area (i.e. the convo forum) seems like a strange way of discouraging slow chat to me...
 
Carl.
Here are my thoughts:

Personnaly, I think the nude pics were quite innofensive, they made me laugh a little and that's about it. That said, I can understand these are not the kind of pictures you'd want to see here, and if those were pictures of girls, they would have been removed illico and I'm guessing bans would have been issued. It was obviously pushing the limits.

As for slowchatting, it depends a lot where this is happening. Is it that much of a problem within the rumble strip? I mean, how bad can that be if some topics about food or haircut(;)) preferences are wandering a bit off-topic? It's not like they were serious in the first place. If 90% of the posts out there were mindless blabbering and slowchatting, or if that was happening in other more focused sections of the forums, that would certainly be an issue, but I don't think that's the case. Ultimately it boils down to how much the mods, who have to keep an eye on everything that's going on, can tolerate. If you're a forum user, just skip the threads you don't like.

You have to keep a certain balance between strictly enforced rules and keeping this place casual and friendly. In my opinion, this is much better done here than any other forums I've seen so far, including ones that are owned and managed by established companies (see Autoweek forums :crazy:).
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Maybe, but my thread wasn't really off-topic. It was about a hair style, and suggestions. The replies were all on-topic by stating people's thoughts on them.

The Food, Drink or whatever. Yes, it generally stays on topic, but it's changing way too much, and the thread title's being changed faster than the Conv.

However, I still see your point.👍
 
Touring Mars
As for the 'nude' pictures, we have to apply a modicum of common sense here. The AUP guidelines prohibit the posting of pictures that are deemed by the moderating crew to be offensive. The term nudity really applies to explicit displays of genitalia, which none of these pictures actually have. However, the flip-side of this is that even pictures that do not contain nudity may be considered offensive, depending on the context, which need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
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IMO it's a slippery slope when you try to go on a case-by-case basis. If there's a rule prohibiting something than it ought to be enforced uniformly. Anytime you let something slide because the poster is a long-term member, or what have you, it sends a message to others, particularly newer (and younger) members that that behaviour is tolerated or even encouraged. I get that it's a tough line to walk, and I certainly commend the moderating staff for a job well done, but I don't think it's safe to assume all members operate at the same level of maturity and can distinguish between good fun and serious violations of the rules of the board.
 
I think these kind of distractions are inevitable: we've had GT4 for a year, all the problems have been ironed out, interest is waning, except among the cognoscenti, and GT5 is, what, a year away? Overalll post quality is likely to drop as there is no point of focus for the group as a whole, and at the same time, people's attention will wander. Result: increase in meandering, meaningless threads.
 
Isn't it funny how things change? We'll see how the chatroom changes slowchatting in threads (no, I haven't forgotten about it). As for moderators letting things slide, please report specific incidents to me personally with reference to the questionable activity you may see by one of our staff members. I'm a little disturbed by the nude pictures (which I can't seem to find any reference to in the aforementioned thread), which should not be tolerated under any conditions or circumstances. Unfortunately, you didn't report it, McLaren, which was a big mistake. Regardless of who you think "saw" it, ALWAYS use the report button to notify me and the staff of any AUP violations. Always.
 
I'd put AUP in your sig, such as I did. Not trying to offend any staff members here, but staff needs to do more than just post, but Moderate, that's why they are called Moderators. Sure we've herd of the report button, and I bet we use it, but I'm seeing things slide, Modding seems more layed back, punishments need to be made, not just said this will happen, it needs to happen. It's not just what McLaren said, but I'm also seeing poor post quality out of people (not saying whom) but that can add to what he said. Really, I think Moderation needs to be stricker. As Jordan said, use the report button.
 
Jordan
Isn't it funny how things change? We'll see how the chatroom changes slowchatting in threads (no, I haven't forgotten about it). As for moderators letting things slide, please report specific incidents to me personally with reference to the questionable activity you may see by one of our staff members. I'm a little disturbed by the nude pictures (which I can't seem to find any reference to in the aforementioned thread), which should not be tolerated under any conditions or circumstances. Unfortunately, you didn't report it, McLaren, which was a big mistake. Regardless of who you think "saw" it, ALWAYS use the report button to notify me and the staff of any AUP violations. Always.
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I'll admit, I made the mistake of not reporting, as at the time I saw the mods letting it slip, and I thought TheCracker PMed you about opening up a new thread about it.

Ah well, still my mistake as said. :)
 
I think the wording on the Report screen needs to be changed.

This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.
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I've clicked the Report button several times to report something I've thought in violation of the AUP only to think better of it after reading those instructions.

The capitalised 'only' makes it seem very demanding and I didn't want to bother any mods with something that was indeed acceptable.

I recently PM'd a moderator about the correct use of the Report button to clear up any issues for myself, but that doesn't help other people who want to use it.

Sure, most people probably don't read that text (like they don't read the AUP/TOS when they sign up) but more than once I've gone to report something and backed out. Take the nude pictures for example, when looking at the text there, do they fit? Spam? No. Advertising? No. Harrasment? No. Fighting? No. Rude? Well, maybe.

It seems that GTP is more concerned about spam and advertising than pornography - that would come under 'rude' (which is bracketed almost as a side thought) where as advertising gets two of it's own categories (spam as well).

I just think the wording here needs to be changed. :indiff:
 
Cosmic
Well duh, what do you expect? Slowchatting wouldn't be an issue if *cough* the Conv. Forum would be still 'alive'*cough*.
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If only this were true, it would have saved us from having to listen to a ton of whining about the Conversation Board getting closed.

But it wasn't true.

The CB was started when the Test Forum was closed, in order to provide a dedicated place for all the slowchatting that went on there, in the hope that it wouldn't spill out over onto the main forums.

But it did.

So rather than provide a spam-fest home for people who are not going to return the courtesy by keeping their spamming in one location, we decided it was not working, and closed it. The members who used it were not keeping up their end of the bargain by policing themselves. Also, banned members who were problem children kept returning for the specific purpose of returning to the Conversation Board.

Since it was not serving its intended purpose (keeping the other boards free of slowchatting), and it was creating a number of problems (many rules violations, an attitude of expected non-enforcement, and banned members returning multiple times), was there any reason to put up with the headache of keeping it around?
 
For the record. And because I feel somewhat personally responsible for a large part of this arguement. I'd like to clear a few things up.

I did think about posting that picture. I didn't know if it was appropriate or not, and what the feeling would be towards to. However, another nude picture was posted even before mine, and no one piped up and said 'That's not allowed'.

Also, the picture wasn't full on nudity. If you're going to disallow that, you have to disallow anyone in a Bikini, boardshorts, or any sports that involve little clothing attire. There are other avatars going around that are much more "sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive" then that picture.

Example:
image.php


However, I still think this is all been blown out of proportion. It's just a little picture, everyone had a good laugh (even a Mod or two), and personally I think it's broken the ice, with a lot more people seemingly more comfortable with posting pictures of themselves.
 
ferrari_chris
I think the wording on the Report screen needs to be changed.

I've clicked the Report button several times to report something I've thought in violation of the AUP only to think better of it after reading those instructions.
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I’m going to have to second this. When I was a newer member, it seemed to discourage using the Report button for general AUP violations. :indiff:

The wording definatly talks down to the user, almost seems to make them feel they are doing something wrong by using it.

Maybe: “Use this form to bring any posts that violate the Acceptable Use Policy to the attention of the staff.” …or something. 💡
 
Blake
Maybe: “Use this form to bring any posts that violate the Acceptable Use Policy to the attention of the staff.” …or something. 💡
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Thats definitly better wording.

And I'm also in agreement with the arguments that McLaren originally came up with. Slow talking, pointless threads seem to be increasing slighty. Namely that stupid perfect beverage one. I mean wow, yippee kay yay, who cares? :dunce:
 
Sting
Thats definitly better wording.

And I'm also in agreement with the arguments that McLaren originally came up with. Slow talking, pointless threads seem to be increasing slighty. Namely that stupid perfect beverage one. I mean wow, yippee kay yay, who cares? :dunce:
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I'd agree to an extent - but it's always nice to have a light-hearted thread of this kind. I suspect that the problem with that kind of thread is that most people, including the moderation staff, will read it once and then ignore it because it's not very interesting.

One of the things we rely on is members reporting posts that they think fall outside the AUP. Sometimes they are wrong - but hell, we're all wrong sometimes. We wouldn't think any less of you for having a lower OR higher tolerance than the staff, because we have different tolerances to each other anyway - for instance, I might leave something Duke would lock, but Duke might leave something I'd lock.

On the nudity front, the rule of thumb is the swimming pool rule. If you can see it in a municipal swimming pool without it causing shock, it's probably okay here - but we'd appreciate it if, before posting it, any member who has to think on whether or not it's acceptable PMed an online moderator to ask if it is. An exception to this is porn cropping - cropped "suggestive" images from pr0n pictures, even when they don't show sticky parts, are NOT acceptable and are liable to earn you a strike.

I haven't seen the pictures in question yet, but they don't sound like pr0n to me - but they do sound like it'd be nice for the poster to have asked if they were okay first.


Jordan's point is a good one - in March we were told that we were being too strict, and in May we're told that we're too lax. Of course, both points are valid - because posters have higher and lower tolerances as I mentioned earlier - and I think it's a good thing that members feel as though they CAN tell us these things. But remember, a police force can only see so much crime - they have to rely on the public calling 999/911 as well...
 
Famine
I haven't seen the pictures in question yet, but they don't sound like pr0n to me - but they do sound like it'd be nice for the poster to have asked if they were okay first.
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Here, here, and there was one that was removed here
 
There is an element of grey area here, since some people find 'near-nude' pictures offensive where others clearly do not.

As coincidence would have it, I noticed a perfect example of this just this morning on the way to work.

Yesterday, on returning from the UKGTPV meeting, Specialized and myself got an Underground train at King's Cross, London and noticed an interesting advert for Evian (mineral water)...

I can't find the full image on t'internet, but here is a bit of it... on the right we have a bikini'd lady enjoying a refreshing shower, and in the middle (cropped in this pic) is another bikini'd lass enjoying a bathe on an inflatable lounger in the pool. On the left, we have a young chap enjoying a cool bottle of Evian. Both myself and Specialized noticed that the picture was quite, well, seductive... note that this advert is brand new...

fullZZZZZZPRW060511174810PIC.jpg

and here is the billboard 200 yards from my work... notice that both areas with the scantily clad ladies have been ripped down...

​

Interesting, because this part of London has a very high (and highly conservative) Muslim population. This billboard has been similarly 'censored' several times in the past.

This serves as a good example of how what seems acceptable to some (including a GTP moderator!) is clearly not acceptable to others....

I just thought I'd share this with everyone since it is relevant and a weird coincidence that I'd happen to notice this just today...
 
So glad I didn't open any of those on a school computer...

My opinion... DQuaN's one is amusing, even if he does look like Rocket from Soccer AM. Ashley's one is just weird. Both are borderline, but neither image - though, and I will regret using this phrase, touched up - shows more than you'd accept at the local pool. Neither are "sexually suggestive" either - they don't make me want to do anything apart from close the browser, wipe my memory and do some work instead.
 
You know, TM has a good point. You see ads on streets, bus stops etc all the time where women are in bikinis or even pretty much naked, just hiding whatever to avoid it becoming offensive. I've never thought of it that way before... So I guess they could be acceptable as everyone see them ads on the streets all the time, and they never have been consored or even removed to my knowledge.

I think for me it was just a bit of a shock to see people are capable of posting up pictures like that. I do know almost anything is capable on the 'net, but not on GTP! I guess if them ads are allowed in public, pictures like that can be allowed on GTP too.
 
Casio
Here, here, and there was one that was removed here
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I must second what Famine said, as strange as I think you guys are for posting that, I would certainly have to disagree that we've lost our moral compass and I'd be hard-pressed to log a strike for that. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, but I'm just not. There's a fairly large difference between this and the types of pictures I had in mind when drafting the rules.

As for the post reporting text, I am a bit suprised the default is so user-unfriendly. As I obviously never use the feature, I never read it in detail but it most certainly will be changed immediately.
 
I hadn't seen thoes before now, I certainly wouldn't find them offensive, a bit weird for someone to post sure, but like Famine said, they didn't show more than you'd see at a swimming pool, that is unless you go swimming in a pair of dungarees.

EDIT: Please use this form to report questionable posts to GTPlanet Forum Moderators, or any behavior that you feel may be in violation of our Acceptable Use Policy.

Thats much better worded.
 
live4speed
but like Famine said, they didn't show more than you'd see at a swimming pool
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I think people are upset by the implication of nudity. Take that "I love GTP" sign away and, OMG, WHAT IS THAT??!! Of course, even swim trunks have been known to go AWOL at public swimming pools :sly:

Are those pictures disturbing? Yes. Do they belong on this site? Probably not. Are they offensive? No. Do most people care at all? No.
 
I'm a bit shocked some of you are thinking paper, or yellow dot is the same as a bikini....

So, you'd actually go to a swimming pool, see a man with a yellow dot over his ying-yang or paper, and find it ok?

Wow....BTW, notice that people at swimming pools tend to cover a whole breast, or a much greater region of the lower area.
 

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