Out of the Water and into the Fire: Toyota

  • Thread starter YSSMAN
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anybody notice that Toyota does the exact same thing everybody blasts GM for? un-excitfull sedans everywhere?

and couldnt we stop the talk about hybrids? they are nothing, they accomplish nothing, at least, at this point. what does 5000$, over 5 years, with 3.9% apr. add up to? per month?
(the average person buys a new car every 3 years) - they don't keep 'em for 10
 
LeadSlead#2
anybody notice that Toyota does the exact same thing everybody blasts GM for? un-excitfull sedans everywhere?
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I didn't read through this thread very thouroughly, but I doubt you'll find people who blast GM's boring sedans and not Toyota's boring sedans. Hell, I even blast one of Toyota's exciting sedans, the IS. :P

LeadSlead#2
and couldnt we stop the talk about hybrids? they are nothing, they accomplish nothing, at least, at this point. what does 5000$, over 5 years, with 3.9% apr. add up to?
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Very low emissions and a very long-lasting tank around town if you drive them correctly.

Hybrids have their faults, but being the victims of over-zealous marketing crews and naive consumer hype is not one of them.
 
Wolfe2x7
Very low emissions and a very long-lasting tank around town if you drive them correctly.
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I'll raise you approx 90$ a month.
how much fuel does an average, 30mpg gasoline engine use per month?
approx 100$
savings - Hybrid.
wait...even at 60mpg, the hybrid uses 50$ a month on fuel.
congratulations, you just lost 2400 dollars over your 5-year loan.
hell, give it credit for 75mpg. still 40$ a month = 1800$

as of now, it's only benefit is lower emissions.
it's savings:lol: are ever decreased with needed power increases in larger vehicles, assuming you can't always use a compact for all of your needs.
 
Errh... I'll raise you a small capacity diesel? Oops, you don't get those over there.

Latest highway eco-run test here has put an Accent 1.5 turbodiesel at over 80 mpg US... crazy numbers, yes... but real world driving easily nets 50+ mpg... and it still gets to 60 in 8 seconds.

Of course, it's a $1500-$2000 premium over the gasoline variant (near as we can figure, because they don't sell the gas variant here), but at least it's decently quick.

Oh, yeah... I bash Toyota cars all the time for being boring... but I've never complained about riding one or driving one... seriously nice cars for a daily commute. Just not enough testosterone or style for me.
 
LeadSlead#2
I'll raise you approx 90$ a month.
how much fuel does an average, 30mpg gasoline engine use per month?
approx 100$
savings - Hybrid.
wait...even at 60mpg, the hybrid uses 50$ a month on fuel.
congratulations, you just lost 2400 dollars over your 5-year loan.
hell, give it credit for 75mpg. still 40$ a month = 1800$

as of now, it's only benefit is lower emissions.
it's savings:lol: are ever decreased with needed power increases in larger vehicles, assuming you can't always use a compact for all of your needs.
Click to expand...

Did I accidentally insert a dollar symbol somewhere in my post, or are you yet again missing the true point of hybrids?

Just ask the Japanese -- the Prius was never a "magic money-saving fuel sipper" over there, just a neat little high-tech car that produces very few emissions. Another neat thing about the hybrid system is that, given that it produces enough propulsion to carry its own weight and then some, it can only enhance performance, while also increasing efficiency at the same time. Mitsubishi's hybrid Eclipse prototype exploited this fact.

Stop trying to blame hybrids for being poor economical decisions -- american marketers knew that americans would only care about driving a hybrid if they thought it would save them money, so they took advantage of this in advertising them. Besides, if people knew how to drive hybrids efficiently around here and/or could tolerate the slower speeds that such driving entails, the complaints of low MPG results would be somewhat reduced.
 
yes. I get it wolfe. ENHANCE performance.
whoo-hoo, yippie, it costs a bundle, adds weight, gives a small power increase, produces slightly lower emissions on an already miniscule scale.
sounds like the greatest breakthrough since all-wheel steering.
 
"costs a bundle" -- a premium of $3000-$5000 is not unheard of for engine choices or special options packages on other cars, such as "sports" packages or "luxury" packages. Regardless, hybrids weren't designed to save you money.

"adds weight" -- a 300lbs increase for an average model like the Camry, yes, but this is irrelevant if slow, economical driving is your goal.

"gives a small power increase" -- the 200hp electric motor in the Mitsubishi Eclipse Concept-E hybrid makes more power than most cars.

"produces slightly lower emissions on an already miniscule scale" -- I wouldn't exactly call zero emissions while in electric-only mode "slightly lower."

Sounds like you need to stop thinking about gimmicky "hybrid" systems tacked onto Detriot trucks and SUVs, and start thinking about the hybrid system as a concept.
 
neanderthal
yssman
while you are on point about a lot of things, GMs hybrids have been lambasted by the press. the silverado was described as an expensive power outlet. the vue hybrid is using the same system (large bet driven alternator type thing) and doesnt get teh same fuel economy as a ford escape or toyota ighlander hybrid for that matter.

at this moment, toyota has a massive headstart on everyone. except possibly honda. but honda arent trying to get all out milage it seems.

and toyota sold over 100000 priuses last year. thats one hundred thousand. i thought it was a fringe car. i guess it aint.
but thats volume some manufacturers wish they had in a single car; mitsibishi, isuzu, lincoln (trucks aside) mercury, saab, etc etc etc
Click to expand...

...True, the VUE Green Line is using the BAS system similar to the Hybrid "joke" that was in the GMT800 Silverado, but there is also the new Two-Mode system as well as the ECVT transmission that will be adding to the hybrid-lineup at GM starting later this year.

The AHS2 system ("two-mode" at GM) is the system that was co-developed between GM, Daimler-Chrysler and BMW. The setup that will be used is similar to that of Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive" and Honda's "Integrated Motor Assist" in that it will combine the power of the electric motor with the gas engine to propel the vehicle.

But, that is where the differences end. In "Input-Split Mode," the new setup would allow the two electic motors to propell the vehicle through the first two gears of the 4-speed automatic. Of course, this only occurs at low speeds, and will vary the ammount of power needed between full-electric, gas-electric, and only gas, thus making it a full-hybrid similar to the Prius and Insight, etc.

In "Compound-split mode," the gasoline engine is always in use, but with tools like "Active Fuel Management" it allows the engine to consume less fuel throughtout the four-gear range. In this mode, a combination of electic and gasoline sources can be used to move the vehicle, but not in low-speed settings.

All of this happens because of the new transmission, which acts essentially as a CVT, despite the fact that it is an automatic... Hence the ECVT name. Being that the ECVT is only about as large as the regular 4L60E which is seen in almost every GM product, in theory, nearly every GM model could eventually offer a Hybrid setup as an option, the only problem for engineers becoming where they would put the new electic batteries.

...As of right now, the system will first be seen on the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrids twards the end of 2006 into 2007, and the system will also be featured on the 2007 Dodge Durango Hybrid as well.

There have been plans to use the steup on the Opel Astra diesel, but no offical announcement has been made by GM.
 
Wolfe2x7
"costs a bundle" -- a premium of $3000-$5000 is not unheard of for engine choices or special options packages on other cars, such as "sports" packages or "luxury" packages. Regardless, hybrids weren't designed to save you money.
Click to expand...
clearly.

Wolfe2x7
""adds weight" -- a 300lbs increase for an average model like the Camry, yes, but this is irrelevant if slow, economical driving is your goal.
Click to expand...
actually, it does take more fuel to move more weight, no?

Wolfe2x7
""gives a small power increase" -- the 200hp electric motor in the Mitsubishi Eclipse Concept-E hybrid makes more power than most cars.
Click to expand...
and this is a production car? or something that was deemed unworthy?

Wolfe2x7
""produces slightly lower emissions on an already miniscule scale" -- I wouldn't exactly call zero emissions while in electric-only mode "slightly lower."
Click to expand...
stop trying to make it sound better than it is. honestly, how often is it in electric-only mode? 50%? probly not even. it still pumps 'em out, just not as many. and it's not zero.

Wolfe2x7
"Sounds like you need to stop thinking about gimmicky "hybrid" systems tacked onto Detriot trucks and SUVs, and start thinking about the hybrid system as a concept.
Click to expand...
So I need to think about 300lb motors that cost as much or more than fuel, and don't even get produced?
Actually, they put some hybrid buses in Seattle.
on that, which is easier? fixing 5 million Big supply-draining problems, or, fixing 70 million much smaller problems?

as of now, using E85 would save a hell of a lot more oil than hybrids.
 
LeadSlead#2
actually, it does take more fuel to move more weight, no?
Click to expand...

That's why I added two posts ago that the electric motor must produce enough power to move its own weight and then some. Not an impossible or even slightly difficult feat.

LeadSlead#2
and this is a production car? or something that was deemed unworthy?
Click to expand...

Does that change the fact that it was possible? Mitsubishi isn't in the financial position to make gambles like developing a hybrid sportscar.

You can't say that hybrids will never have powerful electric motors just because they haven't had any yet.

LeadSlead#2
stop trying to make it sound better than it is. honestly, how often is it in electric-only mode? 50%? probly not even. it still pumps 'em out, just not as many. and it's not zero.
Click to expand...

How often it stays in electric-only mode depends on how you drive it, and provided that you aren't blasting the air conditioning and quickly draining the battery, those zero emissions will help greatly in dense stop-and-go traffic. The hybrid's favorite place to be is slow-moving city streets.

LeadSlead#2
as of now, using E85 would save a hell of a lot more oil than hybrids.
Click to expand...

If you're expecting E85 to be the magic solution, you may be disappointed. I don't know how hybrids compare here, but...

Car and Driver
In 2004, the U.S. consumed 100 "quads" (quadrillion BTUs) of energy. Of that, 86 quads were from fossil fuels. And of that, 40 quads were petroleum. About 18 of those petroleum quads were refined into auto gasoline. If we continue to use gasoline at no more than the 2004 rate -- a fair assumption if prices stay high -- the ethanol mandate by 2012 will stretch those 18 quads of gasoline with five percent by volume of ethanol, or 0.6 quad, give or take due to rounding. Remembering that we use 86 quads of fossil fuels, ethanol would displace a mere 0.7 percent of that.

Actually, the picture is not this bright, because fossil fuels are used in the production of ethanol...only 5 to 26 percent of the energy in today's corn-based ethanol is "new"...Even if we accept the most favorable assumption, that 26 percent of its energy is new, that represents only about 0.16 quad...

...If we assume that the ethanol in gasoline in 2012 is used entirely to displace imports, and we again make the most favorable assumption that 26 percent of the energy is renewable, it would reduce imports by about 1.4 percent...

Ethanol proponents might argue here that energy required to manufacture ethanol comes primarily from coal and natural gas, and relatively little from crude oil. There's some truth here. But the numbers are small. Moreover, natural-gas supplies are at least as tight as petroleum supplies.
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^^^ I was just going to point-out the E85 article in C/D, good one Wolfe!

But I think that short piece of the article doesn't do the story justice, as it is somewhat taken out of context.

The conclution I drew from the article was that E85 is only a temporary solution to a growing problem here in the US. Yes, it will reduce fuel prices and minimise the consumption of gasoline (theoretically), but on the opposite side of the token, you are going to be getting gas mileage that is slightly worse, and there isn't any clear data showing that the creation of E85 uses less energy than the creation of gasoline.

As noted, it is a temporary fix. But if GM was to combine E85 in an engine with Active Fuel Management, and possibly the new Two-Mode Hybrid system, it all adds up to a better way to run your car.

My solution is to have more diesel cars come to the US, as they are more efficent with their fuel, and are cheaper to maintain as well. The Europeans have proven how good a Diesel can be, and I find it so strange how Diesel power has not kicked-off a mad craze despite the fact that they offer exactly what Americans love, TORQUE!
 
YSSMAN
^^^ I was just going to point-out the E85 article in C/D, good one Wolfe!

But I think that short piece of the article doesn't do the story justice, as it is somewhat taken out of context.
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Heh, well, it's a lot of typing and peering back and forth between the magazine and monitor screen. I only wanted to make the point that E85 isn't the solution to our problems.

YSSMAN
As noted, it is a temporary fix. But if GM was to combine E85 in an engine with Active Fuel Management, and possibly the new Two-Mode Hybrid system, it all adds up to a better way to run your car.
Click to expand...

Now that sounds like an idea. Most or all of the band-aid technologies coming together to make a bigger impact on our oil dependence.

YSSMAN
My solution is to have more diesel cars come to the US, as they are more efficent with their fuel, and are cheaper to maintain as well. The Europeans have proven how good a Diesel can be, and I find it so strange how Diesel power has not kicked-off a mad craze despite the fact that they offer exactly what Americans love, TORQUE!
Click to expand...

I will always defend the worth of the hybrid, but I'm with you, YSSMAN -- I would much rather take a diesel, myself. ;)
 
there is another problem with hybrids.
in America, anyway.
most of our driving isnt done stoplight to stoplight.

Now, the idea of the diesel hybrid, was a good one.
or perhaps a far better charging system.
or, God forbid, places where you can actually charge the motors.
 
Well, that is a problem that engineers are looking to solve with the Hybrids that will be sold in the United States. Because so much of our driving is done generally for large stretches of space at constant speeds, we are not allowed to make the best of hybrid technology, as it is best used in the city-type driving, that being stoplight-to-stoplight under 45 MPH.

That is why GM, DCX, and BMW have gone with the "two-mode" system that allows not only for Hybrid assistance in all four gears, but in the top-two requires that the gasoline engine use less fuel through Active Fuel Management and a neat trick they call "late intake valve closing" through their new VVT setups to optiminse fuel consumption at any speed.

...Again, Diesel would be the best way for America to go, and I'm so dissapointed that those dumbasses in Washington essentially shut off the US from any kind of diesel import for some time after 2007. Because they offer great fuel economy in the city, and especially on the highway, they would be perfect.

-----

BTW: Did you know that Toyota just had a recall of over One Million (yes, thats is 1,000,000+) cars because of faulty steering systems? Makes me wonder which models they were...
 
YSSMAN
BTW: Did you know that Toyota just had a recall of over One Million (yes, thats is 1,000,000+) cars because of faulty steering systems? Makes me wonder which models they were...
Click to expand...

I heard Prius is recalled in Australia recently because of potential faults in the steering, didn't hear of any others yet.



Found this

"The recall affects Prius NHW20 model vehicles made in Japan between July 2003 and November 2005.

Toyota says there have been no reported incidents of the condition in Australia, but warns owners to be alert to rattling and knocking sounds in the steering"
 
We we can add massive steering failure to the Prius along with the computer crashes that render the vehicle inoperable, even when in motion...

What a safe, and lovely car to drive!
 
YSSMAN
BTW: Did you know that Toyota just had a recall of over One Million (yes, thats is 1,000,000+) cars because of faulty steering systems? Makes me wonder which models they were...
Click to expand...

Top-quality cars, eh?
 
http://www.mercurynews.com
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/14705361.htm

Toyota Motor said Tuesday that it planned to begin a global voluntary recall of nearly 320,000 of its hot-selling Prius gasoline-electric hybrid sedans to repair a potentially faulty steering system component.

...

The recall also covers eight other Toyota models -- none sold in the United States -- that use the same steering system. In all, Toyota is recalling 986,000 vehicles, more than half of them in its home market, the company said in a statement issued in Japan.

The Prius recall does not involve any of the car's propulsion system components but a potentially understrength piece of the steering-shaft assembly that could loosen or crack.

Toyota said no U.S. owners had complained about the fault, discovered in vehicles sold in Japan that use the same steering component.

The steering part can fail if the steering wheel is turned forcefully to the locked position at low speed or if a front tire strikes a curb or other solid obstacle while the car is in motion.
Click to expand...

Sure, it's going to cost Toyota a bit of money, but it's more of a preventative safety repair; you naysayers act as if it's the second coming of the Ford Pinto.
 
...Of course, as we are (or atleast some of us) are proud Americans who are looking to defend the dominance of the companies that we created.
 
Pupik
Sure, it's going to cost Toyota a bit of money, but it's more of a preventative safety repair; you naysayers act as if it's the second coming of the Ford Pinto.
Click to expand...

Good point, its not like its unusual for a car to have a recall or two, especially something technologically different and complicated like a hybrid.
 
GT4_Rule
But its a big news when it comes from Toyota, a previously bullet-proof company.
Click to expand...

Big news? Not really, 'bullet proof' cars have recalls just the same, most times they aren't actually breaking down, they just have a potential problem that the manufacturer fixes before it may become a real one, so the car remains 'bullet proof', you would be surprised that many recalls are not made public and they are fixed when people bring the cars in for service and the customer never even knows about it.
 
YSSMAN
...Of course, as we are (or atleast some of us) are proud Americans who are looking to defend the dominance of the companies that we created.
Click to expand...
Why should the origins of a manufacturers matter that much? Major players in the automotive industry are now publicly traded companies, with shareholders coming from all around the world. Their managemend, engineers and designers are hand-picked worldwide, and the same applies for their plant locations. What is called an "American" company has platforms,engines or whole cars coming from Japan, Korea, Sweden, UK, Germany... So I don't see the need to start dissing Honda or Toyota because they've been going strong for several years while others are in trouble. The latest reports show strong sales for both of them, and I don't think either of them will take a plunge in the near future.

The repution they've build in the last 20 years or so plays a great part in this, while some American divisions are still paying the price for years of (sometimes gross) negligence, even if they've recently upped their game. I think in both case it was deserved.
 
Nissan had several recalls on 350Z's...including the brakes, which they wouldnt warrant if you had aftermarket wheels...but they would on stock wheels...? now how, could aftermarket wheels cause problems, if you're already saying the stock wheeled cars have this problem?
just wanted to bitch
 
All I'm saying is the steering shaft issue is a problem if someone hits a curb, or forcefully turns the wheel past the end of its lock. Many cars will have something break if used for purpose other than it was intended. Hitting a curb will damage steering knuckles and suspension parts (such as control arms) on anything without enough ground clearance.

The pace of today's technology has created a lot of software and hardware that is usually much more "v0.9" rather than v1.0, since everyone wants to be first to sell a competitive market. Every new product that hits the market might as well have Beta stamped on it; some bugs and updates get worked out later.

If anyone wants to point out that the '06 Lexus IS and GS models have seatbelt issues, the issue is not with the safety or fitness of the belt or buckle. The retracting mechanism has caused a nuisance to drivers, as they might have to pull on the belt 3-4 times to unjam it from the retractor to buckle up. This is why there's a replacement on 20,000 of these cars. I work at the largest dealer, and not one person told me it was much of a bother to them, if it even occured.
 
Carl.
Why should the origins of a manufacturers matter that much? Major players in the automotive industry are now publicly traded companies, with shareholders coming from all around the world. Their managemend, engineers and designers are hand-picked worldwide, and the same applies for their plant locations. What is called an "American" company has platforms,engines or whole cars coming from Japan, Korea, Sweden, UK, Germany... So I don't see the need to start dissing Honda or Toyota because they've been going strong for several years while others are in trouble. The latest reports show strong sales for both of them, and I don't think either of them will take a plunge in the near future.

The repution they've build in the last 20 years or so plays a great part in this, while some American divisions are still paying the price for years of (sometimes gross) negligence, even if they've recently upped their game. I think in both case it was deserved.
Click to expand...

...And I completely see your point, but given the nature of most folks to hate anything that is built by GM, Ford, or the Chrysler arm of DCX, someone has to give the cars a fighting chance. The mainstream media most certainly isnt, and thankfully American automotive magazines have gotten on the American car wagon, but that really is just about it.

If I can remember the figures correctly, in my home state of Michigan, more than 10% of the workforce in the entire state works for either GM, Ford, or DCX in some way. Therefore, why would I not want to see the companies that have employed my family members since the 1960s fail?

Toyota and Honda are where they are because they have built superior products in the past, and the American car companies did not. Guess what, it is their (American folks) fault that they are failing. But, the tables have turned for GM and others, and they are back to where they need to be to become compeditive to the best that Japan and Germany have to offer.

...But does CNN or Forbes Magazine say anything about that? Nope, they are too focused on the fact that Toyotas get better gas mileage than anybody else, and that Honda is rated better than GM in quality standings, despite the fact that Buick and Cadillac both beat Honda and Chevrolet is just a spot or two behind the "Big H."
 
YSSMAN
...But does CNN or Forbes Magazine say anything about that? Nope, they are too focused on the fact that Toyotas get better gas mileage than anybody else, and that Honda is rated better than GM in quality standings, despite the fact that Buick and Cadillac both beat Honda and Chevrolet is just a spot or two behind the "Big H."
Click to expand...

Some people actually read CNN or Forbes when shopping for a car? :lol: I think most car media, depites showing bias at times, are just giving credit where it's due, and aren't necessarily in love with Japanese manufacturers. I remember reading hundred times how much most of Toyota's lineup is uninspiring and bland, just about everywhere. A lot of buyers just don't care about that, though.

I'm glad we're not getting utter crap such as a Grand Am, a Sunfire or a Taurus from Detroit / Dearborn anymore. But I still wouldn't consider a G6 at the same level as a Mazda6 or an Accord yet, or a Cobalt at the same level of a Mazda3 or a Civic. In many cases they're still just getting there.

As for cheering for the local team, the closest thing I can relate to is Bombardier, which started over 60 years ago with one guy building the first snowmobile in his garage, not far from where I live. Now it's the world's 3rd airplane manufacturer behind Boeing and Airbus, and it's #2 in railway rolling stock, as well as being a major recreative vehicule manufacturer. It became a global corporation though, and while they still provide a lot of local jobs, they will only consider opening large plants here instead of Mexico if they're handed tax breaks and subsidies on a plate (same goes for car manufacturers, and many others). It makes me laugh when artists use that company as an example to cheer us up and boost nationalism at the St-Jean Baptiste, our national day.
 

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