Out of the Water and into the Fire: Toyota

[daggoth]

The Ford Focus lead the ADAC survey for quite some time, and the Ford Focus/Mondeo is a lot nicer built than a Toyota Corolla/Avensis.
You are ruining your own opinions, in one hand Toyota quality is de-creasing, on the other hand, I have had bad luck with the Yaris? Er, no, if I should believe what you first said, there's a reason for the Yaris being bad quality, quality has gone down.

I was speaking of the brands in general not specific models.
Quality has gone down but it is still better than other European car makers.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

In North America, we don't get the same Focus or the Mondeo as you do in Europe, and we neither get the same Corolla or the Avensis.

And when the Yaris Hactchback came out (a few years after you, in Canada, then USA), the only vehicules in the same size and category over here were ...the Hyundai Accent and the Chevy Aveo / Suzuki "Swift", which were both a dated, rebadged Daewoo. No Renault, Peugeot, Fiat, Seat, Fiesta, Lupo, Micra, (Proper) Swift, etc...



As I said, I'm also comparing it to other high mileage cars (rentals, courtesy or others) I've driven. A few of them were POS or beaters, but none of them left me with such a bad impression. Can you honestly say that a 2003 Grand Am was anywhere near the competition in terms of quality, materials, chassis and refinement? It was long due for a new model, as were the Sunfire / Cavalier.

Far as I know, they were a sizable amount cheaper.
Like I said, never drove or rode in one, don't know.
Liked the post-2000 Grand Prixs I rode in, I assumed Grand-Ams were similar, guess I was wrong.
Sunfire's and cavaliers arent that bad, I've never seen anything out of them that exemplifys the remarks people on this website make about them.
And I've also never heard people talk about them like they do on this site, but this site can seem, at times, anti-American, and anti-Japanese (unless it comes down to US vs. Japanese).
One of my favorite GTPlanet moments was when BX claimed the Cobalt is definetly NOT a new Cavalier... even though it's on it's 4th platform, aka DELTA... oh well, somebody else said....

 

[YSSMAN]

As I said, I'm also comparing it to other high mileage cars (rentals, courtesy or others) I've driven. A few of them were POS or beaters, but none of them left me with such a bad impression. Can you honestly say that a 2003 Grand Am was anywhere near the competition in terms of quality, materials, chassis and refinement? It was long due for a new model, as were the Sunfire / Cavalier.

Well, I wouldn't have completely counted the Grand Am out in comparison to other cars in it's class (Camry, Accord, Altima), it was far from the top in terms of desirability. Generally speaking, the cars were quite reliable, as they had been built for such a long time, and the mechanical parts driving the car forward did plenty to hold up as well.

Of course the car needed a complete overhaul by 1996-ish, but they wanted to test the waters with the European-derrived Malibu before fully comitting themselves to the new Epsilon architecture.

One of my favorite GTPlanet moments was when BX claimed the Cobalt is definetly NOT a new Cavalier... even though it's on it's 4th platform, aka DELTA... oh well, somebody else said....

BX was right, as the Cobalt is NOT a new Cavalier. Yes, the Cobalt was developed to replace the Cavalier, but that does not make them the SAME car.

...By your train of thought, that would make the Avalon a Cressida, the Corrado a Scirocco, the Passat a Quantum, etc.

The Delta platform of which the Cobalt/G5/Persuit are all based uppon was co-developed between GM North America and GM Europe for used on entry-level economy cars that would be the successors to the Cavalier/Sunfire and the Astra as well.

The old J-Body is dead, and it has nothing to do with the new Delta Platform. No more J200, Cimarron, Firenza, Skyhawk, Cavalier (US, UK, JP), 2000, Sunbird, Sunfire, Ascona (EU), Aska (JP), Camira(AUS), Monza(BRZ), Espero (SKOR)....

 

[LeadSlead#2]

by your train of thought, the c1, c2, c3, c4, c5, & c6 Corvettes are different cars as well then.
Cobalt - Cavalier with new chassis, and new name.
same engine 2.2 ecotec
same trans, isuzu and/or getrag 5-sp
the 95 Cavaliers had a different chassis than the 94's, but was it a different car? it was the new Cavalier and they even started using different engine's, at least
BX was not right, and neither are you.
Same car, revised for '05, along with a naming gimmick that people are clearly falling for

You do, at least recognize that this "different car" has a "delta" chassis, right?
What is "Delta"? 4.
How many chassis revisions did the Cavalier have? 3.
coincidentally the very car's chassis name that replaced it, means 4, or 4th. odd, no?

 

[a6m5]

Focus and Fusion replacing Escort and Taurus. To me, that's different cars replacing the old ones.

Cobalt and G6 replacing Cavalier and Grand Am. Again, to me, it looks like a new models with a name change. Of course, that doesn't mean I take the improvements made, lightly. I haven't driven neither Cobalt or G6, but just from what I've read and seen, I can tell that they are much, much better than the models they replaced.

 

[YSSMAN]

Of course C1-C6 Corvettes are all different, as generation after generation they went through not only a change of chassis, engine, styling, etc. Of course, they were still called the Corvette, but the chassis title remains the Y-Body to this day.

The J-Body and the Delta chassis are completely different. No iffs ands or butts. The J-Body dates back to the 1970s, was full of flex issues, and was horribly out of date by the time that they finially killed it a few years back. Those 3 redesigns you speak of did nothing to alter the chassis underneath, the major difference was an updated suspension here or there, new engines and transmissions, and progessively updated styling.

...Again, the Cobalt is NOT a Cavalier. The Cobalt is a REPLACEMENT or the SUCCESSOR to the Cavalier, but it is most certainly NOT one.

And if the Engines and transmissions are some of the deciding factors as to what is a Cavalier and what isnt, I suppose that would make the G6 and Malibu Cavaliers as well since they are using the same 2.2L ECOTEC (which has been used not only in the US, but around the entire world) and 4-speed automatic.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Hey, that means most of the GM's lineup is related to Cavalier . DTS uses the 4-speed auto, Olds used it, Buick uses it, Pontiac uses it, and of course, Chevy uses it. But that doesn't make any logical sense. Therefore sharing some parts does not mean that they're the same car.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

yeah, except they're BIGGER. that's a slight diff.
If the Cobalt was called Cavalier, it'd be the same car.
Ok, corvettes all had the same chassis name.
how about Firebirds and Camaros? happy now? they got different chassis, but remained the same. unless the Firebird was a replacement model for the Firebird?
In 1995, when Sunbird's were vanishing, and Sunfires appeared, was that really a different car? hell, those even used the same chassis.
I never once said the Cobalt is the same as a cavalier. I said it's the new cavalier. so far you've simply said it's different. why yes, it is.
The new corvette is different the the last, too.

So maybe this will make it easier, if I spell it out, more directly
The Chevy Cobalt, is exactly what the Cavalier would be, had they kept the Cavalier name in use.
Instead, rather, they decided to change the name, not because it would be any different, but because Cavaliers didnt have a sporty image, and that is exactly what they wanted, and they got it.
The G6, is exactly what the Grand-Am would be, had they kept that name, as well.
And if they are what they would be, just with a different name, than they are, in fact, the new, Tada!

 

[YSSMAN]

Seems like you've got it then. You made it sound as though the Cavalier and Cobalt were the same car, and although they are indeed related in terms of what positions in the company they held, they only shared a few bits and pieces here and there. Yes, the Cobalt is a replacement, not the same thing.

 

[Pupik]

Careful guys, we're going to have to call this the NUMMI thread if it keeps going off-topic.