- 1,003
you'd take a Camry over a Supercharged Grand-Am GTP? (preferably one with the ram-air hood) have fun.Pupik
Out of the Water and into the Fire: Toyota
- Thread starter YSSMAN
- 129 comments
- 3,843 views
- 23,800
- Philippines
I'd take an Altima over either (build quality niggles and all) just for the engine... 
As ashamed as I am to admit it, I actually enjoyed the one time I've ridden in a new Camry... down a provincial highway at around 80 miles an hour in perfect comfort and silence. Of course, you can't see the crappy wood and plastic trim from the back seat.
Still, it's sad to see Toyota go down that cheapish "look, let's not offend anybody, let's give them the crappiest and corniest interiors and exteriors in the universe" road that Nissan went down long ago.
As ashamed as I am to admit it, I actually enjoyed the one time I've ridden in a new Camry... down a provincial highway at around 80 miles an hour in perfect comfort and silence. Of course, you can't see the crappy wood and plastic trim from the back seat.
Still, it's sad to see Toyota go down that cheapish "look, let's not offend anybody, let's give them the crappiest and corniest interiors and exteriors in the universe" road that Nissan went down long ago.
- 1,003
every interior is disliked by somebody.
Anyway, it is sad that only American companys get attacked in America. very sad.
I never heard of any of these stories, and I would've loved to hear the one about over-zealous power ratings.
Anyway, it is sad that only American companys get attacked in America. very sad.
I never heard of any of these stories, and I would've loved to hear the one about over-zealous power ratings.
- 1,397
i believe the "inflated" horsepower figures were because teh SAE was not very specific about how an engine should be configured to get its horsepower rating.
so, some enterprising manufacturers simply tested thier cars with no alternator or power steering attached (less rotational drag,) less oil, thinner viscosity oil, lower restriction or no air cleaner, etc.
the regulations did not state that the engine had to be configured exactly as it would be in teh car. that has since been changed.
so, some enterprising manufacturers simply tested thier cars with no alternator or power steering attached (less rotational drag,) less oil, thinner viscosity oil, lower restriction or no air cleaner, etc.
the regulations did not state that the engine had to be configured exactly as it would be in teh car. that has since been changed.
- 1,003
neanderthal
Are you suggesting Toyota thought that was standard practice? don't forget the A/C.... while they're at it, concentrate an alternativly powered A/C vent directly into the intake opening, too!
- 23,800
- Philippines
Would be even better if the SAE specified showroom stock wheels, tires, fuel, etcetera, and all testing done on an off-the-line model at a commercial dyno.
BHP, bah... all cars should be rated in WHP.
Fun fact. Despite all indications to the contrary... Toyota is still claiming 145 hp for their 1.8 (non-sport) VVTi here. Funny, as we're getting it in the same emissions trim as everyone else (it's 130hp in the rest of Asia... they're still not quoting the revised 120+ SAE rating for these markets).
BHP, bah... all cars should be rated in WHP.
Fun fact. Despite all indications to the contrary... Toyota is still claiming 145 hp for their 1.8 (non-sport) VVTi here. Funny, as we're getting it in the same emissions trim as everyone else (it's 130hp in the rest of Asia... they're still not quoting the revised 120+ SAE rating for these markets).
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I thought it was funny that Toyota was losing anywhere from 5 to 20 BHP on some models, while for the most part, GM gained between 5 and 10 BHP across the board. Not every engine has been re-tested as of yet on the SAE-Certified system, and not every automaker will do it either. I herd a story that Honda wouldnt do it because they didnt want their cars to lose any horsepower ratings (could it be really bad for them?)...
- 23,800
- Philippines
It could be. One of the reasons people put up with the paucity of torque from Hondas is that hit of horsepower on top is supposed to make up for it.
Not that Hondas are dog slow anyway (okay, pony-slow, maybe, to you V8 petrolheads ) but any loss of power, whether real or perceived, is bound to hurt sales.
Not that Hondas are dog slow anyway (okay, pony-slow, maybe, to you V8 petrolheads
) but any loss of power, whether real or perceived, is bound to hurt sales.- 1,003
I still don't get why it's so hard to just make the power
- 23,800
- Philippines
Emissions, emissions, emissions. Many of the new "ultra-efficient" motors, for example, only get the same mileage an old 1.4 Civic did... but they use twice as much technology... currently, in full emissions trim, an NA SR20DE gets 135hp... and it's still not Cali-legal, whereas it used to put out 145+ in non-US trim and 140 in 50-state trim.
Heck, even US engines went through a period where they were getting much less than 200 hp from some huge blocks.
Next time someone rags on a big V8 for having "just" 300hp or whatever... remind them that 300hp, whether by boost or by big block, still takes a lot of money and engineering... and it's even more amazing if that 300hp is SAE certified and California legal.
Heck, even US engines went through a period where they were getting much less than 200 hp from some huge blocks.
Next time someone rags on a big V8 for having "just" 300hp or whatever... remind them that 300hp, whether by boost or by big block, still takes a lot of money and engineering... and it's even more amazing if that 300hp is SAE certified and California legal.
Pink_the_Floyd
(Banned)
- 4,041
No problems here,
The new Avensis has been the best sellingn stationwagen in the past three and the Corolla was the top selling car in Norway for the past months.
The new Rav4 is seen as the best little SUV you can possibly have in Norway as it outguns cars like the Honda CR-V, Nissan X-Trail, etc.
Lexus is number 1 in America and Toyota will be the biggest car manufacturer in the next year if they'll continue selling as many cars like the past months.
And still they have the most strong and reliable engines in the world, OK, they aren't the most comportable and fastest in the world, who cares!
Toyota has proven years ago that a good engine comes first over speed and looks.
Pink,
The new Avensis has been the best sellingn stationwagen in the past three and the Corolla was the top selling car in Norway for the past months.
The new Rav4 is seen as the best little SUV you can possibly have in Norway as it outguns cars like the Honda CR-V, Nissan X-Trail, etc.
Lexus is number 1 in America and Toyota will be the biggest car manufacturer in the next year if they'll continue selling as many cars like the past months.
And still they have the most strong and reliable engines in the world, OK, they aren't the most comportable and fastest in the world, who cares!
Toyota has proven years ago that a good engine comes first over speed and looks.
Pink,
- 159
if only everyone would pay a little more attention to the Hybrid Bussiness, like Toyota is doing.............
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
@ PINK: Your Sir, have a very different Toyota than what we have in the United States. Model generations roll over more often, there is more competition in the respective categories, and Toyota is still gunning for top-honors in Europe, no matter what country.
In the United States, Toyota has gotten sloppy... A victim of their own success I suppose. Build quality has gone down in the interior and exterior of the car (same can be said for Honda as well), engine reliability (although still great) has floundered a titch, but sales do remain strong.
Toyota is still looking at atleast another two years to top General Motors here in the United States as the #1 company, and there are a lot of changes that are going to happen by then. Were going to have cars like the Aura, Outlook, Enclave, Acadia, Zeta-based sedans and coupes, next-gen Epsilon Malibu and G6, GMT900 Silverado and Sierra, new hybrids across the board, etc, etc. Toyota is going to need to get tough with their cars as well, as GM is not only looking to out-price the cars, but also include more standard features for less money alike the Hyundais that we all know and love.
...On the engines for a moment: It all greatly depends on what engine we would be discussing here. Keep in mind that GM still runs two of the most reliable engine designs of the past couple decades, the Chevrolet small-block V8, and the old Buick (I think it came from Buick) 3.8L V6. Both of the engines keep going, and going, and I have yet to see one completely crap-out like I have so many different Toyota, Ford, Nissan, VW, etc engines that have been available in the past 20 or 30 years.
Even cross-comparing imports from a decade ago, Toyota had plenty of problems then. Our '95 Camry with the 5S-FE has had quite a few more problems than my '96 Jetta with the 2.0L 8V... Cross compared again to the GM 4300 V6 and 5300 V8s over the past few years, well, Germany and America wins out as well.
...People have different expieriences with cars all around the world. Just because things are hunky-dorrie in Norway doesn't mean they are the same in the United States.
@NISMO: At the most, Hybrids are only a temporary "fix" to the MPG "problem," and although Toyota was the first to do it on a grand scale, GM is looking to outdo them by offering a wide-range of cheap and effective hybrids by 2010. The same system used by GM will also appear on vehicles from DCX and BMW as well, but there have not been any set dates as to when those hybrid systems would appear on their vehicles as well.
Being that Hybrids are so new, so few people actually know how to get the best fuel mileage out of them, they almost arent even worth the money. Added to that, the money savings in fuel is almost nill, given the higher price you pay for a Prius over a similar-sized Corolla, etc. I belive the statistics were that you would have to drive an average of 12,000 miles for more than 10 years before the cost between a similarly equipped Corolla and a Prius would even out... But by then you may be looking at replacing the batteries, electic motors, etc. in which 10 or more years down the road, won't be covered by warranty any longer.
Be that as it is, Hybrids only are helpful to people who live in the cities, not the suburbs or in the farmlands of America. Hybrids are most effective when speeds stay below 40 or so MPH, but outside of town, speeds regularly are above 50 MPH, and thus the cars are regulated to running just the four-cylinder engine.
Given that situation, surprise, surprise, GM figured out years ago that cylinder-deactivation was the way to go, and now it is poping up al over the place. Chrysler has it, Honda has it, Mercedes has it, and of course, GM as well... But where is Toyota? Oh yeah, I forgot, they are too caught-up in the Hybrid mess to really do anything else.
...I suggest you, NISMO (not to pick on only you), read up on Hybrids just a bit more. They arent the miracle cars we all seem to think they are, and you most certainly arent going to hear that from CNN or ABC... Car and Driver regularly talks about the Hybrid situation, and I am most-certain that there are plenty of books available as well at the local library.
...Happy reading!
In the United States, Toyota has gotten sloppy... A victim of their own success I suppose. Build quality has gone down in the interior and exterior of the car (same can be said for Honda as well), engine reliability (although still great) has floundered a titch, but sales do remain strong.
Toyota is still looking at atleast another two years to top General Motors here in the United States as the #1 company, and there are a lot of changes that are going to happen by then. Were going to have cars like the Aura, Outlook, Enclave, Acadia, Zeta-based sedans and coupes, next-gen Epsilon Malibu and G6, GMT900 Silverado and Sierra, new hybrids across the board, etc, etc. Toyota is going to need to get tough with their cars as well, as GM is not only looking to out-price the cars, but also include more standard features for less money alike the Hyundais that we all know and love.
...On the engines for a moment: It all greatly depends on what engine we would be discussing here. Keep in mind that GM still runs two of the most reliable engine designs of the past couple decades, the Chevrolet small-block V8, and the old Buick (I think it came from Buick) 3.8L V6. Both of the engines keep going, and going, and I have yet to see one completely crap-out like I have so many different Toyota, Ford, Nissan, VW, etc engines that have been available in the past 20 or 30 years.
Even cross-comparing imports from a decade ago, Toyota had plenty of problems then. Our '95 Camry with the 5S-FE has had quite a few more problems than my '96 Jetta with the 2.0L 8V... Cross compared again to the GM 4300 V6 and 5300 V8s over the past few years, well, Germany and America wins out as well.
...People have different expieriences with cars all around the world. Just because things are hunky-dorrie in Norway doesn't mean they are the same in the United States.
@NISMO: At the most, Hybrids are only a temporary "fix" to the MPG "problem," and although Toyota was the first to do it on a grand scale, GM is looking to outdo them by offering a wide-range of cheap and effective hybrids by 2010. The same system used by GM will also appear on vehicles from DCX and BMW as well, but there have not been any set dates as to when those hybrid systems would appear on their vehicles as well.
Being that Hybrids are so new, so few people actually know how to get the best fuel mileage out of them, they almost arent even worth the money. Added to that, the money savings in fuel is almost nill, given the higher price you pay for a Prius over a similar-sized Corolla, etc. I belive the statistics were that you would have to drive an average of 12,000 miles for more than 10 years before the cost between a similarly equipped Corolla and a Prius would even out... But by then you may be looking at replacing the batteries, electic motors, etc. in which 10 or more years down the road, won't be covered by warranty any longer.
Be that as it is, Hybrids only are helpful to people who live in the cities, not the suburbs or in the farmlands of America. Hybrids are most effective when speeds stay below 40 or so MPH, but outside of town, speeds regularly are above 50 MPH, and thus the cars are regulated to running just the four-cylinder engine.
Given that situation, surprise, surprise, GM figured out years ago that cylinder-deactivation was the way to go, and now it is poping up al over the place. Chrysler has it, Honda has it, Mercedes has it, and of course, GM as well... But where is Toyota? Oh yeah, I forgot, they are too caught-up in the Hybrid mess to really do anything else.
...I suggest you, NISMO (not to pick on only you), read up on Hybrids just a bit more. They arent the miracle cars we all seem to think they are, and you most certainly arent going to hear that from CNN or ABC... Car and Driver regularly talks about the Hybrid situation, and I am most-certain that there are plenty of books available as well at the local library.
...Happy reading!
Poverty
(Banned)
- 3,567
I dont rate hybrids. Audi has been messing about with them for decades now but only has just started making them widely available with the Q7 in the following months as its the latest car fashion.
BMW said the reason why theey dont have hyrbids is because they dont belive that its all that other manufacturers put it out to be. Oh and also for the fact that its very un-BMW like.
BMW said the reason why theey dont have hyrbids is because they dont belive that its all that other manufacturers put it out to be. Oh and also for the fact that its very un-BMW like.
- 159
ok let's take all the cars from the citizens of the united states and give them a VW Golf 1.4, bet the oil reserves are going to last 10 years longer
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
...I'm sure VW would be happy to, but they would have to sell the 1.4 here first. The problem is, hybrids are too expensive, and offer very few benifits to do anything for the long-run. Car and Driver just did a big write-up on the VW Golf GT with the 1.4L TSI, and from what they say, it could be the "replacement" for the TDI if VW cannot get the engine cleaned up enough to meet US emissions standards.
- 26,628
- OREGON
- a6m5zero
I applaud Toyota for making the Hybrid technology more accessible, but I'm not very big on it either. Corolla is rated at 30+ mpg around town, and just over 40 on highway. I think I'd rather buy a Corolla for thousands of dollar less and still save almost as much as with a Hybrid car. And as YSSMAN noted, it's so much cheaper on the long run.
P.S. With the high gas prices, cars like Corolla, Yaris and Fit's been selling like crazy. But unfortunately(and ironically), I guess the Prius sales have slowed down.
P.S. With the high gas prices, cars like Corolla, Yaris and Fit's been selling like crazy. But unfortunately(and ironically), I guess the Prius sales have slowed down.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
I was watching Top Gear on You Tube today, and I think I found the solution to our problem: The VW Lupo 1.4 TDI, in which Clarkson was able to manage 75 MPG in a car that costs less than £12,000 (or $22,390). Although it is indeed a smaller car, the additional savings not only on the price and with the performance and MPG... It is simply phenominal!
I move that VW import the Lupo, excuse me, Fox to the US market immediately! If they can sell it for less than the Rabbit (aka Golf), otherwise less than $15,000 USD, they would probably sell quite a few. Maybe not on size, but on fuel economy alone. It surely would make it the most fuel-efficent car sold in the United States, hell, even if they sold it with the gasoline 1.4L, it would still top most cars on the highway as well.
I move that VW import the Lupo, excuse me, Fox to the US market immediately! If they can sell it for less than the Rabbit (aka Golf), otherwise less than $15,000 USD, they would probably sell quite a few. Maybe not on size, but on fuel economy alone. It surely would make it the most fuel-efficent car sold in the United States, hell, even if they sold it with the gasoline 1.4L, it would still top most cars on the highway as well.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
...I don't see why a Lupo couldn't handle four folks and a few things...
VW would probably bring the Polo here before the Fox (Lupo replacement), but to be compeltely honest, I really can't say for certain if VW would like to bring either here. They would undercut the Golf, of which will allready be discounted to $14,995 when it goes on sale this summer, which is right around the starting price of the Honda Fit Sport.
... I'd imagine that VW has thought about it, and I'm sure they are watching what happens with the Fit, Yaris, Versa, etc.
VW would probably bring the Polo here before the Fox (Lupo replacement), but to be compeltely honest, I really can't say for certain if VW would like to bring either here. They would undercut the Golf, of which will allready be discounted to $14,995 when it goes on sale this summer, which is right around the starting price of the Honda Fit Sport.
... I'd imagine that VW has thought about it, and I'm sure they are watching what happens with the Fit, Yaris, Versa, etc.
Not bad at all. I wonder how it's equipped.....
- 1,397
yssman
while you are on point about a lot of things, GMs hybrids have been lambasted by the press. the silverado was described as an expensive power outlet. the vue hybrid is using the same system (large bet driven alternator type thing) and doesnt get teh same fuel economy as a ford escape or toyota ighlander hybrid for that matter.
at this moment, toyota has a massive headstart on everyone. except possibly honda. but honda arent trying to get all out milage it seems.
and toyota sold over 100000 priuses last year. thats one hundred thousand. i thought it was a fringe car. i guess it aint.
but thats volume some manufacturers wish they had in a single car; mitsibishi, isuzu, lincoln (trucks aside) mercury, saab, etc etc etc
while you are on point about a lot of things, GMs hybrids have been lambasted by the press. the silverado was described as an expensive power outlet. the vue hybrid is using the same system (large bet driven alternator type thing) and doesnt get teh same fuel economy as a ford escape or toyota ighlander hybrid for that matter.
at this moment, toyota has a massive headstart on everyone. except possibly honda. but honda arent trying to get all out milage it seems.
and toyota sold over 100000 priuses last year. thats one hundred thousand. i thought it was a fringe car. i guess it aint.
but thats volume some manufacturers wish they had in a single car; mitsibishi, isuzu, lincoln (trucks aside) mercury, saab, etc etc etc
Pink_the_Floyd
(Banned)
- 4,041
I wonder what'll change should they be #1?
Maybe some more sportscar and even a supercar?
That's something Toyota is really lazy in; besides the Supra they haven't got anything fast to challenge other cars, well yeah, the Volta and the GT-ONE Roadgoing but the GT-ONE is far too exspensive and the Volta is a concept
Maybe some more sportscar and even a supercar?
That's something Toyota is really lazy in; besides the Supra they haven't got anything fast to challenge other cars, well yeah, the Volta and the GT-ONE Roadgoing but the GT-ONE is far too exspensive and the Volta is a concept
- 6,447
Toyota is in a league of its own. Boring, conservative sedans ever since Supra, Celica and MR2 were shot dead. Camry Solara is too big and too conservatively styled to be any fun. That's why Toyota's average buying age is somewhere in the 50's, and even though Scion brought young buyers, it's under a different badge and there are lots of people who doesn't know that Scion is part of Toyota.
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