learning GT4 physics flaw from GPL

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I just playing grand prix legend, wow, how can I miss this :ouch:, it even have GT2 red rock valley track 👍. If I know this game first I should not be fooled by GT physics engine. Along with Viper racing I use it to know how the tuning should be done.
GPL created by Papyrus, and Viper Racing by MGI (former Papyrus coder)

In those two game:
incresing spring rate do not increase grip, so soft front/strong rear will oversteer. GT4 = understeer 👎.
lower front damper will make the car oversteer at corner lift throttle. GT4 = understeer 👎.

Thank goodness that aside from that flaw, GT4 still can display the same behaviour as those game, some. I just have to remember that some value are reversed.

For those of you doubting GPL, see at http://www.bhmotorsports.com/, people over there really picky when it comes to physics, load of discussions just to fix physics of game like Richard Burn Rally. But I don't find a discussion about fixing GPL physics in there :).
 
i had the same experience when i played LFS for the 1st time. I just couldnt bring myself to play gt3 anymore and i was very dissapointed with GT4. i also got my driver's permit around the same time.

LFS is much more realistic than gpl so you should check that out :)

lfs got best physics award from bhmotorsport as well as a few others.

www.liveforspeed.net
 
Yes 👍, too bad I don't have analog controller right now, so I can't play LFS at all :(.

When I start seeing some weirdness in GT physics I start looking for other game,LFS is the first one I found :). Because I can't play it I start looking again and found the other two. Tuning screen is what make me interested to GPL and viper racing :).
 
incresing spring rate do not increase grip, so soft front/strong rear will oversteer. GT4 = understeer 👎.
Sorry but a soft front end and stiff rear in GT4 does not automatically result in understeer by any stretch of the imagination.


lower front damper will make the car oversteer at corner lift throttle. GT4 = understeer 👎.
Again this is not true.

GT4's physics engine is certainly not perfect (but neither are the alternatives you mention), but its certainly not as bad as you are making out here.


Thank goodness that aside from that flaw, GT4 still can display the same behaviour as those game, some. I just have to remember that some value are reversed.
Now you know full well that I'm going to disagree with this, you have never demonstrated that any suspension tuning value in GT4 is reversed, and the common concensus on the subject is that they are not reversed.


For those of you doubting GPL, see at http://www.bhmotorsports.com/, even a Richard Burn Rally voted as 20% realistic in there.
??????

Are you saying that BHMS believe that RBR is only 20% realistic? Would you care to explain why they then voted it 'Physics Engine of the Year' in 2004?

Richard Burns Rally - BH Motorsport Awards - Click to view



Regards

Scaff
 
In those two game:
incresing spring rate do not increase grip, so soft front/strong rear will oversteer. GT4 = understeer 👎.
lower front damper will make the car oversteer at corner lift throttle. GT4 = understeer 👎.
I have played Viper Racing, and niether of those straight up causes oversteer in Viper Racing. There is more to it than that.
 
GT4's physics engine is certainly not perfect (but neither are the alternatives you mention), but its certainly not as bad as you are making out here.

Now you know full well that I'm going to disagree with this, you have never demonstrated that any suspension tuning value in GT4 is reversed, and the common concensus on the subject is that they are not reversed.
Yes. I am aware of that. Just expressing my feeling. Have you ever tried viper racing or GPL? you should be able to get it for free easily. I love GPL for it's track collection, but I still keep going back to GT to try what I learn :).

Are you saying that BHMS believe that RBR is only 20% realistic? Would you care to explain why they then voted it 'Physics Engine of the Year' in 2004?

Richard Burns Rally - BH Motorsport Awards - Click to view
Not bmh award, from fans opinion, I'll try to find the link.....
edit:failed (or maybe I confused it with this?). I change the statement.

There are many thread specifically discuss how to make RBR physics more realistic though (I really want to see this in GT4 too):
http://www.bhmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=38467
However... if you do the same stiff spring settings in WRC in RBR(with the right damper adjustment...), such as the car doesn't bottom out, or dip much, you get results not expected in real life, the car just won't hold itself on the road, it keeps bumping forever, or until you rollover to a ditch or tree..

BTW, do you know any GT4 setting specifically created to match real car handling and feel, even if it is normal road car? I have trouble finding it. If there is not thread like that, maybe it's about time we create "my real car setting thread" :).

I have played Viper Racing, and niether of those straight up causes oversteer in Viper Racing. There is more to it than that.
I feel soft spring has more grip on viper, I make sure the car do not roll too much first. Feel the same way in GPL. It feel as more oversteer when I stiffen the rear (I start at all soft), it feel the same way on extreme or small difference. Feel the same way for other car too in viper (car addon).

Yesterday I try to tune GT4 Ford GT '05 on trial mountain, I already did some basic tuning for this car, the car feel oversteer at that moment, the rear want to throw outside. When it pass S turn before finish line, the rear want get thrown outside cause by rear hopping. On Viper or GPL, my tuning would be to soften the rear or stiffen the front spring since I already use stiffest damper for the rear. I already use minimum initial spring on this car, so I increase the front spring rate, I increase it from 5.8 to 9.0. The result, the car become more stable when hopping, BUT the car become MORE oversteer, on full throttle or cruising the rear get thrown outside more. 👎.

In GPL or Viper the above tuning will result in BOTH less rear hopping and less rear get thrown outside. In the end, I have to use stiffer rear, from 6.3 to 8.0. the car can turn at full throttle with less rear thrown outside. And ofcourse the rear hop more 👎.

I use maximum ride height, so I don't think there will be any car bottoming issue.

I interested to see what everyone solution is when tuning competition over.
 
Yes. I am aware of that. Just expressing my feeling. Have you ever tried viper racing or GPL? you should be able to get it for free easily. snip

From fans opinion, I'll try to find the link.....

snip

I hope you are not talking about illegally free copies...if they are freeware, then I apologise, if not, then talking about Piracy is illegal.

gOoSe
 
I hope you are not talking about illegally free copies...if they are freeware, then I apologise, if not, then talking about Piracy is illegal.
it's a working demo version. In case of viper racing, a third party demo which contain all addon track and addon car. The GPL 2004 demo has all car. track can be added later. Nürburgring only available from original game though.

And just found out that out of many GPL track, there is GT2 red rock valley track 👍 ! I must play this :D.
 
Yes. I am aware of that. Just expressing my feeling. Have you ever tried viper racing or GPL? you should be able to get it for free easily. I love GPL for it's track collection, but I still keep going back to GT to try what I learn :).
I've not tried Viper racing, but I have played GPL for many, many years. One point you have to keep in mind with GPL is that is does model the very crude (by todays standard) tyres of the cars and the relative lack of rigidity of the cars.

Now while this of course does not change the basic laws of physics, you do need to keep in mind that the tyres of the day did offer very different levels of performance.



Not bmh award, from fans opinion, I'll try to find the link.....
edit:failed (or maybe I confused it with this?). I change the statement.

There are many thread specifically discuss how to make RBR physics more realistic though (I really want to see this in GT4 too):
I'm not saying that RBR does not have room for improvement (and I have never said any different for GT4), but I had to point out its much better than 20% right, so thanks for the correction.



BTW, do you know any GT4 setting specifically created to match real car handling and feel, even if it is normal road car? I have trouble finding it. If there is not thread like that, maybe it's about time we create "my real car setting thread" :).
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here?

Within the limits of the physics engine GT4 will roughly react like a real car with whatever settings you use, it will just act like a real car with the suspension settings you use.

If you are asking 9as I think you are) for settings that will make a car react exactly like its 'real world' equivelent, well then the closest you will get to that in GT4 is by leaving the car stock and running on N2 or N3 tyres.



Yesterday I try to tune GT4 Ford GT '05 on trial mountain, I already did some basic tuning for this car, the car feel oversteer at that moment, the rear want to throw outside. When it pass S turn before finish line, the rear want get thrown outside cause by rear hopping. On Viper or GPL, my tuning would be to soften the rear or stiffen the front spring since I already use stiffest damper for the rear. I already use minimum initial spring on this car, so I increase the front spring rate, I increase it from 5.8 to 9.0. The result, the car become more stable when hopping, BUT the car become MORE oversteer, on full throttle or cruising the rear get thrown outside more. 👎.

In GPL or Viper the above tuning will result in BOTH less rear hopping and less rear get thrown outside. In the end, I have to use stiffer rear, from 6.3 to 8.0. the car can turn at full throttle with less rear thrown outside. And ofcourse the rear hop more 👎.

I use maximum ride height, so I don't think there will be any car bottoming issue.

I interested to see what everyone solution is when tuning competition over.
You are aware that the Ford GT is mid-engined?

Yet you are throwing generic forumla at it, I've mentioned this many, many times before. You seem to have a habit of just throwing set-ups at a car with little though as to what may happen.

You've used maximum ride height (which will increase load transfer) on a mid-engined car, and then wonder why you may have to increase the rear spring rate?

Mid-engined cars are notoriously very tricky to tune and set-up, and once again you have failed to give any details, a car does not just 'oversteer'. When is it doing it? Corner entry? Corner exit? On a wide open throttle? Mid-corner, Under braking?

How many times do people have to point out that tuning does not have exact rules, just guides to a set-up. This applies in the real world as much as here and is the main problem with most sims. What works for one car, on one track will not be that same for another car on another track. Particularly if the cars have different drivetrain layouts and the tracks are different in surface, corner make-up and condition.

By applying 'joined up' thinking when tuning in GT4 I have never found any results that are not explainable using (basic) real world theory, and I have to say the only people I have come across who do have issues with it tend to just straight to extreme values (within the avaliable range - I'm not talking about hacked values here) and then wonder why it does not make sense.

Every tune I have seen from you jumps straight to dampers set to 10/10, now it does not matter what you believe 10 means (soft or firm), this value is not going to be right for every track and every car, yet I have seen you use it almost with out exception.

I'm sorry to say but I think the problem here lies with the tuner.

Regards

Scaff


Regards

Scaff
 
I don't know anything about tuning, but I do know that you can't put the same setup on a 2005 Ford GT, a 1998 Dodge Viper and a 1967 F1 car and expect it to work on all 3 exactly the same way. They are entirely different cars with different drivetrains and suspension setup.
 
Ok,

If you are asking (as I think you are) for settings that will make a car react exactly like its 'real world' equivelent, well then the closest you will get to that in GT4 is by leaving the car stock and running on N2 or N3 tyres.
I am asking if you ever come accross anyone posting setting for car similar to his own and make it handle like his own car too. Not just tire, but also spring rate, damper, camber, etc. In other word, someone posting setting to make his GT4 car handle like his real life car.


You've used maximum ride height (which will increase load transfer) on a mid-engined car, and then wonder why you may have to increase the rear spring rate?
The reason for max ride height is to make detection for car handling easier. I have to increase rear spring rate because increasing front would make the problem worse. I don't reduce rear ride height because I am worry with the last S-turn bump.

Mid-engined cars are notoriously very tricky to tune and set-up, and once again you have failed to give any details, a car does not just 'oversteer'. When is it doing it? Corner entry? Corner exit? On a wide open throttle? Mid-corner, Under braking?
By oversteer I mean that the car will go to the inside more during cornering (mid corner) when cruising (no throttle, no brake) or full throttle. And when the car meet bump during cornering, the rear will hop and get thrown to outside.The car still tend to go wide during lift off throttle or at beginning of WOT, but not much, so I settle with damper. The stabilizer is already extreme. I use low LSD. The suspension option that I need to use is camber, toe, and spring rate.

I want to reduce the car behaviour that tend to go inside during cornering, at mid corner. And I want to reduce the last S-turn rear hopping too.

When I try using camber the car still display the same behaviour even with 5.0/0.0 camber, so I don't use it. I stay away from toe since I don't have experience with it in GT4. This make the suspension option left is spring rate.

At that moment the spring rate is 5.8/6.3. I actually want to use stabilizer, since I just need a bit more, but I already use extreme setting.

I don't know anything about tuning, but I do know that you can't put the same setup on a 2005 Ford GT, a 1998 Dodge Viper and a 1967 F1 car and expect it to work on all 3 exactly the same way. They are entirely different cars with different drivetrains and suspension setup.
Yes, I am starting from scratch for Ford GT. I work gradually from curing acceleration, mid corner handling, to lift of/apply throttle handling, to braking handling.
 
To be honest I am very reluctant to reply to specifics for two reasons, firstly its well off topic for this thread and secondly the car and track being discussed are (I believe) for this weeks GT4 tuning competition and as such I would not want to cause any problems.

I owuld however be more than happy to give the car a go and comment on the full set-up once the comp closes.

Regards

Scaff
 
Ok, thanks.
Since GPL car is mid engined (or rear?) I think Ford GT have near similarity for handling. Tuning should be more similar compare to FR or FF.
 
To continue, I am now have GPLRank of +450, really horrible. But considering I just started, I think rank 76xx is still good :P. And I found another GPL player using keyboard too :).

I playing around hacking GPL this time, but with available tool provided by other GPL fans.

I really like how stabilizer or anti roll bar behave almost the same way as GT4 (when I join tuning competition) or GT2 (the one I play most). The tuning range for stabilizer is higher than in GT game.

For spring rate, I still hold my previous statement, that in GT game more spring rate equal to more grip. Finding the answer in GPL is a bit hard. I have to use high value to see how it behave and I have to test it when cornering too.

My conclusion after experimenting:
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.
in GPL: 700/70 lb/in wheel rate will make the froint tire grip LESS than the rear.

So, I should use soft spring rate in GPL, but I still have to avoid suspension bottoming of course.


On LSD side, I found an interesting article about GPL differential, which I think similar to GT game LSD concept.

In summary,
clutch in GPL: aa/bb, x
similar to
GT game LSD: x/a/b

Setup guide 0.91 by Niels Heusinkveld (beta)

Last updated March 03: got rid of most stuff, improved the differential bit



Introduction

There used to be a boring 10 minute read here, either skip to the next bit or tap your fingers for 10 minutes..



Differential

You probably owned one of those ‘pedal karts’ where you could pedal your way around the schoolyard under the impression that you had the coolest wheels of the class.. Think back.. do you remember the understeer those things had? The rear wheels just wanted to push the car forward when you where about to impress that chick with some flashy cornering.

When a car is taking a corner, its outside wheels travel a longer way than the inside wheels. If you put a solid axle between the left and right rear wheels the inside and outside wheel start working against each other. They can’t have different speeds as they are connected to one sturdy steel axle. The result is that the rotation speed of the most heavily loaded tire (with the same underlying surface) will become the rotation speed of the entire rear axis. The other rear wheel tries to push the car forward in this case. . You also see this with karting, the lack of independently rotating rear wheels can give chronic understeer in some situations. (i think a kart 'steering geometry' makes it nearly lift the inside rear when cornering to counter this)

Because taking corners fast is all what racing is about, they came up with a clever solution for this problem. Instead of a solid rear axle, there is one short axle coming from each rear wheel. Where they meet are 2 or more clutch plates. Depending on the force at which these plates are pressed together, the rear wheels will either

1) rotate independently easily

2) behave almost like a solid rear axle

With very little force on the clutch plates, they are easily ‘rubbed’ over each other. One guy can hold the left rear, and with hand force another guy would be able to rotate the right rear. With a lot of force on the plates, they barely rotate relatively to another. Even with two large blokes you would barely be able to rotate the wheels independently. The differential in GPL allows you to set the force at which the clutch plates are pressed together. This is also known as the differential’s lock. (more force = more lock)

You can set the amount of lock independently for when you are on the gas and when you are off on the gas. Independent of being on or off the gas (i.e. as much influence on both) have the amount of clutches. 1 set of clutch plates can withstand a certain amount of torsion before the maximum amount of friction is reached and they start to rotate at different speeds. Logically, the more clutch plates you put in, the harder this gets, regardless if you are on the gas or off the gas.

In the car setup menu you can select a differential from 30/30 to 85/85 with small steps between these extremes. The first number is the ON gas value, and the second number is the OFF gas value. A smaller number means a bigger force (more lock) and a bigger number means a smaller force (less lock) You can set the amount of clutches anywhere from 1 to 6. As said, the clutches amplify the lock, set with the xx/xx numbers.

Those numbers (30...85) are the angles at which cogwheels in the differential are placed. Depending on the angle, a certain amount of force will go in radial direction on the axle and clutch plates (i.e. not pressing them together) and a certain amount will be in axial direction, i.e. pressing the clutch plates against each other. Lets go back to physics class again for a second. A force not directly in the x or y axis (i.e. not exactly at 0 or 90 degrees) has a x component and an y component. As shown below.



The size of the components depends on the angle at which the force is applied. At 85 degrees (almost ‘vertically up’) there is only a very small horizontal component. Now back to the GPL differential. When you set GPL to a 85/85 diff this means that both ON and OFF the gas only a very little amount of force is applied at the clutches. When you set it to 60/30, more force is applied on the clutches when you go on the gas, and even more when you are off the gas.

GPL drivers talking about differentials is a sight to behold. ‘I like 85/45’ one says. Another guy enthuses the crowd about 60/30... The differential is perhaps the best way to prove that the guys who setup a car by ‘feel’ can’t really interpret the ‘feel’ that GPL gives them. First of all, they usually forget to mention the amount of clutches, and we’ve just seen that the clutches are directly related to the amount of lock. You can’t really blame the people who don’t understand though. Presenting the differential in a xx / xx / x format (power angle / off power angle / clutches) isn’t a direcly usable format.

We’ve seen with the wheelrates that they are instantly usable. This doesn’t go for the differential. In order to make the differential ‘workable’ you need to express the numbers in ‘amount of lock’ and not some weird looking 45/30/2 or something. You want to know how much lock you get when on the gas and how much you get off the gas. 45/30/2 means that you have a bit more differential lock when you are off the gas than on the gas, but how does it compare to 60/45/4? The angles are bigger, meaning less lock.. but there are more clutches, meaning more lock. If you knew 45/30/2 means, say 1.5 lock on the gas and 1.8 off the gas, and 60/45/4 is 1.4 on the gas and 1.7 off the gas, only then are you able to work with the differential in a proper way.

Well, and this is perhaps the most ‘groundbreaking’ bit of this setup guide, Marc Mercer (with some aid from above) found a way to convert all differentials in workable lock numbers! So from now on you can see the exact amount off lock for the on and off gas angles with a certain amount of clutches all in the handy table below.



The table is easy to read. If you have a 60/30/2 differential that means 1.500 lock on the 'on gas' side and 2.598 lock on the 'off gas' side. The bigger the number the more lock. The differential took a while to explain. Armed with the knowledge I will now explain what the differential means when you’re driving the GPL cars. (about time eh :-) On a straight you won’t notice what type of differential you fitted. In a corner things become all the more apparent.



On the gas

You are on the gas coming out of a corner. Your goal is to exit the corner as fast as possible. Now what ‘on gas’ angle and clutch combo do we need for that? Since we’re looking only at the ‘gas’ side lets take 85/xx/1 first. Look at the table, this gives you 0.17 lock. Now we try to accelerate out of a right hand corner. Most of the pressure is on the left rear tire. The clutch plates are barely pressed together. This means that the engine power soon overcomes the clutch clench force, and it will start to power the least loaded wheel: your inside rear tire will start to spin, leaving the outside with not much drive force. You will leave a lot of smoke at the inside yet you will crawl out of the corner.

Ok so 0.17 isn’t enough lock, we need more power on the heavy loaded left rear tire in order to properly accelerate out of the corner. Lets do 30/xx/6, giving us 38 times more lock than 85/xx/1 Now when we accelerate out of a corner, a lot of power goes to both wheels. Should you get wheelspin then you will have a hard time trying to correct it as both rear tyres will loose grip at the same time as opposed to just the inside wheel with 85/xx/1.

These are the 2 extremes. Now what is the 'right amount of lock'. A good question. With too little lock you will get understeer and lack of acceleration when the engine's energy is wasted on the inside (not heavily loaded) tyre. Too much lock and you'll be having the 'solid axle pushing the car forward' understeer behaviour, and this is more likely to cause spins as wheelspin is harder to correct. (more sudden less forgiving) Somewhere in the middle there is an area providing lock that makes the inside tyre neither spin and wasting power, nor being too locked and pushing the car forward or oversteer suddenly with wheelspin.. Depending on your 'style' (most have none and are just hanging on for dear lifet) and other setup parameters. you need to look for lock values of about 1 to 1.5.

But how do you set the exact on power lock? The aim in GPL is to drive smoothly. When done properly smooth driving is faster, easy on the tyres, and it is the best base for consistent driving. If you use a 60/xx/2 diff you got a lock of 1.5. If you're very sensitive with your right foot this will provide a good 'power oversteer' based differential setting. Most likely however you won't be very smooth with this as all too soon the rear wants to step out. 60/xx/1 will be a lot easier but you may notice that you can't 'steer the car with the power' as nicely anymore. you can try settings from 'harsh' lock to 'easy' :

60/xx/2 = 1.500 'snappy' tricky on power behaviour
70/xx/3 = 1.368
75/xx/4 = 1.295
75/xx/3 = 1.036 more controllable less oversteer

What will you end up with? just try them :) get GPL race engineer here which enables you to set those 'weird' non standard 70 and 75 ramp angles. Don't worry, if they wanted a 70 or 75 power ramp angle they could've manufactured one back then, its perfectly sane and definitely not cheating. If you're wondering why I'm always using at least 2 clutches, read on!



Off the gas

You are off the gas braking for, and entering a corner. Your goal is to enter the corner not really as fast as possible, but to do it nice and controlled, so you can line up for a quick exit. You can win 0.1 with a good corner entrance, but you will loose 3 tenths with a bad exit. Lets try the same extremes as we did with the ‘on gas’ testing. So xx/85/1 is up first, giving us the same 0.17 lock but this time when we release the gas pedal. We try to enter a corner and we find that there isn’t talk of the ‘nice and controlled’ entrance as talked about earlier. The reason is simple. The lack of lock makes the car almost rotate into the corner by itself because the rear wheels are almost ‘eager’ to rotate at a different speed .Xx/30/6 on the other hand reintroduces the ‘solid rear axle’ argument with which I started the differential topic. In this case the car doesn’t rotate at all, it just wants to go straight on. You need a certain amount of lock to avoid automatic or over rotating into the corners. But you don’t need too much: that pushes the car forward instead of nicely into the corner.

VERY important!

If you're keeping ANY gas on while braking you are NOT using the 'off power differential lock' at all. Why not? because you remain ON power which makes the ON gas lock apply. So the 'off gas' or 'coast' lock doesn't come into play when the car is slowing down, it only comes into play when you FULLY release the gas pedal! So if you're one of those folks who keep gas on while braking 'to stabilize the car' (fools I tells ya!) you can set the coast angle to anything you want, you won't be using it anyway! Drive GPL properly and don't use gas and brake at the same time!

Yes that's right, if you use 30/85/1 (as often seen in 'hotlap' setups) and you keep some gas on while braking (as done by a LOT of drivers) you're using basically 30/30/1 as the lock while braking and turning into a corner remains the 'on power' lock.

Anyway, for us proper drivers who take their foot off the gas pedal while braking, we have an additional differential setting to use namely the 'coast' or 'off power' lock. To avoid the car 'auto rotating' into the corner as mentioned earlier, you need a decent amount of lock.Even with a ramp angle of 30 you still need at least 2 clutches or it will be too oversteery! This depends on the entire setup (rollbars / wheelrates / toe) but to avoid too much oversteer I usually end up between 2.5 and 3.5 'coast' lock. I like oversteer and with little toe and wheelrates based on the car's weight distribution I most definitely get an oversteery car on entry using xx/45/3 With more toe and a different setup you might not experience this as oversteery. Again, smoothness is the key. You will end up being more consistent and 'safe' using a slightly understeery setting, like xx/30/3 or even xx/30/4. Some coast settings from 'oversteery' to 'understeery' would be:

xx/30/2 = 2.598 oversteery ish when releasing gas fully
xx/45/3 = 2.828
xx/40/3 = 3.064
xx/30/3 = 3.464
xx/30/4 = 4.330 understeery ish when releasing gas fully



So what diff to use

From 'hard' to 'easy' with an optimum probably being in the middle somewhere for most drivers, these are some differentials you could try:

60/30/2 Harsh and oversteery both on and off power
70/45/3 Considerably nicer but still oversteer based depending on the rest of your setup
75/45/4 Not too 'tricky' but you can't 'steer with the pedals' as accurately

It would be utterly foolish to say 'which is faster' because:
1) all GPL cars are overpowered, undergripped mean machines that theoretically are nearly as fast regardless of exact car setup
2) this means its all in the driver and what inputs he gives to the car.
3) a good setup IS important to make the driver able to race with as smooth and few inputs as possible, but the achievable laptime won't differ much between setups.

Simply put, someone could do world record laps using any of the above mentioned differentials. The driver is the alien, not the setup. I really like 70/45/3 as this gives me 'just about controllable' oversteer both on and off the gas. What is the right differential for you? try them out and find out for yourself! You now know what the 'power' and 'coast' lock does so you should be able to try a few diffs and feel the effect they have.

It does take a half decent driver to 'feel' a racing sim. Decent doesn't mean how fast he or she is but how well he or she receives what GPL is saying to them. I didn't notice small changes in a GPL setup until one day ... I saw the light so to speak :) Chances are you're as ham footed as an elephant just like I was one year ago and you can't really tell 75/45/5 from 60/30/2. Don't fool yourself then. I'm sure half of the GPL racers are too inexperienced to feel the subtle effects. You have to drive very consciously and record the car behaviour in your black box (brain).. At first I really wasn't capable of telling one setup from another. It came with the years (literally) GPL is meant to be fun and if you can't really 'feel it' well enough yet, don't worry just go back to whatever differential you seem to like and enjoy the ride!
 
For spring rate, I still hold my previous statement, that in GT game more spring rate equal to more grip. Finding the answer in GPL is a bit hard. I have to use high value to see how it behave and I have to test it when cornering too.

My conclusion after experimenting:
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.
in GPL: 700/70 lb/in wheel rate will make the froint tire grip LESS than the rear.

Good info and an interesting piece, 👍 .

However I'm sure you know what I am going to point out, you can hold by the opinion that GT spring rates tuning is reversed, but you have not ever demonstrated this in any way.

Once again you have posted up a generic example of extreme values and stated it as a 'fact' that can be applied across the board and blatently ignored the effect extreme values can have on tuning and balance, despite this very subject having been discussed with you many times.

I quote "In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.", and once again I would ask how can you try and apply a blanket statement like this to every car in the GT series (as you now seem to be saying its across the whole GT series)?

Quite simply you have made this claim a number of times, but never actually backed it up with any evidence, what are the other settings at play here, what is the car, what is its weight, what is the drivetrain layout?

All these factors need to be taken into account, which you fail to address every time you make this claim.

Ta

Scaff
 
Once again you have posted up a generic example of extreme values and stated it as a 'fact' that can be applied across the board and blatently ignored the effect extreme values can have on tuning and balance, despite this very subject having been discussed with you many times.
Well, first guess, since I don't see this happen (or atleast not realize) in GPL, game touted by many as very close to realistic, I don't think that happen in GT4 too. Extreme tuning or not it will be the same.

Second guess, if the above do happen, GT4 extreme value is reverse of what happen in GPL extreme value. And since GPL is more respected than GT4 in true life simulation, I'll say it is GT4 spring rate that is reversed from real life.

I quote "In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.", and once again I would ask how can you try and apply a blanket statement like this to every car in the GT series (as you now seem to be saying its across the whole GT series)?
If I should rephrase that, then:
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make the grip ratio toward the front more compared to 5.0/5.0 spring rate.

Note that I use above normal GT4 stock spring rate value, so, I hope you don't call this too soft. Minimum wheel rate in GPL is 50lb/in for front, 70 lb/in for rear. For both GPL and GT4, I compare the value with extremely STIFF value. I don't compare with extremely SOFT value.

I say GT Game, as a whole GT series because I tune spring rate of GT1, GT2 and GT4 in the same way. Never give me "what the ...." surprise.


Quite simply you have made this claim a number of times, but never actually backed it up with any evidence, what are the other settings at play here, what is the car, what is its weight, what is the drivetrain layout?
If I should put an evidence, how?
Any suggestion of what GT4 car should be compared to GPL Lotus or Cooper?
 
Well, first guess, since I don't see this happen (or atleast not realize) in GPL, game touted by many as very close to realistic, I don't think that happen in GT4 too. Extreme tuning or not it will be the same.

Second guess, if the above do happen, GT4 extreme value is reverse of what happen in GPL extreme value. And since GPL is more respected than GT4 in true life simulation, I'll say it is GT4 spring rate that is reversed from real life.
GPL is a game that is said to be very realistic, I have however heard people who race vintage F1 cars complain that its too difficult.

One thing that should however be kept in mind is that the cars being recreated in GPL are not in any way comparable with modern cars, and while the physics of the real world obviously do not change, they are running tyres of a totally different method of construction and ratio, etc.

Cars of this vintage did not generally understeer on the limit in the same way modern cars do, the tyres simply react in a different way (mainly due to construction and compounds), oversteer and four wheel drifts were the order of the day.

This is my main problem with your comparison here, you are trying to compare two totally different things in very general terms. Would you expect a Grand Prix car of this age to behave in exactly the same way as a modern F1 car, or even respond to tuning in the same way?



If I should rephrase that, then:
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make the grip ratio toward the front more compared to 5.0/5.0 spring rate.
And I don't agree and would once again ask that you give me an example of this to try, I've asked numerous times now and you have not done so. Prove to me that you can recreate the effect consistently over a wide range of cars, with differing drivetrains and differing weights (and that the effect occurs with smaller differences between the values).

It not that I particularly disagree with what you have said in regard to GPL, but I most certainly do in regard to GT4, you are again applying blanket statements across a wide range of wildly differing cars taht will react to tuning in very different ways, and again without reference to how the rest of the car is set-up, all of which is important to looking at how the car may react.

You also seem to claim to have used compariable figure when comparing GPL and GT4 here....

Sucyhao
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.
in GPL: 700/70 lb/in wheel rate will make the froint tire grip LESS than the rear.

....yet if we convert the GPL spring rate figures to kg/mm (closest to GT4 values) we get 80.65/8.06, which I am sure you will agree is quite different to 15.0/5.0! Just because these may be the lower and upper limit in GPL and GT4 does not mean they are directly comparable, not to mention the other variables involved and teh fact that have not even mentioned exactly which cars have provided these figures.

I understand what yo are trying to say, I just think that your methodology is poorly thought out and as a result the data is not directly comparable.




Note that I use above normal GT4 stock spring rate value, so, I hope you don't call this too soft. Minimum wheel rate in GPL is 50lb/in for front, 70 lb/in for rear. For both GPL and GT4, I compare the value with extremely STIFF value. I don't compare with extremely SOFT value.

I say GT Game, as a whole GT series because I tune spring rate of GT1, GT2 and GT4 in the same way. Never give me "what the ...." surprise.
The entire definition of soft or stiff spring rates will depend on the weight of the car in question, hence the reason I say you simply can't make blanket statements like this, a spring rate that is stiff on a 500kg car is going to be soft on a 2000kg car.



If I should put an evidence, how?
Any suggestion of what GT4 car should be compared to GPL Lotus or Cooper?
No car in GT4 does compare to any of the GPL cars, certainly not in basic form and even more so when you look at tyres, GPL uses tyre modeling based on the actual era involved, GT4 uses modern tyre data and modern tyre data with too much grip in most cases.

Hence the reason why its almost impossible to directly compare them.

Regards

Scaff
 
This is my main problem with your comparison here, you are trying to compare two totally different things in very general terms. Would you expect a Grand Prix car of this age to behave in exactly the same way as a modern F1 car, or even respond to tuning in the same way?
Because I believe, same engine or simulation engine can be applied for any car. Car handling can be difference from different car characteristic or tire.
The game engine is the same for either old car or new car.

This quote mention that Papyrus Nascar 4 use the improved engine of GPL (same physics engine). From GPL beta tester and real race driver.
Alison's 2nd Generation Setups


And I don't agree and would once again ask that you give me an example of this to try, I've asked numerous times now and you have not done so. Prove to me that you can recreate the effect consistently over a wide range of cars, with differing drivetrains and differing weights (and that the effect occurs with smaller differences between the values).
Ok, I will test it on numerous car with different weight and layout when I have a chance.

BTW, is it not ok if I continue post anything that I found in both GPL and GT4 even if it is not agreed by you or anyone else? Because I am thinking of posting what I found about damper too......

I understand what yo are trying to say, I just think that your methodology is poorly thought out and as a result the data is not directly comparable.
Can you give me example of what better methodology are? even if it will proof that I am wrong, no problem, I am more curious than just defending my opinion.



The entire definition of soft or stiff spring rates will depend on the weight of the car in question, hence the reason I say you simply can't make blanket statements like this, a spring rate that is stiff on a 500kg car is going to be soft on a 2000kg car.

No car in GT4 does compare to any of the GPL cars, certainly not in basic form and even more so when you look at tyres, GPL uses tyre modeling based on the actual era involved, GT4 uses modern tyre data and modern tyre data with too much grip in most cases.

Hence the reason why its almost impossible to directly compare them.
I thought thing like this is universal in simulation gaming or reality:

Introduction to Race Car Dynamics by Allison
Fortunately, we have several chassis adjustments that will allow us to tune the balance. These adjustments impact the weight transferred to a tire during cornering.

The front and rear anti-roll bars are the primary adjustments used to affect the car's balance. These affect the roll stiffness; that is, how much weight is transferred to the outside wheel during cornering.

There is an anti-roll bar at each end of the car. If we stiffen the front bar, the the car will tend to understeer more; if we soften it, the car will tend more towards oversteer.

Stiffen the rear, and the car will tend towards oversteer; soften the rear, and the car will tend towards understeer.

Changes that promote understeer will increase the car's traction under acceleration, while changes that promote oversteer will decrease traction.

We can also adjust brake balance. This will adjust the amount of work each end of the car does under braking. Too much braking by the rear wheels, and the car will have a tendency to spin under braking, because if the rear wheels lock they no longer have any directional stability. Too much the front, and the car will tend to go straight under braking, and will be less efficient as well.

We can also adjust spring stiffness to tune the balance of the car. If we stiffen the springs at one end of the car, that end will give up grip in relation to the other end. So if we make the rear springs stiffer, the car will tend to oversteer more. If we soften that end, the opposite will happen.

...

Transient States

Transient states refers to the moments when the car is changing from one condition to another - acceleration to braking, cornering to straight, etc. The most important of these is the transition from straightline to cornering. At this time, the car transfers weight from all four wheels to the outside wheel. How it does this - how quickly, and the impact of this on the car's responsiveness and feel, as well as stability, is critical to the drivability of the car.

Transient behavior is mostly impacted by the dampers (inappropriately referred to as shock absorbers in the US). Stiffening the dampers at one end of a car is roughly equivalent to stiffening the springs or anti-roll bars, but the effect is transient; a stiffer damper has most of its effect on handling during the moment when the driver applies a control input, such as applying the brakes, turning the wheel, or applying throttle, or when the car encounters an irregularity in the track surface, such as a bump or a dip.


So I am thinking on comparing how the suspension change in both game will affect car handling. Maybe I don't have skill or wheel to do that. But I expect that if I do the same thing for both game they will give the same result. The above quote seem reasonable for me, so I will keep it. Besides, it help me tune greatly in GT4 too :).
 
Because I believe, same engine or simulation engine can be applied for any car. Car handling can be difference from different car characteristic or tire.
The game engine is the same for either old car or new car.

This quote mention that Papyrus Nascar 4 use the improved engine of GPL (same physics engine). From GPL beta tester and real race driver.
http://eaglewoman.rscsites.org/gpl/setups-gen2.htm
The quote you gave above clearly says that GPL has some (by the sounds of it) quite serious issues with the effect of extreme value settings. Particularly in recreating what should happen when suspension bottoms out.

Your own quote here says that the effect of extreme settings in GPL (here very soft suspension settings) are not accurate and was one of the areas addressed for N4.



Ok, I will test it on numerous car with different weight and layout when I have a chance.

BTW, is it not ok if I continue post anything that I found in both GPL and GT4 even if it is not agreed by you or anyone else? Because I am thinking of posting what I found about damper too......
Excellent, but do remember to not just jump to extreme values, but try out all the in between ranges as well.

As far as posting the info up on other tests I have no problem with that as long as you have no problem with me discussing it with you, which I guess is the main point of posting it anyway.

👍



Can you give me example of what better methodology are? even if it will proof that I am wrong, no problem, I am more curious than just defending my opinion.
My main issue with the methodology is in two areas, the first I mentioned in my last post, that of using wildly different spring rate ranges between GPL and GT4 and then trying to directly compare the results. In addition you also failed to mention the weight of the cars involved, which will have an effect on the rates being compared.

The final part (that I can think of for now) is that you totally ignored all the other suspension settings that will have a major effect on this, for example you could (on either of these) set the damper values so high that they restrict the spring action, yet as you don't mention any other values how are we to know?

A well written piece with detailed explanations of what you are looking for, what you are comparing and what the conclusions are is what I am talking about. It takes time and thought, not just a couple of lines and a statement.

For example your entire piece above on GPL vs GT4 spring reaction was

In those two game:
incresing spring rate do not increase grip, so soft front/strong rear will oversteer. GT4 = understeer 👎.
lower front damper will make the car oversteer at corner lift throttle. GT4 = understeer 👎.

Which you then clarified with

My conclusion after experimenting:
In GT game: 15.0/5.0 spring rate will make front tire grip MORE than the rear.
in GPL: 700/70 lb/in wheel rate will make the froint tire grip LESS than the rear.

All we have here is conclusion, and presented like this its little more than opinion presented as fact.

Now compare this to the piece I put together for the Spring rate discussion we had a while ago.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2261569&postcount=17

Quite a bit different in terms of how I reached the conclusion.



I thought thing like this is universal in simulation gaming or reality:

http://eaglewoman.rscsites.org/gpl/grehelp/dynamics.htm

So I am thinking on comparing how the suspension change in both game will affect car handling. Maybe I don't have skill or wheel to do that. But I expect that if I do the same thing for both game they will give the same result. The above quote seem reasonable for me, so I will keep it. Besides, it help me tune greatly in GT4 too :).
The above piece is a very handy guide to how tuning will work in general terms, to be honest my own guides cover the same, but in greater detail. However what you will see is the number of times words like may and tend are used, indicating that these are (as I have always said) general trends. Suspension tuning is not the exact science that you want it to be, too many variables are involved, certainly in the real world, and to a degree as games and sims evolve and get better you see more of this entering into them as well.

Regards

Scaff
 
Ok 👍.

The quote you gave above clearly says that GPL has some (by the sounds of it) quite serious issues with the effect of extreme value settings. Particularly in recreating what should happen when suspension bottoms out.

Your own quote here says that the effect of extreme settings in GPL (here very soft suspension settings) are not accurate and was one of the areas addressed for N4.
I use max ride height and make sure the car do not bottom out. 5.0 height is known as excessive even on nurburgring. And high load in here means when the car bottoming out, it will hit bump rubber which transfer very high load to the tire. I even use minimum bump rubber length too.

Besides I think:
"I pressed him for details, and he said that at high vertical loads, GPL's tire model produces a lower level of grip than a real-world tire would. N4 models this part of real-world tire behavior better."
means that normally tire still do loose grip but not as much. I don't think that in Nascar 4 car would be oversteer on spring rate front much stiffer than rear.

I still think tuning will be the same in it's own way for each engine no matter what the car is either in GT engine or Papyrus Open Engine. GT4 has both old and new car too.


About the value of other suspension, I do limited suspension compare then. GT4 first:

In my last 3 entry on tuning competition, I basically tune only two suspension setting, stabilizer and damper. I tune stabilizer first and then damper, only if I still have enough time that I tune other. I start with initial setting that I consider as soft suspension:

Spring rate: minimum front / minimum rear
Ride Height: maximum front / maximum rear
Damper bound: maximum front / maximum rear
Damper rebound: maximum front / maximum rear
Camber: zero front / zero rear
Toe: zero front / zero rear
Stabilizer: minimum front / minimum rear


1. Ford GT '05
This car feel super oversteer on mid corner so:

Decision 1A. increase front stabilizer, to 7/1, still not enough though

After this tuning I drive around a bit, then I detected that the car will go wide if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 1B. reduce rear damper, both to 10/1, seems ok


2. Paganini Zonda C12S
This car feel badly understeer on mid corner so:

Decision 2A. increase rear stabilizer, to 1/7, a bit excessive

I detected that the car will go wide if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 2B. reduce rear damper, both to 10/7, seems ok


3. Hyundai Tiburon
This car feel understeer on mid corner so:

Decision 3A. increase rear stabilizer, to 1/7, a bit excessive on low speed

I detected that the car will go in too much if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 3B. reduce front damper, both to 7/10, seems enough


Note that the way I tune the damper is with asumption that higher damper value is softer.

My version of "Rear Stiffer (higher value) Increases oversteer"(from your guide) or "Stiffen the rear, and the car will tend towards oversteer"(from allison guide) like what I need to do in Ford GT and Zonda is to LOWER the rear damper.

I don't think my decision is wrong. If you think it is wrong, please explain after you TRY yourself. Remember that I limit my self on tuning only stabilizer and damper. So please replicate my setting and try to tune the car the same way I tune it, by only changing stabilizer and damper. Use stock car with FC suspension.

I use same damper setting for both bound and rebound since I never experiment on different bound and rebound yet. It would be more complicated I guess.


On GPL side, detecting the handling differences between stabilizer is easy, a 10 lb/in difference can be felt from 0-200 lb/in provided. It feel the same way as GT4, stiffer front feel more understeer. Detecting damper is a bit difficult, still I have hint that using 5/1 damper will make the car go wide more at push throttle. I will review damper again on gpl after I got better skill, currently +5 seconds from reference time on watkin glen.
 
Besides I think:
"I pressed him for details, and he said that at high vertical loads, GPL's tire model produces a lower level of grip than a real-world tire would. N4 models this part of real-world tire behavior better."
means that normally tire still do loose grip but not as much. I don't think that in Nascar 4 car would be oversteer on spring rate front much stiffer than rear.

I still think tuning will be the same in it's own way for each engine no matter what the car is either in GT engine or Papyrus Open Engine. GT4 has both old and new car too.

Why are you fixing on only one part of your own quote and ignoring the following section....

I found that while the GPL Cobra tended to snap sideways when the suspension bottomed, the real-world Cobra tended to track straight. Compressing the rear suspension to the point where the tire was the only spring did not cause the tail to step out, as it does in GPL.

...which quite clearly states that if GPL engine does not react realistically in the given example. An example, which is of suspension so soft that it bottoms out. In other words GPL is not always realistic with its recreation of extreme values.

That’s not a debatable point, rather your quote and a quote from the GPL team themselves.



About the value of other suspension, I do limited suspension compare then. GT4 first:

In my last 3 entry on tuning competition, I basically tune only two suspension setting, stabilizer and damper. I tune stabilizer first and then damper, only if I still have enough time that I tune other. I start with initial setting that I consider as soft suspension:

Spring rate: minimum front / minimum rear
Ride Height: maximum front / maximum rear
Damper bound: maximum front / maximum rear
Damper rebound: maximum front / maximum rear
Camber: zero front / zero rear
Toe: zero front / zero rear
Stabilizer: minimum front / minimum rear
A number of questions pop into my head here, the first and most important being why are we now talking about dampers and stabilisers? This was a discussion about extreme spring rate settings?

The second question is how does raising ride height and reducing camber 'soften' suspension?



I don't think my decision is wrong. If you think it is wrong, please explain after you TRY yourself. Remember that I limit my self on tuning only stabilizer and damper. So please replicate my setting and try to tune the car the same way I tune it, by only changing stabilizer and damper. Use stock car with FC suspension.

I've highlighted the above section in bold because its very important and I think key to a number of points, you state that you start with your 'soft' settings and then claim that in the set-up you have only tuned using damper and stabilisers. Well quite clearly that’s not true, you have changed every suspension setting bar toe, so you are not just looking at dampers and stabilisers. It’s not possible to say you are just tuning these areas and ignore everything else, they are all working together.

However I pressed on and gave you tests a run, I ran the cars at the Grand Valley Speedway as it contains a good range of corners and has a smooth track surface.



1. Ford GT '05
This car feel super oversteer on mid corner so:

Decision 1A. increase front stabilizer, to 7/1, still not enough though

After this tuning I drive around a bit, then I detected that the car will go wide if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 1B. reduce rear damper, both to 10/1, seems ok

Basic set-up
Well the changes from default have increased load transfer in a huge way, with a resulting balance of mild oversteer on the throttle out of constant radius corners, its far from 'super'.

Change 1A
Stabiliser f7/r1
An immediate increase on understeer in the 's' section of the track between the two hairpins and out of the last sweeper.

Change 1B
Damper f10/r1 (both)
A massive increase in push out of the final sweeper, with exit speed negatively effected. The speed through to 's' section was also reduced and required far more care.



2. Paganini Zonda C12S
This car feel badly understeer on mid corner so:

Decision 2A. increase rear stabilizer, to 1/7, a bit excessive

I detected that the car will go wide if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 2B. reduce rear damper, both to 10/7, seems ok

Basic Set-up
The Zonda in this tune had easy to initiate power-ion oversteer out of slow (2nd gear) corners, but with a slight push out of the final sweeper and through the 's' section, mainly due to the load transfer to the rear of the car when getting back on the throttle.

Change 2A
Stabilisers f1/r7
This resulted in excessive power-on oversteer out of the slower corners, while helping to reduce the push out of sweepers. Care still needed to be taken due to the level of load being transferred.

Change 2B
Dampers f10/r7 (both)
Reduction in the level of power-on oversteer out of slower corners, but an increase in the level of push out of sweepers as teh front felt slower to react to the load transfer than the back.



3. Hyundai Tiburon
This car feel understeer on mid corner so:

Decision 3A. increase rear stabilizer, to 1/7, a bit excessive on low speed

I detected that the car will go in too much if I push throttle in the middle of cornering so:

Decision 3B. reduce front damper, both to 7/10, seems enough

Basic Setup
This car, with its higher ride height options and greater curb weight, shows the folly of these 'soft' defaults most clearly. Load is moving around the car whenever you accelerate, brake or turn, even small changes in the cars attitude throw the load around, resulting in a very unstable car. Heavy push out of slow corners and i sweeping corners, particularly the 's' section.

Change 3A
Stabilisers f1/r7
Lift off oversteer can now be initiated in the car under braking and off the throttle. Back step-out allows the car to be lead by the nose, but in keeping with its FWD layout it will still push wide out of the sweepers.

Change 3B
Dampers f7/r10 (both)
Better front end grip in both slower corners and particularly through the 's'-section.

I have to say that your descriptions of what the problem was are still not clear, and I have to question the wisdom of both your 'basic' set-up and the desire to jump from one end of the scale to the other. A number of times you have ignored values that could have been of use. On the Zonda you say that Stab 1/7 is excessive, yet you don't then reduce it, you just move to the dampers. Why, if the stabiliser setting was too high, did you not reduce it?



Note that the way I tune the damper is with asumption that higher damper value is softer.

My version of "Rear Stiffer (higher value) Increases oversteer"(from your guide) or "Stiffen the rear, and the car will tend towards oversteer"(from allison guide) like what I need to do in Ford GT and Zonda is to LOWER the rear damper.
And I would say that you still have quite a bit to learn about describing accurately what a car is doing in GT4 and why.



I use same damper setting for both bound and rebound since I never experiment on different bound and rebound yet. It would be more complicated I guess.
Its an important thing to understand, and one that you need to before you once again state categorically that you know what damper values are and what they do.



On GPL side, detecting the handling differences between stabilizer is easy, a 10 lb/in difference can be felt from 0-200 lb/in provided. It feel the same way as GT4, stiffer front feel more understeer. Detecting damper is a bit difficult, still I have hint that using 5/1 damper will make the car go wide more at push throttle. I will review damper again on gpl after I got better skill, currently +5 seconds from reference time on watkin glen.
You do realise that by saying that you are agreeing that higher damper values are stiffer? As a higher front value resulting in a car running wide (out of a corner and on the throttle) would indicate that the front is the stiffer end.


Now I also used the Hyundai Tiburon/Coupe to run some spring and damper value tests. I used the default FC suspension set-up unless indicated.

Spring Rate f15.8 (max) / r5 (default)
Initial turn-in is very sharp and direct, with the car quick to react to steering input. However ultimate front-end grip is low and the car pushes wide on the throttle easily.


Spring Rate f3.8 (min) / r5 (default)
Slower initial turn-in , but not too bad, better overall grip from the front-end. Still feels still stiff and slow to react to load transfer.


Spring Rate f3.8 (min) / r5 (default)
Damper fb1/fr1 (min) / rb8/rr8 (default)

Very sluggish turn-in and poor steering response, but excellent front-end grip, particularly in slower corners, but only when the car was 'set' and the load over the front. Overall the front feels soft over curbs in comparison to the last two set-ups.


Conclusions
I have to say that I have reached two main conclusions here, the first is a re-enforcement of my belief that you can't 'formula' tune. Simply trying to use a one-size fits all method of set-up just does not work, in connection to this jumping around the settings with little regard of how one works in comparison to the other is rarely satisfactory. I have to say in every case, but particularly the Hyundai Tiburon/Coupe, I preferred the default FC set-up to yours.

The second point is that this exercise has once again re-stated for me that damper and spring-rate values react pretty much as I would expect them to do in GT4, lower values are softer and higher values are stiffer.

Regards

Scaff
 
which quite clearly states that if GPL engine does not react realistically in the given example. An example, which is of suspension so soft that it bottoms out. In other words GPL is not always realistic with its recreation of extreme values.
I am not sure if you really know what it's mean or not, the "when the suspension bottomed" part. Even at softest spring rate setting, a max ride height would not bottomed.

Just reminder if you already know this:
Papyrus make an addition for GPL patch, which increase the ride height minimum from 1.0 to 2.5, since this calue can result on car bottoming on many tracks. I read somewhere in GPL forum, that 4.0 ride height is enough even for nuerburgring.

As I already aware of this when testing, I use max ride height to prevent bottoming. So, I am not talking about how car bottoming affect grip, I am talking about how stiffer spring rate affect grip.


A number of questions pop into my head here, the first and most important being why are we now talking about dampers and stabilisers? This was a discussion about extreme spring rate settings?
I create this thread to post comparison between tuning in GT4 and GPL. I still don't have chance to test spring rate. I post stabilizer and damper because that's what I already done.

The second question is how does raising ride height and reducing camber 'soften' suspension?
Do not, ride height to remove car bottoming from equation and zero camber is my style.

you have changed every suspension setting bar toe, so you are not just looking at dampers and stabilisers. It's not possible to say you are just tuning these areas and ignore everything else, they are all working together.
What I mean to say is, other part of my soft setting supposed to be tuned too. If you prefer default setting, it is ok too, but when I tune for tuning competition that's the setting I use.


I have to say that your descriptions of what the problem was are still not clear, and I have to question the wisdom of both your 'basic' set-up and the desire to jump from one end of the scale to the other.
I tune stabilizer based on how I feel during cornering (mid corner) whlie cruising (no power applied) or full throttle, steering is full left or full right. I tune damper based on how I feel during cornering WHEN applying full throttle or release throttle.
Basic setup is not meant to be the final setup, it is means to make tuning easier, by starting with max height I can tell clearly what happen during cornering and what need to be done. Of course when I change ride height or spring rate I usually adjust other suspension setting too.


A number of times you have ignored values that could have been of use. On the Zonda you say that Stab 1/7 is excessive, yet you don't then reduce it, you just move to the dampers. Why, if the stabiliser setting was too high, did you not reduce it?
At that time I have to choose between 1/6 or 1/7, but I am guessing that if the judge use wheel, it will be easier to correct oversteer than understeer.


And I would say that you still have quite a bit to learn about describing accurately what a car is doing in GT4 and why.
You need to explain about how you drive the corner too. I am not quite clear to what happen during cornering. Note that I associate damper tuning with on power or off power. I am not quite clear to what you do during those event.

Stabilizer effect is understandable since we have the same feel that stiffer is less grip. But damper part is confusing.

"A massive increase in push out of the final sweeper, with exit speed negatively effected. The speed through to 's' section was also reduced and required far more care.". When this push out happen? sudden full throttle?


"Reduction in the level of power-on oversteer out of slower corners, but an increase in the level of push out of sweepers as teh front felt slower to react to the load transfer than the back.". I use full throttle on mid corner the feel this, how about you?

"Better front end grip in both slower corners and particularly through the 's'-section.". What you do in those corner?

Can you explain again what is changed at the moment you press throttle in mid corner?


You do realise that by saying that you are agreeing that higher damper values are stiffer? As a higher front value resulting in a car running wide (out of a corner and on the throttle) would indicate that the front is the stiffer end.
Yes, but note that I write this for GPL, "On GPL side,...". On GPL stiffer part seem has less grip. What make me hard to notice the difference is because in GPL if you drive using keyboard you have to be precise at pressing turn button, at most corner, you can't just fully press turn button, you have to tap it.



Spring Rate f15.8 (max) / r5 (default)
Initial turn-in is very sharp and direct, with the car quick to react to steering input. However ultimate front-end grip is low and the car pushes wide on the throttle easily.


Spring Rate f3.8 (min) / r5 (default)
Slower initial turn-in , but not too bad, better overall grip from the front-end. Still feels still stiff and slow to react to load transfer.
What do you mean by sharp and direct? Car willing to go to where you dirrect it?
How do you know the front-end grip increases? You do full throttle full turning on both casses and softer front spring rate feels has more grip?


Spring Rate f3.8 (min) / r5 (default)
Damper fb1/fr1 (min) / rb8/rr8 (default)

Very sluggish turn-in and poor steering response, but excellent front-end grip, particularly in slower corners, but only when the car was 'set' and the load over the front. Overall the front feels soft over curbs in comparison to the last two set-ups.
Again, how do you decide that front-end has more grip?


Conclusions
I have to say that I have reached two main conclusions here, the first is a re-enforcement of my belief that you can't 'formula' tune.
What do you mean by formula? those soft setting? I use it to help me know what the car weakness is, I don't use it as final tuning.

The second point is that this exercise has once again re-stated for me that damper and spring-rate values react pretty much as I would expect them to do in GT4, lower values are softer and higher values are stiffer.
If I see at only the turn-in part of your comparison (I don't know how you get conclusion about the front grip).

1. Stiff spring rate has sharper turn-in than soft spring rate.
2. Stiff spring rate is quicker to react to steering input than soft spring rate.
3. Stiff spring rate pushed wider on throttle than soft spring rate.
4. Lowest front damper has more slugish turn-in than default front damper.
5. Lowest front damper has poorer steering response than default front damper.

What do you do when turn-in? full throttle, brake, cruising, or trail braking? I like to know it.

Point 1 and 2 is what I feel as more grip. I usually feel how the front grip by doing full throttle full turning, hands continue pressing throttle and turn.
Point 3 is interesting, load transfer is done correctly it seems or can be caused by uneven surface.
Point 4 and 5 by referring Alison's "The most important of these is the transition from straightline to cornering." and "Transient behavior is mostly impacted by the dampers" I take this as proof that lower front damper reduce front-end grip at that moment, a sign of stiffer damper.

If I recall right, isn't your tuning guide mention that damper has role during load transfer? Are you explaining that more slugish turn-in is caused by excellent front-end grip during load transfer?

But, please explain what you do at turn-in.

To detect more or less grip for spring rate or stabilizer this is what I do:
- find corner that I can take with full throttle and full turn, hands never leave throttle or turn button.
- take a look at which end goes outside the course during full throttle and full turn.

To detect more or less grip for damper this is what I do:
- find corner that I can take with full throttle and full turn.
- take a look at which end goes outside the course when I play around with throttle.

Notice that I use different method to see how suspension affect handling. I don't know why you decide to ignore the corner entry result in damper testing. I think looking at the car behaviour during turn-in is important when tuning damper. Although I don't use this kind of method because I feel using on power and off power handling is more easier to do.

What do you see from the turn-in behaviour?
What do you think happen during turn-in?
If the car feel slugish, what do you think caused it?
If the car feel sharp, what do you think caused it?

GPL
For rechecking, I try default GP '67 Ferrari at mosport, with modification 20:1 steer.

default spring rate is 85/95. When I drive first corner with full throttle (90 mph corner)

compare to default, 50/95 spring rate definitely has sharper turn in, with car want to go inside during cornering, need to turn with tapping turn button.
compare to previous, 100/95 spring rate feels less sharp, with car stay in the line even with turn button fully pressed.
 
I am not sure if you really know what it's mean or not, the "when the suspension bottomed" part. Even at softest spring rate setting, a max ride height would not bottomed.

Just reminder if you already know this:
Papyrus make an addition for GPL patch, which increase the ride height minimum from 1.0 to 2.5, since this calue can result on car bottoming on many tracks. I read somewhere in GPL forum, that 4.0 ride height is enough even for nuerburgring.

As I already aware of this when testing, I use max ride height to prevent bottoming. So, I am not talking about how car bottoming affect grip, I am talking about how stiffer spring rate affect grip.
As far as I am aware suspension bottoming out only has one meaning, its when the suspension has reached the limit of (compression) travel and hit the bump stops. The end result is that the suspension is now only the bump stop rubber and the tyres.

So yes I am fully aware of what it means, and so do Papyrus. Hence the reason why they released the patch to reduce the chance of bottoming out occurring, as they know the physics engine is not ‘right’ when it happens. It’s a fix to reduce the chance of the suspension bottoming out, its neither fixes the flaw in the physics engine or totally removed the chances of it happening (regardless of the ride height as that is not the only factor in play).




I create this thread to post comparison between tuning in GT4 and GPL. I still don't have chance to test spring rate. I post stabilizer and damper because that's what I already done.
If that’s the case then why have you being saying since the start of this thread that GT4 spring rates are reversed and using GPL to prove this?

You have stated that GPL proves GT4 is incorrect, and yet in the piece I have quoted above you say you have not yet tested this. I find that quite disturbing to say the least.




I tune stabilizer based on how I feel during cornering (mid corner) whlie cruising (no power applied) or full throttle, steering is full left or full right.
Are you saying that you do not apply the throttle mid-corner (as you say no power applied) or are you talking about part throttle here? Also why just full throttle and full steering lock? What about applying the power in a measured manner and using reduced steering lock?




I tune damper based on how I feel during cornering WHEN applying full throttle or release throttle.
You should be tuning the dampers based on what is happening principally while the load is being transferred, and again why is the throttle being treated like an on/off switch?




Basic setup is not meant to be the final setup, it is means to make tuning easier, by starting with max height I can tell clearly what happen during cornering and what need to be done. Of course when I change ride height or spring rate I usually adjust other suspension setting too.
Yet you quite clearly said that you would work in dampers and stabilisers and only tune other settings if you have the time.




At that time I have to choose between 1/6 or 1/7, but I am guessing that if the judge use wheel, it will be easier to correct oversteer than understeer.
Why did you have to use 1/6 or 1/7?




You need to explain about how you drive the corner too. I am not quite clear to what happen during cornering. Note that I associate damper tuning with on power or off power. I am not quite clear to what you do during those event.
And this may be part of the problem; you can’t just look at dampers as playing the main role with power, but rather with regard to load transfer (as far as handling is concerned) and these are two different things. Take a corner exit, the dampers will being doing the majority of their work as you accelerate and the load transfers towards the rear, however once the load has transferred the influence they have over the car is massively reduced and spring rates and stabilisers then tend to dominate.

As far as how I take a corner, well that does depend on the corner in question, but if we take the second hairpin at Grand Valley as an example.

Approaching the corner I will tend to brake hard and early to reduce the speed carried through from the previous section, I reduce the braking as I begin to turn-in (trail braking. Turn-in is the critical, but short lived period when the front tyre nearest the corner is asked to initiate the cars initial change in direction. As the load begins to shift to the outside of the car I will balance the throttle to maximise the speed I can carry through the corner, using small correction of the throttle and steering to hold the car on the limit of grip.

As the corner apex is crossed I gradually and smoothly start to apply the power and unwind the steering lock, as the load transfers to the rear of the car, working to get back on the power as quickly, but smoothly as possible.

And you?




"A massive increase in push out of the final sweeper, with exit speed negatively effected. The speed through to 's' section was also reduced and required far more care.". When this push out happen? sudden full throttle?
I never use sudden full throttle, you lose time and control that way, quick but smooth application of steering, throttle and brakes are a must.

In the case of the sweeper it was a case of understeer (push) developing if too much throttle was used on corner exit, or if the power was applied too quickly. As such final exit speed was reduced.

As far as the ‘s’ section was concerned, as the load moved from one side of the car to the other the car was slow to react at the front and as such grip was limited, resulting in a slower speed that this section could be taken at.




"Reduction in the level of power-on oversteer out of slower corners, but an increase in the level of push out of sweepers as teh front felt slower to react to the load transfer than the back.". I use full throttle on mid corner the feel this, how about you?
I use whatever is required for the corner, you can’t set a car up to be ‘right’ for every corner on a track, you need to look at the most important corners on a circuit and tune around them. The first of my tuning guides has a large section on this very subject, and I use it in the example of a tune in the same guide.





"Better front end grip in both slower corners and particularly through the 's'-section.". What you do in those corner?

Can you explain again what is changed at the moment you press throttle in mid corner?
Do you mean after the apex? As you would not go to the power mid way through most slow corners?

In addition the issue with the ‘s’ section is more about left-right load transition than the power (you need to stop this obsession with dampers being all about power on or off, its far more about the load transfer).




Yes, but note that I write this for GPL, "On GPL side,...". On GPL stiffer part seem has less grip. What make me hard to notice the difference is because in GPL if you drive using keyboard you have to be precise at pressing turn button, at most corner, you can't just fully press turn button, you have to tap it.
Ah right, you see you first mention GPL, then you mention GT4, then you mention the settings.




What do you mean by sharp and direct? Car willing to go to where you dirrect it?
How do you know the front-end grip increases? You do full throttle full turning on both casses and softer front spring rate feels has more grip?
I mean you turn the steering wheel and the car turns, it responds well to steering input, and I judge front end grip by feel and the cornering speed limit.




What do you mean by formula? those soft setting? I use it to help me know what the car weakness is, I don't use it as final tuning.
I mean you start from the same point and have a set value for certain values, for example you never use any camber, despite it being a proven method of increasing cornering grip.




If I see at only the turn-in part of your comparison (I don't know how you get conclusion about the front grip).

1. Stiff spring rate has sharper turn-in than soft spring rate.
2. Stiff spring rate is quicker to react to steering input than soft spring rate.
3. Stiff spring rate pushed wider on throttle than soft spring rate.
4. Lowest front damper has more slugish turn-in than default front damper.
5. Lowest front damper has poorer steering response than default front damper.

What do you do when turn-in? full throttle, brake, cruising, or trail braking? I like to know it.

Point 1 and 2 is what I feel as more grip. I usually feel how the front grip by doing full throttle full turning, hands continue pressing throttle and turn.
Point 3 is interesting, load transfer is done correctly it seems or can be caused by uneven surface.
Point 4 and 5 by referring Alison's "The most important of these is the transition from straightline to cornering." and "Transient behavior is mostly impacted by the dampers" I take this as proof that lower front damper reduce front-end grip at that moment, a sign of stiffer damper.

If I recall right, isn't your tuning guide mention that damper has role during load transfer? Are you explaining that more slugish turn-in is caused by excellent front-end grip during load transfer?

A number of points come to mind with the above and the first is that you seem to be talking about initial turn-in and entry as if they are the same thing, but they are not.

I do cover this in the tuning guide:

Going faster
Corner Entry
Every corner has an entry point and this section is itself broken down into two areas, the initial turn in and the entry itself.

Turn-in
This is the moment that the wheel is turned and the front tyre nearest the corner apex must grip and provide the initial change in direction. It is one of the trickiest areas to tune in GT4, as other that front toe settings, the effects of changes can be difficult to predict.


Entry
After the turn-in the car’s weight will transfer to the front tyre furthest away from the corner apex, for the vast majority of cars the natural balance at this point is understeer.

Settings that can be used to effect how the car handles here are the Spring Rate, Ride Height, Dampers, Camber, Brake Balance and Anti-roll bars.

What this also illustrates is a difference in how we state tuning effects, you are all “is” and “will”, unfortunately tuning simply is not this straightforward, it’s a lot more of a “may” and “can” situation. Particularly as settings are not isolated, but influence each other in a huge way.

AS with many things in life and tuning, what gives you an advantage in one area may cause you problems in others, stiffer suspension often improves initial turn-in, but this can be at the expense of corner entry grip.




To detect more or less grip for spring rate or stabilizer this is what I do:
- find corner that I can take with full throttle and full turn, hands never leave throttle or turn button.
- take a look at which end goes outside the course during full throttle and full turn.

To detect more or less grip for damper this is what I do:
- find corner that I can take with full throttle and full turn.
- take a look at which end goes outside the course when I play around with throttle.
Why are you so obsessed with treating the throttle as if its an on/off switch? Do you drive on the road like this? Yes you do need to get to wide open throttle as quickly as possible, but it has to be done in a progressive manner, not thrown like a switch.




Notice that I use different method to see how suspension affect handling. I don't know why you decide to ignore the corner entry result in damper testing. I think looking at the car behaviour during turn-in is important when tuning damper. Although I don't use this kind of method because I feel using on power and off power handling is more easier to do.
Exact were did I ignore corner entry in damper testing?

And again you obsessing about power either being on or off, its not a damn switch and as far as damper settings go its load transfer that’s important. The ‘s’ section at Grand Valley clearly illustrates this, taken correctly you can transition through this left/right/left section on a fairly constant throttle, yet the load is shifting from side to side and working the dampers in a massive way. It tests dampers to the limit, yet power delivery does not vary during it.



Regards

Scaff
 
If that’s the case then why have you being saying since the start of this thread that GT4 spring rates are reversed and using GPL to prove this?

You have stated that GPL proves GT4 is incorrect, and yet in the piece I have quoted above you say you have not yet tested this. I find that quite disturbing to say the least.
Based on my previous experience, I tune using spring rate and camber to cure understeer previously. But since I recently (sadly, after creating this thread) differentiate handling between during load transfer or not, I feel that I have to recheck again, which I happen to have a chance yesterday.

Are you saying that you do not apply the throttle mid-corner (as you say no power applied) or are you talking about part throttle here? Also why just full throttle and full steering lock? What about applying the power in a measured manner and using reduced steering lock?
I use fake DS2 controller, and I use button as throttle and brake, both only available as on/off, the analog button is unpredictable. I detect how stabilizer affect handling during full steering when full accelerating or when no throttle applied. Of course this is not the fastest way to take a corner, I do this to measure the value that I should use. If I have steering wheel and pedal, I might do this differently, maybe with constant steering and constant throttle.

You should be tuning the dampers based on what is happening principally while the load is being transferred, and again why is the throttle being treated like an on/off switch?
I don't know what do you mean by "while load is being transferred", when this happen? I use throttle like an on/off switch thinking that this will force the load to be transferred.

Yet you quite clearly said that you would work in dampers and stabilisers and only tune other settings if you have the time.
I do my best to test the car bellow two hours visit playing PS2 in my friends house attempting to create a good setting for tuning competition, I usually still have time to tweak ride height. Camber tuning would need another hour or two for me. Tuning with only stabilizer and damper satisfy me enough. But still if I have time I would tune other suspension setting.

Why did you have to use 1/6 or 1/7?
I feel 1/6 too understeer on fast corner, and 1/7 only a bit oversteer on slow corner.

And this may be part of the problem; you can’t just look at dampers as playing the main role with power, but rather with regard to load transfer (as far as handling is concerned) and these are two different things. Take a corner exit, the dampers will being doing the majority of their work as you accelerate and the load transfers towards the rear, however once the load has transferred the influence they have over the car is massively reduced and spring rates and stabilisers then tend to dominate.
I don't understand, I thought by using power as an on/off switch I can simulate front-rear load transfer. So I am thinking during this moment, damper will play the main role.


Approaching the corner I will tend to brake hard and early to reduce the speed carried through from the previous section, I reduce the braking as I begin to turn-in (trail braking. Turn-in is the critical, but short lived period when the front tyre nearest the corner is asked to initiate the cars initial change in direction. As the load begins to shift to the outside of the car I will balance the throttle to maximise the speed I can carry through the corner, using small correction of the throttle and steering to hold the car on the limit of grip.

As the corner apex is crossed I gradually and smoothly start to apply the power and unwind the steering lock, as the load transfers to the rear of the car, working to get back on the power as quickly, but smoothly as possible.
At which point you detect damper, stabilizer and spring rate setting?

I brake hard, just before the turn I release the brake, press turn buton (full), then press full throttle, then after the initial unstable condition (during load transfer) I will do some correction depend on what condition the car is. tapping throttle or steering. I exit corner always with full throttle, but with some steering correction.

I never use sudden full throttle, you lose time and control that way, quick but smooth application of steering, throttle and brakes are a must.
Agree, but I don't do perfect cornering to test my setting, it's more like I use corner to test my setting. I take corner in certain way to see how my suspension works.

In addition the issue with the ‘s’ section is more about left-right load transition than the power (you need to stop this obsession with dampers being all about power on or off, its far more about the load transfer).
Are you saying that during power on or off load transfer do not happen?

I mean you start from the same point and have a set value for certain values, for example you never use any camber, despite it being a proven method of increasing cornering grip.
I don't trust default setting. I always use camber when tuning the car for drifting. I hate to use camber to correct grip driving understeer or oversteer now. Feels complicated and confuse me sometime.

A number of points come to mind with the above and the first is that you seem to be talking about initial turn-in and entry as if they are the same thing, but they are not.
I am confused, at which point the load transfer occur, turn-in or entry? what is the name of condition after entry.

I use two stage of condition during cornering:
1. Stage when load transfer happen, during sudden steering or acceleration or braking change. Usually happen on the first second or two after sudden turning or sudden acceleration, the car behaviour can change from understeer to oversteer or oversteer to understeer.
2. Stage when load transfer is done or not happen, during constant stering or speed. No change of behaviour happen.

I only see the oversteer or understeer aspect during those condition, I don't see cornering speed or how the front grip. I will compare how front grip/thrown compare to rear grip/thrown. I see how car create it's course line during cornering.

I use condition 1 to detect damper effect, I use condition 2 to detect stabilizer effect. When I recently test spring rate, I found that I can detect how it affect both condition.

AS with many things in life and tuning, what gives you an advantage in one area may cause you problems in others, stiffer suspension often improves initial turn-in, but this can be at the expense of corner entry grip.
I test spring rate recently, I will post it at bottom.

Why are you so obsessed with treating the throttle as if its an on/off switch? Do you drive on the road like this? Yes you do need to get to wide open throttle as quickly as possible, but it has to be done in a progressive manner, not thrown like a switch.
Not in real life of course. Beside that I have to, by treating throttle as on/off switch I can detect setting effect easier. I will purposely do this with wheel if I want to tune damper and spring rate (just notice).

Exact were did I ignore corner entry in damper testing?
Explain what do you mean by slugish turn-in. What do you think caused this sluggish behaviour? Since I think those sluggish behaviour and poor steering response from 1/8 damper comes from car understeer reaction during load transfer, at condition 1. That is, front tire grip is less than rear tire grip, making turn-in slugish.

And again you obsessing about power either being on or off, its not a damn switch and as far as damper settings go its load transfer that’s important. The ‘s’ section at Grand Valley clearly illustrates this, taken correctly you can transition through this left/right/left section on a fairly constant throttle, yet the load is shifting from side to side and working the dampers in a massive way. It tests dampers to the limit, yet power delivery does not vary during it.
That's impossible for me to do, I can only do jerky movement. Besides with throttle as switch I can detect how damper react during front to rear or rear to front load transfer.


Spring rate testing, Holden Monaro CV8 '04
After tweaking the other suspension setting I feel that at minimum 3.6/2.8 spring rate the car feel balance at condition 1 and a bit understeer at condition 2.

Then I try using 5.0/2.8. The car feel understeer at condition 1 now. The car front will go wide more at second after doing sudden full lock turn. But at condition 2 the car feel to turn more, more oversteer.

Then I try using 3.6/6.0. The car feel a bit more oversteer at condition 1. At condition 2 the car feel more understeer, at least the car do not feel more oversteer than first setting.

Then I try using 3.6/3.6. Feel a bit more oversteer at condition 1. Still feel the understeer at condition 2.

I try using 15.0/2.8 too, but sadly I forget the detail. From what I remember the car rear become easily thrown out drifting. I don't remember any understeer at condition 2.

In the end, I do not change the spring rate of my submitted tuning for tuning competition. I keep using minimum spring rate 3.6/2.8. I don't increase both front and rear because it seem to increase drift behaviour. I don't change front and rear too. I don't increase front because the understeer at condition 1 really ruin the handling, it will negate the improvement of the oversteer at condition 2. I don't increase rear spring rate because I don't need more oversteer at condition 1 and I don't want more understeer at condition 2, since the car already understeer at condition 2.

My current conclusion for spring rate:
- it will affect the car behaviour during load transfer. softer spring rate will result in more grip during load transfer. Overall soft spring rate setting will have better grip during load transfer.
- when load transfer not happen, stiffer spring rate will increase grip. The grip available with stiffer spring rate will not overcome load transfer loss of grip caused by stiffer spring rate unless extreme front-rear setting is used.

Second point is what I use to accuse that GT4 spring rate is reversed. I will continue to test it.
 
I just realize that some driving style may never reach condition 2. I realize this after talking to gregc which find my Hyundai Tiburon always understeer.

This is puzzle me, because on condition 2 at least on slow corner it will oversteer, but then I am thinking what if gregc do driving a bit like yours. Driving with carefull throttle control and smooth steering, never do constant steering and constant throttle.

In this condition, my more understeer at condition 1 damper would hurt. My strategy to reduce snap oversteer during throttle will result in more understeer if condition 2 never reached.
 
I use fake DS2 controller, and I use button as throttle and brake, both only available as on/off, the analog button is unpredictable. I detect how stabilizer affect handling during full steering when full accelerating or when no throttle applied. Of course this is not the fastest way to take a corner, I do this to measure the value that I should use. If I have steering wheel and pedal, I might do this differently, maybe with constant steering and constant throttle.

I don't understand, I thought by using power as an on/off switch I can simulate front-rear load transfer. So I am thinking during this moment, damper will play the main role.

Not in real life of course. Beside that I have to, by treating throttle as on/off switch I can detect setting effect easier. I will purposely do this with wheel if I want to tune damper and spring rate (just notice).

That's impossible for me to do, I can only do jerky movement. Besides with throttle as switch I can detect how damper react during front to rear or rear to front load transfer.

You don't think that using this particular controller is part of the problem here?

As far as treating the throttle and/or brakes as an on/off setting, then of course its going to cause problems, by rapidly pressing the button the load is being thrown back and forth (or side to side if its steering) rapidly. The result is that the load is constantly shifting and will make it very difficult to judge what is going on.

Now GT4 does take steps to minimise the effect these actions have (to try this at a cars limit in the real world would result in an almost instant loss of control), its certainly not idea as far as reading what the car is doing.

I would strongly recommend upgrading to a DS2 or better still a decent steering wheel and pedal set.




I don't know what do you mean by "while load is being transferred", when this happen? I use throttle like an on/off switch thinking that this will force the load to be transferred.
Why are you asking what I mean by this when you have been constantly talking in a manner that suggests you understand load transfer?

Load transfer occurs when a cars velocity changes in any direction, so an change in acceleration, braking or steering will result in a transfer of load. The relative force of these actions (in conjunction with the basic layout of the car) will determine the degree of transfer, so the harder you accelerate, brake or steer the greater the load transferred will be.

So if you are cornering and make slight adjustments of the throttle to trim the line the load transfer changes would be small and the car will remain stable, however if you try and trim the line by switching the throttle on and off repeatedly then the changes would be major and the car more unstable. Its why smooth use of all a cars control are vital to proper control on the limit.



At which point you detect damper, stabilizer and spring rate setting?
Rather that repeat myself endlessly simply read the section on corner breakdown in my first tuning guide, which quite clearly covers this.



Are you saying that during power on or off load transfer do not happen?
No not at all, where did I even come close to saying that?



I don't trust default setting. I always use camber when tuning the car for drifting. I hate to use camber to correct grip driving understeer or oversteer now. Feels complicated and confuse me sometime.
Now that's quite a change of tune, as I can quite clearly remember you arguing that the use of any camber if a car did not visibly roll was wrong. Many people disagreed with you and you stated that we were wrong, despite real world examples that disputed your claims.

Now you say that you simply don't understand it (which many of use said at the time), once again I believe we have an issue of you attitude of presenting opinion as fact showing its head again.



I am confused, at which point the load transfer occur, turn-in or entry? what is the name of condition after entry.
Initial turn-in occurs as you start to turn the wheel and the car starts to turn, it occurs before and (sometimes) at the start of load transfer. It is mainly governed by the front tyre nearest the corner apex; once the load transfer has passed a certain point and the front tyre furthest from the corner apex is handling the majority of the work then we are into true corner entry.

What occurs after this may be constant cornering or corner exit, depending on the nature of the corner itself, again see the corner breakdown section of my first guide.



I only see the oversteer or understeer aspect during those condition, I don't see cornering speed or how the front grip. I will compare how front grip/thrown compare to rear grip/thrown. I see how car create it's course line during cornering.
Then you are acknowledging that you are not able to read everything that the car is doing.



Explain what do you mean by slugish turn-in. What do you think caused this sluggish behaviour? Since I think those sluggish behaviour and poor steering response from 1/8 damper comes from car understeer reaction during load transfer, at condition 1. That is, front tire grip is less than rear tire grip, making turn-in slugish.
As I've said above this is not a factor of load transfer, as initial turn-in is before the transfer occurs. Its a very short lived state, but very important.

Factors that car govern it are dampers, spring rates, toe, tyre width. Camber does not effect it and stabilisers have little or no effect.




My current conclusion for spring rate:
- it will affect the car behaviour during load transfer. softer spring rate will result in more grip during load transfer. Overall soft spring rate setting will have better grip during load transfer.
- when load transfer not happen, stiffer spring rate will increase grip. The grip available with stiffer spring rate will not overcome load transfer loss of grip caused by stiffer spring rate unless extreme front-rear setting is used.

Second point is what I use to accuse that GT4 spring rate is reversed. I will continue to test it.

I just realize that some driving style may never reach condition 2. I realize this after talking to gregc which find my Hyundai Tiburon always understeer.

This is puzzle me, because on condition 2 at least on slow corner it will oversteer, but then I am thinking what if gregc do driving a bit like yours. Driving with carefull throttle control and smooth steering, never do constant steering and constant throttle.

In this condition, my more understeer at condition 1 damper would hurt. My strategy to reduce snap oversteer during throttle will result in more understeer if condition 2 never reached.

The point I have highlighted in bold is not correct, I certainly do use constant steering and throttle if the corner demands it. Its the corner that determines how you need to take it, not the other way around.

I think that the issue in question here is in part the controller you are using, that and a lack of experience and understanding of the forces at work here. You also (as I have pointed out before) a habit of stating that things must work in a set way, rather than understanding that how these forces react and interact with each other is very complex. Even in a game such as GT4 or GPL, not to mention how very much more complex the real world is.

Regards

Scaff
 

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