Autocar say RS4 beats M3 / Evo say M3 beats RS4 Too close to call?

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forza2.0
I disagree. I know guys with ibiza cupras which have 4 pot AP racing brakes as standard that require new pads and discs regularly after some track use and they weigh around 1200-1300kg. As for tyre wear that all depends on the usage. But the heavier a vehicle is the quicker the tyres will wear out and its not like cars such as the M3 will have long life hard compound tyres.

Infact in some reviews they actually mention about how quickly the new m3 eats tyres and fuel.
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While that is of course true lets not forget that the same can be said for the RS4, in fact even with the lighter curb weight the RS4 has worse fuel economy based of UK cycles. You pay a penalty for that 4wd system in both fuel and tyres (I've seen the result of a heavy track-day session on an RS4 and lets just say the tyres were not road legal at the end of it).



forza2.0
All im saying is that in a perfect world the new M3 would remain exactly how it is now minus 300kg. And going by early reviews evidently this new M3 doesnt put as big a smile on testers face as the E46 did.
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And here is the point it gets interesting at, as while Audi appear to be happy to rest with the RS4, its quite clear that a CSL version of the M3 will be following and sooner rather than latter....


Autocar
The story doesn't end there, however. In fact, the final chapter is far from written. Because we know that BMW is already working on a harder, faster M3. A more traditional version of the classic BMW hot rod, if you like. It's called the CSL and unofficially BMW admits that this car will appear a lot sooner in the new M3's lifespan than the previous CSL did.
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...it may simply be that BMW have realised that they now have two types of customer for the M3. Those who want it as a road car first and foremost (and dare I say it for the badge) and those who want the 'espresso' version. I think two things we can all hope for is that the CSL version will have been on a bit of a diet and that Audi's answer will be interesting (and all this without taking Merc into consideration).


Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
While that is of course true lets not forget that the same can be said for the RS4, in fact even with the lighter curb weight the RS4 has worse fuel economy based of UK cycles.
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While I agree with your point, I have to say, though, that the idea of the RS4 being anywhere near as heavy, much less lighter than the M3 (no matter how little the difference is), is absurd; and probably was either an error on Autocar's part or Audi supplied the dry weight instead and Autocar forgot to note it.
 
philly cheese
I definitly see what you mean. As of now, it seems as though the E30 will endure as the "best" M3 in comparison to everything else. I kinda saw that coming once I saw the new car and it's new competition. I just didn't expect the fall of the M3 to be this soon. It will be nice to see an AMG model finally at or near the top, though.
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Fixed.
 
Man... have I missed much in the last few days, or what?

Seeing the reports of Autocar and Car&Driver, I must admit, I'm disappointed that the M-Division seems to have dropped the ball with the M3's steering... though I'd really like to see words from Evo (is it in, yet, Scaff?). Just the fact that Autocar can even begin to compare the two in terms of steering feel is a bad sign, and should be a wake-up call for BMW.

But then again, steering feel is highly dependent on a whole ton of factors. Different gearing, bushings or even tires might give the M3 its mojo back. Maybe 145 section fronts (instead of the absurdly huge 245/40R18s it has now) will do? :lol: Here's to hoping.

RE: weight: I do hope this becomes target number one for all manufacturers in the coming years.

I've been driving a lot of cars in the past two years, and a few things have struck me:

Yes, even with the extra weight, a lot of new cars drive a hell of a lot better than their predecessors.

BUT: New cars which are lighter are still much more "fun" to drive... be they dodgy of steering (Toyota Yaris, Suzuki Alto, Hyundai/Kia... well, all of them) or not. A difference of 200 kilos can make a car feel like a champion... witness the Honda Fit, which drives like a dream, or the Ford Focus racecar I drove a few months back. Subtract weight from the equation on a modern car and you have something that's as nimble as its predecessor while still possessing more stability, suppleness and compliance.

And hopefully, when the M3 CS comes out... with a fixed steering rack, too.

But then, I'm still waiting for BMW to drop the V8 and stick a turbocharged six in the M3. 400 hp 335, anyone? :lol:
 
EVO magazine just dropped onto my door mat and their interpretation of the Audi RS4 vs BMW M3 battle is a little different to that found in autocar.

EVO Magazine
"On the evidence of what we've found in spain we have to conclude that the M3 is the more engaging, more exciting car, yet the audi remains hugely capable, rewarding and enjoyable. A narrow points decision then, and a far cry from the walkover BMW enjoyed with the E46 M3. The M Division must be awaiting the C63 AMG with some apprehension..."
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Thats the paragraph they wrap up the article with and having read the whole test it seems that BMW has beaten Audi once again however this time the margin is cigarette paper thin.

Spec....
 
forza2.0
I disagree. I know guys with ibiza cupras which have 4 pot AP racing brakes as standard that require new pads and discs regularly after some track use and they weigh around 1200-1300kg. As for tyre wear that all depends on the usage. But the heavier a vehicle is the quicker the tyres will wear out and its not like cars such as the M3 will have long life hard compound tyres.
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Key words, "track use", as I said, in the real world, track use is quite low on peoples priorities. Only a small, small perentage of people track thier cars, and an even smaller percentage track them regularly. You'll be changing your tyres and pads a lot on an Elise if you track it regularly. For most people, these things don't need changing that often. That's because most people, infact the vast majority of people don't track thier cars.

All im saying is that in a perfect world the new M3 would remain exactly how it is now minus 300kg. And going by early reviews evidently this new M3 doesnt put as big a smile on testers face as the E46 did.
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The new M3 can't remain exactley as it is minus 300kg, thoes 300kgs account for something that is making the M3 as it is. safety adnd luxury probably accounting for most if not all the added weight over the E46. Once again though I'd like to reiterate my stance, I'm not against light cars, I love them. But I feel that in cars like these, people make a big fuss about weight, when most people will probably never notice.
 
Specialized
EVO magazine just dropped onto my door mat and their interpretation of the Audi RS4 vs BMW M3 battle is a little different to that found in autocar.



Thats the paragraph they wrap up the article with and having read the whole test it seems that BMW has beaten Audi once again however this time the margin is cigarette paper thin.

Spec....
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And that's pretty much how Steved explained the team's test later on, as well. He said they found neither cars to be a winner over the other, but that the BMW was still a bit more of a faster machine than the Audi.
 
Specialized
EVO magazine just dropped onto my door mat and their interpretation of the Audi RS4 vs BMW M3 battle is a little different to that found in autocar.



Thats the paragraph they wrap up the article with and having read the whole test it seems that BMW has beaten Audi once again however this time the margin is cigarette paper thin.

Spec....
Click to expand...

Damn I want my copy of Evo, bloody flooded roads stopping everything getting to Swindon.

Joking aside the weather is now seriously effecting the towns directly to the north and west of my town (which fortunately for me is at a high elevation for this part of the world), with little sign of it slowing down.

However with this kind of thing not to far from me....


1.jpg



...I can wait, at least I'm fortunate enough to be dry.


Regards

Scaff
 
Sorry to hear about those conditions Scaff... Reminds me of Katrina only it looks like there is a bit more clay in your soil. Of course, I'd take clay over needles and garbage any day of the week. :ouch: :lol:

Good luck keeping dry. 👍

Oh btw, I'm just waiting for a more video reviews of these two cars. 👍
If a picture is worth a thousand words and video has thousands of pictures then video must be worth millions of words! :sly:
 
Kent
Sorry to hear about those conditions Scaff... Reminds me of Katrina only it looks like there is a bit more clay in your soil. Of course, I'd take clay over needles and garbage any day of the week. :ouch: :lol:

Good luck keeping dry. 👍

Oh btw, I'm just waiting for a more video reviews of these two cars. 👍
If a picture is worth a thousand words and video has thousands of pictures then video must be worth millions of words! :sly:
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Well spotted, lots of clay around here, which is part of the problem, it makes for poor natural drainage. The higher areas (around Swindon) are at least a bit thinner in the top-soil with a major limestone base which makes for better drainage at least.

While it certainly is bad in parts around here Katrina was much nastier, it happened a lot quicker for you guys and at least we don't have the winds to deal with as well.

I've edited the title of the thread now we have the Evo info in (come on Mr Postie - bring me my EVO tomorrow) to something more appropriate.

Regards

Scaff
 
I need to finish my old Evo first but have just had a drive in a E46 M3 CS earlier this week. I was surprised at how different it was to a regular M3, it felt a lot more hardcore. M division will have their thinking caps on but for me at least their will be an option for the future now they are going to do a M3 wagon.
 
Ouch... swilling in Swindon, eh?

Is it the curse of everyone on the board to get flooded at least once? Lucky for me I saved the car last year, but water cost me my bed! :ouch:

Whatever the test results (heck, on two different days, the two teams could have both come to different conclusions from the ones they've posted), it seems like a win for Audi. Just placing close to the M3 counts as a win, in my book.

And a definite something-something for BMW. Nice that they tried to keep purity by dropping electric steering for hydraulic, but something went missing there, somewhere. I'm of the opinion it's in the rubber, somewhere... both in the rubber that keeps the rack planted on the frame and in the rubber on the road.
 
hm...

well, In other news, the G37 seems to be stomping all over the 335i in comparison tests over on this side of the pond. Makes me wonder what will happen when the GT-R gets introduced into the mix in this category.
 
It depends on who you ask as to whether or not the G37S "stops" on the 335i. This is about as close as close gets, and it largely depends on what kind of car you like, more so, whether or not you are willing to pay a premium for the BMW.

Myself, the performance differences between the two cars are less about acceleration and more about overall "feel" of the two models, and thusly I'd choose the BMW in that situation. But, when you're a badge-snob like me, it can be expected...

===

That being said, your point on the GT-R is a valid one, however, I'm uncertain that it will end up working out that way. While the GT-R in theory would be competing against the M3 and the like, it more or less is being shot at the Porsche 911 and the Chevrolet Corvette both in terms of performance and price. Rumors keep suggesting that the GT-R would retail for $70K or more, at least $10-15K above the "premium" M3, smack-dab in Corvette Z06 territory in the US, about $40K short of a 911 Turbo.

We'll see what happens.
 
BMW seem to be loosing their iron fist. The competition have all had BMW in their sights for a long time now and they are all pulling the trigger with varying degrees of success.
 
Well, an Automobile mag test rated the G37 a little higher, too, if I remember correctly. I'll also agree that Performance-wise they're close, but MT kept having cooling problems with their 335s. (yes, two of them.) On the counterpoint, one might expect that BMW has some bugs to work out on the turbo mill, that's to be expected, since they've been building NA engines for a very long time, hard to get back into the Turbo groove. Still, one wonders how much boost it can handle...

A good point to YSS on the GT-R. It's really not aimed at the M3, but the 911 and 'Vette. Thing is, the M3 used to be aimed at those cars, too. Particularly the 911, at least in GT racing, if not the Carrera models on the street.
 
Jim Prower
Well, an Automobile mag test rated the G37 a little higher, too, if I remember correctly.
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That I'll buy (though still disagree with), because that means essentially that the G37 wins in a large way due to price. But Motor Trend walked away essentially saying that the G37 wiped the floor with the 335Ci in many categories, and the car's quality simply is not up to the level enough to do so. Both in interior qaulity and drivetrain refinement. The G37 is slower, less refined and less smooth. I would even argue that it isn't even as good as the G35 coupe was, for the same reasons the new IS isn't as good as the old one was.
 
I can't recall the M3 ever being aimed at the 911 at least as far as BMW were concerned. A couple of mags may some point in time have compared the two for some reason, but the M3 I can't recall any time it's been marketed as a 911 competitor which the GT-R is being marketed very much as.
 
Im not too sure it is a close market. Usually people upgrade from M3's to 911's but BMW did say they had the V8 vantage in their sights when they were making the new M3.
 
Did they? I don't remember that. Do you have a link? If they said that, then the new M3 is clearly supposed to tearget the 911 too. In which case it fails. Badly. It's grerat for it's class, but it's performance and price is not in 911 or V8 Vantage territory.
 
Dave A
Did they? I don't remember that. Do you have a link? If they said that, then the new M3 is clearly supposed to tearget the 911 too. In which case it fails. Badly. It's grerat for it's class, but it's performance and price is not in 911 or V8 Vantage territory.
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Sorry I dont have a link as I read about it about a year or so ago. However BMW have said this new M3 is their fastest ever and I presume this includes the E46 CSL so that should mean it would atleast outperform the V8 Vantage.
 
Dave A
It's grerat for it's class, but it's performance and price is not in 911 or V8 Vantage territory.
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I dunno about that. Its performance exceeds both that of the Carrera S and the V8 Vantage (at least on paper), and while the normal E36 was always a Boxster S fighter, the CSL was much closer to the Carrera than anything else.
This E92 may not be a viable 911 alternative at the moment, but I'm sure the obviously forthcoming CSL will be, both in price and in performance.
 
Well the last gen M3 lapped the TopGear track in 1'31.8 in the dry and the last gen Carrera S lapped it in 1:28.9 in the dry and the Boxster S got 1:28.8 in the dry. The current Carrera S is no doubt, faster than the last one, so yeah, the M3 is and always has been in a lower bracket. The CSL, well that's another matter, performance wise at least., marketability might cross swords with the 911 in some areas but I think the 911 Carrera S buyer isn't after a stripped out M3. The V8 Vantage hasn't to my knowledge lapped the TopGear track but it did beat the E46 M3's time round the Ring by 19 seconds. Granted the new M3 will be a lot closer, but there is a difference.

Paper figures rarely tell the whole story. The M3 is a fast, but theres a reason it isn't £80,000.
 
The closest we're going to come to the M3 based on shape, size, power, and weight will likely be the VZ Monaro, whenever Holden gets on it, but it may be a while. Only difference would be that it would be about half the price, weigh a little bit more, probably have a few extra ponies as well in SS-V or HSV trim.
 
Specialized
Thats the paragraph they wrap up the article with and having read the whole test it seems that BMW has beaten Audi once again however this time the margin is cigarette paper thin.

Spec....
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Well, thanks for spoiling it for me ;), but even as a loss, that seems like a victory for Audi as a company. To have been a distant 2nd (or 3rd) for many years, to being considered a strong alternative is a leap forward for any brand. As long as the E92 proves to be better than the E46, this means that Audi has improved more this time around than BMW did.
 

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