Mad FinnTuners Co.™ - Finished 301010 with GT-Rdammerung - BIG THANKS everyone!

What? Leo, you changed Mister Black's settings? The initial settings were so wonderful, I can't imagine that you've done anything but worsen the car. Of course, I had to try it out.

To start with, though, we need to remember exactly what made the first Mister Black such an excellent tune. The cornering speeds were astronomical compared to the stock tune; around Trial Mountain, the tuned and untuned versions of the car were in entirely different classes. The untuned MR-2 was a hooligan in the corners: On the brakes, the whole thing pitched forward with the enthusiasm of a puppy, the throttle made theToyota rear up on its hind legs and head straight on into the outside wall, S-turns nearly flipped the damn thing over, and the body roll in steady cornering challenged the driver's knowledge of the course, his vision obscured. The tune eliminated all of these problems, house-training the puppy, making it taut through the turns, swift due to the improved gear ratios, and controllable as well. Just enough of the weight transfer was left, allowing too-late braking to be countered with lift-off oversteer. Wonderful, if I'm honest.

The subtle suspension alterations you made changed the feel of the car a bit. Noticable weight transfer was completely gone, and the car is now completely civilized, an autocross course would be honoured to have such a precise instrument running over it. If you brake too late, there is a tiny amount of lift-off oversteer, not even noticable in regular racing. It comes instantly, at full strength, then doesn't exceed this amount at all, undoubtedly due to the effects of increased demand and camber. The saving effects of lift-off oversteer are tiny, but the fact is simple: Making mistakes with this takes talent. The steering recalls brain surgery, its improved (and incredible) precision emphasized by the lack of weight transfer. It felt, instantly, that the car knew exactly what to do; It felt like the car had more talent than me! In a ghost battle, it seems that cornering speeds are either unchanged or dropped slightly (2 mph, maximum), but cornering is much more exquisite and precise with the slight change. However, the advertised oversteer of this car is conspicuously absent. It has been replaced by precision, which is more than enough.

Somehow, Leo, you've actually managed to improve your heroic MR-2. Excellent, excellent job.

Also, ________, I tested your __________. I'm slightly dissappointed that the tuned version of the car isn't very different from the stock version of the car. __________s are well-behaved, swift cars, and you've tuned your version of it to be slightly faster and slightly more well-behaved. Don't misunderstand me, I prefer the tuned version to the stock tune--you've been wise with the transmission tuning, corners pass a beat quicker, and the lift-off oversteer of the ordinary __________ has been reduced to a better amount--but I miss the sense of complete transformation that I've found in other tuned cars from you. If you have the car and parts, by all means, apply the settings, but it's not worth buying and tuning the rather expensive __________ just for the settings.

Fill in blanks with either [Greycap, NSX] or [Leonidae, Volkswagen R32].

It can't be Wolf, that was a great car in my opinion.

Edit: I'm sure you remember what I said about the Clio in TC Greycap, if it has been improved since then let me know and I'll see what I think. It was a good car that would have been the best on twisty tracks and very good FF car.

Sounds pretty much like my NSX R1, expensive and mildly tuned.

That one was never even meant to be a full transformation, more like an attempt to take out all possible flaws in the original car while still keeping it as an NSX in the feeling department. Consider it as a similar concept for the NSX as the Amuse S2000 R1 is for the stock S2000 and it seems a lot more logical. Easier to drive, slightly (well, several seconds) faster, just a "refinement tuning".

EA11R

What? Leo, you changed Mister Black's settings? The initial settings were so wonderful, I can't imagine that you've done anything but worsen the car. Of course, I had to try it out.

To start with, though, we need to remember exactly what made the first Mister Black such an excellent tune. The cornering speeds were astronomical compared to the stock tune; around Trial Mountain, the tuned and untuned versions of the car were in entirely different classes. The untuned MR-2 was a hooligan in the corners: On the brakes, the whole thing pitched forward with the enthusiasm of a puppy, the throttle made theToyota rear up on its hind legs and head straight on into the outside wall, S-turns nearly flipped the damn thing over, and the body roll in steady cornering challenged the driver's knowledge of the course, his vision obscured. The tune eliminated all of these problems, house-training the puppy, making it taut through the turns, swift due to the improved gear ratios, and controllable as well. Just enough of the weight transfer was left, allowing too-late braking to be countered with lift-off oversteer. Wonderful, if I'm honest.

The subtle suspension alterations you made changed the feel of the car a bit. Noticable weight transfer was completely gone, and the car is now completely civilized, an autocross course would be honoured to have such a precise instrument running over it. If you brake too late, there is a tiny amount of lift-off oversteer, not even noticable in regular racing. It comes instantly, at full strength, then doesn't exceed this amount at all, undoubtedly due to the effects of increased demand and camber. The saving effects of lift-off oversteer are tiny, but the fact is simple: Making mistakes with this takes talent. The steering recalls brain surgery, its improved (and incredible) precision emphasized by the lack of weight transfer. It felt, instantly, that the car knew exactly what to do; It felt like the car had more talent than me! In a ghost battle, it seems that cornering speeds are either unchanged or dropped slightly (2 mph, maximum), but cornering is much more exquisite and precise with the slight change. However, the advertised oversteer of this car is conspicuously absent. It has been replaced by precision, which is more than enough.

Somehow, Leo, you've actually managed to improve your heroic MR-2. Excellent, excellent job.

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Thank you. I had noticed that Mr. Connery had become bit sloppy on the road, so I had him run through the full agent training again, polishing him into best possible 007-quality. Q might be able to sleep better from this on, no more wrecked rides after Bond..

why do you compare the MR-2 with Sean Connery? ^^ i think i'll try the Clio, because i don't really like the old Hondas. no hard feelings Leo........

viper

Because I feel that this MR2 I've built is a pure British gentleman, just like Sean Connery.

alright, i see Leo!

here is my review of the Renault Clio 2.0 Sport:

i have to say, that i never thought that a car with 205HP can move like this. the car really surprised me with it's handling and acceleration. i really liked the car around Suzuka, where i did some testing. there was mild understeer under higher speeds, but not much, also no real wheelspin. the only thing that disturbed me was the low v-max. the car redlines @ about 200km/h, and v-max is @ about 220km/h. maybe you could re-work the gearbox a bit Greycap?
a really nice little car, not fast, but amusing.........have fun!

viper

nd 4 holden spd - It's the exactly same car, only the description has been rewritten to better suit the style of our other cars. To this day I haven't really understood the excessive front body roll comment you made on it but whatever, it's probably another driving style thing.

viperpilot - Thanks for that! I could, but I wouldn't like to do that. The power is so low that making the gears taller would lead to a much bigger acceleration loss than a top speed gain, relatively speaking that is. But if you want to give it a shot, be my guest! Try final drive ratios of 3.500 or 3.750 and it should have a bit more speed reserve on the straights.

nd 4 holden spd

I'm honest though, we could do lap times if you want.......I'll take the CR-X.

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True...I wanted the CRX but whatever. I'll try to beat you in a fugly car!

I'll get some times up about 8:30 eastern, I'll just PM you.

Hey, Grey, maybe I could be of help in the gearing department?

If you would like, I'd be happy to do a regear for you on the Clio after I get two request cars out of the way.

And I'll get a review to ya on the car itself as well.

I appreciate the offer but the gearing thing is something that can't be made perfect, there's the big problem. If the car is driven on Autumn Ring, it's already too tall. If it's driven on the Nürburgring, it's too short. I usually provide a gearing that maxes out at just about the end of the GVS main straight as it's one of the longest full throttle sections in the entire game and this one meets that criteria too.

Some people have fiddled with the transmissions for runs on fast tracks with good results, maybe it should be mentioned in the setup sheet that the ratios provided are a good base but may need tweaking for certain tracks?

nd 4 holden spd & mustangGT90210 - I've lost track of what you're trying to do but PM's are indeed the way to go here.

Greycap

nd 4 holden spd - It's the exactly same car, only the description has been rewritten to better suit the style of our other cars. To this day I haven't really understood the excessive front body roll comment you made on it but whatever, it's probably another driving style thing.

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I'm not sure if this is the same sense he got, but as I just posted in my FF judging, I liked how soft it was in the front under braking, but the rebound was so extreme that it felt like the front lifted too hard during the transition from brake to throttle. Also, as the front of the body rolled to the outside of a corner on turn-in, the weight settled on a wheel whose toe setting aimed it wide of the apex rather than into it. This, for me, manifested as a sudden yank to the wide side of the line. The brake balance helped counteract that though, it seemed.

I LOVED the car - it feels like trying to wrestle a particularly pissed-off bronco into submission, and when you do it, it thanks you for it!

Greycap

nd 4 holden spd & mustangGT90210 - I've lost track of what you're trying to do but PM's are indeed the way to go here.

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We're going to vs the Clio against the CR-X, you'd already have lap times but we will see what we get anyway because the cars are so close.

I did very much appreciate the tunes done on the NSX by Greycap and on the Golf R32 by Leonidae, I just wasn't floored by them. The tuned cars were pleasant to drive, just not astonishing to drive. I just did the 'fill in the blanks' approach because it was fun, and because I realized that my thoughts on the cars really were identical.

Actually, though, I just thought of a way to (perhaps) improve the Golf. You told us to buy a racing transmission, but not change any of the gear ratios at all. However, a racing transmission's stock ratios are exactly the same as a stock transmission's ratios, so why not delete the racing transmission altogether? It would lower the build price of the car by $10,000 and would seem more impressive to an outside observer (Impressive because it seems like you're working with a minimum to produce an equally refined product). Or maybe there's something that I don't know about this and is throwing off my reasoning?

I drove the Renault Clio when it was just an entry in the Tuner Garages thread, and liked it very much.

In untuned form, it had all the usual issues which accompany untuned cars: joyless and slow cornering due to excessive weight transfer, gear ratios with a top speed that is horribly wrong for the car, and a lack of actual cornering pace even when the--at this point quite irritated--driver manages to work around the tilt-a-whirl suspension. This one, though, adds one more flaw to the failure cocktail: the low weight means that a driver could charge into a corner and coast through, relying on the forward weight transfer, *but* coasting has the same anti-inertial effects as braking. The low cornering speeds and low straightaway thrust add up to a top speed (on a typical racecourse, mind you) of about 12.

After the tuning, weight transfer was quelled to MFT's expectably high standards, transmission ratios began to be one with the car, and cornering speeds and controllability improved quite drastically. It felt taut and eager in the turns, and the high handling/thrust ratio of the car allows and rewards an unbraking driving style. The car has little power, so the secret in corners is to slow down as little as possible, then to rely on the car's momentum to supply optimal exit speed. But even in this quite insane method of turning, this car rewards an even more startling driving method: braking too little, coasting at mach speed (remember, coasting in this car causes rapid deceleration, but without the understeer associated with braking) to the apex, then accelerating out as usual. Wheelspin is only attainable while airborne or when in first gear (but with these cornering speeds, it never is), so the car feels friendly and safe to drive with pants of fire, and this forgiving character (Somehow, this is impossible to misdrive) belies the actual speeds that are being attained. Sure, there are clues: The graffitti on the pavement blurs into an unintelligible blob, the numbers on the speedometer seem quite high, perhaps the RX-7 of the day grows small in the rearview mirror. But the car decieves, "Don't worry, the RX-7 broke down, those numbers are in km/h, that graffitti is always an unitelligible blob." The true velocity only begins to show after a lap around a course, the undeniable lap times are simply astonishing.

I have only one complaint: when tossed into a corner too quickly, the car exhibits what I call 'FF wobble.' The rear wheels slip for an instant, then regain grip, rotating the front wheels outwards, which then jerk back in the direction of the road, regain grip, rip the rear wheels out of line, and speed is completely lost. Once again, it subtracts from the 'complete transformation' that I hope to find in a tuned car, but this isn't too important, as driving skill avoids it. But, I still prefer 'FF Wobble' to 'FR Dizziness' or '4WD WhichWallShallItBe?'

In other words, this car improves drastically as the driver does marginally. Likewise, it supplies incredible pace very easily, doesn't rely on tires or downforce to attain its incredible cornering speed, its smallness means that it's very practical in an actual race, the moderate amount of power upgrades means that the power of the car can be adapted to the requirements of a specific race, and its complete unwillingness to oversteer out of control means that no amount of shoddy AI racing can stop it from running quickly. There's only one way it isn't practical as a racer (FFs' tires don't do well in races with tire wear), but no amount of tuning could counter this. Thus, the Clio earns a brilliant 10/10!

no worries about the gears Greycap, i just wanted to ask! very good car anyways!

viper

News flash!

As a pair of Christmas specials we'll be launching two cars that break our only rule for the cars to be chosen. One on the Christmas Eve for those who celebrate then, and one on the Christmas day for those who celebrate then. Relatively little power and lots of handling will be the word of the day.

And then the counter comments... not for all but every post has been read.

CraftyLandShark - I'm inclined to think that the front isn't lifting because of the dampers. Strong damper rebound actually tries to prevent the force of the springs throwing the nose up. It's just that a short and tall car has lots of weight transfer and it all can't be taken out, especially if it gives a good handling when decelerating. It's a compromise. But thanks for the review, do you have anything you'd need to be tuned? 👍

EA11R - I'm not trying to quote anything of that... I'll just thank you for a thorough review! Last time you said you didn't want to bother me with another request but you can bet that you deserve one for this.

I gave the CRX of Leonidae a try last night, and I rather liked it:

Untuned, the CRX was actually quite fun to drive. There was, indeed, quite a bit of weight transfer, but the cornering itself was very rapid. In medium-speed turns, the throttle oversteer was fun to play with, but the wheelspin never got out of control, nor did the tires ever 'let go,' as they often tend to do when throttling FFs sideways. The gearing was a bit too high, but the acceleration was suprisingly potent. When I actually tried to drive quickly, though, all this fun got in the way. The weight transfer in high-speed cornering made the car's behaviour very nervous, and the pace slackened when I either oversteered or drove too cautiously. When you've committed to tossing it through a corner sideways, things are simple, but if the car isn't completely sideways, it isn't sure whether or not it wants to go sideways, and often moves oddly. And the main problem is that there isn't too much area between the two errors of cornering. It's fun, but not an instrument of victory.

With the settings applied, the acceleration was the first thing I noticed. It, for some reason that I can't fathom, accelerates like a rocket. It may have less torque than the Clio, but much, much more forward progress is made. In the corners, the tune is more confident than the stock version, and high-speed corners are no longer a weakness. At low speeds, as you promised, power oversteer was still available on demand, though admittedly in smaller portions. A touch of the trusty handbrake allows almost effortless oversteer at any speed, upping the fun by leaps and bounds. And, even though there is less oversteer than before, the improved transmission brings the pace up well enough to oversteer nonetheless.

However, it would have been quicker with a tighter suspension, and more fun with a less mature suspension. It seems you've tried to make another multi-purpose car, like the RX-7 you published a few pages back. But, where the Mazda was neither very fun nor fast, this hatchback is both! With considerable clowning around, it lapped the Nurburgring only 4 seconds slower than the serious, business-type Clio tune that Greycap did. I don't know what has changed since the RX-7, but you've cracked it: a car that is both a playful drifter and a quick runner.

It's an entirely different car from the wonderful Clio that Greycap publlished, but I can appreciate it along with its opposite. However, I don't know what, exactly it is, but I just didn't fall in love with it. I respect the tune very much, and the car is enjoyable, but it's just lacking something... Maybe I should have bought genuine Spoon wheels in the used wheel store, I don't know. Maybe it's just that it still isn't entirely devoted to one pursuit, even though it does do well at both. Either way, the car gets a still very respectable 8.75/10.

Also, a public service announcement: I know that the word 'drift' was tossed around quite a bit in this review, but use a bit of logic: It's an FF hot hatch. There will be no sweepers or hairpins here, just brief, high-angle oversteer. That said, it's still quite fun!

I'm glad that you found the ride very entertaining. With this CR-X, I had my first attempt in months with an FF car, and I wasn't quite sure what to do or what to expect it. The thing that got me to choose this car was the very low weight, even among Honda's. I myself found the ridiculous amount of oversteer unrealistic, and as you noticed, this car still has a bit of that playfulness left when needed.

But in general, my aim was to do a car to counter Greycap's Clio with similar performance. I guess that the low weight evens out the lack of torque. Other thing that was odd in this car was the torque bad, which is very flat all over the revs. that might explain the feeling of eager acceleration. it could be geared bit more agressively, but that would lead to wheelspin and understeer in some occasions. no pain no gain.. but if you wish, I can try and tune this car to your liking.. Tighter suspension and slippery in corners if you wish.

Greycap

News flash!

As a pair of Christmas specials we'll be launching two cars that break our only rule for the cars to be chosen. One on the Christmas Eve for those who celebrate then, and one on the Christmas day for those who celebrate then. Relatively little power and lots of handling will be the word of the day.

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I'm guessing that means race cars.......I'm listening. Oh man christmas eve is 2 days away, I don't know if I can wait that long.

you don't have a much of a choice, do you?

Leonidae

you don't have a much of a choice, do you?

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Oh hah hah, very funny. This is cruelty to animals you know, (yes I am a pig)

I thought you're a kangaroo..

j/k

Leonidae

I thought you're a kangaroo..

j/k

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Not all Australians achieve that status, maybe I'm more of a big fat ugly croc with my tendency to be a grouchy wise guy. Anyway, looking forward to your next cars, when does the guessing what they are begin I wonder?

I'll guess that they've done either some of the very fastest racecars in the game, or that they've erred on the side of caution and done road race cars, like the Gathers Civic or the Spoon Fit. Either way, I am, indeed, very eager to see what they've chosen.

Hopefully not the Nissan Le Mans, though. Greycap has basically already done that car, just with less stickers and more front-biased downforce.

I hope they put out a pair of group C's for christmas.

(And I REALLY hope it's an R8 tune. Then I'll face off against a Sauber)

mustangGT90210

I hope they put out a pair of group C's for christmas.

(And I REALLY hope it's an R8 tune. Then I'll face off against a Sauber)

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You need a tune to beat a Sauber?? What, got distracted there for a second. No they said it would be a lower horsepower vehicle that breaks their rule so I'm guessing some JGTC cars from the lower power class as they are underdone by anyone and might be more interesting to people, cars like the Wedsport Celica and ASL Garaiya and Toyota MR2 Autobacs.👍

i'm also curious, which race-cars we all get as a present! wait and see.........

viper

N4HS is actually quite close.. but you'll see them tomorrow.

here is my review of the EVO IV TME:

stock the car was really a pleasure to drive, nice handling, a lot of oversteer, and a quite nice acceleration.
tuned this car is really a blast! you can't believe, that there are "only" 295HP pushing the EVO forward. the handling is even better, with nice oversteer on first two gears through corners, thanks to the AYC! and the acceleration is better because of the close gearing. i only altered the 5th and 6th gear for a bit more v-max, but the MFT-gearing really fits with the car!
i really liked the old EVO, and i really can recommend this car, even for rally-stages. very nice and predictable on gravel, well done! 👍

viper