Basilea's Tuning Garage - MAY 23rd - VW W12 Nardo Concept '01

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Basilea

Basilea

703


When I first started this thread I posted 2 "tunes" of cars I used in the seasonals and I easily won the events. The cars were overpowered and I needed to limit power or add ballast, what made the cars feel easy to handle and "balanced". I didn't even test the tunes without power restriction and this was of course a mistake. When I tried them without power restriction, I suddenly felt how bad the settings were and started all over from scratch.​

Faehre_Muenster980_184-2-1.jpg


Now I only tune cars that I really like and not just have to choose for a seasonal. After I am happy with a set up I post it here and hope that I get some feedback. I take it that the first tunes won't be the best, but only with practise I get better at tuning.


All tunes will be done with a DFGT and I won't test them with a DS3. I tend to tune in offline practise mode, but probably go online for some testing as well. Most car will be tuned on Racing Softs and if I like to I try to make the tunes work on Sport Softs as well. On which tyres a specific car is tuned can be seen in the Tuning Shop section of each tune. All tyre types above the "weakest" should work.

My driving style is rather aggressive! I tend to brake late (often a bit too late ;)) and fully smash the throttle as soon as possible.
​





Tunes:​


ABS 1, ALL OTHER DRIVING AIDS OFF​



 
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Among others, the tunes will be set up to a big part on Fuji Speedway because it has an exceptional long straight. There are only 3 longer straights in GT5 (Nürburgring, La Sarthe and SSR7) and the time gained there, with higher top speed settings, is very small and can be catched up with better acceleration on the remaining track. Only on SSR7 the top speed can be significantly too low. However in my opinion, SSR7 is not a gamers favourite (only for drag racing) and I haven't seen many rooms since PD fixed the money glitch, what makes it irrelevant. Besides the long straight, Fuji Speedway has a good range of different corners and high, medium and low speed sectors.

Transparent_Fuji_Speedway_Logo_neu-1.png

Aside from Fuji Speedway I take the car to at least 1-2 other tracks to get a overall impression. These tracks will be different from tune to tune and most likely include a bumpy course, for example Trail Mountain, Deep Forest or Autumn Ring.​
 
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I started the game with the Honda Civic Type R (EK) ‘97 and soon won the Mugen Motul, my favourite car for quite some time. It's a very fun car to drive and can gold several events, even in higher classes with ease and therefore truly deserves to be my first released tuned.​
Honda MUGEN MOTUL CIVIC Si Race Car '87

Drivetrain: FF--Weight: 890kg--Power: 225kW @ 8800RPM--Torque: 257NM @ 6300RPM--Redline: 9300RPM--PP: 491

AutumnRing_7-2.jpg



GT Auto

Oil Change--|--Overhaul Engine (optional)--|--Restore Body Rigidity (optional)
​





Tuning Shop​


Body/Chassis:
Rigidity Improvement​

Engine:
Engine Tuning Stage 3​

Intake System:
-​

Exhaust:
-​

Turbo Kits:
-​

Transmission:
-​

Drivetrain:
Fully Custonisable LSD​

Suspension:
-​


Tyres:
Sport Softs, Racing Softs​




AutumnRing-2.jpg
NrburgringNordschleife_8-2.jpg


Settings


Body/Chassis

Aero Parts
Aerodynamics
Downforce.................................................................l15|10

Weight Adjustment
Ballast
Amount.........................................................................ll0
Position..........................................................................0


Engine

Power Limiter
Power Level..................................................................100%


Transmission

Fully Customisable Transmission
Max Speed (km/h).........................................................300
Final Gear...................................................................ll3.882

1st Gear......................................................................l2.780
2nd Gear.....................................................................l1.919
3rd Gear.....................................................................ll1.484
4th Gear.....................................................................ll1.189
5th Gear.....................................................................ll0.974


Drivetrain

Fully Customisable LSD
Initial Torque..............................................................lll8|-
Acceleration Sensitivity...............................................-16|-
Braking Sensitivity.........................................................5|-


Fully Custumisable Suspension

Suspension
Ride Height Adjustment (mm)......................................-ll-25|-20
Spring Rate (kgf/mm)................................................llll8.9|4.7
Dampers (Extension)......................................................7|5
Dampers (Compression).................................................ll5|5
Anti-Roll Bars...............................................................l2|4

Wheel Alignment
Camber Angle (-)......................................................lll1.8|1.2
Toe Angle.............................................................--0.15|-0.05


Brakes

Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance.............................................................lll5|7
​
These events give you a great A-Spec competition with this car!
GT World Championship: Nürburgring Nordschleife (Sport Softs take care that you don't get overtaken by all on the last long straight /Racing Softs for win)
Tuning Car Grand Prix: Grand Valley Speedway​
 
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Nissan GT-R SpecV '09(Super Black)

The GT-R SpecV 09' either you love it or you hate it. I really love this car and there isn't more to be said.​



Specifications

Drivetrain:......4WD
Weight:..........1362kg
Power:..........-647kW @ 7400RPM
Torque:.........-898NM @ 6400RPM
Redline:........lll8400RPM
PP:...............lll648
​


DeepForestRaceway_17-1.jpg




Tuning Shop.............................................................GT Auto


Body/Chassis:......Chassis Weight Reduction Stage 1+2+3,.............lllOil Change
..........................-Rigidity Improvement, Window Weight..................Overhaul Engine (optional)
..........................-Reduction, Carbon Bonnet (Body Colour)..............lRestore Body Rigidity (optional)
............................................................................................-Wheels RAYS VR.G2 (Black)
Engine:................lEngine Tuning Stage 1+2+3,.............................-Front Type A
..........................-Sports ECU...................................................llRear Type A
............................................................................................-Extension Type A
Intake System:....llSports Intake Manifold, Racing Air Filter...............lWing Type A

Exhaust:.............lllTitanium Racing Exhaust, Sports Exhaust......
..........................-Manifold, Catalytic Converter: Sports..........l

Turbo Kits:............High RPM Turbo Kit

Transmission:......llFully Customisable Transmission

Drivetrain:...........llTwin Plate Clutch, Semi Racing Flywheel,
..........................-Carbon Propeller Shaft

Suspension:........lllFully Customisable Kit

Tyres:.................-Sport Softs, Racing Softs
​




DeepForestRaceway_21-1.jpg
FujiSpeedwayF_3-1.jpg




Settings


Body/Chassis

Aero Parts
Aerodynamics
Downforce...................................................................2|17

Weight Adjustment
Ballast
Amount.........................................................................ll0
Position..........................................................................0


Engine

Power Limiter
Power Level..................................................................100%


Transmission

Fully Customisable Transmission
Max Speed (km/h).........................................................350
Final Gear...................................................................ll3.159

1st Gear......................................................................l3.437
2nd Gear.....................................................................l2.359
3rd Gear.....................................................................ll1.777
4th Gear.....................................................................ll1.391
5th Gear.....................................................................ll1.127
6th Gear.....................................................................ll0.933


Drivetrain

Standard Differential
Stock Differential

Driver Controlled Centre Differential
Stock Torque Split


Fully Custumisable Suspension

Suspension
Ride Height Adjustment (mm)......................................-ll-18|-15
Spring Rate (kgf/mm)...............................................lll16.0|9.3
Dampers (Extension)......................................................7|5
Dampers (Compression).................................................ll5|5
Anti-Roll Bars...............................................................l3|5

Wheel Alignment
Camber Angle (-)......................................................lll2.2|1.7
Toe Angle..............................................................lll0.12|-0.08


Brakes

Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance.............................................................lll6|5
​
 
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Volkswagen W12 Nardo Concept ‘01

When I first drove this car it wasn't really what I expected. The rear was very unstable on exits and it didn't fit my driving style, as I like to smash the throttle on exit. Now, this is almost no issue anymore! I tried to tune it on Sport Softs but it would have taken another week or so and I drive on Racing Softs most of the time anyways.​



Specifications

Drivetrain:......MR
Weight:..........1290kg
Power:..........-618kW @ 7300RPM
Torque:.........-834NM @ 6300RPM
Redline:........lll8800RPM
PP:...............lll650
​


AutumnRing_5-1.jpg




Tuning Shop.............................................................GT Auto


Body/Chassis:......Rigidity Improvement, Window Weight..................Oil Change
..........................-Reduction .....................................................Overhaul Engine (optional)
..........................-...................................................................Restore Body Rigidity (optional)
Engine:................lEngine Tuning Stage 1+2+3

Intake System:....ll-

Exhaust:..............l-

Turbo Kits:............-

Transmission:......llFully Customisable Transmission

Drivetrain:............Fully Customisable LSD

Suspension:........lllFully Customisable Kit

Tyres:.................-Racing Softs
​




AutumnRing_7-1.jpg
SuzukaCircuit_12-1.jpg




Settings


Body/Chassis

Aero Parts
Aerodynamics
Downforce...................................................................15|35

Weight Adjustment
Ballast
Amount.........................................................................ll0
Position..........................................................................0


Engine

Power Limiter
Power Level..................................................................100%


Transmission

Fully Customisable Transmission
Max Speed (km/h).........................................................420
Final Gear...................................................................ll3.203

1st Gear......................................................................l3.670
2nd Gear.....................................................................l2.586
3rd Gear.....................................................................ll1.923
4th Gear.....................................................................ll1.481
5th Gear.....................................................................ll1.185
6th Gear.....................................................................ll0.981


Drivetrain

Fully Customisable LSD
Initial Torque..............................................................lll-|9
Acceleration Sensitivity..................................................-|18
Braking Sensitivity.........................................................-|6


Fully Custumisable Suspension

Suspension
Ride Height Adjustment (mm)......................................-ll-40|-20
Spring Rate (kgf/mm)...............................................lll13.4|14.3
Dampers (Extension)......................................................5|7
Dampers (Compression).................................................ll4|4
Anti-Roll Bars...............................................................l3|2

Wheel Alignment
Camber Angle (-)......................................................lll2.3|1.9
Toe Angle.............................................................--0.08|0.16


Brakes

Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance.............................................................lll7|5
​
 
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Oh a VW Nardo! One of my favorite cars.
I'll give it a go and let you know how it feels. (But I think you've to wait till wednesday, sorry)
 
dr_slump
Oh a VW Nardo! One of my favorite cars.
I'll give it a go and let you know how it feels. (But I think you've to wait till wednesday, sorry)
Click to expand...

No time for my Nardo yet?

As for a next tune I'm still not sure what car it will be, but I guess I start tuning on Racing Softs only because the settings for most cars don't work out for Sports Softs and Racing Softs (mainly because of the LSD). Surprisingly my first 2 tunes are working fairly well on both types of tyres...
 
Basilea
Volkswagen W12 Nardo Concept ‘01​
Click to expand...
Well, you did a very good job with it.
The tune is very stable in every situation and much more controllable. The traction increased dramatically and the oversteer issue is gone.
In my opinion it understeers a little bit too much, especially on high speed corners. The front wing doesn't seem to help enough. But this isn't a big problem. On the contrary, the characteristic is exactly what the most of the players need to be fast.

Oh and the brakes of this car are really bad (but this is not the fault of your tune)

I think this tune is for 80% of all drivers the best Nardo Setup they can get.
 
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dr_slump
Well, you did a very good job with it.
The tune is very stable in every situation and much more controllable. The traction increased dramatically and the oversteer issue is gone.
In my opinion it understeers a bit too much, especially on high speed corners. The front wing doesn't seem to help enough.

Oh and the brakes are really bad (but this is not the fault of your tune)

I think this tune is for 80% of all drivers the best Nardo Setup they can get.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the review 👍 I feel flattered...

I know what you mean with not enough oversteer for you, driving your M3 a lot lately (for a 2 cars, 3 tracks, 4 tunes kind of a review) and it oversteer the most of the tunes and in my opinion slightly too much...
 
A short question to all looking in this thread, is the layout good for you? Because if I change the screen size everything looks different. Would you say I should change it? I hate the little possibilities the forum gives us for layout things :grumpy: Not even tabs are possible...
 
VW W12 Nardo Concept '01
Test Track: Deep Forest Raceway​

The Nardo caught my eye the instant I saw it in the Used Car Dealership. Possibly because it was orange, maybe because it shares a similarity with my favorite car in the world; The Saleen S7, or maybe it was just because it's the opposite of any VolksWagen I've ever seen in my life. Regardless I snatched it up and took it to the track and it didn't fail to deliver. The car had some issues but for being a 'street' car it was rather competitive in the online world. At the time tunes were lacking and even today are scarce. Luckily for me, another tune recently popped up and it reminded me of my old friend the Nardo, who had long since been collecting dust in my garage.

Let me start off by saying, I have no intention of using this car at any crazy high HP rating. It's only real use in my garage is to look pretty and to be whored out in the occasional 'street cars only' online rooms, which I usually avoid. Even being a concept, I usually get away with using this car and it's not very common which is another aspect I like. I prefer not to be in the same car as everyone else on the track. So my Nardo does not have any Engine Upgrades performed. Since all 3 of the tunes were initially designed to have them, I suppose that means they're all at the same disadvantage and I can call it a level playing field... But who wants to fight fair anyways.

Last but not least, the most recent of the Nardo tunes. Published just over a week ago, in a garage that was opened only 2 months ago. Before even applying Basilea's settings, I'm already worried. A large amount of rake in the vehicle (20) will create understeer, then a positive rear toe which adds more stability and then for the 3rd tune in a row, negative front toe, when I feel this car would benefit from positive toe. But we'll let the lap times do the talking, so here it goes.

As I predicted, Basilea's tune ended up being the most understeering of all 3 so far. I did still manage to best the Defaults lap times, but not by much. I will say, however, that Basilea's tune is very controlled and stable the entire way around the track. Very safe for long runs, but when it comes to running fast laps, it just couldn't get through the corners as tightly or as quickly as the other tunes tested thus far. This car seems to have a lot of grip for what it is and the above tunes used the high Accel setting on the LSD to help the car in sweeping turns. Unfortunately for Basilea, the conservative LSD settings on a track filled with sweeping turns ended up back firing. The excessive rake also seems to be another large fault of this tune. This tune was the smoothest of all 3, which helped make it the most consistent, but unfortunately was not the fastest and for my personal driving style, suffered from far too much understeer.
Best 3 laps:
1:08.006
1:07.984
1:07.932


Full Comparison Here: Adrenaline Tune Reviews
 
Adrenaline
VW W12 Nardo Concept '01
Test Track: Deep Forest Raceway​

So my Nardo does not have any Engine Upgrades performed. Since all 3 of the tunes were initially designed to have them, I suppose that means they're all at the same disadvantage and I can call it a level playing field... But who wants to fight fair anyways.

Last but not least, the most recent of the Nardo tunes. Published just over a week ago, in a garage that was opened only 2 months ago. Before even applying Basilea's settings, I'm already worried. A large amount of rake in the vehicle (20) will create understeer, then a positive rear toe which adds more stability and then for the 3rd tune in a row, negative front toe, when I feel this car would benefit from positive toe. But we'll let the lap times do the talking, so here it goes.

As I predicted, Basilea's tune ended up being the most understeering of all 3 so far. I did still manage to best the Defaults lap times, but not by much. I will say, however, that Basilea's tune is very controlled and stable the entire way around the track. Very safe for long runs, but when it comes to running fast laps, it just couldn't get through the corners as tightly or as quickly as the other tunes tested thus far. This car seems to have a lot of grip for what it is and the above tunes used the high Accel setting on the LSD to help the car in sweeping turns. Unfortunately for Basilea, the conservative LSD settings on a track filled with sweeping turns ended up back firing. The excessive rake also seems to be another large fault of this tune. This tune was the smoothest of all 3, which helped make it the most consistent, but unfortunately was not the fastest and for my personal driving style, suffered from far too much understeer.
Best 3 laps:
1:08.006
1:07.984
1:07.932


Full Comparison Here: Adrenaline Tune Reviews
Click to expand...

First a big thank you for the excellent review! I always like to see a new review in your thread, they are a good read most of the times.

Some points I'd like to comment:

  • Engine tuning: The fully tuned Nardo has 200 hp more and is a lot less stable, I thought when driving the first time. Would you maybe give it a go, when I add you in the PSN and put the fully tuned Nardo online to share? I had a very hard time with the default settings to keep the car straight on exits and thats why I went for stability a lot.
  • Rake: The big difference was kind of a optical decision. With a ride height of 0/0 I took a picture of the car and it looked very strange, because the front of the car has a lot free space and the rear was already close to nothing left between the chassis and the tyre, that's why I thought it needed some "balance" there. And isn't a lower front giving more oversteer, countering understeer respectively? At least the APEX booklet says so...
  • Front toe out: Like you said the car felt unresponsive and front toe out increases that, so why would you go with front toe in then?
  • LSD: There I am still learning and with the Nardo I went with get rid of inside wheel spin and don't get any outside wheel spin. By now I found out, that a low initial and a high accel makes the cars the fastest, no matter how much outside wheel spin you get! And if you loose traction it's better the increase initial, to lock the diff faster on exit of a turn. I maybe/probably rework it and set it to a higher accel and if it gives too much outside wheel spin, I increase initial...
 
Basilea
  • Engine tuning: The fully tuned Nardo has 200 hp more and is a lot less stable, I thought when driving the first time. Would you maybe give it a go, when I add you in the PSN and put the fully tuned Nardo online to share? I had a very hard time with the default settings to keep the car straight on exits and thats why I went for stability a lot.
  • Rake: The big difference was kind of a optical decision. With a ride height of 0/0 I took a picture of the car and it looked very strange, because the front of the car has a lot free space and the rear was already close to nothing left between the chassis and the tyre, that's why I thought it needed some "balance" there. And isn't a lower front giving more oversteer, countering understeer respectively? At least the APEX booklet says so...
  • Front toe out: Like you said the car felt unresponsive and front toe out increases that, so why would you go with front toe in then?
  • LSD: There I am still learning and with the Nardo I went with get rid of inside wheel spin and don't get any outside wheel spin. By now I found out, that a low initial and a high accel makes the cars the fastest, no matter how much outside wheel spin you get! And if you loose traction it's better the increase initial, to lock the diff faster on exit of a turn. I maybe/probably rework it and set it to a higher accel and if it gives too much outside wheel spin, I increase initial...
Click to expand...

If you share the car I can give it a test, I've been looking for a 2nd Nardo in the UCD since I got the first one, so I could max 1 out, but to no avail.

Rake... Think of it like a dragster. The lower the front, and higher rear the more rear grip you get. Rear grip is great for straight lines, but in corners the more grip the rear has, the less the front has (balance wise) and that creates understeer.

Toe... It increases response on entry, but I feel this car benefits more from exit.

LSD... I assume that with more power, your conservative settings might work just fine. With the lower power I was testing at, I didn't run into any wheel spin on either side.
 
OK I added you and the Nardo is shared.

About the rear grip I have to rear something else, I don't get it yet... is it because the wind/ air resistance presses the car to the ground on the rear? Doesn't make sense, as lower rear and higher front doesn't press the front more to the ground... Can you try again, so that I understand as a non car pro?

I still don't get any wheelspin, even maxed out and that was, what I was looking for in the first place. I was looking at it, that no wheelspin at all is the main goal... But I found out the car gets faster the higher accel setting you have and a bit outside wheelspin isn't that bad and can be controlled with higher initial or you just take it.
 
Basilea
OK I added you and the Nardo is shared.

About the rear grip I have to rear something else, I don't get it yet... is it because the wind/ air resistance presses the car to the ground on the rear? Doesn't make sense, as lower rear and higher front doesn't press the front more to the ground... Can you try again, so that I understand as a non car pro?

I still don't get any wheelspin, even maxed out and that was, what I was looking for in the first place. I was looking at it, that no wheelspin at all is the main goal... But I found out the car gets faster the higher accel setting you have and a bit outside wheelspin isn't that bad and can be controlled with higher initial or you just take it.
Click to expand...

My LSD technique is that you want the highest LSD Accel setting possible, without breaking traction on the outside wheel. But that's just my personal belief.

As for rake...
Imagine a car with the nose really low, and the tail really high, sitting at a stop.
Now, imagine you slam the gas to the floor.
The nose of the car lifts up and the rear of the car 'squats'.
What's happening is all of the weight from the front is being transfered to the rear. This transfer of weight is what applies force to the rear wheels and gives them the traction needed to obtain the best possible acceleration.
With me so far?
The rake helps the rear of the car 'absorb' the weight being transfered, so that it can effectively be transfered to the tires.

So that's the basic concept of rake and how it increases rear tire grip.

Now, when looking at front and rear grip through a corner, anytime you increase rear grip, you are taking away front grip (in relation to overall balance). And the balance front to back, is what dictates over or understeer.

Does that help any?
 
Adrenaline
imagine you slam the gas to the floor.
The nose of the car lifts up and the rear of the car 'squats'.
What's happening is all of the weight from the front is being transfered to the rear.
Click to expand...

All of the weight from the front shifts to the rear when you hit the gas?
 
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Looking over the tune I calculated perfect balance on your spring rates and on top of it they are an ideal stiffness (hats off to good tuning) with the rake a slightly less stiff rear could be beneficial (your perfect balance is at equal height) impressive none the less.

I'll give your Tune a go when I get one but this is one I can leave alone as far as Tuning my own. I think your Tune is perfect on paper and would only need slight tweaks to accommodate my style if even that, but I need to drive it to get the full picture.

Nice Tune!
 
No_OBsT33R
Looking over the tune I calculated perfect balance on your spring rates and on top of it they are an ideal stiffness (hats off to good tuning) with the rake a slightly less stiff rear could be beneficial (your perfect balance is at equal height) impressive none the less.

I'll give your Tune a go when I get one but this is one I can leave alone as far as Tuning my own. I think your Tune is perfect on paper and would only need slight tweaks to accommodate my style if even that, but I need to drive it to get the full picture.

Nice Tune!
Click to expand...

Ohhhh thanks a lot, even if it's only theoretical! Calculated on what or how? I didn't calculate anything and all was done by feeling... the rake came after I saw a picture taken for posting the tune and it just looked ridiculus with the front having massive space and the rear already being on the tyres, when set to 0/0... for looks I would have even went with something like -40/10 :lol:

I like the tune, it is very stable and it wasn't at all in the first place... the LSD, as Adrenaline said, is a issue and I will look over that sometimes! I'm really only in the process of learning how to tune and how thing work in GT! I play since the first part came out for PS1 but never touched the tuning part of it. I tried tuning it on sport softs but I couldn't really handle the power so I just did all on racing softs.

And yes this car rarely shows up in the UCD! Never saw it again after I bought one...
 
Basilea
Ohhhh thanks a lot, even if it's only theoretical! Calculated on what or how? I didn't calculate anything and all was done by feeling...
Click to expand...

There are 2 test to calculate if your springs are too stiff & balanced. One we can't do in the game the other we can (with a slight margin of error) the test we can't do is called the bounce test. To do it you need to remove the dampers and have one person count how many times the car bounces in 60 seconds while the other person pushes it BUT at the springs steady rate. Divide the number by 60 & you have the frequency of the spring.

In the game we can't do this test so it needs to be calculated. The calculations are very mathematical and complicated but breaks down to this.

First you need the weight distribution, this we have to source from the net, what I've found 49/51 is what the Nardo split is. Yours weighs 1290kg this gives us 632.1/657.9

The correction factor of the suspension (was tough to figure out how to calculate, easy after, but too hard to explain easily, & I'm not in the mood to get into any heated debates) this is basically how much leverage the suspension causes at the spring.

I calculate a 2.5/2.5 correction factor on the Nardo.

This will allow you to calculate the wheel rate. The formula is simple.

Wheel Rate = Spring Rate/Correction factor

We get a 5.4(rounded)/5.7 Wheel Rate.

Once you have the wheel rate we need to estimate the amount of sprung weight, USUALLY its 10 to 15 % less then the total weight. Despite this being an estimate the balance will be spot on only there will be a slight error margin (if the un-sprung weight is 12% instead of 15% for instance) for the frequency but it will be negligible.

I estimate your Sprung Weight is around 1161kg. With our Nardos 49/51 weight split we get 568.89/592.11

the formula becomes this

Spring Frequency = 187.8 x square root(Wheel Rate/Sprung Weight)

SF = 187.8 x square root(5.35/(568.89/2)) Front

&

SF = 187.8 x square root(5.7/(592.11/2)) rear

SF = 3.212Hz/3.252Hz

Race teams keep bumping up the maximum stiffness but it seams to have plateaued (for the moment) at 3.2Hz. Yours is spot on..

However when you raise or lower the car it sometimes helps to adjust the balance of the springs to accommodate the rake angle.

Basilea
the rake came after I saw a picture taken for posting the tune and it just looked ridiculus with the front having massive space and the rear already being on the tyres, when set to 0/0... for looks I would have even went with something like -40/10 :lol:
Click to expand...

I see no issue if you like it like that and accommodate it. So long as it doesn't cause abnormal/un-wanted behavior when properly accommodated.

Basle
I like the tune, it is very stable and it wasn't at all in the first place... the LSD, as Adrenaline said, is a issue and I will look over that sometimes! I'm really only in the process of learning how to tune and how thing work in GT! I play since the first part came out for PS1 but never touched the tuning part of it. I tried tuning it on sport softs but I couldn't really handle the power so I just did all on racing softs.
Click to expand...

For a guy who's learning and felt out the optimum spring rate spot on, I think you got a bright tuning future ahead of you.

Basilea
And yes this car rarely shows up in the UCD! Never saw it again after I bought one...
Click to expand...

Darnit, I want one.
 
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Well, with the extra power on the borrowed car, it feels better overall, and some rear tire spin helped justify the massive rake. It also made the conservative LSD make more sense as well. But it still suffers from understeer on corner exit. On a small tight track like this, I was struggling to beat my 620hp ghost with my quick tune on it, despite the massive power advantage. Deep Forest is definitely a track that benefits handling over power. Finally readjusting my exit strategy I was able to run a 1:06.493 with the extra power and your tune. I just think there's a better way to get rear traction, without the rake, which would help reduce some of the understeer. I'd like you to apply the settings I came up with and put 10 laps on it. It's nowhere near as refined as it should be, but even so I was able to cut 2 tenths off of the above lap time as well, but that's negligible. For the extra 200 horses, make the LSD 8/20/6. Let me know what you think. I'm glad I got the chance to drive the car with this power level, as I much prefer it at the 600 level.
 
-0.08 front toe might be causing the understeer. Try flipping it (0.08 just for cause and effect) that understeer should be reduced.

Toe out = - toe

Toe-in = + toe

The Toe-out will have the outside wheel pull out. Just think of \ / in a turn. The inside wheels will try to make a ridiculously tight turn, while the outside fight to make a much wider turn. The outside wheels pulling wide are winning the battle. Toe-in ( / \ ) will help you track the corner better, the inside wheels won't be making as wide of a turn, but the outside wheels turn radius will be tighter, and it will win the battle again with the cornering weight.

Think of it like this, in a corner AFTER your initial turn in, Your steering wheel is in the middle of your 2 front wheels, if you pull wide reducing the Toe (+ increases, - decreases) will help under those conditions.

The kicker is Toe-out will get you sharper initial turn in, Toe-in will help you track the corner better, but requires a more deliberate corner entry.

Toe-in will also improve your braking distances and stability.

It will also be less (if it may be) wobbly (with a wheel, not very perceivable with a DS3) at speed on the straights.

If your car is lethargic at turning yet it's back end is easy to break loose when turning, Toe-out is great. It gets you a sharper initial turn in and will counter rear end oversteer. It will still cost you stability and braking distances. Usually there has to be serious need for a sharper turn in to use toe-out as the cost to braking & cornering (after initial turn in ) is not often worth it.
 
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Adrenaline
Well, with the extra power on the borrowed car, it feels better overall, and some rear tire spin helped justify the massive rake. It also made the conservative LSD make more sense as well. But it still suffers from understeer on corner exit. On a small tight track like this, I was struggling to beat my 620hp ghost with my quick tune on it, despite the massive power advantage. Deep Forest is definitely a track that benefits handling over power. Finally readjusting my exit strategy I was able to run a 1:06.493 with the extra power and your tune. I just think there's a better way to get rear traction, without the rake, which would help reduce some of the understeer. I'd like you to apply the settings I came up with and put 10 laps on it. It's nowhere near as refined as it should be, but even so I was able to cut 2 tenths off of the above lap time as well, but that's negligible. For the extra 200 horses, make the LSD 8/20/6. Let me know what you think. I'm glad I got the chance to drive the car with this power level, as I much prefer it at the 600 level.
Click to expand...

No problem, now you don't have to wait for an other Nardo then... I will try some changes to eliminate some understeer and the LSD you suggest. Thanks again for the review...

No_OBsT33R
-0.08 front toe might be causing the understeer. Try flipping it (0.08 just for cause and effect) that understeer should be reduced.

The Toe-out will have the outside wheel pull out. Just think of \ / in a turn. The inside wheels will try to make a ridiculously tight turn, while the outside fight to make a much wider turn. In your case the outside wheels pulling wide are winning the battle. Toe-in ( / \ ) will help you track the corner better, the inside wheels won't be making as wide of a turn, but the outside wheels turn will be tighter, and it will win the battle again with the cornering weight.

The kicker is Toe-out will get you sharper initial turn in, Toe-out will help you track the corner better.

Toe-in will also improve your braking distances and stability.

It will also be less (if it may be) wobbly (with a wheel, not very perceivable with a DS3) at speed on the straights.
Click to expand...

I know about toe and I chose front toe out because the car didn't really responded to steering input... I see that there is some interest in that tune and will work on it again soon ;)

This SF = 187.8 x square root(5.35/568.89) gives me something with 18.212... x = multiplication? What do I have wrong? Long time no maths...
 
Basilea
I know about toe and I chose front toe out because the car didn't really responded to steering input... I see that there is some interest in that tune and will work on it again soon ;)
Click to expand...

Yup, it helps turn in for sure, but hurts braking and causes understeer (on other cars that over-rotate the front in the corner, it's also helpful). If people are complaining about the car understeering addressing the most probable cause (instead of blaming it on the rake) would be the best area to explore) as I said, just try it for cause and effect on the understeer issue. If it solves the understeer, then balance what's important and address it as such. For Instance, if 0.08 cures (or reduces) understeer but slows initial turn in, keep lowering it from 0.08 (or raising it from -0.08 ) until the benefits to initial turn in don't come at such a cost to braking and cornering. It's great to get initial turn in but if it makes you have to start braking earlier & makes you understeer when in the corner, is it really worth it? Just food for thought.

Basilea
This SF = 187.8 x square root(5.35/568.89) gives me something with 18.212... x = multiplication? What do I have wrong? Long time no maths...
Click to expand...

Agh, I figured it out take the 568.89 & /2 (2 wheels) before using it in the formula. I forgot to split the front un-sprung weight between the 2 wheels. That should help.

Yes x = multiply
 
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Fixed

The math uses real world formulas and your Spring Rates being obtained through feel, then Mirroring what the calculated max stiffness should be, is just good Tuning.
 
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My bad let me fix the math, I get lazy with excel :D ( I also forgot to convert back to lb/in for the formula) late night math, lol.

Okay First up Wheel Rate

For the formula, we will convert to lb/in

So our 13.4kg/mm/14.3kg/mm = 748.792lb/in/799.084lb/in

Our correction Factor is 2.5/2.5

Wheel Rate = spring rate/correction factor.

748.792/2.5 = 299.5168/lb/in

799.084/2.5 = 319.6336lb/in

Wheel Rate = 299.52lb/in / 319.63lb/in

So our Formula (correctly done) is the same

187.8 x square root((wheel rate/(front sprung weight/2))

187.8 x square root((299.52/(569.38/2))

187.8 x square root((299.5168/(592.11/2))

Front 3.212hz

Rear 3.252hz

I'm not home so I'll quadruple check the math when I get home. I've got it all calculated in an excel spreadsheet. Always run into issues with the square root when breaking it down with a calculator (I'm not that great in math). I just input the specs and get the frequency out of excel, as I did for your Nardo, takes as long as it takes to input the specs in excel.

I won't release this (or any other of my spread sheets due to negative members) I won't get into it with anybody over it. All the IRL guys know the formulas I've used already it's no secrete, and it's no secrete THIS is how it's done IRL.

Most sports cars in the game have stock frequencies of around 2hz - 2.5hz. The Default setting from the tunable suspension get increased to around 2.5hz - 3.0hz pushing past 3.0 to 3.2 is ideal, however it's at the same time kinda like a maximum. Anything below 3.2 is fine and up to the Tuner and depends on their intended use of the vehicle, and how aggressive the Tune is, the closer to 3.2 the more aggressive the spring rates are. No matter what most of the time anything above 3.2 is too stiff of a spring for the car, and renders the springs less and less useful to a point where pulling them out and replacing them with a solid pole would make no real difference, the springs are too stiff to work.
 
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No_OBsT33R
The Toe-out will have the outside wheel pull out. Just think of \ / in a turn. The inside wheels will try to make a ridiculously tight turn, while the outside fight to make a much wider turn. The outside wheels pulling wide are winning the battle. Toe-in ( / \ ) will help you track the corner better, the inside wheels won't be making as wide of a turn, but the outside wheels turn radius will be tighter, and it will win the battle again with the cornering weight.

The kicker is Toe-out will get you sharper initial turn in, Toe-in will help you track the corner better, but requires a more deliberate corner entry.
Click to expand...
Ah, I can't agree by 100%. It's way more complex.
Check this (I think you should already know it): toe angle

GT5 isn't always realistic. Toe-out doesn't give you sharper initial turn in in GT5 (in real life, yes).
 
dr_slump
Ah, I can't agree by 100%. It's way more complex.
Check this (I think you should already know it): toe angle

GT5 isn't always realistic. Toe-out doesn't give you sharper initial turn in in GT5 (in real life, yes).
Click to expand...

Yup right on all counts.

That's the reasoning and the principles I'm trying to use to improve my LSD calculator with.

Back to the Nardo though. The car has been said to suffer from understeer. When I see -0.08 front toe it doesn't surprise me. On a car with a highly rotating front, I'd consider some but not one that's understeering.

However, all I say is try reverse settings for cause and effect. If when you revers the front toe you don't cure the understeer (or at least reduce it), it's time to look elsewhere. My 2 areas of focus would be ARB's and Toe.
 
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