Religion/Philosophy Thread

Your religion? (select more than one if you want)

  • Christianity

    Votes: 23 46.0%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 3 6.0%
  • Islam

    Votes: 3 6.0%
  • Hinduism

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • Buddhism

    Votes: 6 12.0%
  • Confucionism

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • Zoroastrianism

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • Wicca

    Votes: 3 6.0%
  • A Native American Religion

    Votes: 2 4.0%
  • Agnosticism (don't know, don't care)

    Votes: 15 30.0%
  • Atheism

    Votes: 16 32.0%

  • Total voters
    50
I'm just wondering, how many(if any) people believe in the "Speck of Mud" theory?? Ya know, there was a little piece or puddle of mud, it exploded and that's how the universe was made........................
That is the scientific theory right.....................
Anyway.......
I personally do not believe in what I just typed. I'm a Christian, I believe in Christ and the Bible.
Oh, and I don't believe in evolution either............
 
Now this is what I'm talking about! (see: If ever a rule needed to be enforced ... ) Why can't we provide this much personal insight on the things that GTPlanet focuses on, like GT3!?! Heh, I guess we're just not as emotionally charged about video games as we are about personal beliefs. That's a good thing by the way.

~LoudMusic
 
Originally posted by Saleen Man
I'm just wondering, how many(if any) people believe in the "Speck of Mud" theory?? Ya know, there was a little piece or puddle of mud, it exploded and that's how the universe was made........................
That is the scientific theory right.....................
Anyway.......
I personally do not believe in what I just typed. I'm a Christian, I believe in Christ and the Bible.
Oh, and I don't believe in evolution either............

That's the Big Bang Theory. It is as provable as the 'Theory of Evolution'. Basically it states that the Universe started as an extremely dense ball of matter, all the matter that exists in the Universe today. It exploded ... pretty big bang, eh? And as the chunks fly outward from the explotion, galaxies are formed, and in those galaxies there are star systems and planet systems and all that great stuff we see in Sci-Fi movies and television.

Originally posted by Pako
How about the school of thought where evolution is monitored through creation? Think about.... if a blink of an eye to God is a 1,000 years to us...how long would a day be to God's? Lets assume, oh about 10 million years.... Could it be, that through the study of evolution, we are just looking into the creation process administored by God?

I think that this statement can go back as far as you'd like. The Big Bang theory says that the Big Bang(s) have been going on endlessly. The Univers is in constant bith and death. It explodes ... expands ... then everything slows down, reverses direction, and heads back to the core. I think that's refered to as the forces of gravity (:

~LoudMusic
 
Originally posted by LoudMusic


That's the Big Bang Theory. It is as provable as the 'Theory of Evolution'. Basically it states that the Universe started as an extremely dense ball of matter, all the matter that exists in the Universe today. It exploded ... pretty big bang, eh? And as the chunks fly outward from the explotion, galaxies are formed, and in those galaxies there are star systems and planet systems and all that great stuff we see in Sci-Fi movies and television.



~LoudMusic
Yeah, that's the one;)
 
I don't think that anybody in my household is really a religious person, I mean I was never even christened. I know that I am certainly not a religious person. I really am confused about how the world started and no-one really knows how it happened. All I would say is that I'm not a fully blooded believer in the Evolution theory but in some respects I would have to go with it. I mean we all know about the "big bang" which is a scientific theory which would suggest that a superior being did in fact not make the Earth. Now as for us coming from monkeys that is believable but i gotta ask myself the question well where did the monkeys come from then? And if the monkeys evolved into humans, why are there still different species of monkeys on the planet then? Anyhow these are just my beliefs coming from a non-religious person.
 
Originally posted by Pako


We can carbon date the earth to be millions of years old, we can track single cellular organisms to have existed during that time, and we can see the evolution process of single cell organisms evolving into multi-cellular organisms. Now...what do we do with this information? I don't know.
We throw it out! (Schumy will love that statement... :rolleyes: ) Seriously, though, think about it: at Carbon's rate of decay, half of it will convert back to nitrogen in 5,730 (+ or -) 40 years (a.k.a. Carbon's half life). So in two half-lives (11,460 years), only 25% will remain. So, if the amount of C relative to C in a sample is 25% of that in present living things, then it (theoretically) is 11,460 years old. Therefore, radiocarbon dating cannot be used to date anything over about 50,000 years old, since it will no longer contain any carbon to date! Things "millions" of years old, then, shouldn't have any C left in them, like coal. Schumy, since you're so scientific, how do evolutionists explain coal that is supposedly millions of years old, yet still has carbon left in it? Maybe the earth isn't as old as you think it is? ;)
 
Originally posted by Brian P
I don't think that anybody in my household is really a religious person, I mean I was never even christened. I know that I am certainly not a religious person. I really am confused about how the world started and no-one really knows how it happened. All I would say is that I'm not a fully blooded believer in the Evolution theory but in some respects I would have to go with it. I mean we all know about the "big bang" which is a scientific theory which would suggest that a superior being did in fact not make the Earth. Now as for us coming from monkeys that is believable but i gotta ask myself the question well where did the monkeys come from then? And if the monkeys evolved into humans, why are there still different species of monkeys on the planet then? Anyhow these are just my beliefs coming from a non-religious person.

Yeah, that's one of my favorites, "where did the monkeys come from then?". But even better ... life on Earth started as amoebas. Single celled organisms that reproduced asexually, ie: their single cell split into two cells. Eventually these amoebas became two celled organisms, and so on, though they still reproduced asexually. When/how/why did they start reproducing sexually? One amoeba had to produce a sperm-like cell, and another amoeba had to produce an egg-like cell. Then, whatever that produced had to continue the process. The jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction is pretty darn hard to agree with. However, and I really like Pako's point (which is why I'm going to quote him again), if evolution is monitored by a supreme being, then Genisis (with loose translation) is the writen documents of this jump in sexuallity. God took a rib from Adam and made Eve. Adam was asexual and produced Eve. Then together they produced the men and women of the world.

Also, the Bible says we were created in God's likeness. It doesn't say we were created in God's likeness ... "which is to have two legs, two arms, ten fingers and ten toes, stand upright, wear blue jeans, Doc Martin`s, and a GTPlanet t-shirt." So honestly, there's no telling what Adam and Even looked like. They could have been fish! The Garden of Eden could be at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean!

My point is, asexual to sexual conversion is highly unlikely unless aided by outside force.

~LoudMusic
 
Originally posted by Jordan
We throw it out! (Schumy will love that statement... :rolleyes: ) Seriously, though, think about it: at Carbon's rate of decay, half of it will convert back to nitrogen in 5,730 (+ or -) 40 years (a.k.a. Carbon's half life). So in two half-lives (11,460 years), only 25% will remain. So, if the amount of C relative to C in a sample is 25% of that in present living things, then it (theoretically) is 11,460 years old. Therefore, radiocarbon dating cannot be used to date anything over about 50,000 years old, since it will no longer contain any carbon to date! Things "millions" of years old, then, shouldn't have any C left in them, like coal. Schumy, since you're so scientific, how do evolutionists explain coal that is supposedly millions of years old, yet still has carbon left in it? Maybe the earth isn't as old as you think it is? ;)
I think evolution is the most ludacris thing I've ever heard, so I Thank you Jordan for posting what you just did............:thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by Jordan
Haha!!! :lol: Yep, that's me, quite the primitive type! :rolleyes: I may be primitive, but at least I'm smart enough to know when a bunch of anti-God evolutionists are trying to drill their theories in my head with some high school textbook. Believe what you want, Schumy - I just like to know where I'm going to spend eternity after I die. One more thing: be sure to read Creation: a shattering critique of the PBS/NOVA 'Evolution' series and Refuting Evolution. Using common-sense and scientific fact, they will make you re-think your evolutionistic ideas.

Pako, you really need to get this book (that I quoted out of earlier)! It's got a whole chapter dedicated to the explanation of dinosaurs in the Bible. I'll type up a little sample and post it...it's really good! :)
did you even see the Evolution series ..... my Bio class even played the series for those who had missed it but my professor even said it was interesting but they may have gone too far......of course people are going to be alarmed by it .....it clashes with their beleifs ......leave it to some creationists though to come up with a response to the series so people don't abandon their faith .....how would it look if everybody stayed quiet and nobody stood up for millions of people's beliefs .....regardless, Evolution is a scientific fact, and you can't mess with science ......any individual who does is a fool .....last time i checked they don't teach evolution in high school either at least not in a Catholic school ....it is prefered to allow a child to reach full maturity and to not distract them from all that they know ..... evolution is intended for the logical, rational people who have an appreciation for science .......i'll bet you know nothing of genetics, systematics, speciation, phylogeny, genetic variation, or natural selection .......evolution isn't some strange idea associated with a cult or something .......they don't teach it in university science courses b/c it's an interesting idea .....it's scientific fact ......i don't know how to make it any clearer ......i'll also bet you are not a doctor, dentist, orthodontist, astronomer, geologist, chemist, botanist, or anything to do with a professional scientific carreer .......all the educated, high class people that i know accept evolution .....it's not a thought/idea anymore.....that was in 1859 by Darwin ......maybe then there was huge controversy but nowadys it's quite different ......it must tell you something when you have the Pope (head of the Roman Catholic church) accepting evolution .....he doesn't want a mockery to be made of Catholocism by rejecting scientific proof:thumbsup:
 
Here's where dinosaurs fit into the Biblical picture of things:

According to the Bible, dinosaurs first existed around 6,000 years ago. God made the dinosaurs, along with the other land animals, on day six of the creation week (Gen. 1:20-25, 31). Adam and eve were also made on day six – so dinosaurs lived at the same time as people, not separated by eons of time. Dinosaurs could not have died out before people appeared, because dinosaurs had not previously existed, and death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering are results of Adam’s sin.

Representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals, including the dinosaur kinds, went on board Noah’s Ark. All those left outside the ark died in the cataclysmic circumstances of the flood, where many of their remains became fossils.

After the flood (around 4,500 years ago), the remaining land animals, including dinosaurs, came off the ark and lived in the present world, along with people. Because of sin, the judgments of the Curse, and the flood have greatly changed the earth. Post-flood climatic change, lack of food, disease, and man’s activities caused many types of animals to become extinct. The dinosaurs, like many other creatures, died out.

There's also dozens of references to the mention of dinosaurs and/or dinosaur like creatures in the Bible in this book, and I'll be glad to post that information if anyone would like to see it. :)
 
hey i tell you what guys , you's are gonna be quoting each other for eternity at this rate , who really knows ? who really cares ? at the end of the day we know that in this time and year of this very quizzical existence of a planet , we have choices ! believe or dont believe , i choose not to believe and others choose to believe :cool: thats the main thing free choice and getting along with our seperate beliefs ! but as you can see the same thing is already happening here the same as all other religious debates ! people are being offended and others dont know they are offending and it gets sent back and forth, back and forth :rolleyes: forget it guys you's gave your opinions now drop it and get back to the friendly conversations you's were having before this debate thread was posted ;) i'm not saying world war 3 thread or nothing but it is a subject you should give one visit to and not run back in defending your last post , sorry people i say it as i see it and this thread should be left for the gutter as it is pointless , points were made and very interesting but an epic debate lies ahead :eek: cya guys chill out :D
 
Originally posted by Jordan
Here's where dinosaurs fit into the Biblical picture of things:



There's also dozens of references to the mention of dinosaurs and/or dinosaur like creatures in the Bible in this book, and I'll be glad to post that information if anyone would like to see it. :)

Interesting... I don't know about the Noah thing though.... I mean if God commanded Noah to bring 2 of each kind (not limiting the Brontosourisis (sp?), T-Rex's..., I mean....Some of those Dino's were the size of the ark, and ... I mean with God all things are possible, but Noah would be in direct violation against God if he didn't bring EVERY pair of air breathing animals.

I just don't see Noah asking a T-Rex and his Wife to kindly step into the ark...

And you Dino buffs out there, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of the Dino's die around the same time? I'm totally uneducated in this area so I don't want to mis-quote facts...but please help me here..

And yes, some Biblical references to Dino's would be most helpful.. ;)
 
Originally posted by mr persistance
hey i tell you what guys , you's are gonna be quoting each other for eternity at this rate , who really knows ? who really cares ? at the end of the day we know that in this time and year of this very quizzical existence of a planet , we have choices ! believe or dont believe , i choose not to believe and others choose to believe :cool: thats the main thing free choice and getting along with our seperate beliefs ! but as you can see the same thing is already happening here the same as all other religious debates ! people are being offended and others dont know they are offending and it gets sent back and forth, back and forth :rolleyes: forget it guys you's gave your opinions now drop it and get back to the friendly conversations you's were having before this debate thread was posted ;) i'm not saying world war 3 thread or nothing but it is a subject you should give one visit to and not run back in defending your last post , sorry people i say it as i see it and this thread should be left for the gutter as it is pointless , points were made and very interesting but an epic debate lies ahead :eek: cya guys chill out :D

WHOA?!?!?! mr persistance....what's up man. I for one am having the time of my life here... I mean, GT3 is pretty awesome, but when we get a chance to talk about Life, Creation, the Universe and such awesome things as that, I tend to get a little excited about it, and enjoy every minute of it.

These topics are real and soak up everyones opinions... I really haven't seen any direct defending, more just informational brain picking is all.. ;)
 
Originally posted by Schumy
did you even see the Evolution series ..... my Bio class even played the series for those who had missed it but my professor even said it was interesting but they may have gone too far......of course people are going to be alarmed by it .....it clashes with their beleifs ......leave it to some creationists though to come up with a response to the series so people don't abandon their faith .....how would it look if everybody stayed quiet and nobody stood up for millions of people's beliefs .....regardless, Evolution is a scientific fact, and you can't mess with science ......any individual who does is a fool .....last time i checked they don't teach evolution in high school either at least not in a Catholic school ....it is prefered to allow a child to reach full maturity and to not distract them from all that they know ..... evolution is intended for the logical, rational people who have an appreciation for science .......i'll bet you know nothing of genetics, systematics, speciation, phylogeny, genetic variation, or natural selection .......evolution isn't some strange idea associated with a cult or something .......they don't teach it in university science courses b/c it's an interesting idea .....it's scientific fact ......i don't know how to make it any clearer ......i'll also bet you are not a doctor, dentist, orthodontist, astronomer, geologist, chemist, botanist, or anything to do with a professional scientific carreer .......all the educated, high class people that i know accept evolution .....it's not a thought/idea anymore.....that was in 1859 by Darwin ......maybe then there was huge controversy but nowadys it's quite different ......it must tell you something when you have the Pope (head of the Roman Catholic church) accepting evolution .....he doesn't want a mockery to be made of Catholocism by rejecting scientific proof:thumbsup:
First of all, not to offend any Catholics or yourself, but I'm not a Catholic person and the Pope has no special meaning to me at all. Sure, I respect him and he's a wonderful man, but what he says has no influence on me. He's just a man, created by God, who is just as capable of being misled and sinning as I am myself.

Second, rethink your comments on Evolution being "a scientific fact". It's impossible for it to be a proven fact: it can't be proven because (even if it did happen) nobody was around to document it! (Besides, I've never heard it referred to as the "Fact of Evolution", anyway.) Therefore, Evolution must be a theory, correct? I don't think so. For it to be a theory, you would have to be able to re-create the phenomenon, and we both know that scientists will never be able to make a monkey transform into a human being, no matter how hard they try or how much time they use.

And no, I haven't seen the Evolution series. Christians are not the primary audience of the response information that I provided the link to; it's directed at "scientific" people like yourself to point out the holes in the Evolutionary idea.
 
Originally posted by Jordan
Here's where dinosaurs fit into the Biblical picture of things:



There's also dozens of references to the mention of dinosaurs and/or dinosaur like creatures in the Bible in this book, and I'll be glad to post that information if anyone would like to see it. :)

That would be cool..thank you.
 
Originally posted by Pako


Interesting... I don't know about the Noah thing though.... I mean if God commanded Noah to bring 2 of each kind (not limiting the Brontosourisis (sp?), T-Rex's..., I mean....Some of those Dino's were the size of the ark, and ... I mean with God all things are possible, but Noah would be in direct violation against God if he didn't bring EVERY pair of air breathing animals.

I just don't see Noah asking a T-Rex and his Wife to kindly step into the ark...

And you Dino buffs out there, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't most of the Dino's die around the same time? I'm totally uneducated in this area so I don't want to mis-quote facts...but please help me here..

And yes, some Biblical references to Dino's would be most helpful.. ;)
Yes Pako, all things are possible with God. If you think the fact that Noah got all the animals onto the Ark (and kept his wife happy :D) was pretty amazing, just think about how he actually got 2 of each animal to even come to the ark in the first place? I don't think he went around the world herding and caging each and every living thing he came across. No, no, that was all God's direct intervention. He told two animals to go, and of course, they obeyed. Obviously, he also told this to the T-Rex's, and he also would have told them (and any other dangerous animals) to be calm while on the boat.

And, you are correct that many paleontologists believe that all the dinosaurs were wiped out about the same time in one cataclysmic event, such as something hitting the earth or terrible volcanic activity. But, wait...that cataclysmic event couldn't have been The Flood...could it? ;)
 
Originally posted by mr persistance
hey i tell you what guys , you's are gonna be quoting each other for eternity at this rate , who really knows ? who really cares ? at the end of the day we know that in this time and year of this very quizzical existence of a planet , we have choices ! believe or dont believe , i choose not to believe and others choose to believe :cool: thats the main thing free choice and getting along with our seperate beliefs ! but as you can see the same thing is already happening here the same as all other religious debates ! people are being offended and others dont know they are offending and it gets sent back and forth, back and forth :rolleyes: forget it guys you's gave your opinions now drop it and get back to the friendly conversations you's were having before this debate thread was posted ;) i'm not saying world war 3 thread or nothing but it is a subject you should give one visit to and not run back in defending your last post , sorry people i say it as i see it and this thread should be left for the gutter as it is pointless , points were made and very interesting but an epic debate lies ahead :eek: cya guys chill out :D
I have to agree with Pako, this is fun and very interesting. I am also very proud of the way the GTPlanet community has handled it so far - most threads like this in other forums quickly degrade from a debate to an all-out brawl with nothing but senseless personal attacks.
 
Hmmm...looks like a lot of interesting debate going on here! ;)

First of all, I think the idea that this thread is too personal is ludicris...I am Jewish, and I STARTED this thread!

I thought I would point a few things out and say some things that I believe...

I am currently taking a class about the Qur'an (Koran), and I am finding it very interesting. As it happens, though I consider myself somewhat indecisive when it comes to religion (I would say I go between Judaism and Agnosticism), a lot of Islam makes a WHOLE lot of sense. First, we need to drop our stereotypical Islamic terrorist stereotype...Osama bin Laden, Al-Qaida, and the Taliban all belong to a fringe muslim sect called "Wahabbis", who are considered arrogant blasphemers by many other learned muslims of other sects.

For example, the Qur'an directly addresses science. While Judaeo-Christian religions simply blame everything on some God-given miracle, Islam accepts and restates many or all of the scientific laws as truth. Of course, it takes it a step further, saying that these laws were DESIGNED and CREATED by Allah. This, however, is not terribly hard to imagine (that some greater power designed the laws, not neccesarily Allah). I mean, we can all agree that gravity is an undeniable force...but can we say WHY? I don't mean "gravity is the force of attraction between masses", I mean, WHY THE HELL is that true? Who decided that?

Another thing that amazes me about Islam is how it actually corresponds is a large way to the BIG BANG THEORY! (Of course, it was written hundreds of years before the theory was conceived.) Islam treats Allah as many things, among which could be "the universe" as a whole...EVERYTHING that exists. The Qur'an teaches that basically, originally Allah was alone, it was he alone in a small form that existed. He then decided to expand and show himself to his creation, so he began to expand, limiting his expansion. He will continue to expand at a certain rate until when day he will begin to contract until he is eventually back to his original form and all in the universe is one. Does this not follow the big bang theory?

In any case, I am not a muslim, I just thought that these facts were very interesting. I enjoy asking questions such as these...and I am not sure what my own beliefs are. If I had to choose one, I would choose agnostic, EXCEPT that its just that I DON'T KNOW, but I DO CARE.

I'll write more later.
Keep up the good work.
 
actually dinosaurs evolved from other reptiles (socket-toothed archosaurs) during the Triassic period, over 230 million years ago .... mammals also evolved during the Triassic period.....dinosaurs then evolved soon after the Permian extinction (65 million years ago), which was the biggest mass extinction that ever occured on Earth .....it was the end of the Cretaceous period which was a time of high volcanic and techtonic activity .....there are many theories why the extinction occured ....most widely accepted theory is that an asteroid impact caused major climactic changes to which the dinosaurs couldn't adapt
 
Originally posted by Jordan
......And, you are correct that many paleontologists believe that all the dinosaurs were wiped out about the same time in one cataclysmic event, such as something hitting the earth or terrible volcanic activity. But, wait...that cataclysmic event couldn't have been The Flood...could it? ;)

Well that's why I was asking, because if it was the flood...... Umm.. there would be evidence of another period of time where Dino's thrived. That is, if Noah had 2 of each kind on the ark. So what was the Second cataclysmic event that whiped out the second phase (let's call it the Noah generation) of Dino's?

Or dare I ask..... did they evolve into other species that we call mammals today?
 
Originally posted by Jordan
Yes Pako, all things are possible with God. If you think the fact that Noah got all the animals onto the Ark (and kept his wife happy :D) was pretty amazing, just think about how he actually got 2 of each animal to even come to the ark in the first place? I don't think he went around the world herding and caging each and every living thing he came across. No, no, that was all God's direct intervention. He told two animals to go, and of course, they obeyed. Obviously, he also told this to the T-Rex's, and he also would have told them (and any other dangerous animals) to be calm while on the boat.

And, you are correct that many paleontologists believe that all the dinosaurs were wiped out about the same time in one cataclysmic event, such as something hitting the earth or terrible volcanic activity. But, wait...that cataclysmic event couldn't have been The Flood...could it? ;)

Jordan- you're argument is a little hard to contemplate. You use the fact that Noah got all of the animals into the ark as evidence for God's existence. However, since Noah's story is biblical, there is no more proof (in fact, less) that this story is true than if there IS a god!

Therefore, since this story is dependant on the bible for its very verification, and the bible preaches God's existence, you can't have one without the other. Did that make sense? :D
 
Originally posted by Pako


That would be cool..thank you.
OK, here we go...

If people saw dinosaurs, you would think ancient historical writings, such as the Bible, should mention them. The King James Version was first translated in 1611. Some people think that because the word “dinosaur” is not found in this, or other translations, the Bible does not mention dinosaurs.

However, it was not until 1841 that the word “dinosaur” was invented. Sir Richard Owen, a famous British anatomist and first superintendent of the British Museum (and a staunch anti-Darwinist), on viewing the bones of Iguanodon and Megalosaurus, realized these represented a unique group of reptiles that had not yet been classified. He coined the term “dinosaur” from Greek words meaning “terrible lizard”.

Thus, one would not expect to find the word “dinosaur” in the King James Bible – the word did not exist when the translation was done.

Is there another word for “disnoaur”? There are dragon legends from around the world. Many “dragon” descriptions fit the characteristics of specific dinosaurs. Could these actually be accounts of encounters with what we now call dinosaurs?

The Hebrew word commonly translated “dragon” in the KDJV (Hebre: tan, tannin, tannim, tannoth) appears in the Old Testament some 30 times. There are passages in the Bible about “dragons” that lived on the land: “he [Nebuchadnezzar] has swallowed me like a dragon” (Jer. 51:34), “the dragons of the wilderness” (Mal. 1:3). Many biblical creationists believe that in many contexts these could refer to what we now call dinosaurs. Indeed, Strong’s Concordance lists “dinosaur” as one of the meanings of “tannin/m”.

In Genesis 1:21, the Bible says: “And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind.” The Hebrew word here for “sea monsters” (“whales” in KJV) is the word translated elsewhere as “dragon” (Hebrew: tannin). So, in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, God may be describing the great sea dragons (sea-dwelling dinosaur-type animals) He created.

There are other Bible passages about dragons that lived in the sea: “the dragons in the waters” (Ps. 74:13), “and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea” (Isa. 27:1). Though the word “dinosaur” strictly refers to animals that lived on the land, the sea reptiles and flying reptiles are often grouped with the dinosaurs. The sea-dragons could have included dinosaur-type animals such as the Mosasaurus.

Job 41 describes a great animal that lived in the sea, Leviathan, that even breathed fire. This “dragon” may have been something like the mighty 55-foot (17 m) long Kronosaurus, or the 82-foot (25 m) long Liopleurodon.
There is also mention of a flying serpent in the Bible: the “fiery flying serpent” (Isa. 30:6). This could be a reference to one of the pterodactyls, which are popularly thought of as flying dinosaurs, such as the Pteranodon, Rhamphorhynchus or Ornithocheirus.

Not long after the flood, God was showing a man called Job how great He was as Creator, by reminding Job of the largest land animal He had made:

“Behold now behemoth, which I made with you; he heats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are like tubes of bronze; his limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: his maker brings near his sword.” (Job 40:15-19)

The phrase “chief of the ways of God” suggests this was the largest land animal God had made. So what kind of animal was “behemoth”?

Bible translators, not being sure what this beast was, often transliterated the Hebrew, and thus the word “behemoth” (i.e., KJF, NKJV, NASB, NIV). However, in many Bible commentaries and Bible footnotes, “behemoth” is said to be “possibly the hippopotamus or elephant”. Some Bible versions actually translate “behemoth” this way. Besides the fact that the elephant and hippo were NOT the largest land animals God made (some of the dinosaurs far eclipsed these), this description does not make sense, since the tail of behemoth is compared to a cedar tree.

Now, an elephant’s tiny tail (or a hippo’s tail that looks like a flap of skin!) is quite unlike a cedar tree! Clearly the elephant and the hippo could not possibly be “behemoth”. No living creature comes close to this description. However, behemoth is very like Brachiosaurus, one of the large dinosaurs.

Once again, this comes out of the excellent "Answers Book" and it contains many more arguments that support Dinosaurs existed in Biblical times, but I just can't type all that, sorry! :P
 
Well that's why I was asking, because if it was the flood...... Umm.. there would be evidence of another period of time where Dino's thrived. That is, if Noah had 2 of each kind on the ark. So what was the Second cataclysmic event that whiped out the second phase (let's call it the Noah generation) of Dino's?

Or dare I ask..... did they evolve into other species that we call mammals today?
Hehe, just read through that post again and you'll see. The world was very different after the flood, and the dinosaurs (all two of them) couldn't survive or adapt enough to continue living. However, if some of the more modern references to "dragons" are really talking about dinosaurs, then we do have plenty of evidence that a few could still be alive. (Anyone remember the photo of the unknown dinosaur-like creature caught in a Japanese fishing boat's net?)

Jordan- you're argument is a little hard to contemplate. You use the fact that Noah got all of the animals into the ark as evidence for God's existence. However, since Noah's story is biblical, there is no more proof (in fact, less) that this story is true than if there IS a god!

Therefore, since this story is dependant on the bible for its very verification, and the bible preaches God's existence, you can't have one without the other. Did that make sense?
Sorry, I think the way I worded that makes it come accross the wrong way. I'm not saying that Noah told all the animals to come to the ark, I'm saying that God did, and they obeyed all his instructions.
 
Ok...I have seen people say "I believe in the bible" "I am a devoted Christian", etc., but I haven't seen anyone back that up with any evidence!?

So, here's a challenge, give me evidence or a reason to believe in the supernatural over the practical! :D Good luck. ;)
 
Originally posted by Schumy
actually dinosaurs evolved from other reptiles (socket-toothed archosaurs) during the Triassic period, over 230 million years ago .... mammals also evolved during the Triassic period.....dinosaurs then evolved soon after the Permian extinction (65 million years ago), which was the biggest mass extinction that ever occured on Earth .....it was the end of the Cretaceous period which was a time of high volcanic and techtonic activity .....there are many theories why the extinction occured ....most widely accepted theory is that an asteroid impact caused major climactic changes to which the dinosaurs couldn't adapt
If that's true, then please explain this section in my book...

There is also physical evidence that dinosaur bones are not millions of years old. Scientists from the University of Montana found T. rex bones that were not totally fossilized. Sections of the bones were like fresh bone and contained what seems to be blood cells and hemoglobin. If these bones really were millions of years old, then the blood cells and hemoglobin would have totally disintegrated. Also, there should not be “fresh” bone if it were really millions of years old. A report by these scientists stated the following:

“A thin slice of T. rex bone glowed amber beneath the lens of my microscope… the lab filled with murmurs of amazement, for I had focused on something inside the vessels that none of us had ever noticed before: tiny round objects, translucent red with a dark center…. Red blood cells? The shape and location suggested them, but blood cells are mostly water and couldn’t possible have stayed preserved in the 65-millsion year old tyrannosaur. . . . The bone sample that had us so excited cam from a beautiful, nearly complete specimen of Tyrannosaurus rex unearthed in 1990. . . . When the team brought the dinosaur into the lab, we noticed that some parts deep inside the the long bone of the leg had not completely fossilized . . . . So far, we think that all of this evidence supports the notion that our slices of T. rex could contain preserved heme and hemoglobin fragments. But more work needs to be done before we are confident enough to come right out and say “Yes, this T. rex has blood compounds left in its tissues.”

Unfossilized duck-billed dinosaur bones have been found on the North Slope in Alaska. Also, creation scientists collected such (unfossilized) frozen dinosaur bones in Alaska. Evolutionists would not say that these bones had stayed frozen for the many millions of years since these dinosaurs supposedly died out (according to evolutionary theory). Yet the bones could not have survived for the millions of years unmineralized. This is a puzzle to those who believe in an “age of dinosaurs” millions of years ago, but not to someone who builds their thinking on the Bible.
 
Originally posted by Jordan
We throw it out! (Schumy will love that statement... :rolleyes: ) Seriously, though, think about it: at Carbon's rate of decay, half of it will convert back to nitrogen in 5,730 (+ or -) 40 years (a.k.a. Carbon's half life). So in two half-lives (11,460 years), only 25% will remain. So, if the amount of C relative to C in a sample is 25% of that in present living things, then it (theoretically) is 11,460 years old. Therefore, radiocarbon dating cannot be used to date anything over about 50,000 years old, since it will no longer contain any carbon to date! Things "millions" of years old, then, shouldn't have any C left in them, like coal. Schumy, since you're so scientific, how do evolutionists explain coal that is supposedly millions of years old, yet still has carbon left in it? Maybe the earth isn't as old as you think it is? ;)

That's right, Carbon Dating is only useful for organic based dating, and 50,00 years is even going a little high (It's unusually incaccurate)
The actual method of dating used in geology is radiometric dating. This generally utilizes Uranium and Potassium isotopes which possess much greater halflives than carbon 14. (ie 5730 years versus 4.47 billion years (U-238), and 1.25 billion (potassium 40).) So, Yes the Earth is as old as we think it is. :)
As to the Question of Coal, what you are dealing with is two different Carbon atoms called Isotopes. One is Carbon 14, and after that decays, what is left is Carbon 12. (Nothing is ever destroyed, when an Elemental Isotope Decays it takes on the form of another isotope, or even a different element altogether depending on how many Protons, electrons, and Neutrons it still posesses. In this case, one Carbon atom becomes another, more stable, atom.

While I didn't want to touch this thread with the average 10 foot poll, I wanted to get the science cleared up. :rolleyes:
As for my personal beliefs, I was raised Roman Catholic but have seen and learned too much in my life to lean toward either side of the fence. The Everlasting Universe, and the Concept of a God that existed before creation is far too complex a concept for the human brain to quantify, and that is just what Religeon and the Bible (and other texts and teachings) are trying to do.
There is a concept which I subscribe to after reading a series of books called "The Masks of God" by Joseph Campbell. One of the ideas that he expresses is that ALL religeons have common themes that later religeons adopt as thier own (with certain modifications to suit the times)
While this lead me to believe that no religeon is 'right' it also does point out that nearly all monotheistic religeons (and Polytheistic religeons are also just as similar. For Example Zeus as God, and all the lesser gods as represented by angels in Christianity etc etc.)
What you will find is that most religeons teach a basic guidline for human behavior to keep the masses out of trouble, and depending on the society and region, the superfluous portions are the only real differences, but what really matters is that the cores are the same.
I'll leave all of you with a two final ideas to mull over....
1. Just because all life was probably created by a lightning bolt into a pool of amino acids, doesn't mean that God didn't guide that bolt. (Or Zeus ;))
2. There are no Athiests in Foxholes.
 
Originally posted by Jordan
First of all, not to offend any Catholics or yourself, but I'm not a Catholic person and the Pope has no special meaning to me at all. Sure, I respect him and he's a wonderful man, but what he says has no influence on me. He's just a man, created by God, who is just as capable of being misled and sinning as I am myself.

Second, rethink your comments on Evolution being "a scientific fact". It's impossible for it to be a proven fact: it can't be proven because (even if it did happen) nobody was around to document it! (Besides, I've never heard it referred to as the "Fact of Evolution", anyway.) Therefore, Evolution must be a theory, correct? I don't think so. For it to be a theory, you would have to be able to re-create the phenomenon, and we both know that scientists will never be able to make a monkey transform into a human being, no matter how hard they try or how much time they use.

And no, I haven't seen the Evolution series. Christians are not the primary audience of the response information that I provided the link to; it's directed at "scientific" people like yourself to point out the holes in the Evolutionary idea.
sorry, you must be misinformed b/c evolution is a scientific fact ......i get the impression that you think evolution is something that happened .....that's alright though b/c despite being the most important concept in biology, evolution is often poorly understood and has frequently been misinterpreted for economic, social, and scientific reasons ......actually evolution is occuring all the time ......evolution has no purpose and is an inevitable outcome of interactions between organisms and their environment ......natural selection has no purpose, direction or goal, not even the survival of the species .....evolution and natural selection, like blizzards and gravity, just are! ........if you don't accept that evolution is occuring then basically you're saying that over generations there is no genetic change in populations ......perhaps you should consult any modern day text-book to update yourself ......evolution is an extremely slow process but if you wanted to observe it you could b/c certain bacteria only live for minutes/hours, so many generations can exist in a small amount of time; evolution is easier to observe in this situation:cheers:
 
Originally posted by Stealth Viper
Ok...I have seen people say "I believe in the bible" "I am a devoted Christian", etc., but I haven't seen anyone back that up with any evidence!?

So, here's a challenge, give me evidence or a reason to believe in the supernatural over the practical! :D Good luck. ;)
Ah, that's easy!!! Countless miracles have been very well documented in the Bible, and there's no way anyone can "misinterpret" them! :) Jesus made the lame walk, let the blind see, and gave the deaf their hearing back. He also raised Lazarus from the dead, and himself too!

Although Jesus is the main "miracle worker", there's miracles that happen every day - you've probably experienced a few yourself!
 
Originally posted by Jordan
Ah, that's easy!!! Countless miracles have been very well documented in the Bible, and there's no way anyone can "misinterpret" them! :) Jesus made the lame walk, let the blind see, and gave the deaf their hearing back. He also raised Lazarus from the dead, and himself too!

Although Jesus is the main "miracle worker", there's miracles that happen every day - you've probably experienced a few yourself!

Not good enough, I'm afraid. It been chronologically proven that many of the stories in the new testament didn't really happen. Besides, what VERIFICATION is there of these things really happening?

It seems to me people always take what the bible says as a given truth. However, I have also observed that frequently when asked "how do you know that everything in the bible is true", they either get defensive, aggresive, or spurt random things about "everyone else believes it so should you".

The fact that phropets in the bible performed miracles that are otherwise impossible makes me doubt their validity even further.
 
Originally posted by Tom McDonnell


That's right, Carbon Dating is only useful for organic based dating, and 50,00 years is even going a little high (It's unusually incaccurate)
The actual method of dating used in geology is radiometric dating. This generally utilizes Uranium and Potassium isotopes which possess much greater halflives than carbon 14. (ie 5730 years versus 4.47 billion years (U-238), and 1.25 billion (potassium 40).) So, Yes the Earth is as old as we think it is. :)
As to the Question of Coal, what you are dealing with is two different Carbon atoms called Isotopes. One is Carbon 14, and after that decays, what is left is Carbon 12. (Nothing is ever destroyed, when an Elemental Isotope Decays it takes on the form of another isotope, or even a different element altogether depending on how many Protons, electrons, and Neutrons it still posesses. In this case, one Carbon atom becomes another, more stable, atom.

While I didn't want to touch this thread with the average 10 foot poll, I wanted to get the science cleared up. :rolleyes:
As for my personal beliefs, I was raised Roman Catholic but have seen and learned too much in my life to lean toward either side of the fence. The Everlasting Universe, and the Concept of a God that existed before creation is far too complex a concept for the human brain to quantify, and that is just what Religeon and the Bible (and other texts and teachings) are trying to do.
There is a concept which I subscribe to after reading a series of books called "The Masks of God" by Joseph Campbell. One of the ideas that he expresses is that ALL religeons have common themes that later religeons adopt as thier own (with certain modifications to suit the times)
While this lead me to believe that no religeon is 'right' it also does point out that nearly all monotheistic religeons (and Polytheistic religeons are also just as similar. For Example Zeus as God, and all the lesser gods as represented by angels in Christianity etc etc.)
What you will find is that most religeons teach a basic guidline for human behavior to keep the masses out of trouble, and depending on the society and region, the superfluous portions are the only real differences, but what really matters is that the cores are the same.
I'll leave all of you with a two final ideas to mull over....
1. Just because all life was probably created by a lightning bolt into a pool of amino acids, doesn't mean that God didn't guide that bolt. (Or Zeus ;))
2. There are no Athiests in Foxholes.
well said Tom .......i'm glad you did enter the thread b/c i was having a hard time and you helped to clarify things with your knowledge of chemistry ......surely you have post-secondary education in the science field .......i also agreed with everything you said which is rare .......perhaps we're related b/c my last name is also McDonell (yeah, with one "n" ) .....i think my dad's side of the family didn't know how to spell their name b/c everywhere i see it, it has 2 "n's":cheers:
 
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