Religion/Philosophy Thread

[Tom M]

Originally posted by Jordan
Ah, that's easy!!! Countless miracles have been very well documented in the Bible, and there's no way anyone can "misinterpret" them! Jesus made the lame walk, let the blind see, and gave the deaf their hearing back. He also raised Lazarus from the dead, and himself too!

Although Jesus is the main "miracle worker", there's miracles that happen every day - you've probably experienced a few yourself!

Knee Replacement surgery, Surgery for the deaf (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~garyh/preemie_forum/old-messages/17535.html), Corneal Transplantation, and a good old fashioned Defibrulator.
While none of this is quite the same thing, in 100 years or so, our technology is going to bring us to a point in time where the miracles of the bible are going to be kind of commonplace. I would begin to delve into what part of religeon actually makes you believe in a divine power, because Miracles will soon be obsolete. Give it enough time, perhaps Time travel will be on the list of accomplishments. From that point on, who is to say that I couldn't travel back to the time of neandertals, strike a match on my butt, and set up shop as Tom supreme ruler of planet Spira.
As for why I believe... It just seems natural that in a universe bound by Chaos, that there must be one thing giving it all order.

And to Answer you Schumy, I interned at Brookhaven National Laboratory's NSLS (National Synchrotron Light Source) way back. Apparently quite a bit of my Education there seems to still be rattlin' 'round the olde noggin'

 

[Jordan]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper


Not good enough, I'm afraid. It been chronologically proven that many of the stories in the new testament didn't really happen. Besides, what VERIFICATION is there of these things really happening?

It seems to me people always take what the bible says as a given truth. However, I have also observed that frequently when asked "how do you know that everything in the bible is true", they either get defensive, aggresive, or spurt random things about "everyone else believes it so should you".

The fact that phropets in the bible performed miracles that are otherwise impossible makes me doubt their validity even further.

Well, I think the Jewish religion caused our different opinions. I don't consider Jesus "just a prophet", I consider him the one true Messiah. To believe everything in the Bible is true takes faith, just as much as it does to believe that life on earth evolved from a few small living cells.

How have the stories in the New Testament been "chronologically" proven that they didn't happen?

The actual method of dating used in geology is radiometric dating. This generally utilizes Uranium and Potassium isotopes which possess much greater halflives than carbon 14. (ie 5730 years versus 4.47 billion years (U-238), and 1.25 billion (potassium 40).) So, Yes the Earth is as old as we think it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but radiometric dating uses the relative concentrations of parent and daughter products in radioactive decay chains. Even if you get very accurate measurements with that method, to derive actual ages from those measurements requires you to make improvable assumptions...

• You have known starting conditions
• Decay rates have always been constant
• Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added

 

[Jordan]

Originally posted by Tom McDonnell


Knee Replacement surgery, Surgery for the deaf (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~garyh/preemie_forum/old-messages/17535.html), Corneal Transplantation, and a good old fashioned Defibrulator.
While none of this is quite the same thing, in 100 years or so, our technology is going to bring us to a point in time where the miracles of the bible are going to be kind of commonplace. I would begin to delve into what part of religeon actually makes you believe in a divine power, because Miracles will soon be obsolete. Give it enough time, perhaps Time travel will be on the list of accomplishments. From that point on, who is to say that I couldn't travel back to the time of neandertals, strike a match on my butt, and set up shop as Tom supreme ruler of planet Spira.
As for why I believe... It just seems natural that in a universe bound by Chaos, that there must be one thing giving it all order.

And to Answer you Schumy, I interned at Brookhaven National Laboratory's NSLS (National Synchrotron Light Source) way back. Apparently quite a bit of my Education there seems to still be rattlin' 'round the olde noggin'

A very good point, Tom. It will certainly be a wonderful day when we can easily cure the worst disabilities and diseases, I look forward to it as well! But, the miracles that Jesus performed were done without any form of technology.

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by Tom McDonnell


Knee Replacement surgery, Surgery for the deaf (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~garyh/preemie_forum/old-messages/17535.html), Corneal Transplantation, and a good old fashioned Defibrulator.
While none of this is quite the same thing, in 100 years or so, our technology is going to bring us to a point in time where the miracles of the bible are going to be kind of commonplace. I would begin to delve into what part of religeon actually makes you believe in a divine power, because Miracles will soon be obsolete. Give it enough time, perhaps Time travel will be on the list of accomplishments. From that point on, who is to say that I couldn't travel back to the time of neandertals, strike a match on my butt, and set up shop as Tom supreme ruler of planet Spira.
As for why I believe... It just seems natural that in a universe bound by Chaos, that there must be one thing giving it all order.

And to Answer you Schumy, I interned at Brookhaven National Laboratory's NSLS (National Synchrotron Light Source) way back. Apparently quite a bit of my Education there seems to still be rattlin' 'round the olde noggin'

couldn't agree with you more on the miracle thing ......time travel .....i think about it .....you'd have to be quicker than the speed of light .....pretty crazy stuff is all i can say ......i believe in God b/c everything works out too well in life and b/c i'd like to think there is something after life besides dirt ........what do you do now having interned there?

 

[Tom M]

Originally posted by Schumy
couldn't agree with you more on the miracle thing ......time travel .....i think about it .....you'd have to be quicker than the speed of light .....pretty crazy stuff is all i can say ......i believe in God b/c everything works out too well in life and b/c i'd like to think there is something after life besides dirt ........what do you do now having interned there?

I sell Oranges on a Street Corner. Actually, after that I became an English Lit major, but continued studying Psychology, Theology, Physics, Chemistry, and a few other things before I graduated. Now I only read things that catch my fancy. And my Job is about as far from the world of the Scientific as I can possibly get... And I think I'll keep it that way.

And back to Jordan
Yes there are Factors that affect the outcome of such dating, but that is why you have a margin of error (Also if they only had one or two examples to deduce from, it would be one thing, but we are talking about an overwhelming body of evidence all pointing in one direction - ie. planet Earth as a whole) But when you are dealing with several hundred million Years (for Coal, and Dinosaurs etc) or Several Billion Years (The Earth and Beyond) you generally can't get nit picky about 50 million years or so, it just sounds like you are clutching at straws...
I also just can't allow the notion that someone can toss provable science, founded in reality, to the side, citing what they feel are 'inconsistencies' in the ideas, and in the same breath blindly follow the bible which has little to no proof in all areas. It just sounds too much like a few hundred thousand Lemmings putting on thier Swim trunks to me... Life just doesn't work that way, it's called not having your cake, and eating it too.

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by Tom McDonnell


I sell Oranges on a Street Corner. Actually, after that I became an English Lit major, but continued studying Psychology, Theology, Physics, Chemistry, and a few other things before I graduated. Now I only read things that catch my fancy. And my Job is about as far from the world of the Scientific as I can possibly get... And I think I'll keep it that way.

And back to Jordan
Yes there are Factors that affect the outcome of such dating, but that is why you have a margin of error (Also if they only had one or two examples to deduce from, it would be one thing, but we are talking about an overwhelming body of evidence all pointing in one direction - ie. planet Earth as a whole) But when you are dealing with several hundred million Years (for Coal, and Dinosaurs etc) or Several Billion Years (The Earth and Beyond) you generally can't get nit picky about 50 million years or so, it just sounds like you are clutching at straws...
I also just can't allow the notion that someone can toss provable science, founded in reality, to the side, citing what they feel are 'inconsistencies' in the ideas, and in the same breath blindly follow the bible which has little to no proof in all areas. It just sounds too much like a few hundred thousand Lemmings putting on thier Swim trunks to me... Life just doesn't work that way, it's called not having your cake, and eating it too.

man, those english skills really pay off when you're trying to prove a point .....i wish i could say things the way you do .....it's good to have intelligent humour around here

 

[TATINEE]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper
Ok...I have seen people say "I believe in the bible" "I am a devoted Christian", etc., but I haven't seen anyone back that up with any evidence!?

So, here's a challenge, give me evidence or a reason to believe in the supernatural over the practical! Good luck.

Well, I can't give you hard evidence.. I can give you examples of things that have happened in my life if you'd like.. times when I had nothing else to do but to trust that there was a God and pray that he would step in and work things out and he did just that. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't always give you the answer you're looking for or respond as fast as you want him to, but he does what IS right for your particular situation in his own time. There's no way that I can believe that my life has worked out the way it has just by coincidence.. I'm not that lucky. It has a lot to do with faith.. believing in something w/o the proof to back it up. It's hard to describe to a non believer the way I feel when I'm at church, whether it be up on the stage singing praise songs or listening to the pastor... the peace that's around me and the overall happiness.

Besides, you can't just take my word for it or anyone else's, for that matter. I think that if people are confused, they should study and ask questions. Find out your own truths and go from there. Don't depend on others to tell you what's right and what's wrong b/c how do you know what they're saying is right?

Sorry if some of this didn't flow quite right. I'm the kind of person who has a ton of ideas floating around in my head and they don't always come out in the right order.. lol.

 

[Pako]

Wow...the scriptures about the Laviathan and the Behemoth are pretty awesome.

I mean, this is the Lord Your God talking directly to Job describing these beasts like it's common knowlege.... Cool

Thanks for sharing that Jordan...

But on the Ark?

 

[Mr P]

hey pako whats them 3 numbers at the end of your post count 😈 😈 😈

 

[TATINEE]

Originally posted by mr persistance
hey pako whats them 3 numbers at the end of your post count 😈 😈 😈

ooooh, i didn't even notice that. good thing i have this handy dandy cross charm around my neck..

 

[Schumy]

:fdevil: :fdevil: :fdevil:

 

[Pako]

I also find it interesting that no one has entertained the thought about the common "basic truths" or a "way of life" that are found in so many legal religions. I'm not talking about eternal salvation, just the descriptions of good and evil, and how each of should live and treat one another.

Are the prophets from all these different religions getting inspiration from the same main divine source?

Are we, as a noble and ego driven society, too ignorant to see that what we try to lable and define is too far beyond our comprehension for our feable little minds to even begin to realize the magnitude of what we try to lable?

I just have too many questions and not enough answers to conform to anyone legal religion. I feel, trust, and need Gods direction in my life on a daily basis... Well, except for the past couple of months and it's been horible thinking I can handle it on my own... That I know is real, and the relationship I have with God is real... everything else is just our little minds trying to put a ruler to something that's not measurable.

Oh and while we're on the Religious topic, who here believe's that we're alone in the universe? Are there E.T's?

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by mr persistance
hey pako whats them 3 numbers at the end of your post count 😈 😈 😈

I saw that coming... Muwaahaahahaha

 

[Mr P]

Originally posted by Pako
who here believe's that we're alone in the universe? Are there E.T's?

NANU , NANU !

 

[Saleen Man]

I strongly believe in the bible, and completely back up everything Jordan has said. And...........
This is most likely going to cause more heated discussion, but that's good right?
How about the Rapture?? Has anyone brought this up yet? I believe in the Rapture, and I believe that it's not too far away. How bout the Anti-Christ? I also believe that he will be showing up soon.
Lets hear what everyone has to say about this...............

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by Saleen Man
I strongly believe in the bible, and completely back up everything Jordan has said. And...........
This is most likely going to cause more heated discussion, but that's good right?
How about the Rapture?? Has anyone brought this up yet? I believe in the Rapture, and I believe that it's not too far away. How bout the Anti-Christ? I also believe that he will be showing up soon.
Lets hear what everyone has to say about this...............

don't know anything about it ......must have missed that bio lecture

 

[Mr P]

Originally posted by Saleen Man
How bout the Anti-Christ? I also believe that he will be showing up soon.

no way man ! u sure and i thought omen v the awakening was the final chapter ojk

 

[Wity]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper page 1 post 1
...I think a religion thread would be great...a way for people to discuss and religion and philosophical questions-- you know, the ones you think about while staring at the ceiling when you can't sleep.

Religion was probably invented by some geezer staring up at his ceiling because he could not sleep, and ever since then has caused more deaths bloodshed wars and misery than anything else and continues to do so today. There is no need for it in todays world, it is the worst invention know to man. and thats not my opinion it's fact.

Everyone is agnostic as no one knows for sure yet the wise are really non caring agnostics as you will have to be dead first to find heaven or live a bloody long life to find the truth.

Which brings me to my sales pitch.....

Instead of wasting life following pointless ancient beliefs based on merely the written words of some get some overtime in and buy a whole of life insurance policy from me, I'll set it up so as the proceeds go to paying for chronogenics maybe if it works and your revitalised in a thousand years or so you may then find the truth.

 

[TATINEE]

Originally posted by Pako
Oh and while we're on the Religious topic, who here believe's that we're alone in the universe? Are there E.T's?

I'm not sure. I think it's arrogant to say that we're definitely the smartest creatures who exist, but I can't say for sure that there's other life out there.

 

[TATINEE]

Originally posted by Saleen Man
How about the Rapture?? Has anyone brought this up yet? I believe in the Rapture, and I believe that it's not too far away. How bout the Anti-Christ? I also believe that he will be showing up soon.
Lets hear what everyone has to say about this...............

Oh boy.. I agree with both of your statements. Have any of you ever read the series "Left Behind"? If you did, you might remember that one of the preceding incidents that occured right before the Rapture was many countries agreeing to use the same currency. Was I the only one a bit freaked out to hear that this happened not too long ago? lol

 

[vat_man]

Um, hasn't the human race been prophesising the end of the world for a couple of thousand years now?

 

[Jordan]

Originally posted by TATINEE


Oh boy.. I agree with both of your statements. Have any of you ever read the series "Left Behind"? If you did, you might remember that one of the preceding incidents that occured right before the Rapture was many countries agreeing to use the same currency. Was I the only one a bit freaked out to hear that this happened not too long ago? lol

Yes, I have read the Left Behind books as well! An excellent series! :thumbsup:

 

[TAFJonathan]

Originally posted by Jordan
Well, I think the Jewish religion caused our different opinions. I don't consider Jesus "just a prophet", I consider him the one true Messiah. To believe everything in the Bible is true takes faith, just as much as it does to believe that life on earth evolved from a few small living cells.

How have the stories in the New Testament been "chronologically" proven that they didn't happen?

I don't know all of the details, but I can tell you some...

First of all, (and the church says this, as well), it is unclear as to whether ANY of the authors of the gospels as we know them (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc.) truly existed. These are the canon gospels, two of which were written by an unknown entity now known as "pseudo-Matthew" ("The Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew). Over the past 1200 years, the church has been constantly eliminating and reviewing gospels becuase many of them aren't verified.

It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to allow an entire religion to be told what Jesus did and didn't do by people who never knew or saw him. None of the gospel authors knew Jesus, the ones that could based their information on information from evangelists and discipiles, which makes those gospels at best 3rd party sources, and John lived not earlier than 100BC, which means Jesus had been dead for 60-70 years before he was even BORN. That means that John's gospels are very possibly speculatory theory. The eliminated 7 gospels in 600BC. In the late 1980s and 90s a group of Christian scholars met in Vatican. They became affectionatley known as "the God Squad". They basically poured through literature to discern what Jesus REALLY did, as opposed to all that is said in the New Testament.

I could go on for a while, and there is lots I don't know, but I hope thats good enough for now.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper


I don't know all of the details, but I can tell you some...

First of all, (and the church says this, as well), it is unclear as to whether ANY of the authors of the gospels as we know them (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc.) truly existed. These are the canon gospels, two of which were written by an unknown entity now known as "pseudo-Matthew" ("The Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew). Over the past 1200 years, the church has been constantly eliminating and reviewing gospels becuase many of them aren't verified.

It is ridiculous, in my opinion, to allow an entire religion to be told what Jesus did and didn't do by people who never knew or saw him. None of the gospel authors knew Jesus, the ones that could based their information on information from evangelists and discipiles, which makes those gospels at best 3rd party sources, and John lived not earlier than 100BC, which means Jesus had been dead for 60-70 years before he was even BORN. That means that John's gospels are very possibly speculatory theory. The eliminated 7 gospels in 600BC. In the late 1980s and 90s a group of Christian scholars met in Vatican. They became affectionatley known as "the God Squad". They basically poured through literature to discern what Jesus REALLY did, as opposed to all that is said in the New Testament.

I could go on for a while, and there is lots I don't know, but I hope thats good enough for now.

Well, lets not forget the Gospels were "Inspired" by God. That's not third party info, that's direct info......but one would have to believe this to accept it as fact.

 

[TAFJonathan]

Originally posted by Pako


Well, lets not forget the Gospels were "Inspired" by God. That's not third party info, that's direct info......but one would have to believe this to accept it as fact.

See, that there is a bit fishy, as that would make the authors of the gospels prophets...which I don't believe is the intention.

 

[Jon]

I am not a big religion guy but I do believe in God. I have read the Bible and still do. I do not go to church because first off I don't have the time but if I did I would go every Sunday.


Thought I would add that in to everyone elses' posts.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper


See, that there is a bit fishy, as that would make the authors of the gospels prophets...which I don't believe is the intention.

I thought the Bible was the "Word of God"?

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by Pako


I thought the Bible was the "Word of God"?

As we know it, over what span of time did the conception and publication of the Bible take place?

k, I don't know, but it was many, many, many generations. Given that, if the Bible doesn't have one contradiction in it, how did everyone keep their notes straight? Unless they were, words inspiried by God....

 

[TAFJonathan]

Never is there any claim that I know of that the new testament is the work of god. The old testament was delivered to Moses, but the New Testament was WRITTEN by those authors. At least that's my understanding of it.

 

[Pako]

Originally posted by Stealth Viper
Never is there any claim that I know of that the new testament is the work of god. The old testament was delivered to Moses, but the New Testament was WRITTEN by those authors. At least that's my understanding of it.

Humm... Interesting... Didn't Paul write most of the new testament? Like 13 different books?