1/3 of X360s fail supposedly....

ROAD_DOGG33J · Jun 25, 2007

Dave A
Ohh look at that disk scratching test, 3 out of 9 we're scratched in the livingroom environemnt. I do believe that's a 33.3% fault rate. It's also interesting that hafer denying that the XBox360 can scratch disks, they later admitted it could when used for long periods of time.

I think anyone who trys to deny that the 360 is a faulty product has some seriously bad blinkers over there eyes.

Actually those are 360's that have scratched discs before.

Dave A · Jun 25, 2007

I know, I was being funny wit the whole 33.3% fault rate. The rate is still high though, and the fact that they've gone form "no such problem exists" to"it can happen" is a U-turn.

ROAD_DOGG33J · Jun 25, 2007

Dave A
I know, I was being funny wit the whole 33.3% fault rate. The rate is still high though, and the fact that they've gone form "no such problem exists" to"it can happen" is a U-turn.

Should have figured

Anyway, I hope people will be made more aware of the problems and Microsoft will actually take care of the them, instead of making money on them.

Joey D · Jun 25, 2007

Digital-Nitrate
Joey keeps saying over and over again that MS should have idiot proofed the thing... which suggests that with some exceptions, only idiots will make the X360 fail... which is quite clearly not the case unless he is prepared to call most everyone here who have had serious problems with their X360 an idot, as well as those on other gaming sites, and every one of the million or so users who have also had serious problems with their X360, but apparently are not idiots when it comes to using their Wii and PS3.

Maybe you should look up the term idiot proofing before you go on some rant about it. I'm saying MS should have made is so you didn't have to care for it as much as people like myself do to keep it running. I'm not calling everyone with problems an idiot :rolleyes:

.

And if you bothered to read anything I was saying you can clearly see that I am saying Sony did a better job designing the PS3 to cope with the strain of people who just care marginal care of their stuff.

If these seems a bit over the top then sorry, I'm just sick of the senseless bashing on the 360 around these forums and I'm tired of people thinking I'm a total 360 fanboy (which suggest you haven't read any of my posts). Lets make this crystal clear...I think the 360 has a design flaw that allows it to break when not treated with the utmost care. MS should have done a better job idiot proofing the thing so people who weren't over zealous caretakers didn't have problems. But I do think that if you know something has issues and you bought the thing then you should take all the care you can of it so it will last you.

Eric. · Jun 25, 2007

Digital-Nitrate
BTW: There was an article written about a month ago, I don't remember who published it, about some owners of failed X360 units that where sent new X360 as replacements, but because of that, they lost all their downloaded content.

That shouldn't have happened. You are supposed to just send the console in, you keep the HDD and other stuff. Unless they had a hard drive failure?

Joey D · Jun 25, 2007

Ebiggs
That shouldn't have happened. You are supposed to just send the console in, you keep the HDD and other stuff. Unless they had a hard drive failure?

It's people not taking out there stuff before they send it in, www.xbox.com is full of people complaining about this. Frankly I think you are dumb if you don't make sure you have everything you need off the thing before you send it to get fixed. I haven't heard of very many HDD failures but I wouldn't doubt they do happen since even on my computer I've had HDD failures before.

Eric. · Jun 25, 2007

From my experience, the "tech" "support" (used very, very, loosely, both terms), has always made sure that I understood to only ship the console. The instructions that come in the shipping box also say to remove all accessories, etc.

Joey D · Jun 25, 2007

And you wonder why I say MS needed to idiot proof their systems more.

Digital-Nitrate · Jun 25, 2007

Joey D
Maybe you should look up the term idiot proofing before you go on some rant about it.

Oddly enough, that's what I was thinking should have been said to you each time you went on ranting in post after post about how MS should have idiot proofed the X360 and that its largely the customers fault if it malfunctions. I'm curious though, where did you look up that term "Idiot Proof" in the first place, and what did it tell you it meant?

I think you'll find most references to that "term" refer to products and ideas that only "idiots" would have a problem with.

I'm saying MS should have made is so you didn't have to care for it as much as people like myself do to keep it running.

First of all, that's very different then saying it should be idiot proof. Second of all, as has already been discussed numerous times, people who have had problems with their X360's claim they have taken very good care of it. Are your claims more valid then theirs?

It has also been brought to your attention that you're basing your own personal experience to conclude that if everyone took care of their X360 as you do most of these problems would not exist. That is largely why you have encountered so much opposition in this thread. If you owned a Yugo that never broke down because you treated it with kit gloves, would you also then say that the only problem with the Yugo is that they didn't make it idiot proof? I think Scaff’s previous comments in post #39 ring quite true... and I agree with him in that you are likely their most favorite customer.

Joey D
I am saying Sony did a better job designing the PS3 to cope with the strain of people who just care marginal care of their stuff.

Well first you were saying it was due to poor upkeep, but even using the word marginal, once again, you continue to suggest that much of the problems with the X360 are the customers fault.

Even to suggest that many of these problems are due to the marginal or less than marginal care - thus the fault of the user not the manufacturer, flies in the face of much of the testimonial evidence already out there.

The fact that apparently you are one of the 67% that have not had a problem with their X360 doesn’t necessarily mean its because of the way you treat it, because there are those that claim, just as you do, that they take extra precautions and still there unit failed.

Claiming that the X360 is a piece of junk and the worst product ever designed is just as bad as sugar-coating the obvious flaws in the design and or manufacturing of the X360 and pointing the finger of blame on the users, suggesting as you have, that these problems can be prevented with quality care.

What I'm not understanding is why have you posted 26 times in this thread, far more than anyone else, basically coming to the same conclusions each time and even using the same "idiot proof" excuse three separate times despite several people pointing out flaws in the design and personal accounts of having taken appropriate care of their X360s and still having it fail or scratch discs? You have already admitted not even knowing or understanding some of the things, like improper soldering, which can cause problems as seen with many of the X360's so why then are you so set on continually repeating your opinion that many of these problems are the fault of the users? After all, you already made your opinion known in your first post.

Tenacious D · Jun 26, 2007

I knew about the 360 failure rate before I bought my Elite.

I knew I was playing Russian Roulette.

I treated my 360 better than I treated any electronic device that I ever owned, although I did make sure that I played the heck out of the demos I got to make sure if it croaked, it was sooner rather than later.

Sure enough, it croaked sooner.

I think Joey is just another MS tool.

McLaren · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
MS should have done a better job idiot proofing the thing so people who weren't over zealous caretakers didn't have problems. But I do think that if you know something has issues and you bought the thing then you should take all the care you can of it so it will last you.

It does NOT matter how well you take care of it! You can NOT prevent that solder joint from cracking! Get this through your head!

That joint causes 98% of the failures. Everyone who's had the balls to take the X360 apart found that as the problem and offer no-guarantee fixes for it.
You can not prevent an internal solder joint failure of the system, no matter how hard you take care of it. It happens on its own regardless of you trying to prevent it. The only thing you can do is try to keep the X360 cool, but with the heat it can produce, you just delay the joint.

Hugo Boss · Jun 26, 2007

Joey, if the new stairs in your house collapses after a few months, do you blame yourself then because you might suffer obesity? Although I'm no expert, I personally think there must have been something wrong with the design from the start or the stairs weren't properly installed.

It's praiseworthy that you take more than enough care of your 360, but you can't blame others for something that Microsoft did wrong before a customer even touched it.

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

Tenacious D
I think Joey is just another MS tool.

Right

. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you talk about someone.

But whatever this debate has gone on long enough, I feel that people should be to blame for having their stuff fail. Whatever it's no longer important.

McLaren · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
Right . Maybe you should get your facts straight before you talk about someone.

But whatever this debate has gone on long enough, I feel that people should be to blame for having their stuff fail. Whatever it's no longer important.

So, if you buy a tire for your Blazer, and it blows causing you to wreck, you're going to blame yourself without checking to see if the tire was faulty?
'Cause that's what you're saying since the tire is part of your stuff.

Honestly, that's a stupid way of thinking. You're going to say every X360 that died, died because of their owner, and not a broken solder joint?

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

If I bought a tire and it blew out I would wager that I had something to do with it unless it was a fault in the rubber compound itself. Most of the time the tires will wear out due to improper inflation and just poor care. I treated my first set of tires poorly and had a blow out. I'm almost 100% certain the cause was me not checking the air pressure.

I'm not saying that the 360's problem is the sole responsibility of the user. I'm just saying that I'm willing to bet a large majority of the problems are caused from people not treating their system like they should...even though it requires 10 times the amount of care then say a PS3. This is a design flaw, but the customers are at fault for not recognizing this when they buy the system. It's been over a year, you should know about the problems, if you still choose to buy the system and treat it without the extra care that is obliviously need then it's your problem...not MS.

Basically what I'm trying to say is it's the customers fault for buying a poorly designed system and not giving it extra care when they know about the problems. If they would stop buying the 360's then MS would have to fix it. This isn't me being a tool of MS, it's coming from someone who works in a retail store. If anything I'm a tool of pure economic Darwinism.

Azuremen · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D, you claim people here have massive Sony bias and such. All I see is a massive MS bias from you.

My Super Nintendo, that I got used, still works fine. Its been dropped, has two holes in it, been stored in dusty conditions, used on carpet for years, and I've had it for over a decade. My NES is the same way, and my GameCube has had no problems. My used PS2 that has been dismantled several times works fine still, just needed to clean the laser. Its been dropped several times, used on carpet, etc. Hell, I had an NES unit work for years after it was thrown 40 feet into a snow bank.

In my 16 years of working with gaming consoles, I have never seen anything like this for a failure rate. Consoles should be fairly durable, not something you have to treat like a glass doll. The benchmark for reliability is Nintendo, and I have only heard of one person ever having a problem, and that was on the Gamecube and was a DRE. I have seen no one having issues with the Wii or PS3, but several people I know have XBOX360 issues. They treat all their consoles the same way, which is good, off the floor, ventilated (one guy even has an extra fan blowing on his BOX all the time), but they are having errors.

This soldering joint error is a major thing, and not exactly user error, to say the least. Its a critical design flaw, that really should not have been over looked. It sounds like something the Chinese would do.

And before you claim I am an XBOX hater, realize that I loathe Sony to an EXTREME degree, actually like the games on the XBOX and am considering getting one in the near future... once this whole massive failure rate thing is over.

EDIT: Your claims that people just aren't treating it right are total BS. Products manufactured for the mass market should be designed to be reliable under normal usage environments. This is a basic for testing and design. It would be like selling a car that MUST have the oil changed at exactly 3000 miles, with exactly 10W-30, of so and so brand, or it will fail. Products should not be designed for that small fraction that treats their product perfectly. Otherwise we'd all have cars that run like Italian supercars... picky and erratic...

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

Azuremen
Joey D, you claim people here have massive Sony bias and such. All I see is a massive MS bias from you.

Are you serious? I've said countless times in this thread alone the PS3 is better then the 360. I like my PS2 and I can't wait to get a PS3. I'm not biased against anything, if the PS3 was doing the same thing I would be saying the exact same thing.

In my 16 years of working with gaming consoles, I have never seen anything like this for a failure rate. Consoles should be fairly durable, not something you have to treat like a glass doll.

And if you've read anything I said you would see I said MS SHOULD have designed the 360 to be more durable then it is, but they didn't. I beginning to feel people are only paying attention to what they want to. I've said numerous times in this thread alone that MS should have "idiot proofed" (meaning: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idiot-proof) their console better.

I don't excuse MS but I don't excuse the customers either.

EDIT: Your claims that people just aren't treating it right are total BS. Products manufactured for the mass market should be designed to be reliable under normal usage environments. This is a basic for testing and design. It would be like selling a car that MUST have the oil changed at exactly 3000 miles, with exactly 10W-30, of so and so brand, or it will fail. Products should not be designed for that small fraction that treats their product perfectly. Otherwise we'd all have cars that run like Italian supercars... picky and erratic...

For the LOVE OF GOD read what I am writing, I'm saying people aren't treating the console the way it is SUPPOSED to be treated. It's supposed to be treat a lot more carefully then any other system. Which is a "bad" on MS.

Eric. · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
If I bought a tire and it blew out I would wager that I had something to do with it unless it was a fault in the rubber compound itself. Most of the time the tires will wear out due to improper inflation and just poor care. I treated my first set of tires poorly and had a blow out. I'm almost 100% certain the cause was me not checking the air pressure.

I'm not saying that the 360's problem is the sole responsibility of the user. I'm just saying that I'm willing to bet a large majority of the problems are caused from people not treating their system like they should...even though it requires 10 times the amount of care then say a PS3. This is a design flaw, but the customers are at fault for not recognizing this when they buy the system. It's been over a year, you should know about the problems, if you still choose to buy the system and treat it without the extra care that is obliviously need then it's your problem...not MS.

Basically what I'm trying to say is it's the customers fault for buying a poorly designed system and not giving it extra care when they know about the problems. If they would stop buying the 360's then MS would have to fix it. This isn't me being a tool of MS, it's coming from someone who works in a retail store. If anything I'm a tool of pure economic Darwinism.

So, how are we supposed to prevent our 360s from blowing up? Blow some compressed air in the little holes? Only play for ten minutes, then let it rest for an hour to get back to ambient temperature?

Also, if all of this stuff was required to make the thing last, wouldn't you expect Microsoft to put "WARNING: YOU MUST CLEAN THIS CONSOLE OUT DAILY WITH A CAN OF MICROSOFT XBOX 360 BLOWER COMPRESSED AIR (USE OF OTHER BRANDS/MODELS OF COMPRESSED AIR MAY VOID YOUR WARRANTY)!" or other ridiculous warnings?

I would not be this bent against the fact that 360s are complete junk if they would have just sent me a new console to begin with. Instead, I've put up with two junk refurbs that had already been fixed of a previous problem. Hell, the FAN died on my most recent one. A very simple little electric motor. FAILED. As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft has no business charging anybody for any repair to their console that was not user inflicted (dropping, etc...Not neglecting to try and blow dust out).

On the topic of blowing out dust...Considering the type of heatsink the 360 uses (for the CPU), it most likely is going to collect a lot of dust between the fins, much like my PC's Tuniq Tower does. Thing is, the Tuniq can be cleaned. Microsoft will no longer honor your warranty if you were to try and clean the fins of their heatsink. I think they may all inevitably die from dust building up in the 'sink.

Edit: So if a consumer is not into technology..say, a parent buying it for their preteen, they are supposed to recognize that it comes with a design flaw (obviously knowing nothing about the system besides that it hooks up to their HDTV and plays X360 games) and do the thing you say that will prevent it...?!

...Riiiight.

And to the above post...How are we supposed to treat the console? I don't want to hear what you've been saying all along. I want to hear what the manufacturer tells us to do with out systems...I'm going to guess (not looking for a manual) that it says something about keeping it off the carpet and in a well ventilated place, with the wires not where they can be tripped over or where animals could run through and rip them out of the system/wall.

Azuremen · Jun 26, 2007

Joey, sorry if I didn't read into what you were putting up clearly enough.

Basically, it seems everyone here, my self included, feels you blame the consumer for the failures. That is how it looks. Consumer should not be held accountable for treating a product how they normally would, when the product tolerances are lower.

Thats what most of us are saying. You make it sound like "Well, the consumer should just take better care of a product that is overly delicate." When they shouldn't.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

Ebiggs
So, how are we supposed to prevent our 360s from blowing up? Blow some compressed air in the little holes? Only play for ten minutes, then let it rest for an hour to get back to ambient temperature?

I guess, I really don't know. I clean mine out weekly and only play for at most 3 hours.

Also, if all of this stuff was required to make the thing last, wouldn't you expect Microsoft to put "WARNING: YOU MUST CLEAN THIS CONSOLE OUT DAILY WITH A CAN OF MICROSOFT XBOX 360 BLOWER COMPRESSED AIR (USE OF OTHER BRANDS/MODELS OF COMPRESSED AIR MAY VOID YOUR WARRANTY)!" or other ridiculous warnings?

They haven't been sued, and in America that's the only way a warning gets put onto something. Sue MS (and you'd probably win) and I bet within 24 hours of a settlement you would see a warning on the product. This is America, there wasn't warnings on coffee until about 10 years ago.

I would not be this bent against the fact that 360s are complete junk if they would have just sent me a new console to begin with. Instead, I've put up with two junk refurbs that had already been fixed of a previous problem. Hell, the FAN died on my most recent one. A very simple little electric motor. FAILED. As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft has no business charging anybody for any repair to their console that was not user inflicted (dropping, etc...Not neglecting to try and blow dust out).

Once again they will keep charging you because they can get away with it, it's pure economics. I'm serious, until someone sues they won't do a damn thing about it.

On the topic of blowing out dust...Considering the type of heatsink the 360 uses (for the CPU), it most likely is going to collect a lot of dust between the fins, much like my PC's Tuniq Tower does. Thing is, the Tuniq can be cleaned. Microsoft will no longer honor your warranty if you were to try and clean the fins of their heatsink. I think they may all inevitably die from dust building up in the 'sink.

I wouldn't doubt it at all.

Basically, it seems everyone here, my self included, feels you blame the consumer for the failures. That is how it looks. Consumer should not be held accountable for treating a product how they normally would, when the product tolerances are lower.

I knew the 360 had major issues when I bought it a year ago, you should research something before you buy it. If you see the reports and they say there are issues, you shouldn't buy it.

Eric. · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
Once again they will keep charging you because they can get away with it, it's pure economics. I'm serious, until someone sues they won't do a damn thing about it.

Luckily, I don't get charged a bit for any of their problems. With this being my third return, Xbox Support forwarded my case to Microsoft (who told me Xbox Support is not owned by MS). Now I have an agent named Alex who gave me her extension number, so I call her if I have any problems. The 360 I'm getting now was a free, out of warranty, replacement. She said I could get a free one with just a 90day warranty, or pay (forgot how much...$60 maybe?) to get one with a year warranty. She said if either died when it went out of warranty to call her and we'll do the same thing again. So, it looks like I get free X360s for life.

Click to expand...

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

Ebiggs
Luckily, I don't get charged a bit for any of their problems. With this being my third return, Xbox Support forwarded my case to Microsoft (who told me Xbox Support is not owned by MS). Now I have an agent named Alex who gave me her extension number, so I call her if I have any problems. The 360 I'm getting now was a free, out of warranty, replacement. She said I could get a free one with just a 90day warranty, or pay (forgot how much...$60 maybe?) to get one with a year warranty. She said if either died when it went out of warranty to call her and we'll do the same thing again. So, it looks like I get free X360s for life.

Well at least they aren't giving you a hassle about it...it could always be worse.

Digital-Nitrate · Jun 26, 2007

Azuremen
Joey, sorry if I didn't read into what you were putting up clearly enough.

Basically, it seems everyone here, my self included, feels you blame the consumer for the failures. That is how it looks.

You read Joey's comments correctly:

Joey D
But whatever this debate has gone on long enough, I feel that people should be to blame for having their stuff fail. Whatever it's no longer important.

Joey D
Are you serious? I've said countless times in this thread alone the PS3 is better then the 360. I like my PS2 and I can't wait to get a PS3. I'm not biased against anything, if the PS3 was doing the same thing I would be saying the exact same thing.

I believe the point they were making is not that you dislike the PS3, but rather you have a very biased opinion about the reliability and quality of the design of the X360 and have gone WAY out of your way (31 posts and counting - despite claiming that you have had enough of this topic on more than one occasion) just to continue stating the same opinion over and over again and largely blaming consumers for the majority of problems with the X360 (despite also claiming you don’t like to play the blame game)... I believe that is why you may be getting labeled as being blindly biased.

Joey D · Jun 26, 2007

I'm not biased, I just think people should take responsibility instead of blaming the company for the problem. I've said MS didn't design the 360 correctly, but I said it's the customers fault for not recognizing the reports of an unreliable system. If a company builds something that is crap it's the customers fault for buying it while knowing it is crap. You know, I know, the whole gaming world knows there are problems with the 360, yet people still buy them.

And I say the debates gone on long enough but people still keep directing comments at me so I answer them.

Eric. · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
Well at least they aren't giving you a hassle about it...it could always be worse.

The first time contacting them had us (my mom and I) on the phone for a couple of hours, and got nothing accomplished. The foreign "tech support" kept giving us the run-around of asking a question, putting us on hold to talk to their supervisor, coming back to ask the same question, repeat. One person told me that the 360 does not have a network card. "Tech" support?

That was before they automated the number where you talk to Max. My second return was fairly straightforward because of that.

Dave A · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
I'm not biased, I just think people should take responsibility instead of blaming the company for the problem. I've said MS didn't design the 360 correctly, but I said it's the customers fault for not recognizing the reports of an unreliable system. If a company builds something that is crap it's the customers fault for buying it while knowing it is crap. You know, I know, the whole gaming world knows there are problems with the 360, yet people still buy them.

And I say the debates gone on long enough but people still keep directing comments at me so I answer them.

The problem isn't so much the fact that there's more chance you're console will last longer if taken better care of, it's the fact that you claim the 360 is not a faulty product. A faulty product is a product that can not tolerate being used how it is supposed to be used, yet you also claim the 360 is not built as well as it should have been. Also, Microsoft admit that using the cosole for a few hours straight can cause it to scratch disks. Now I'm sorry, but you show me one other console that could not tolerate being used for 4 hours without failing? I think you'll struggle. The bottom line is, the 360 is a games console, but it cannot tolerate what games consoles are typically expected to tolerate, thus, the product is not upto the standard it should be. The result of it's intolerence to use is that it has software failures, scratches disks, melts it's own solder joints and so on, hence the product is faulty. You shouldn't have to blow canned air into it to make it not blow up in the first year of owning it, you shouldn't have to play it on a 4ft deep concrete floor for it to not scratch disks, you shouldn't have to have a power fan pointed at it while it's on just so it doesn't have a software crash etc.

Sureboss · Jun 26, 2007

Joey D
While I do believe there are a bunch of failures I do not believe they are all Microsoft's fault. I see the way some people treat their gaming systems and frankly I'm amazed they lasted as long as they did. Covered in about a 1/4 of dust, sitting on the carpet with games covering the exhaust ports on top of the console, cats laying on the console itself, etc.

Having today rented out Battlefield 2: Modern Combat for the PS2 I was astounded at the state of the disc, the game worked fine but it looked like a cat had used it for a scratching post. Why do people do that? It's not that hard to look after a disc or console, especially if it's something you've spent £300+ ($600+) on is it? I owned a 360 and it died, no fault of my own might I add, 20 minutes and it 'burnt out'. I didn't bother with a replacement for it and got a refund, my PS2 still does what I want at the moment. I do plan on getting a PS3 at some point as there are some tasty games that look like tickling my fancy (Elder Scrolls, Assassin's Creed, GTA4, GT5, Pes7, etc, wrong forum I know) but my point is, that if you own something like that surely you want to look after it?

TopHat · Jun 26, 2007

Hey Joey, is THIS the consumers fault?

Digital-Nitrate · Jun 26, 2007

Tenacious D
Well, my 360 Elite is only six weeks old, in a well ventilated place in front of the entertainment system, and yesterday the DVD drive crapped out. It might as well have bricked.

You are not alone, there are quite a few videos on YouTube showing X360 Elites with failing disc drives. Here are a couple, one which was placed vertically and one which was placed horizontally, and both show no obvious signs of poor care:

DOA XBox 360 Elite #2
by DirkElderwood posted on April 29, 2007

Since people are already calling my other video "Fake" here is another. I have no reason to fake this video, I was upset about the whole thing because I have already returned 4 XBox 360's over the past 5 months because of issues similar to this.

In this video the disk actually loaded, so that should lay to rest anyone saying the disk was a fake/scratched/blue-ray or anything else. Anyone saying the disk was probably scratched is wrong. I wasn't about to stick a $70 game in that machine for demonstration purposes.

I have already returned the busted Elite to Wal-Mart and exchanged it for another one and it's working just fine.

Some of you may notice the cables for the Wii next to the Xbox and the Wii System in the glare on the TV screen sitting on my couch. I helped create and currently run the website www.miiboard.com If anyone thinks my credibility is bad, just ask anyone on the forums there.

My Dead Xbox 360 Elite
by DustinTRIP posted on June 24, 2007

My Xbox 360 Elites disk tray is ****ed up and won't play games. I recorded this before I sent it back to Microsoft.

McLaren · Jun 27, 2007

Joey D
I'm not saying that the 360's problem is the sole responsibility of the user. I'm just saying that I'm willing to bet a large majority of the problems are caused from people not treating their system like they should...even though it requires 10 times the amount of care then say a PS3.

Then you're going to lose that bet every time. What don't you understand about this? 98% of the failures are caused from a solder joint. YOU CAN NOT PREVENT IT! Therefore, the failures are not the customer's fault when the joint fails.

This is a design flaw, but the customers are at fault for not recognizing this when they buy the system. It's been over a year, you should know about the problems, if you still choose to buy the system and treat it without the extra care that is obliviously need then it's your problem...not MS.

Are you insane? We're talking about a game console here, not a Chinese car.

It is not the customer's responsibility to keep a soldering joint from failing after 6 months of use, and should never be. Why? Because that is something the manufacturer, in this case Microsoft should be preventing because they are the ones making it. They put in a piss poor joint, therefore, it is MS' fault. None of us asked for a crappy joint in a machine like this, and should not be paying $400 to have one.

Basically what I'm trying to say is it's the customers fault for buying a poorly designed system and not giving it extra care when they know about the problems. If they would stop buying the 360's then MS would have to fix it. This isn't me being a tool of MS, it's coming from someone who works in a retail store. If anything I'm a tool of pure economic Darwinism.

No, it is Microsoft's fault for MAKING a poorly designed system. NOT everyone knows about that the problem stems from that joint. If they did, Xbox 360 sells would be very low. NOBODY buys a gaming console expecting it to fail, and when they realize the problem is a solder joint, half of them, and obviously yourself, don't even know what that is or why it cracks.

And when are you going to get it through your THICK SKULL? YOU CAN NOT PREVENT A SOLDER JOINT FROM BREAKING IN THE XBOX 360!

1/3 of X360s fail supposedly....

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