1/3 of X360s fail supposedly....

[Joey D]

Which is either the fault of the heat sink or the concave design, and probably not the user.

I still say you can greatly reduce the chances through care in use. I probably would have had a problem by now if I would have left it on for days straight and what not. I realize there are problem, thus I take extra care because I don't have an extra $400 to spend on a new unit.

I think this is a problem with people now a days, it's everyones fault except their own.

I once had my PS2 on for over a week straight, running GT4 B-Spec (start a race before I went to bed, start a race before I went to school, and start a race when I got home). And something you should know about the circumstances at the time: I had kept my PS2 in a wooden lock box facing out the open doorway, all encased within an entertainment center (I thought it looked cool) with a closed glass door. I once measured how hot it got in the box after an hour, and it was around 80 degrees. But the PS2 never fussed.
Furthermore, I know for a fact that many people on this forum put their PS3s through their paces running things like F@H, leaving them on for multiple nights straight and whatnot. Yet I know of none that reported problems. And that was all with first gen. hardware.
So don't tell me that the 360 overheats because people put it on carpet or played it too long or whatever. It overheats because it is poorly designed, either internally or in overall shape, period. And one of the main reasons it fails, I don't think would be too outlandish to say, is because it overheats.

Just because you can leave a PS2/3 on for weeks doesn't mean it's good for it or you should do it. I would never put anything through that kind of abuse. It's just me personally but I over care for everything because I can't afford to keep buying things since I'm not making the kind of money I used to. So if I can just do some preventative upkeep it's all good. I do it with everything, my truck, my computer, my video game systems, you name it and I do it.

 

[Race Idiot]

Now, from what I've read, it's 90% of the time caused by the solder (sp?) joint breaking and losing connection within the X360. So really Joey, no matter how well you pamper it, if that joint cracks, it's not your fault. It's MS' because they did not produce a full-proof or near full-proof way from keeping the joint together after 6-12 months of use. Nobody should be on a 4th console after 3 years on the market.

If thats the main major fault thats pretty bad, it's not like it's a design fault but something in the actual manufacturing process.

A simmilar thing happened with IBM desktop hardware, where the capacitors were crap and they would just just blow pretty much anytime. IBM pretty much dished out replacement motherboards for about 3 years past the normal warranty for that, well for corporate customers I guess.

 

[Tornado]

I think this is a problem with people now a days, it's everyones fault except their own.

I don't understand: You acknowledge that there is a problem, yet you continue to hold the belief that most of the damage done to the system is because of owner negligence. If that was the case, why, may I ask, haven't there been that many more obvious examples of poor system design? Early PS2s notwithstanding, there is really no example of a system that slots into the 360s criteria (low price, middle-powered) that shows the same thing. The Dreamcast was quite a reliable piece of work and considerably powerful when it launched, and I know personally many people (myself included) who have run the damn things into the ground before anything goes on them. Those could be bought for a dime a dozen. The same applies to the Gamecube for the past couple of years. Your theory that it is the owners at fault for a good portion of 360 failures simply doesn't pan out, either now or in the past.

I would never put anything through that kind of abuse.

You see, the problem is that it isn't really abuse. For example, the PS3 was clearly designed to be allowed to be left on for considerable amounts of time, or F@H wouldn't be endorsed by Sony.
And you wouldn't really need to worry about buying a new 360 because of failures if it was generally better designed in the first place.

 

[Joey D]

I don't understand: You acknowledge that there is a problem, yet you continue to hold the belief that most of the damage done to the system is because of owner negligence.

Yes I still do believe many of the problems stem for owner neglect. But I do freely admit (if you look back at my posts) that MS should have made the system more idiot proof and there are going to be problems beyond someones control. I never said the sole cause is owner abuse.

You see, the problem is that it isn't really abuse. For example, the PS3 was clearly designed to be allowed to be left on for considerable amounts of time, or F@H wouldn't be endorsed by Sony.
And you wouldn't really need to worry about buying a new 360 because of failures if it was generally better designed in the first place.

Buy two 360's, take care of one and abuse the other one and tell me which one lasts and which one doesn't. You actually don't even need to do this experiment since the results are overly obvious.

I don't know what F@H is, but clearly the PS3 was designed with being left on longer then the 360, I don't doubt that. Plus for $200 more I would expect you would be getting a better system. I don't doubt that the PS3 is probably better then the 360 in design (I don't care for it because of the size but that's besides the point). The 360 isn't made for being left on for days on end, if you don't like that then you shouldn't have bought it and just saved more money for the PS3 which I'm guessing is better equipped. I still see no reason for leaving a system on for more then a few hours since your eyes start to hurt and there are more things to do then stare at a TV, but this is my personal opinion...maybe there are people out there with no life that play for 12 hours a day...I don't know.

 

[Race Idiot]

But if the fault is caused by crap soldering from the factory most of the time you have no way whatsoever to prevent that. Especially seing as opening a 360 to rectify something like that (if you had the skills to that is) will pretty much nullify your warranty anyway. So how could that even be your fault?

 

[Joey D]

I don't know what soldering is to be honest.

But I would guess if it's something you can not prevent then it's "thier bad" on MS. If I knew what the soldering was I would probably be able to make a better statement, but I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm talking about.

*errrr wait I had no idea that's how it was spelled. I was also under the impression it was called soddering .

**So ya if that's the case then it is a "their bad" on MS assuming the breaking of it's not caused from extreme heat.

 

[Race Idiot]

I don't know what soldering is to be honest.

But I would guess if it's something you can not prevent then it's "thier bad" on MS. If I knew what the soldering was I would probably be able to make a better statement, but I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm talking about.

*errrr wait I had no idea that's how it was spelled. I was also under the impression it was called soddering .

**So ya if that's the case then it is a "their bad" on MS assuming the breaking of it's not caused from extreme heat.

Basically it's what they use to connect say a microchip to a circuitboard, anything that has a circuitboard inside it has been soldered. You can do it by hand but the 360 is probably done by machines being a mass produced thing.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/a...s_the_true_failure_rate_for_the_xbox_360.html

One possible cause though if the failure rate is higher than the industry average could be thermal stress: the Xbox 360 gets very hot (hear those fans!) and that can lead to stresses on the solder of the chips, eventually leading that solder to crack. Precisely that problem lies behind the failure of Apple's iBook G4 - as shown by some fine Danish detective work (a phrase we don't use often enough).

To be honest it's kinda a shame because i'm realy enjoying forza 2 and I hope I don't have to muck around with sending my faulty xbox off to ms and paying whatever fees just to get it working. Although I have had no trouble with the two that i've owned, it still worries me the amount of heat that the damn thing expels even in a well vented area.

 

[TopHat]

Does you ripping off the top part of a DS count?

That's not dying, thats MURDER.

Also, there is no Sony Mafia....

 

[Joey D]

My guess is MS used the wrong metal to bond everything together with, if that's the case it would be a manufacturing err instead of a design flaw, but I don't know enough about it to make a reasonable guess so I'll just shut up.

 

[DuckRacer]

Umm... does the Wii get anywhere close to as hot as a 360? Although the PS3 gets just as hot or hotter and I've not heard of a problem related to it on a PS3 like I have on a 360.

Well, after you leave the Wii on for a while (half hour), when you touch it, it's very hot. Not egg cooking hot, but damn near. Then again, my 360 isn't hot to the touch nor does it put out a lot of hot air, so I could be a unique case.

I don't know what F@H is,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@home

It essentially pushes the capabilities of the hardware it's being used on for number crunching. Much more taxing compared to running a game or a movie.

Plus for $200 more I would expect you would be getting a better system.

The Wii is $150 cheaper than the 360 and it's far more reliable.

 

[Tornado]

Buy two 360's, take care of one and abuse the other one and tell me which one lasts and which one doesn't. You actually don't even need to do this experiment since the results are overly obvious.

What happens when they both fail?

 

[Joey D]

The F@H looks interesting, clearly Sony had this in mind a while back and built the system to cope with the strain.

On the Wii, one has to remember it does less the the 360 and far less the the PS3 so that might be one reason it's more reliable. I don't know, I have not had any issues with my Wii but then again it's more of a party system for me more then anything.

What happens when they both fail?

I don't think they would to be honest with you.

 

[McLaren]

I think most stuff can be prevented, I mean unless it's a massive internal hardware failure I'm going to guess it's my fault. If it overheats obliviously I've either not kept it ventilated properly or I've been playing it to long. I know you guys are going to say they are meant to be played but everything has limits. I only play the 360 for maybe 5-8 hours a week.

And what on earth do you think causes the 3 lights of death?

That's right, an internal hardware failure because that little joint is not made as well as it should. And as I said, it won't matter how well you take care of your X360, you can not prevent that solder joint from cracking.

 

[Joey D]

Doesn't excess heat cause cracking of the joint? I ask this as a person who doesn't know.

 

[Zrow]

It's a real freakin' shame that Microsoft can't man up, admit what's happening and actually fix people's machines right, because the system itself is great and the Xbox Live network is second to none.

 

[McLaren]

Doesn't excess heat cause cracking of the joint? I ask this as a person who doesn't know.

As Race's quote said, pretty much, and thanks to the heat the X360 likes to make, it causes the stress.
The Elites are supposed to be more reliable, and MS is supposed to have "developed" a new way to try and help keep the console cooler, but so far, there have been Elites dropping just as the Premium and Core.

The problem is that MS, as mentioned, won't acknowledge it, and apparently, have no interest in improving the hardware.

 

[Joey D]

But an increase in the heat can be just as much of the owners fault as MS. If you block the vents which I see many people do of course you are going to get more heat build up. As I've said before MS should have foreseen this and should have idiot proofed the thing.

 

[Tornado]

If you block the vents which I see many people do of course you are going to get more heat build up.

You don't get it. Heat builds up in the system regardless of if the vents are blocked or not, or if the system is on 5 hours a day. The vents release said heat. The problem is that the solder is failing at low thresholds because the design of the system makes it difficult for the heat to dissipate from the area easily, and that the heat from the components makes the solder fail before it can exit the system. The solder probably wasn't designed for high temperatures, and the solders location makes it subject to high temperatures. Which is why it fails even in pampered systems. Fixing the problem would probably prompt a complete redesign, which would admit that there was something wrong with the original design. Blocking the vents probably doesn't help any, but its the bad design that makes the heat stress an issue because the design of the system prevents the heat from exiting the system fast enough.

 

[V1P3R]

I have a friggin room fan blowing at the front or the bottom usually. I honestly don't think it does jack squat.

Just for clairification.. I didn't say fan blowing at the back where the hot air exhausts from.

 

[Joey D]

Meh this is going no where fast, I haven't had any issues and I will continue to baby my system (and I will do the same thing when I get a PS3). I more then likely won't have a problem (knock on wood). I think we've exhausted this debate.

 

[JCE]

I once had my PS2 on for over a week straight, running GT4 B-Spec (start a race before I went to bed, start a race before I went to school, and start a race when I got home). And something you should know about the circumstances at the time: I had kept my PS2 in a wooden lock box facing out the open doorway, all encased within an entertainment center (I thought it looked cool) with a closed glass door. I once measured how hot it got in the box after an hour of playtime to see whether I should take it out of the box when playing it (this was afterwards), and it was 87.2 degrees. But the PS2 never, ever fussed, despite being used in what was essentially a coffin. And it was a 1st revision (SCPH-39001) model.

Thing is I remember when the PS2 came out (I was working parttime at GameStop) and the number one issue that brought back these consoles was not overheating issues--it was the fact that if you sit them vertical it can messup the laser housing (or something related) to prevent you from reading DVD movies or games on DVD.

So don't tell me that the 360 overheats because people put it on carpet or played it too long or whatever. It overheats because it is poorly designed, either internally or in overall shape, period. And one of the main reasons it fails, I don't think would be too outlandish to say, is because it overheats.

The 360 and any other modern console CAN overheat and fail IF the vents are covered--I've seen original PlayStations burnt out because they were on the carpet.

That's right, an internal hardware failure because that little joint is not made as well as it should. And as I said, it won't matter how well you take care of your X360, you can not prevent that solder joint from cracking.

+1 Whats funny to me is they probably used as cheap of a soldering material as possible to try and save the most money possible to prevent a repeat of the original XBOX syndrome--where the system costs $80 more to produce than what you are selling it for.

And I've left my PS2 on for literally a week or more on several occasions and it never overheated. Infact, I'm quite impressed at my PS2 for NOT failing after all these years.

 

[Tornado]

Thing is I remember when the PS2 came out (I was working parttime at GameStop) and the number one issue that brought back these consoles was not overheating issues--it was the fact that if you sit them vertical it can messup the laser housing (or something related) to prevent you from reading DVD movies or games on DVD.

I know. Selling the PS2 so it could go vertical was the #1 stupidest thing Sony ever did with that system. Period.

The 360 and any other modern console CAN overheat and fail IF the vents are covered--I've seen original PlayStations burnt out because they were on the carpet.

I know, but in the 360s case it seems to just be speeding up the process in many cases.

 

[Race Idiot]

Meh this is going no where fast, I haven't had any issues and I will continue to baby my system (and I will do the same thing when I get a PS3). I more then likely won't have a problem (knock on wood). I think we've exhausted this debate.

So you have no idea how the system works but gosh darn its definitely the users fault if it breaks because companies have never ever cheaped out on components before am I rite folks? Or the fact that one component was not installed correctly which would cause the processor to overheat anyway?

There is also the case of a bit of protective foil that covers up the thermal compound so it doesnt get dirty in storage, it's meant to be removed when the heatsink is installed. Thermal compound is meant to transfer the heat from the gpu to the heatsink. Oh look! the protective foil is still on the heatsink probably preventing heat transfer a fair bit! I bet thats the end users fault and not the manufacturers!

Also MS redesigned the said heat sink so it can't have been that great at dispersing heat in the first place.

 

[V1P3R]

Gee... do I dare mention the fans then? lolz

 

[godzilla_GTR]

well im lucky as hell, had my 360 since launch day, have sent it to the other end of the country and had it flashed, and had some L.E.D's installed, and the only thing wrong with it is, i have to place a dvd in it 1st, so the laser can align itself(but this is becouse of a dodgey flahing job), other then that it has NEVER missed a beat apart from the screen going all checkerboard on the dashboard while on LIVE, but that was becouse of my connection and it was fixed as soon as i turned on my controller. So it's been perfect, apart from these incidents which are easily explainable.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Joey keeps saying over and over again that MS should have idiot proofed the thing... which suggests that with some exceptions, only idiots will make the X360 fail... which is quite clearly not the case unless he is prepared to call most everyone here who have had serious problems with their X360 an idot, as well as those on other gaming sites, and every one of the million or so users who have also had serious problems with their X360, but apparently are not idiots when it comes to using their Wii and PS3.

As for F@H, its been around for over six years, and while I have never read any official response from Microsoft on why they have yet to allow Stanford to publish a F@H program for the X360, but I suspect it is that they fear that the strain on the system would crash anyone's X360 running F@H. By comparison, there are hundreds of PS3's that have been running F@H for over 2,000 hours straight since March when Stanford and Sony released the F@H software for the PS3. Even GTP's own F@H group have several members who have been running F@H for several weeks with little or no breaks.

Suggesting that this is mostly or even partially because PS3 owners treat their PS3 better than their X360 is rather disjointed, and one would find it impossible to even prove, while it has already been proved by some individuals who own both and treat both equally that they have had serious problems with their X360, while their PS3 is largely trouble free, even when running something like F@H that pushes the systems close to its capabilities.

Frankly, this doesn't bode well for future advanced game development on the X360, because if it fails from basic use, and MS wont even allow it to run F@H, then no matter what it may or may not be capable of doing, if the design can't handle the processor working extra hard, developers will not be able to tap into its potential.

BTW: There was an article written about a month ago, I don't remember who published it, about some owners of failed X360 units that where sent new X360 as replacements, but because of that, they lost all their downloaded content.

Relating to Duck's personal observations of discovering that his X360 was scratching discs, the following story may be of interest:

On April 14, 2007 the Dutch TV program "Kassa," as a reaction of over a thousand customers complaining about the fact that their Xbox 360 had scratched up their game disks, broadcasted a program in which they revealed a test they had done. The test indicated that some Xbox 360s, equipped with Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology (TSST) DVD players, scratch DVDs spontaneously, even when the Xbox is placed on a stable surface, rendering some games unplayable.

Microsoft attended the Kassa broadcast and provided replacement equipment to the user. Additionally, the Microsoft representative informed Kassa that Microsoft had contacted the 1% of users who reported the problem with the offer of replacing all their game discs and consoles.

In the beginning of June 2007 the European Commission started an investigation into these scratching problems.

 

[JCE]

Game. Set. Match. Thank you Dutch people for sticking to Microsoft!

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

How long is the warranty now? 12 months?

 

[Dave A]

Ohh look at that disk scratching test, 3 out of 9 we're scrathed in the livingroom environemnt. I do believe that's a 33.3% fault rate. It's also interesting that hafer denying that the XBox360 can scratch disks, they later admitted i could when used for long periods of time.

I think anyone who trys to deny that the 360 is a faulty product has some seriously bad blinkers over there eyes.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

How long is the warranty now? 12 months?

Yes, but just three months after Microsoft released a statement saying that they will waive the cost for repairs on all Xbox 360 consoles made before January 1, 2006, and refund any fees already paid, Microsoft discontinued that policy to fix the pre-2006 consoles for free. I'm guessing they were overwhelmed by the number of returns and cumulative costs and decided to turn their backs on those customers.