Do you believe in God?

Touring Mars · May 19, 2009

Hun200kmh
There's one comment I need to make. Your post is uncalled and insulting on anyone that believes not only that there is a God, but also on anyone that believes in the divine nature of Christ, the one you called "cosmic jewish zombie".

I didn't insult anyone, and your post made me think "why did I bother posting in this thread at all". And considered deleting my previous post, since apparently it serves no purpose here.

Anyway, after thinking for a while, I decided to keep it there. And I will not report yours, in fact, there's no need, a super moderator has already posted after you did - without referring to your post - and therefore I think that fact made it clear for me that in gtplanet you can insult others religious beliefs without breaking the AUP.

So, I'll go back to the games and motorsports forums. I understand how the AUP works there, and I agree with the way it is implemented when someone breaks it.

I'm willing to discuss religion and religious beliefs anywhere, except in places where trolling is allowed. So, my intervention here has ended.

Just to clarify, I don't think orimarc's post contravenes the AUP, but I didn't find it particularly comment-worthy. From a personal viewpoint, I enjoy reading well-made posts that have an interesting perspective - like yours - and tend to ignore the cheap shots. It's a shame that the reputation system is no longer functioning, or that we are unable to rate individual posts, because otherwise you would know that people have read and enjoyed your post without having to post a reply just to make that point.

Duke · May 19, 2009

Hun200kmh
Anyway, after thinking for a while, I decided to keep it there. And I will not report yours, in fact, there's no need, a super moderator has already posted after you did - without referring to your post - and therefore I think that fact made it clear for me that in gtplanet you can insult others religious beliefs without breaking the AUP.

I understand your well-thought post, and that image did tread a very fine line. But it was not offered at a direct insult to you (or anyone) on a personal basis. That's why it was allowed to stand.

Northstar3914
Not to take any sides or anything, but this is the part of the forum where the AUP isn't as strictly enforced.

But as the old saying goes "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and stop your bitching"

It is somewhat true that the AUP is less-enforced here due to the high probability of some people getting offended no matter what. However, I don't think you can characterize Hun200kmh's post as "bitching" in any way. He made a reasonable observation in a reasonable tone, and removed himself from an area of the site he no longer enjoys.

I'd say you calling it "bitching" is closer to insulting him than the picture that is aimed at Christianity in general.

orimarc
If an outsider can't explain what your religion is without insulting it...there's something wrong.

An outsider can explain Christianity without insulting it. That image was deliberately worded to highlight the perceived absurdity of all religion, and Christianity in specific.

Omnis · May 19, 2009

Joey D
It's Christianity broken down into a very basic form from an outsider. There are several pictures on the internet that do the same basic thing but for other religion and non-religions alike.

Honestly, if you look at the beliefs of Christianity it really doesn't make to much sense if you take into account what we, as humans, know to be true. Your whole religion is based on a man, who might not have even existed, who was crucified and came back to life...which isn't possible.

It's also still very debatable how accurate religious texts even are because as someone already mentioned they have been translated over and over again, which means information is being changed.

Sorry but Christianity makes perfect sense when you look at the life lessons it teaches. The reason why there are so many different orders of Christianity is because there are different interpretations of history and the lessons. Some people think Christ is God, for instance. As far as I know, Jesus never came back to life as a man. The point is that he ascended to heaven... that he went beyond life. But that's not even the important part of the religion. What's more important is the morals and behaviors (peace, love, non-violence) that Jesus taught while he was alive on earth. If people have beef with that, then frankly I think they have to be either ignorant or pretty messed up.

Either way, it's not very tactful to make fun of religions. Especially when you post a picture in a discussion and add nothing to it.

Sureboss · May 19, 2009

I'll tell you what is funny, and related to the whole Christ thing. Over Easter I asked my boss to resurrect Jesus!

Jesus being the on-line ID of one of our customers.

Joey D · May 19, 2009

Omnis
Sorry but Christianity makes perfect sense when you look at the life lessons it teaches. The reason why there are so many different orders of Christianity is because there are different interpretations of history and the lessons. Some people think Christ is God, for instance. As far as I know, Jesus never came back to life as a man. The point is that he ascended to heaven... that he went beyond life. But that's not even the important part of the religion. What's more important is the morals and behaviors (peace, love, non-violence) that Jesus taught while he was alive on earth. If people have beef with that, then frankly I think they have to be either ignorant or pretty messed up.

Either way, it's not very tactful to make fun of religions. Especially when you post a picture in a discussion and add nothing to it.

I don't think anyone will dispute the morals associated with Christianity are bad. Christianity didn't develop those morals though. Also there is no proof Jesus was ever a real person, however there is evidence to suggest he was a fabricated story to sway the "pagan" believers into accepting Christianity.

Christianity doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to be honest. You worship one god who's three gods as the same time but it's only one god. Part of that god came to earth, managed to die, was put in a tomb for 2 days and supposedly came back to life. Then he walked around for 40 days and magically went into the clouds. Even some of the teachings baffle me because so many Christians either ignore them or just choose to follow them in a completely different way.

And I don't find it tactful for anyone to force their religion on me, I'm not saying you or any other poster is right now but there are always going to be opposing sides. I frankly saw nothing wrong with that picture and it was a description of what an outsider to Christianity would see it as.

Touring Mars · May 19, 2009

Joey D
It's also still very debatable how accurate religious texts even are because as someone already mentioned they have been translated over and over again, which means information is being changed.

It goes well beyond a matter of mere translation - a cursory glance at the history of how the Bible came to exist in its present form reveals that the Bible originated in a culture where written documents were rare to non-existent, and that the current structure and content of the Bible is considerably more modern than the events described within. Everything about the Bible has changed, from its content to its interpretation, and for many reasons. Our modern understanding of what books are doesn't lend itself well to understanding what The Bible is - it didn't have a single author, it wasn't published on a specific date, no-one really knows when various parts were written, and indeed most of it wasn't even "written" in the first instance at all... The Bible is a strange amalgam of oral tradition and sparse documentary evidence, gradually taking shape as a textual document (or set of documents) over hundreds (perhaps several hundreds) of years, with many authors, countless modifications and much ad-hoc refinement as per the needs of the church at the time. No matter what one's feelings are about the moral value of the lessons contained within the modern day texts, there is simply no way that it can be considered as the literal word of God. To think so is to fundamentally misunderstand the rich history of human civilisation and culture, and indeed the history of the Bible itself.

Parnelli Bone · May 19, 2009

I voted "No." I don't believe in the Christian concept of God. It's too limiting, and (as others have no doubt pointed out) the Bible as it appears nowadays is highly edited, far from Christ's original messages. Nor do I believe in atheism. There's gotta be something else more powerful than us. I do believe there are some supreme, unseen forces. I also believe we are all a part of "God"...all of us, right now, all the time. Everything (bad and good) are all a part of God. Heaven and Hell are nothing but mental concepts of how we're living our life right now at this moment (not places we go after death). The Christian concept of a "seperation" between us and God is ludicrous, and makes it seem as though we shouldn't enjoy anything in our life here on Earth.

Also, God is not a "him", nor a "her. God is an "it". :sly:

A supreme energy force.

Wolfe · May 19, 2009

Omnis
Sorry but Christianity makes perfect sense when you look at the life lessons it teaches. The reason why there are so many different orders of Christianity is because there are different interpretations of history and the lessons. Some people think Christ is God, for instance. As far as I know, Jesus never came back to life as a man. The point is that he ascended to heaven... that he went beyond life. But that's not even the important part of the religion. What's more important is the morals and behaviors (peace, love, non-violence) that Jesus taught while he was alive on earth. If people have beef with that, then frankly I think they have to be either ignorant or pretty messed up.

The picture orimarc posted did nothing to contradict or make fun of those morals and lessons. And those morals and lessons needn't be tied to such a fantastical story. That's the whole point of the image.

I think I'm a fairly moral, ethical person, and I had an absolutely non-religious upbringing. In fact, I knew so little about the subject as a child, my mother considered if she had made a mistake when I innocently commented that a church that occupied its own block in a nearby neighborhood was "a waste of space." Her terse response was enough to teach me to respect religion, even if I couldn't understand it. Lesson learned.

I suppose if I was an exceptionally rowdy, inattentive and poorly-behaved child, I may have needed more than just parental guidance to steer me in the right direction...and if religion works for people who lack the discipline to control their children or their own behavior, more power to them. I'd rather have to hear about how awesome Jesus is than watch out for another drunk driver.

Still, I'm sorry, but religion is unnecessary for a well-adjusted individual. A desirable respite from a intimidating, strange, unfair, and unpredictable world, perhaps, but still unnecessary. Many kids brought up in a religious household realize that themselves when they become teenagers.

Omnis
Either way, it's not very tactful to make fun of religions. Especially when you post a picture in a discussion and add nothing to it.

You're right, it isn't very tactful to post a picture and add nothing else. However, I will never agree that religion is "above" being made fun of. I subscribe to the belief that nothing is, because nothing deserves that respect more than anything else.

homeforsummer · May 19, 2009

Parnelli Bone
Also, God is not a "him", nor a "her. God is an "it". A supreme energy force.

I'd go further than that and suggest that God isn't even an "it". I'd put forward that God is a concept. Though obviously I can offer no proof, it's my belief that without humankind (or any species that has self-awareness beyond simple instinct and basic learning ability), God would not exist. The only existence I believe that any God enjoys is existence in peoples' minds.

Thus I have no problem at all with people who hold religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God is real. In my view, God is only as real as any other things in your imagination, and nobody can make me believe something that exists solely in their imagination.

Pako · May 19, 2009

homeforsummer
I'd go further than that and suggest that God isn't even an "it". I'd put forward that God is a concept. Though obviously I can offer no proof, it's my belief that without humankind (or any species that has self-awareness beyond simple instinct and basic learning ability), God would not exist. The only existence I believe that any God enjoys is existence in peoples' minds.

Thus I have no problem at all with people who hold religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God is real. In my view, God is only as real as any other things in your imagination, and nobody can make me believe something that exists solely in their imagination.

And I have no problem with people that hold no religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God isn't real.

In my view, God IS "it", the first and the last "it". I base my beliefs on what the Bible says and the fellowship I get from fellow Christ followers. That being said, the Bible says God existed before He created man, so it is my belief that He exists whether or not we do. I further believe that Christ is my personal savior and through him, I have peace in my life knowing that 'everything' will be ok. That's huge for me.

So yeah, I believe in God and strive to be as Christ like as I can by His example. Personal note: I have a long ways to go, but I'm working on it.

Joey D · May 19, 2009

Pako
So yeah, I believe in God and strive to be as Christ like as I can by His example. Personal note: I have a long ways to go, but I'm working on it.

And whether God or Jesus is real or not, that isn't a bad way to live your life. You'll at least be remembered as a good person and not a complete bastard.

Pako · May 19, 2009

Joey D
And whether God or Jesus is real or not, that isn't a bad way to live your life. You'll at least be remembered as a good person and not a complete bastard.

One can only hope.

BMfan · May 19, 2009

I don't

I believe religion was created in a time when people needed things to explain the unexplained.
Like how was this flat world made and how all the animals came to be.
Most of the people thought that the ground shaking was angry god's not just the earth doing what comes naturally.
I'm not going to believe in some thing that could just be stories that people told their kids.
You don't need to believe in god to know that killing someone or raping someone is wrong.

And to the people who say god helped me get through some problems,i say you are full of it,it wasn't god it was your apparent FAITH that helped and when you become worm food you will realise that.
You're faith is based on the choice of men sitting around a table and decided that jesus was the saviour not the other preachers at the time.

Mark T · May 19, 2009

Pako
And I have no problem with people that hold no religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God isn't real.

In my view, God IS "it", the first and the last "it". I base my beliefs on what the Bible says and the fellowship I get from fellow Christ followers. That being said, the Bible says God existed before He created man, so it is my belief that He exists whether or not we do. I further believe that Christ is my personal savior and through him, I have peace in my life knowing that 'everything' will be ok. That's huge for me.

So yeah, I believe in God and strive to be as Christ like as I can by His example. Personal note: I have a long ways to go, but I'm working on it.

This is why religion is a good thing. Some people live an honest life without distorting religion into some kind of permission slip to cause harm to others. The problem with many religions is that they have been abused and deliberately misinterpreted in order to cause harm to a target people.

Just from reading Pako's previous posts and seeing pictures of his family that he has posted, I can can tell (well, assume) that Pako leads a good life and is a good person. It's hard to imagine that Pako is following the same religious text that other people distort to harm and persecute others.

homeforsummer · May 20, 2009

Pako
And I have no problem with people that hold no religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God isn't real.

Hence my uses of "in my view", "I believe" and similar to qualify my sentences 👍

I'd never try and convince someone that their God isn't real (which is where I find Richard Dawkins a bit tiresome - it's equally as bad inferring that religious believers are stupid as it is inferring that atheists can't lead fulfilling lives until they've "found God"), but I'm more than happy to state my reasons and my opinions for not believing in God. So personally, I only find God to be as real as the imaginations of those who believe in Him.

And, y'know... whatever else I've posted in this thread :lol:

I've made several posts in both this and the evolution thread because above all, I find the subject fascinating and I enjoy the discussion regardless of the religious (non)beliefs of those I'm discussing it with. I'd like to think that I've not belittled anyone for their beliefs even if I've expressed my view that I find the concept of a God nonsensical.

StrokerAce · May 20, 2009

I do not and never will, religion has ruined this world, and starts many wars. It would be a better place if we didn't have it around to skew peoples views on life.

I prefer to keep myself GOD FREE.

DaddyVDUB · May 20, 2009

Pako
And I have no problem with people that hold no religious beliefs as long as they aren't trying to convince everyone that God isn't real.

In my view, God IS "it", the first and the last "it". I base my beliefs on what the Bible says and the fellowship I get from fellow Christ followers. That being said, the Bible says God existed before He created man, so it is my belief that He exists whether or not we do. I further believe that Christ is my personal savior and through him, I have peace in my life knowing that 'everything' will be ok. That's huge for me.

So yeah, I believe in God and strive to be as Christ like as I can by His example. Personal note: I have a long ways to go, but I'm working on it.

Very well said, Thanks

homeforsummer · May 20, 2009

Incidentally, interesting how nobody freaked out when the "Jewish zombie" thing was posted about five months ago.

(I've just read the whole thread through from start to finish again. It's definitely entertaining...)

Omnis · May 20, 2009

Did anyone freak out this time? I didn't. I'm just saying it's not very tactful for the discussion.

Pako · May 20, 2009

homeforsummer
Incidentally, interesting how nobody freaked out when the "Jewish zombie" thing was posted about five months ago.

I didn't particularly like it, but I can see how some people find it entertaining. I missed it 5 months ago.

StrokerAce · May 20, 2009

LOL I love it, I wish I saw that 5 months ago.

Everyone should just watch Zeitgeist, it will definitely change their views on believing in a fictitious story.

homeforsummer
Incidentally, interesting how nobody freaked out when the "Jewish zombie" thing was posted about five months ago.

(I've just read the whole thread through from start to finish again. It's definitely entertaining...)

TofuStoreDrift · May 20, 2009

Sorry, I normally read all the posts, but before I could finish the first ten pages I was horrified by the amount of non-believers here. I guess growing up in the bible belt, where most people are Christians, you come to believe that most people are Christians. Man was I wrong.

For those that blame religion for most of this world's wars and conflicts, you are half correct. But I don't look at Christianity as religion, but as a celebration. Greed and some of these so-called religions that teach their followers to kill in the name of their god, so they can have their 72 virgins, do cause alot of strife across the planet. 72 virgins, this to me sounds like a earthly lust, but my God promised me so much more. Not once has my God told me to kill, if I remember correctly, he told me that I shall not kill. He also told my not to steal, or commit adultery, so whats wrong with that?

I believe in God. I bask in his glory everyday. He is the rock I stand upon. His shining light guides my way. I thank God for his existence.

McLaren · May 20, 2009

TofuStoreDrift
Sorry, I normally read all the posts, but before I could finish the first ten pages I was horrified by the amount of non-believers here. I guess growing up in the bible belt, where most people are Christians, you come to believe that most people are Christians. Man was I wrong.

For those that blame religion for most of this world's wars and conflicts, you are half correct. But I don't look at Christianity as religion, but as a celebration. Greed and some of these so-called religions that teach their followers to kill in the name of their god, so they can have their 72 virgins, do cause alot of strife across the planet. 72 virgins, this to me sounds like a earthly lust, but my God promised me so much more. Not once has my God told me to kill, if I remember correctly, he told me that I shall not kill. He also told my not to steal, or commit adultery, so whats wrong with that?

I believe in God. I bask in his glory everyday. He is the rock I stand upon. His shining light guides my way. I thank God for his existence.

Welcome to the real world then, where the religion of Christianity is not the almighty religion.

You question the religion of Islam's 72 virgins, & yet show that you have no true understanding of what it means. The term 72 virgins comes from a passage of the Qur'an, or the Muslim's Bible. Thanks to the liberal media, you have grasped the idea 72 virgins are tied to terrorists killing in the name of Allah. I bet you also do not realize that according to this same religion you question, that they believe that Moses, Abraham, & Jesus were all Islamic prophets, but that their teachings were corrupted by Jews &, get this, Christians.

This is one particular reason as to why I question any religion. As proof of your post, your religion, Christianity, has a tendency to question other religions' ways of teaching without any proper understanding. This is why many people condemn religion itself. 1 religion condemns the other and that they will go to some sort hell.
Here's a small fact for you. While you are questioning their believes and what will happen to them when they die, they at the same time, are questioning Christianity & believing you will go to some sort of hell when you die because you do not follow their religion. If you need an example, go back and read where Islams believe your religion corrupted the messages of Jesus & Moses.

Pako · May 20, 2009

I have shown several studies that confirm the accuracy of the Bible. Sorry, can't remember if it's in this thread or the Creation vs. Evolution thread.

TofuStoreDrift · May 20, 2009

Oh, have I upset you? I do agree that media is too liberal, but I don't need to look at the Qur'an to tell me anything. I know God, he knows me, I talk with him everyday and he answers my prayers. I don't know what I'd do without him. I have no reason to study other beliefs. I already know my name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. If you can't understand this, maybe its because you haven't been shown the light, and for that, I'll pray for you. I will forever stand behind my beliefs.

Sureboss · May 20, 2009

Pako
I didn't particularly like it, but I can see how some people find it entertaining. I missed it 5 months ago.

You mean it got resurrected about 5 months later? Yup, sounds about right!

Pako · May 20, 2009

Sureboss
You mean it got resurrected about 5 months later? Yup, sounds about right!

I guess I missed all previous accounts of the Jewish Zombie comparison.

I stand corrected.

Pako · May 20, 2009

Touring Mars
It goes well beyond a matter of mere translation - a cursory glance at the history of how the Bible came to exist in its present form reveals that the Bible originated in a culture where written documents were rare to non-existent, and that the current structure and content of the Bible is considerably more modern than the events described within. Everything about the Bible has changed, from its content to its interpretation, and for many reasons. Our modern understanding of what books are doesn't lend itself well to understanding what The Bible is - it didn't have a single author, it wasn't published on a specific date, no-one really knows when various parts were written, and indeed most of it wasn't even "written" in the first instance at all... The Bible is a strange amalgam of oral tradition and sparse documentary evidence, gradually taking shape as a textual document (or set of documents) over hundreds (perhaps several hundreds) of years, with many authors, countless modifications and much ad-hoc refinement as per the needs of the church at the time. No matter what one's feelings are about the moral value of the lessons contained within the modern day texts, there is simply no way that it can be considered as the literal word of God. To think so is to fundamentally misunderstand the rich history of human civilisation and culture, and indeed the history of the Bible itself.

Some of the points that you raise here that you think discredit the Bible, in my mind, confirms it.

Multiple writters from different times and cultures writting the same thing? Sounds like divine inspiration.

Verbal stories, that at the time, were not treated as loosely as we treat virbal stories today. They were taught to upcomming generations with the upmost of care and strictness to acuracy of the non-written word.

The message of salvation in the Bible serves no purpose to the "church", it only takes away the "churches" power as the Bible reads, "No one can come to the Father except through me", as Christ says. That one verse removes all of the power of the Church to control their followers. If the Church was so bent on changing the text to their benefit, surely they would have taken that out and replaced "Me" with the "governing power of the church".

The Bible, namely the Gospels, contain more eye witness accounts that what I would actually call "Words from God", but these writtings are from men that knew Christ very well and studied directly with him. Given the divine implications of Christ, if the Gospels aren't the direct words from God, He certainly was a huge influence on their writtings.

"Churches" as you call them, have distorted and twisted the teachings of the Bible to suit their needs, but a true Christian follows Christ's teachings. A quick review of their actions will seperate Christ Followers from so called Christians.

McLaren · May 20, 2009

TofuStoreDrift
Oh, have I upset you? I do agree that media is too liberal, but I don't need to look at the Qur'an to tell me anything. I know God, he knows me, I talk with him everyday and he answers my prayers. I don't know what I'd do without him. I have no reason to study other beliefs. I already know my name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. If you can't understand this, maybe its because you haven't been shown the light, and for that, I'll pray for you. I will forever stand behind my beliefs.

Understanding how another religion works has nothing to do with following the Christian belief of God.

Your post only shows your ignorance towards other religions & failure to understand the concept of religion. I hope one day, you do pitch your words towards those of another religion, so that they can show you how you sound from the opposite side.

Do not pray for me, either, as I have no reason to follow any sort of religion. I believe there is a higher power, but I refuse to believe it is the same you believe in or anyone else's.

Pako
Some of the points that you raise here that you think discredit the Bible, in my mind, confirms it.

Multiple writters from different times and cultures writting the same thing? Sounds like divine inspiration.

Does it really support the accuracy of the Bible, or does it only show all religions follow 1 common trait, to follow the word of their god?

Are not the people behind the writing of the Bible, the Qur'an, the Torah, or the Vedas of different times & cultures? I believe they are, and yet, they aren't writing the same thing.

TofuStoreDrift · May 20, 2009

Ok, in spirit of studying other religions, what do you believe in?

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in god?

Of course, without him nothing would exist!

Maybe.

No way!

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