Do you believe in God?

[Touring Mars]

for that to occur there would have had to be something that triggered it, exactly the right combination of atoms at exactly the right moment

Not necessarily - the idea that 'something must have triggered it' is an assumption based on our understanding of cause and effect in relation to how we perceive time and make sense of our day to day lives - but the same assumptions cannot rightly be used when speculating as to the causes of the Big Bang. Perhaps the most accurate way of answering the question "What happened before the beginning of time?" is "There is no 'before' the beginning of time". 'Before', by definition, relates to a point in time prior to the present, hence the expression 'before time' literally has no meaning.

Time is such a basic part of how we understand the universe that we assume that that there is always a "before" and that there will always be an "after". But our recent observations of the Cosmos have revealed a rather perplexing truth, which is that time itself had a beginning. That's not to say that there isn't an infinite set of possible reasons how this happened, but it does tell us that there is a point in our universal history beyond which there really was nothing at all... however, that is a pretty unsatisfying answer to alot of people, but it puts me in mind of a weird dilemma, which is when you are looking for something you have lost... at what point do you give up looking? You are convinced that if you keep looking, you will eventually find what it is you are looking for, but always in the back of your mind is the horrible nagging feeling that what you are looking for simply isn't there (and you eventually go out and buy a replacement). Therefore, perhaps the question shouldn't be "what triggered the Big Bang?" but "can we detect any others?"...

 

[homeforsummer]

The "luck triggering the big bang" thing I briefly mentioned is actually an area that Richard Dawkins concedes there's a grey area over. Still, it's less of a grey area than religion...

Not far off on the last part. Except you need "multiverse" instead of "other universe" and "branes" instead of "volatile areas".

Look up "Brane theory"

Woop woop, so I'm not talking out of my backside entirely then...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

It seems there is always a discussion present involving this type of topic in the opinions forum.

Just thought I would cast my vote.

I'm sure it will not come as a big surprise, for some who like me have been around this block a time or two before, that it was in the affirmative. 👍

 

[Skynyrd1977]

Hi Skynyrd,...
Could you please elaborate what helpful rules were laid out by godly Jesus that were not already brought forward by 'normal' human beings in some form? Because surely you're not referring to 'have no sorrow for tomorrow' and such, since -i n my opinion- (recurring theme ) i think that's actually pretty bad advice...

Mind,
I’m hurt, that’s one of my favorites! Probably so because I took it on faith, practiced it, and He has proven them true consistently for two decades. Here's the actual:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life ? "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Mathew 6:25-34
​

Be sure to not confuse this with being careless, it just means trust and seek God, and He'll provide. Hasn’t modern medicine also shown that stress and anxiety can lead to heart disease, stroke, and other health issues?

There are many of Jesus teachings that would change the world if people followed them. But my point is this; the main thing he taught was that He was God. Either he was or he wasn’t. If He was as I have become convinced, then you should take his words seriously. If He wasn’t then he was a liar or a lunatic. But careful study of all the evidence leads me to the former conclusion.

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us." C.S. Lewis

​

...
And please also explain why (if so) you think OT laws no longer apply (which would include the '10' commandments, with well, 5 actually useful commandments).

Thanks,

As far as OT vs. NT, there I am no scholar, and can give no instruction. I can only tell you that years and years of application in my life repeatedly confirm that Jesus is who He said He is, the Lord.

...I've found the idea of God absurd ever since I can remember. I went to a Catholic school, and to me, all the prayers they made us do were just a needless distraction from the process of actually learning things, like human history or science....

HSF…
This I can relate to and agree with, having gone through the exact same. Repetition of scripted mantras does tend to repel rather than attract people. But at what wise young age were you when you determined it was absurd, and how much research had you conducted to determine this?

Do we get plausible explanations with God? No. How much research can you do? None, really, beyond the one book. How about tests? Again, no. Can you observe him? No. Can you analyse God? No.

You basically just have to believe, without any satisfactory reason to do so other than fear of the unknown....

Ah, but we do. Research?

Answers in Genesis
http://www.answersingenesis.org
CARM
http://www.carm.org
Josh McDowell Ministries
http://www.josh.org
Evidence America
http://evidenceamerica.org
Stand to Reason
http://www.str.org
The Olive Tree
http://www.olivetree.com/resources/academic
Coral Ridge
http://www.coralridge.org/equip/l2d-new/default.aspx
True Origin
http://www.trueorigin.org

Then there are the thousands of libraries at Christian universities throughout the world, filled with studies on the topic. Most universities began as Christian schools. Harvard University, established in 1636, and Yale University, both began as Congregational institutions. Princeton University started as a Presbyterian college. Oxford, Paris, Cambridge, Heidelberg and Basel were all founded by Christian ministers. (Christian Roots in Education)

As for tests. There is one scripture in which God says you can test him. I am told it is the only place in the Bible that God allows you to test Him. I can verify that this is also pure truth:

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.” Malachi 3:10
​

I believe these things because a great many people have spent a great many years of their lives researching, testing, observing, analysing and discovering these things, all the while giving very plausible explanations.

👍
...Fortunately, throughout my education I have been exposed to people (teachers, lecturers, professors etc.) who abide by the scientific method as the principal way of learning...

HSM and Touring,
I hope you saw my point. I too base my belief on the same things as you, not on blind faith. You are relying on testimony of credible sources, the same as I first relied on the testimony of credible sources, to which I now can confirm.

Just because you can't comprehend it is no reason to assume it is so either, however. And since the potential number of things that could be so without any evidence is infinite, how do you begin to choose one from among the endless possibilities?

That's my whole issue in a nutshell. You believe something without evidence and decide that since a just god is possible, that it supports your belief in one. It's a closed, circular argument that is 100% self-referential.

I on the other hand am not willing to just pick a belief from the infinite range of possibilities, unless it is supported by repeatable, multiply-witnessed, multiply-tested evidence. And I'm always willing to update my beliefs as the evidence improves.

Duke,
It's good you are always open to study the debate. This is wise. Consider the 2000 years of peoples, societies, cultures, and even nations, numbering in the millions, who have converted to Christianity, and uniformly testify to the resulting actual changes that came about from it? Thousands witnessed Jesus miracles. External Biblical historians confirmed Him. Saul, a devout Roman Jew, set out persecuting and executing Christians. What drastically changed him to not only convert but become a key promoter and writer of the New Testament as Paul? The Roman Empire banned Christianity, executing thousands, but yet eventually Christianity won out and became the official religion of the empire. Over and over these stories repeat for 2000 years, they go on and on. Just offering a small miniscule amount of evidence. 👍

One last little tidbit. I was poking around the search function and found this old thread/post, still open and last posted in 2002, and was debating about whether to "resurrect" it (couldn't help myself ) since it was still open. That's exactly when Patrik started this thread. Coincidence?

 

[Patrik]

It's Patrik, not Patrick.

Have you Skynyrd1977 witnessed any miracles? If so, please describe them.

 

[Touring Mars]

I hope you saw my point. I too base my belief on the same things as you, not on blind faith. You are relying on testimony of credible sources, the same as I first relied on the testimony of credible sources, to which I now can confirm.

Yes, I do get your point - and it is a very good one. Perhaps I should add that, although I still rely on credible sources of information i.e. the scientific literature etc., I also gain alot of information in my own work from experiment and direct observations i.e. by myself. Textbooks and research papers can only take you so far in this line of work - sooner or later you need to start "making knowledge" for yourself, and that means asking questions that no-one has answered already. While publishing in the scientific literature does require external validation i.e. the peer-review process, the pursuit of scientific knowledge itself does not rely on any authority against which it must be checked. However, the scientific method (and by extension, the fundamental principles of reasoning and logic) provide independent means by which to assess the validity of an observation, and whether an experimental observation means what you think it means. At a most fundamental level, the scientific method relies on experiment, observation and perhaps most importantly, intellectual honesty and integrity. In other words, any bozo can make up any data/result that they want, but only those claims/results that withstand (or are even susceptible to) scrutiny will be accepted as genuine.

Ah, but we do. Research?

Answers in Genesis
http://www.answersingenesis.org

This is where a line must be drawn - I can't speak for the other sources you reference, but this site in particular is the epitome of all that is wrong with "Creation Science". Scientifically, it has no credibility whatsoever. Generally, I find the whole site disagreeable, indeed borderline offensive - not least because it uses pseudoscientific bunk to justify making some downright outrageous remarks, but also because alot of what this site presents as "science" is factually incorrect, intellectually dishonest and deliberately misleading. That, in my view, makes it morally indefensible. This is not "research" - infact it is the very opposite. AIG have just one objective and that is to validate the content of the Bible (or "uphold the authority of The Bible" as they put it). As such, it is inherently unscientific to the core. Scientific research is fundamentally interested in discovering new realities, not merely finding new ways in which to support a pre-supposed "truth".

In other words, any bozo can make up any data/result that they want, but only those that withstand scrutiny will be accepted as genuine.

This is where AIG come in - their creation museum attempts to explain that dinosaurs and humans co-existed. Their website is filled with spurious claims along similar lines. Indeed, the core of their arguments boil down to same old thing - that the world around us is inherently unknowable and controlled/designed by factors that are beyond our scrutiny (and therefore, their spurious claims are also beyond scrutiny). The site is also awash with criticism of "materialist" or "naturalist" science, arguing that any scientific observation is only as sound as the assumptions that underlie them - while this might be true, they grossly overplay this in order to cast doubt on any scientific fact that contradicts their pre-supposed worldview, and at the same time they conveniently neglect to point out that their own position relies on some rather ludicrous assumptions. Time and time again, their conclusions are the same: "scientists are wrong, we are right, but you'll just have to take our word for it". I'm sorry, but that's simply not good enough.

 

[Skynyrd1977]

It's Patrik, not Patrick.

Have you Skynyrd1977 witnessed any miracles? If so, please describe them.

If I did would you believe me or call it coincidence. How big of a miracle would it have to be before you would believe it. The Jews in Egypt witnessed many miracles, yet their faith later failed them. Judas saw miracles yet later betrayed. Thomas saw people raised from the dead yet refused originally to believe that Jesus was. The Bible says false prophets and false christs will come and perform miracles to deceive people. "Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe." John 4:48.

A young teenager crossed the center line and hit me head on at 55mph. I was driving an 80’s something Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup, no air bags, not wearing a seatbelt. I walked away. Four doctors told us my son could not have his leg lengthened the amount needed, it’s 10.5 inches longer now. My wife decided to quit her job to raise our firstborn, she made more than me, we didn’t know how we would manage but the day she quit our daycare service closed without notice and all the families were willing to let her watch them at our home. One Thanksgiving we encountered a 20 minute stand-still delay (20 years ago, not happened since) on our way home, when we got home a tornado had just crossed our exact path of travel, 300 yards from our apartment, 20 minutes before we got there. The apartments next to ours were flattened. My wife and son walked away from an accident in November that totaled our vehicle and two others. I could go on. Miracles? Maybe, maybe not.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.” Mathew 7:7
​

 

[TheCracker]

A young teenager crossed the center line and hit me head on at 55mph. I was driving an 80’s something Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup, no air bags, not wearing a seatbelt. I walked away. Four doctors told us my son could not have his leg lengthened the amount needed, it’s 10.5 inches longer now. My wife decided to quit her job to raise our firstborn, she made more than me, we didn’t know how we would manage but the day she quit our daycare service closed without notice and all the families were willing to let her watch them at our home. One Thanksgiving we encountered a 20 minute stand-still delay (20 years ago, not happened since) on our way home, when we got home a tornado had just crossed our exact path of travel, 300 yards from our apartment, 20 minutes before we got there. The apartments next to ours were flattened. My wife and son walked away from an accident in November that totaled our vehicle and two others. I could go on. Miracles? Maybe, maybe not.

If these things happened to a non believer would they still be possible miracles, or is it just classed as an unlikely occurrence?

 

[Mark T]

If these things happened to a non believer would they still be possible miracles, or is it just classed as an unlikely occurrence?

I refer to the people who survive such as things "jammy gits". How about the reverse? Someone being hit by lightning or slipping over on a banana skin and cracking there head open?

 

[Touring Mars]

A young teenager crossed the center line and hit me head on at 55mph. I was driving an 80’s something Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup, no air bags, not wearing a seatbelt. I walked away. Four doctors told us my son could not have his leg lengthened the amount needed, it’s 10.5 inches longer now. My wife decided to quit her job to raise our firstborn, she made more than me, we didn’t know how we would manage but the day she quit our daycare service closed without notice and all the families were willing to let her watch them at our home. One Thanksgiving we encountered a 20 minute stand-still delay (20 years ago, not happened since) on our way home, when we got home a tornado had just crossed our exact path of travel, 300 yards from our apartment, 20 minutes before we got there. The apartments next to ours were flattened. My wife and son walked away from an accident in November that totaled our vehicle and two others. I could go on. Miracles? Maybe, maybe not.

This is interesting because miracles are invariably described as "good things that happen with no obvious explanation"... I think that it's fair to say that all of the above could also be described as "fortuitous", atleast for you guys anyway... and perhaps it's this last bit that is most interesting...

Miracles, or incidences like those described above, may well be extremely fortuitous for someone, but at the same time the same incident is extremely unfortunate for someone else. Is it perhaps the scale of the difference in outcomes that makes something feel "miraculous"?

Some consider it a miracle that a few people survived the collapse of the World Trade Center - despite the fact that the vast majority of people still in the buildings when they fell were killed instantly. If a tornado passes by an entire town, but hits another one, the residents of the town that survives might report a miracle. Similarly, if all but one house is destroyed in a town, then the owners of that house might report a miracle... both things would arguably only be considered a miracle by the people who were relatively unaffected.

The major contention I have with miracles is the presumed "good intention" behind them - I think it goes without saying that the beneficiary of a possible miracle (i.e. survivor) will feel that they have been extraordinarily lucky to have been spared, but what about everyone else? Where is the "good intention" behind a disaster or accident that causes some people to feel that a miracle has occured, even when everyone else has perished? In the case of recovery from illness, again it seems that only once the outcome has turned in one's favour, then God is credited with the intervention...

 

[Danoff]

A young teenager crossed the center line and hit me head on at 55mph. I was driving an 80’s something Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup, no air bags, not wearing a seatbelt. I walked away. Four doctors told us my son could not have his leg lengthened the amount needed, it’s 10.5 inches longer now. My wife decided to quit her job to raise our firstborn, she made more than me, we didn’t know how we would manage but the day she quit our daycare service closed without notice and all the families were willing to let her watch them at our home. One Thanksgiving we encountered a 20 minute stand-still delay (20 years ago, not happened since) on our way home, when we got home a tornado had just crossed our exact path of travel, 300 yards from our apartment, 20 minutes before we got there. The apartments next to ours were flattened. My wife and son walked away from an accident in November that totaled our vehicle and two others. I could go on. Miracles? Maybe, maybe not.

TM touched on this but I'll make it slightly more explicit. Do you keep a similar list of all of the bad things that happen to you over your life so that you can see whether or not God really is favoring you?

Human beings have a tendency to pay attention only to the information that supports their pre-existing notions. This has been tested psychologically and held up. For example, in one psychological test people were administered an IQ test and told they did either well or poorly. They were then given articles about the test. Those who did well tended to read the articles that supported the credibility of the test. Those that did poorly tended to read articles that attacked the credibility of the test. (I got this from the book "Stumbling On Happiness" by Daniel Gilbert)

You are selectively tuning out some information and keeping track of others. When someone dies (doesn't defy the odds), it is simply "his time". But when someone lives, and does defy the odds, it's a miracle. That view is circular and self-reinforcing. You're ignoring the bad events that happen to you (and, as TM points out, others) and carefully tracking the unlikely good things - that's not a logical approach to understanding truth.

 

[homeforsummer]

The others have pretty much covered the other points in your post, so I'll just address this one:

HSF…
This I can relate to and agree with, having gone through the exact same. Repetition of scripted mantras does tend to repel rather than attract people. But at what wise young age were you when you determined it was absurd, and how much research had you conducted to determine this?

Our school wasn't overly religious - it was simply a Catholic school that had links with the church, so religious education was on the syllabus (and the same applied in my high school).

In answer to your question though, I do have fairly vivid memories from as young as six years old in primary school, thinking it was more than a little silly that some invisible being in the sky was listening to us as we repeated the Lord's prayer to him daily. So as young as 6 - and probably earlier - I had already dismissed the idea of God.

My parents aren't directly responsible either - neither is religious in the slightest, which could of course have an impact subconsciously, but again, I remember from a very young age them telling myself and my brother that if we wanted to believe what they taught us in R.E. at school and if we wanted to go to church, it was completely up to us.

From a young age I've always seen science as a vastly more plausible explanation for events than any God is.

 

[mindwise]

Hi SkyN,

You need to mobilize some more believers to join this discussion, because it seems you are a bit outnumbered --- (still, you're trying to do your part 1st Peter 3:15 )

Anyway, thank you for your reply, i understand your point, but -as expected- i'm not convinced, and i'm a bit confused as what parts of Jesus's sayings you're bringing forth as wisdom that could/has not been forwarded by secular people (or people who believed in gods you yourself don't believe, hence they'd count as mere mortals, right?
It seems Lewis could not do it either...

The parable with the birds you mentioned, is in my eyes bad advice, as birds are concerned with getting food literally all the time.
Birds don't gather food into a barn, but a lot of birds migrate which counts specifically as planning ahead for food
And there are plenty of animals that do gather food, so planning for it too.....

"Life more important then food"

?
think about that, food is a requirement for life, there is no life without it....

"And why do you worry about clothes?"

Well, i think that's explained in Genesis, is it not? at least, partially
Anyways, what's the good advice there then? i'm sorry for my ignorance, but i fail to see it.
I also, thank goodness, don't see you running around without clothes, giving away your riches to the poor, or leaving your family.... all of which is 'advice'...

Matt 15:10-18, sure i understand the parable, but it is in conflict with OT teaching, one of the reasons i asked your opinion on the OT laws.
On top of that, it is dangerously wrong information, salmonella and alike might not render one 'unclean' in a sinful sense, but it can and will kill without getting 'killed in the stomach'.

Bottom line, i don't deny there's nice poetry, nice stories of moral and good general advice; However, that said, i fail to see anything divine there, and i also see a lot of plain bad advice/moral teachings. Especially in the Old Testament.

When you say:

"As far as OT vs. NT, there I am no scholar, and can give no instruction"

and follow later with:

"But careful study of all the evidence"

I wonder, what is 'All' the evidence you study?, and why is the OT not a part of a careful study? it still makes up 3/4th of the bible...
Isaiah seems particularly important for careful study (especially hebrew vs greek and the context..., and so are the Dead Sea Scrolls.
You know the NT contains the passage: "This was written so that you may believe" i guess.

I understand this better

"I can only tell you that years and years of application in my life repeatedly confirm that Jesus is who He said He is, the Lord."

that makes more sense to me, i don't count it as evidence as it is ambiguous and unconfirmable since i.e. Shiva is confirmed by Hindu's etc. But i can/will -not discount your personal experience, i understand it has a real impact on you (as i hope you understand your experience has no impact on me )

This however i have a problem with:

it just means trust and seek God, and He'll provide.

Particularly in the poverty struck parts of Africa, many many people are sincere believers and millions die of starvation.
Surely you don't want to say that -at least some- believers there who died of starvation were not as deserving of 'providence' as you are?, i hope you are willing to nuance that remark a bit.

 

[Sage]

Oh, and, the ones who just starve to death are the lucky ones – God has provided Africa with such lovely things as 40-foot parasitic tapeworms and malaria (nothing makes you believe in a kind, gentle, omnipotent creator more than a parasite that first attacks your liver, then your red blood cells, and sometimes your brain cells, and disposes of you in great pain).

 

[Stevisiov]

Oh, and, the ones who just starve to death are the lucky ones – God has provided Africa with such lovely things as 40-foot parasitic tapeworms and malaria (nothing makes you believe in a kind, gentle, omnipotent creator more than a parasite that first attacks your liver, then your red blood cells, and sometimes your brain cells, and disposes of you in great pain).

That is of course the tip of the iceberg. If you throw hell into the equation you have ebola for eternity whilst being set of fire etc.

This is one of the many places where the 'kind loving god' simply doesn't work whatsoever.

He created an eternal blissful place

He created an eternal hell

If he loved all humanity he should have no problem with sticking them all in heaven, and wouldn't let any one suffer an eternity of torture.

Yet for some reason there is a trail period, why of all bloody things we were given free will.

Maybe he did it for fun (a very human concept I might add).

Either way I fail to see a god who loves everyone could condem anyone to hell, when he could have made every human nice in the first place.

This is about where a Christian will mention Satan, now did god create Satan? if so why couldn't he make Satan a nice guy? It seems from a Christians view many of the wrong doing in the world is due to Satan, but why did God make Satan wrong in the first place, if God exists outside time and therefore can predict the future, why didn't he forsee Satan turning on him? Unless of course that means Satan exists outside time and therefore has always been like god) a paradox.

I have seen these questions asked before but I have never seen a decent answer for them. I am pretty sure I know why.

Of course these are directed at christians, since it only seems to be christians in this thread, I am sure similar would apply to other religions.

 

[Sureboss]

if so why couldn't he make Satan a nice guy?

Because Satan exists to try to stop you from being a naughty boy.

 

[Patrik]

I love americans who don't believe in God, especially when they're drag race drivers and named Bob Glidden! Although I don't actually know if he believes in him or not, but he obviously seems more realistic than most the others of you.

Take his famous crash in Atlanta 1986 for an example.



Steve Evans: "It's a miracle to get out of that one."

Bob Glidden: "All I can do is thank the chassis builder, Jerry Haas..."

Anyone else in the states would probably thank "the good lord".

 

[Exorcet]

Anyone else in the states would probably thank "the good lord".

How many people mean it when they say it? It's been reduced to figure of speech.


As a self proclaimed religious and devout Catholic, I'll answer the question with maybe. There is no definitive evidence either way. If he exists, he has chosen not to reveal himself and let us live on our own as far as we can tell. If he doesn't exist, there is no paradox that needs solving to explain the universe.

When on this subject, it's very important not to get mixed up in religious claims. I read a few posts hoping that God wouldn't exist because if he did, it would mean he liked to see evil in the world (like killing). There are many things wrong with that logic, first thing being it doesn't matter whether he exists or not, the world is the way it is and his presence won't change anything. The second is the fact that there is no reason to think that anything that happens is a result of divine will. No one knows if God even exists, so how can he or his behavior be described? The poster of the opinion I mentioned was attributing religious beliefs about God, to God. This can't be done, as strange as it might sound when you think about it quickly, because the existence of God or accuracy of religion is not understood.



EDIT

This is about where a Christian will mention Satan, now did god create Satan? if so why couldn't he make Satan a nice guy? It seems from a Christians view many of the wrong doing in the world is due to Satan, but why did God make Satan wrong in the first place, if God exists outside time and therefore can predict the future, why didn't he forsee Satan turning on him? Unless of course that means Satan exists outside time and therefore has always been like god) a paradox.

Pardon the upcoming tangent and mini rant

Christianity blames the imperfection of humans for the evil in the world, not Satan. "Adam and Eve" failed a "test" and God cast them from "Eden" (Quotes mark symbols that might have been different from the presentation in the Bible). God does not interfere with people or Satan because they were given free will, they were not created good or evil, but can choose their path. Those who choose evil are sent to hell.

My thoughts: I agree that hell is a ridiculous thing given the nature of God presented by religious doctrine. He should allow all people into heaven if he is as he is typically described, even if they've sinned 10 times more than Hitler. I find the Eden test scenario illogical, but more possible than hell. If God made the universe, he probably set off the Big Bang (or just set up dimensions, or something) and let it loose.

Is this "good"? I don't know. I know that if I wasn't created (somehow) I wouldn't exist (If I even exist at all) and could not experience life. It's possible that there are some people living a life of such misery that they would rather not exist though. Certainly an all power and benevolent God that was active in the wouldn't let such things exist, but that wouldn't stop an all power benevolent God that was not involved (or could not be, though I guess that means he's not all powerful) from existing. It's a complicated question, and it takes a lot of thought to get any meaningful answers. I'm sure my own logic has some holes in it.

 

[Sage]

first thing being it doesn't matter whether he exists or not, the world is the way it is and his presence won't change anything.

Of course it matters – if the God described in the Bible (or the Koran) exists, then my ass is going to rot in Hell for a rather uncomfortable length of time.

[edit]: Hm, looks like you edited.

 

[Exorcet]

Of course it matters – if the God described in the Bible (or the Koran) exists, then my ass is going to rot in Hell for a rather uncomfortable length of time.

You took that out of context. The fact that someone is suffering doesn't have anything to do with the presense of a god.

Edit

I did edit, but only to add the second quote and following reply. To elaborate on what was said above in this post, yes it matters if God exists in terms of appeasing him to not be sent to hell (if it exists, - note that God and hell are completely independent). But his existance or lack of existance won't change anything in the world because we don't know if he exists. This means that we can't tell the difference between a God containing world and a godless world.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Yes i do, Just the way i was brought up.

But i will not go to church. I just dont care for it.

 

[Sureboss]

Courtesy of the one of the lads on IRC I've just read a fantastic quote.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

There is many reasons why I dont belive in god, main reason is: there is so many different religions, if there is a god then just one religion is the "right". And whats the odds of it being your religion that is the right one? We get influenced by our closest, and I belive that I whould have bin muslim if my hole family was too.

I think we humans need something to belive in, and I belive in sience..

 

[Exorcet]

There is many reasons why I dont belive in god, main reason is: there is so many different religions

That's not really much of a reason though. If God differs from the Gods of every religion (ie if every religion is wrong) that doesn't rule out his existence. Since religions are run by people and as far as I can see God hasn't explicitly made contact with anyone, all religions are probably at least a bit wrong, in some way.

 

[Joey D]

That's not really much of a reason though. If God differs from the Gods of every religion (ie if every religion is wrong) that doesn't rule out his existence. Since religions are run by people and as far as I can see God hasn't explicitly made contact with anyone, all religions are probably at least a bit wrong, in some way.

All religions have an equal chance of being right just as all religions have an equal chance of being wrong. Me, I just went for the one with the best stories behind it. I guess I technically follow Germanic neopaganism but really do I think Thor and Odin watch over us? No not really, but I like the stories.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Simply answering the thread's title question: yes.

 

[homeforsummer]

Courtesy of the one of the lads on IRC I've just read a fantastic quote.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Sir Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-1971)

👍

That's like a motto for my life. I'm sure someone on these forums has that exact quote in their sig.

 

[Northstar]

I apparently already voted but don't remember.

Anyways, I do believe in god, but I refuse to classify myself under any religion. Personally I feel as long as I do what I feel is the right thing to do I will be going up not down.

 

[Patrik]

I just watched a documentary called "Bibeln vs Darwin" ("The Bible vs Darwin" in english). It's really scary IMO, to see how brainwashed, stupid and narrow-minded catholic people are. Yes, mostly americans, but also europeans.

There was this german guy for example, who believed the earth was 10 thousand years old, instead of 4,5 billion years. Not only does he believe it himself, but he is also a teacher in a catholoc private school and teaches this nonsense out to the students. Pure brainwashing...

There are numerous organisations in the states which are claimed by themselves to be scientific, but all they are is christian and all they're trying to do is to prove that Charles Darwin was wrong and that god is the creator of everything. It's out of control IMO.

 

[Sureboss]

The idea of a religious school is oh so wrong and should be made illegal. Don't care what the parents want, either.