Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"
- Thread starter LP670-4 SV
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- GTP_infamousDee
Mixed class grids (Standard versus Premium) confirmed. 
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- 4,323
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- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
It seems to me you like this thread, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it. There was a time when I was tired of all this nonsense. I'm beginning to enjoy it once again with all these funny posts.
I will say a few words, however. It is a little bit too late to complain and argue why PD did the things it did or it did not do.
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What does GT have that hasn't been featured in other games, then?
Photomode? Nope. Track-editor? Nope. Customization? Might not have improved on the last game. B-Spec? An advanced version of games like F1 Manager on PC in about 1996. Also offered in 'Hire Driver' forms elsewhere. Car Damage? Two-decades old.
Honestly, I'll agree night and day that Premiums knock spots off of any competition on consoles and that's any type of game, not just racing games, but to claim it's got stacks of features - seen elsewhere as long ago as the PSX - as a reason to not compare it with any other games is ridiculous.
- 5,017
- Val d'Orcia,Tuscany
- hardvibes
- ACR HardVibes
Do you know a single game, other than GT5, that has all these features (plus all the other you haven't listed)?
- 5,017
- Val d'Orcia,Tuscany
- hardvibes
- ACR HardVibes
You're leaving out a lot features, I told you.
Please don't make me list them...
And you said it, "hire a driver" is not as big as B-Spec.
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- RedSuinit
It seems to me you like this thread, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it. There was a time when I was tired of all this nonsense. I'm beginning to enjoy it once again with all these funny posts.
I will say a few words, however. It is a little bit too late to complain and argue why PD did the things it did or it did not do.
Nah, I enjoy reading this thread, it is quite funny, but I have said all I need to say on this subject, and like to randomly interject every once in a while and comment on the fact that this thread just will not die...
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Just goes to show how important the divide is to some people.
I honestly think this subject will come up alot in reviews too.
I honestly think this subject will come up alot in reviews too.
- 1,458
I think it will only be mentioned in reviews if it really affects the presentation (i.e Standards looking out of place with Premiums alongside on the track). If it really isn't much of an issue then the major gaming sites shouldn't really mention it in depth. Other sites dedicated to racing games such as InsideSimRacing will most likely note it tho.
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
It really depends on the impact. Can standards and premium run together, that type of thing.
- 8,725
What happened to "this belongs in PM"? Do as I say not as I do?
You didn't respond. And it was a new slant anyway, but have it your way.
While it may be true that other games have done similar features, none have done it to the degree and quality of Polyphony Digital. I would like to draw a comparison to Uncharted/Uncharted 2. Most people agree they are some of the best games ever to grace a console, let alone a PC for that matter. While some believe Uncharted 2 revolutionized gaming, it really did nothing new. It was typical duck and cover shooting, platforming, and puzzling. Other games have had similar features in the past. What sets Uncharted apart is the high production value and the continuity of the experience. It took what other games had done and did it better. That is what Gran Turismo should do. We will have to wait and see if it succeeds.
Now, on the issue of standard/premium cars. The reason that they exist is because polyphony is doing interiors to a higher degree ever seen before. Yet they are trying to satisfy people that are only looking at the numbers. It is very difficult.
Dapper
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You use this term highlighted to compare GT5's standard cars to another game and all it's features. You use the term out of context, that's all.
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Oh I thought you were specifically referring to the "2nd" part of "2nd generation"... I said many becuase I don't know exactly how many and as I said it's a fairly amorphous term anyway.... suffice it to say even by long estimates 4 years is enough time for multiple software generations.
As for out of context, not sure how you mean, it's exactly what I meant in the context I meant... we are on the same generation of hardware now (ie PS3 and 360 are generally considered same gen hardware) but we are many generations deep into that hardware lifecycle as in we are certainly not looking at release titles anymore and we are definitely past the second generation of software.
What I am saying is that GT5 is coming out many generations into this cycle of hardwares life. PGR4 came out quite a few generations ago (I think PGR3 was first gen 360 softwarem PGR4 pretty much second generation and that was quite a while ago) and as I have pointed out, it's when a game is released that sets it's generation so while you could argue GT5 was STARTED along time ago, around the same time as PGR4, it doesn't really matter... its' coming out long after PGR4 so the naturall progression in improvements in software generations puts an expectation that it would exceed previous generation titles of simlar genres. Cross platform muddies the waters a big but it's widely touted that the PS3 is the "stronger" console of the two so at worst I would say the two may be seperate but equal.
I get the feelilng I used a term neither of you happen to be familiar with and thus it didn't make sense to you, but such is the way of talking to a large group who you know little about.
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Dapper
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Despite what you say, you are comparing all that PGR4 has to offer vs. GT5's standard cars.
You can't compare the two graphically because that doesn't take the scope of the game into account.
Thus, using a term to compare two non-comparable things is using it out of context.
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I was comparing those screenshots of PGR4 with the cars and locations in GT5. I wasn't comparing the whole thing... just graphicay and pointing out that
1: GT5s incredible locals are spectacular, but that's not something particularly new.
2: PGR4 cars are superior in many ways appearance wise to GT5s standards despite being many years ago and being a much more similar genre than say midnight club.
It's fine that you keep trying to find fault with what I say, but I think you are not understanding me and assuming what I mean.
- 8,725
I doubt anyone would expect the standard cars to look "better" than PGR4's cars, since they're (at least) six years old, from the previous (hardware...) generation and are more or less a direct "port". PGR4 is current (hardware...) gen, only three years old and made specifically for the 360, as was its predecessor - which was released two years prior (meaning the assets are at most 5 years old).
Is this a serious comparison, or was this just brought up in another argument?
freshseth83
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- freshseth83
I expect them to. Remember the standard cars videos? To me they weren't anything but replays of previous GT cars put onto some new tracks. That's relatively simple to do and I think that's what was shown. Those videos didn't say 'Standard cars gameplay' did they? They were shown at E3, and the only thing that was stated was they were previous GT cars 'brought over' and 'updated' to 'PS3 standard'. Those are all quotes I've remembered from E3. All weve got so far was those videos of these cars, nothing new information wise. Everything new has been upgrades, track editor, day/night. Those are the major things revealed since E3. MAYBE TGS will show something along the lines of standards? I expect them to look a good bit better than GT4 though. Even if it's only upgraded by the quality of video (1080P), they'll look more 'realistic' than GT4.
Seismica
Premium
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- GTP_Seismica
He does have a point, regardless of whether they look better or not, PGR4 is this gen whilst the standard cars were last gen, so the comparison is flawed. I'm with Griffith500, I wonder if this is supposed to be a serious comparison, because it's clear which model looks better, because they were created to higher quality criteria for newer, more powerful hardware that could handle it.
But the lighting engine brings the standard car models up to a visual level that no other developer could produce with those same models on console. Despite the crappy models, some of the standard cars still look worthy of this-gen, even if the models themselves are way behind the competitors. It's evident if you watch the standard car video in HD that this is the case.
Let's consider for a moment, what would have happened if PD didn't create any premium models, but simply added to their roster of standard cars (So 1000 cars, no standard, not premium or defined in any sort of quality, just as 'cars.'). Would there still be as much fuss?
My guess is no, because most of the arguments in here are based on the feeling that they misled us with 1000 cars and then it felt like they took away 800 of them when they announced them to be ported from GT4.
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First off, you are speaking about a lot of people there with what you expect of them and we have had plenty of people arguing in this thread about how the standard cars are completely acceptable for this gen (both in the hardware and software sense). I can only assume (I don't keep track of names through a hundred plus page thread) that you haven't really kept up on all the ins and outs of this whole standard cars debate.
BTW I am not the one who posted the PGR4 picture... that was Amar I believe... I just commented on it. So as for why it's an argument in this thread, ask the guy who posted it originally.
Well now it comes down to are we talkinng what is expected of GT4 models ported into GT5 or what was expected of GT5.
I am talking still about expectations of GT5 and how standard cars fail to meet those expectations. This thread is getting convoluted with a lot of side topics though so I could see the confusion.
Seriously? I am pretty sure it would be worse... we would have all been totally shocked that after 6 years we just got GT HD. The question of what PD has been doing this whole time would have been taken to a whole nother level and the forza fanboys would be frothing at the mouth with joy.
I think there has been some serious meandering here in the topic, but originally (and what I am getting at) is the comparisons of premiums and standards and how they stack up and fair as assets of GT5 considering it's dev time and expectations. The point being that the whole "standard cars are good enough to be current gen and look fine" argument is not really valid... for what they are they look great, but what they are isn't really comparable to the standard out there.
Now I have to ask, what do you think was the point from those who posted the pictures that started this whole thing? The midnight club thing was directly posted as a comparison to standard cars to illustrate that another similar game has less accurate assets than GT5 standard cars, which I then pointed out the flaws in.
The PGR4 picture is a little more questionable as Amar just posted it in a list of photos of games so the why is pretty much only known by him... it's best guess on that one.
I think you guys are kind of getting in midline in my thought process and not realizing the background thus assuming what I mean and the point I am trying to make and getting it all wrong...
Dapper
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The standard is not just graphical...
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No but when you are responding to someone posting pictures, you are kind of limiting your comment to the graphical no?
And especially when responding to someone who posts a midnight club picture and says "would you rather have cars that look like this" (or something like that)...
See again, you are taking my comments out of context (which is why I have been linking back to the origins of where this whole issue started from) either by choice or becuase you haven't gone back and looked to see why I said what I said... that's why I keep saying I think you are confused because you don't understand my point. Sure what I say makes no sense or is just wrong if you take it in the wrong context, that's why context is important.
If I say "standard cars aren't as good as PGR4 cars" and I am talkling about model quality alone, but you come along and say "standard cars wil probably use the much superior physics of GT5 so you are wrong" you have totally missed the point and only added confusion to the situation. See what I am getting at?
I am guilty of it myself, sometimes you see a post, respond to it and find out you completely missunderstood it becuase you didn't follow the trail of where it came from (quite easy to do in this meandering thread).
I commented on someones post about the quality of standard cars when he was talking about he quality of the VIDEO of standard cars... total foot in mouth moment there... but that's how it happens.
Dapper
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I didn't think so. I have no clue how many cars look that good in PGR4, nor how many track, features, etc... So you see how only comparing the standard cars of GT5 to the cars in PGR4 is not fair. The scope of the game is what matters and I know you don't want to read that, but the fact of this matter is cars could be modelled to perfection in the 90's... so what? Saying a game had 1 car that looked good several years ago therefore making a newer game with less detailed cars is unacceptable is totally erroneous in this case.
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- SaveMGO
The ONLY thing I want is for the standards to have the same
in-car view GTPSP.Or have a good hood view.One or the other.
in-car view GTPSP.Or have a good hood view.One or the other.
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- TIZZLAA
Kaz has confirmed that there will be NO interior view for standards. They were developing a GTPSP style interior view but it was scrapped.
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You seem to be intentionally ignoring what I say...
First off the fact that you don't know how alll the cars in PGR4 look in no way invalidates my statement... it just means you don't happen to know enough to verify or invalidate it yourself. You will notice the post you refer to was me talking to other people, not even you so what you do and don't know is even less relevant. I don't undersatnd quantum physics but that doesn't mean a professor talking about it isn't making a valid statement... especially if he isn't even talking to me. It would be pretty fruitless for me to step into the middle of his talk and explain how some aspect of quantum physics doesn't make sense in context of video game development theory or something.
Well being as how this is the standard cars vs premiums thread the scope isn't really the relevant topic.
It seems the problem isn't what I don't want to read, it's what you don't want to read, which is what I have been saying over and over... I was not talking about the scope, I wasn't even taking about standard cars in general... I was talking specifically about graphical quality of the models compared to the photos someone else posted.
I get the feeling you are trolling me now... I keep saying "look, this is what I was talking about" and you keep saying "what's important is this other thing". Yes that other thing is important... it's why we are all still buying GT5 DESPITE standard cars... it doens't mean we can't talk specifically about the standard cars though...
I get it. A game is more than just any one aspect... I am not arguing that point... I am just saying that THIS particular aspect (which I didn't bring up in this case, I was jut responding to someone else who did) is a certain way and the other aspects of the game do not invalidate what I am saying about this particular aspect.
You need to step back and seperate your feelings about the game as a whole from the parts we are specifically discussing. They are seperate.
Again what you have done is come into a post I made in a certain specific context, then decided to tell me it's not valid because in a completely different context that you don't seem to want to let go of, it's wrong.
Yes... in a differnt context or looking at a completely different aspect (overall content vs graphical qualit of a certain set of assets) what I said doesn't fly. That's why I didn't say it in that context or about that aspect
