Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[shirakawaa]

Whilst the rational amongst this forum will appreciate that two of GT4's car list were different purple-coloured GT-R V-Specs available separately and only in that colour.

Well, will saying that the result of GT4 having that many cars was mainly due to different colors is obviously an exaggeration, that's not too far from reality. The best example of this is the Skyline, as we all know.

The R34 Skyline GT-R had 11 versions with only very slight differences, both in specifications and in 3D models:

Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) ('99)
Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) ('00)
Nissan Skyline GT-R Mid. Purple II (R34) ('99)
Nissan Skyline GT-R Mid. Purple III (R34) ('00)
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-spec (R34) ('01)
Nissan Skyline GT-R M-spec Nur (R34) ('02)
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec (R34) ('99)
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec II (R34) ('00)
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec II N1 (R34) ('00)
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec II Nur (R34) ('02)
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-spec N1 (R34) ('99)

Personally, I consider that as one car with 11 very similar variations. For the SCE/PD marketing department they are 11 completely different cars however. Surely, if the "base" R34 Skyline model would take 6 months to be remade as a Premium model in GT5 (as often stated by KY), all other versions would take far much less time to add as most of the work would be already done.

That's why in my opinion if in GT5 there will be 200+ Premium models, they really have to be 200+ unique models.
Changing some parts of the car bodywork or even the interior doesn't take 6 months to do.

(sorry for editing often. I'm done now)

 

[stig's helmet]

that's a stupid amount of variations for 1 car. Never the less i'm not bothered...i guess more is better some times. As to the question ^ it's anyones guess at this time tbh

 

[Tornado]

The R34 Skyline GT-R had 11 versions with only very slight differences, both in specifications and in 3D models:

And for that matter, the two Midnight Purple Skylines (three, if you count the R33 version of it) didn't have any differences. The Ford GT was probably supposed to be the same way (stripe versus no stripe), but due to a glitch the performance between the two was actually quite different. Plus, we have all of the GTPSP car list padding shenanigans.

 

[shirakawaa]

And for that matter, the two Midnight Purple Skylines (three, if you count the R33 version of it) didn't have any differences. The Ford GT was probably supposed to be the same way (stripe versus no stripe), but due to a glitch the performance between the two was actually quite different.

The R33 is a completely different 3D car model, so that would count as a variation of the Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33) "base" car for me. Anyway, my point is that since there are so many "doubles" or very similar "variations" of "base" models there's a possibility that we might see in GT5 many more Premiums than we think, if PD (or maybe better, KY) are being honest regarding the efforts put into the game (also because as I said before, I refuse to accept the different confirmed paintjobs of NASCAR cars as individual premium models).

By the way, I'm now curious to check out the number of actually unique cars in GT4. Surely, they will be way more than "200+", but I think much less than 800. I'll try counting them soon when I'll get bored.

 

[Tornado]

The R33 is a completely different 3D car model, so that would count as a variation of the Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33) "base" car for me.

That's what I meant. My apologies for any confusion.

By the way, I'm now curious to check out the number of actually unique cars in GT4. Surely, they will be way more than "200+", but I think much less than 800. I'll try counting them soon when I'll get bored.

The problem with that is, what constitutes "unique?" I mean, sure, we can root out the obvious black and white nonsense like what GTPSP was made up of, but cars like the Honda Civic Type R had the same model over 3 completely different vehicles (Civic race car, the normal Civic Type R and the Spoon Civic Type R).

 

[analog]

The R33 is a completely different 3D car model, so that would count as a variation of the Nissan Skyline GT-R (R33) "base" car for me. Anyway, my point is that since there are so many "doubles" or very similar "variations" of "base" models there's a possibility that we might see in GT5 many more Premiums than we think, if PD (or maybe better, KY) are being honest regarding the efforts put into the game (also because as I said before, I refuse to accept the different confirmed paintjobs of NASCAR cars as individual premium models).

By the way, I'm now curious to check out the number of actually unique cars in GT4. Surely, they will be way more than "200+", but I think much less than 800. I'll try counting them soon when I'll get bored.

Now we're on this subject, I can see it might be logical to use one Premium base model for all different variations or specifications and in some cases it's perhaps not even the visual appearance that needs to be slightly changed but the performance or physics.
The question I have whether this only works for specification or also, albeit differently, on later versions ( facelifts ) of the same car?
Do they have to model each iteration of, for example, Honda NSX seperately as Premium or can they use most of the model already build and alter it to safe time?

 

[Nero9]

As i scanned on the GT2 disc, cars that can be [R] modded have a "Normal" model and a "Racing" model.
In this case [R]Premium models will take a while.
Maybe that's why there are 800 premiums missing...?

 

[shirakawaa]

The problem with that is, what constitutes "unique?" I mean, sure, we can root out the obvious black and white nonsense like what GTPSP was made up of, but cars like the Honda Civic Type R had the same model over 3 completely different vehicles (Civic race car, the normal Civic Type R and the Spoon Civic Type R).

I would look at the car "body", essentially.

If the only differences between two or more models can be found mainly in bumpers, sideskirts, hood, spoiler and maybe a few other little small details that wouldn't have required to remake the car from scratch, then they are variations of the same "base" car in my view.

Race cars, those a bit more difficult however. They usually have completely different interiors that would have to be remade from scratch, and often radically different bodywork. This raises a question (actually, it was Regnar's): should racing modifications be considered as completely different "models"? In my opinion they shouldn't (also because if they did, the unique car count would be dramatically low if we take the 200+ figure as a total Premium car count including them).

This also makes me wonder if there will be "Semi-Premium" cars that have Premium-level modeled bodywork (with good detail, damage, interchangeable/detachable panels, etc) but don't have the interior modeled or properly modeled. Having such models would help raising the "Premium" car count considerably, as car interiors take (in my opinion and from what I read from some amateur modelers) often much more time than the exterior to model.

Now we're on this subject, I can see it might be logical to use one Premium base model for all different variations or specifications and in some cases it's perhaps not even the visual appearance that needs to be slightly changed but the performance or physics.
The question I have whether this only works for specification or also, albeit differently, on later versions ( facelifts ) of the same car?
Do they have to model each iteration of, for example, Honda NSX seperately as Premium or can they use most of the model already build and alter it to safe time?

Often facelifts/model years differ very little from preceding models, even in real life (same panels, body parts, etc). So I guess by logic that modelers could use older versions as a base for later models in many cases. The NSX is a very special case where very few details changed over its life (the only noticeable difference of later models was different front lights from what I remember). Making all NSX models Premiums or "Semi-Premiums" wouldn't take too much additional time compared to modeling a completely different car.

 

[Bourner]

Hold on, someone here mentioned FM3. Please go and check the list and you'll find there is, to a certain extent, car padding in FM3 too. Mainly on race cars I think. A few race cars have identical models, just different paint work.

OK, in comparison with 11 Skylines R34 it's not a lot but it just shows that other games do the same thing. On a different note, if we add all the Skylines, from GT4 and the new ones introduced in GT5, and their variations... How many Skylines of the total car count would we have, over 40?

I really hope that out of the 200 or so Premium cars, these are all unique cars. If it's not and car padding will be used to make that number I'm going to be pretty sad.

What really concerns me is the whole apartheid business with the Standard vs Premium cars. How on earth are the two types of models going to be in the same race? What if damage occurs? It will be so painfully obvious to see the difference in the replays too. They must have a different section for the Standards only, with Standard only events and things. But what about online? What if I really wanted to race a Premium car against a Standard, because I'm really interested in how the 2 cars will match up? Will visual damage have to be disabled, Premium car downgraded to Standard? Ugh, what a mess. If I was running Polyphony I would have just kept quiet about the Standard cars in the first place and not even included them. It's more of a headache that it's worth. Big mistake. Ahh what do I know, perhaps the Standard cars will have their own separate game, like a GT HD Classic or something. I guess time will tell, but, it's a real pickle.

 

[VXR]

Well quite often several race cars tend to be similar models as they're competitive with each other. In the road car selection, there's very few duplicates.

 

[warp9engage]

Well quite often several race cars tend to be similar models as they're competitive with each other. In the road car selection, there's very few duplicates.

And GT5 is also guilty of race-car padding. Take the NASCARs and the JGTC cars. All those different liveries on the NSXs, Nissan GT-Rs and Lexus SC430s will be their own seperate cars on the dealership, most likely.

 

[shirakawaa]

Well quite often several race cars tend to be similar models as they're competitive with each other. In the road car selection, there's very few duplicates.

Actually, my definition of duplicate was a bit broader than that. I defined duplicate ("double" in my posts, wrong term, sorry) cars with the same "base" bodywork, differing from similar versions only for small details or "detacheables" such as bumpers, sideskirts, spoilers, etc.
Most R34 Skylines GT-R models I listed, for example, in a way or another have some very minor bodwork differences (that car is however a case where there are very few exterior changes between all models).

 

[VXR]

I was replying to Bourner's point about padding in FM3.

 

[Bourner]

I was replying to Bourner's point about padding in FM3.

Yes, well, I was trying to show that FM3 also does car padding, but it kinda backfired on me. Not to worry, I can always comment about inconsistency in car model quality, errors, glitches and simply unfinished work in FM3, and FM2 and the original FM. So there, Mr. GT5 Sceptic.

 

[VXR]

I can also counter with cars that are just wrong in GT4 and if they're carried over in GT5, they'll be wrong too, don't worry about that.

I'd question the motives of car fans if they'd rather pick fault with the modeling of some Forza cars rather than enjoy the variety of its line-up, which is one of the best yet. I own several car games at this moment, as they all offer something different and I have Sega GT 2002 on its way, as well, so I can drive my own car in-game. Essentially, I play a lot of car games to sample more types of cars.

 

[Tornado]

Not to worry, I can always comment about inconsistency in car model quality, errors, glitches and simply unfinished work in FM3, and FM2 and the original FM. So there, Mr. GT5 Sceptic.

If you want to play that game, I can easily rattle off at least 100 cars that were incorrect in past GT games that will likely be transferred over to GT5 just as incorrect as they originally were.

 

[shirakawaa]

Hm. I did a quick and inaccurate count and in GT4 there are around 350-400 really unique cars (basing on my criteria previously described), with the good majority of them being non-japanese cars. I'm not so sure anymore that in GT5 the "200+ Premium cars" figure could be for really unique cars.

We'll see at TGS...

 

[VXR]

I have always wondered about the Skylines in particular, but seriously, how would one tell the nuances between a V-Spec I and II or an M-spec or between a V-Spec Nur or M-Spec Nur in a video game? It's just silly really. I think what annoys most is, they do it for the Skyline, RX7 and Impreza, but it would be nice to see some European models get several variants of the same car with little changes to the base car more often. About the only time this happened was with the E46 and Jaguar XJ in GT2, but even then there were clear horsepower differences and not just a slightly different suspension set-up or non-adjustable rear wing.

If they've got the R35, R35 Premium and R35 Black in GT5, that really will be taking the michael!

 

[BrutherSuperior]

I can also counter with cars that are just wrong in GT4 and if they're carried over in GT5, they'll be wrong too, don't worry about that.

I'd question the motives of car fans if they'd rather pick fault with the modeling of some Forza cars rather than enjoy the variety of its line-up, which is one of the best yet. I own several car games at this moment, as they all offer something different and I have Sega GT 2002 on its way, as well, so I can drive my own car in-game. Essentially, I play a lot of car games to sample more types of cars.

How can one enjoy the lineup variety, say, 4-5 months after you've owned the game? Buying DLC, to me at least, is not enjoyable...especially when the cars are uncompetitive.

The on-line hopper system is terrible, the PI system regressed from FM2, the auction house is a mess, and AWD/RWD/FWD parity is non-existent. Sure, the cars are pretty, the audio is good, and it's a good game for a while. But after the honeymoon is over, it's just another game that collects dust b/c of its faults.

The problem with FM3 is over 90% of the cars are uncompetitive no matter what you do -and- the online experience is a headache. Glitches, small mistakes on modeling, etc - these are nothing in the grand scheme of things. FM3, as an on-line racer, is a **** game. As a painting/video/UGC game, it's damn good. But when you want to race something other than the AI, you're better off popping in FM2 instead.

Turn10 screwed the pooch when they implemented on-line hoppers and developed new physics that render anything but AWD cars useless.

 

[CoolColJ]

The way I see it, there are probably 5 main car classes in GT5 like in past GTs

You have 32 unique Premium cars in each class or something, old and new. 5x32 = 160 cars

So that leaves 40-50 for Karts, Nascar, WRC, F1, prototypes and concepts etc.
That's plenty. Most people are not going to driving more than 10 cars in each class on a regular basis. That's about 50-60 cars. Plenty to keep anyone busy on the mulitude of tracks and MP

And we haven't even added in the Standards yet...

 

[Watevaman]

The only thing I really hope is that each class of Premiums has at least enough cars so that the racing field is varied. 10 different Group-C racers would be enough if the field is 16 cars.

 

[Akira AC]

T have to say that the variations doesn't apply to all cars,so is not valid to say that GT4 has 100 cars with 10 variations per car,what is valid to say is that all BMW, Audi's, Ferraris,fiats, Mercedes Benz, Aston martins, Citroen,alpines, Alfa Romeos,jaguars, Chevrolet,lancias,lotus,ruf and so on has 1 base models and 10 different models,that is a wrong assumption,the problem of this is that it only applies to JP manufactures and some European variations like opel.

Sure GT5 will have 1000 cars,but from those 1000 there isn't 100 base models and 10 variations per model,if you see prologue you find like 70 cars,almost all very different,and to be honest its valid to a Japanese game have several variations of the same car(years, not versions),in some cases it cant be said that R34 v spect and mines are the same car,its like saying that the lambo gallardo its the same lambo gallardo supperleggera or the pagani zonda F is the same pagani zonda base.

In a round-up its really like 800 to 900 different models so don't exaggerated this topic.

And on an aside note I will say that in forza they did the same cars from FM2 to forza 3 and at the end you have to pay for the new ones like the new F99xx,the 458 ,the pagani zonda,the super versions of some Ferraris and some Audis so take that in mind that dlc stuff which is pure garbage.

 

[VXR]

How can one enjoy the lineup variety, say, 4-5 months after you've owned the game? Buying DLC, to me at least, is not enjoyable...especially when the cars are uncompetitive.

The on-line hopper system is terrible, the PI system regressed from FM2, the auction house is a mess, and AWD/RWD/FWD parity is non-existent. Sure, the cars are pretty, the audio is good, and it's a good game for a while. But after the honeymoon is over, it's just another game that collects dust b/c of its faults.

The problem with FM3 is over 90% of the cars are uncompetitive no matter what you do -and- the online experience is a headache. Glitches, small mistakes on modeling, etc - these are nothing in the grand scheme of things. FM3, as an on-line racer, is a **** game. As a painting/video/UGC game, it's damn good. But when you want to race something other than the AI, you're better off popping in FM2 instead.

Turn10 screwed the pooch when they implemented on-line hoppers and developed new physics that render anything but AWD cars useless.

I don't play online very often and I take lots of photomode shots, so its issues don't affect me in any way. As I've said before, if it wasn't for photomode in GT4, I'd have dropped the game like a stone as to me it was soulless out on the track, where it mattered.

 

[Griffith500]

Really? What gen is the wii?

Seventh.

What was the Dreamcast?

Sixth.

What abou the 3D0 and the Jaguar?

Never played them; I was into Spectrums and Amigas - they don't really register on the "generation" scale, for some reason.

Hehe caught with your pants down and still doding... face it, you just didn't know software generations was a legitimate term in the game world and stuck your foot in your mouth over it... oh and these guys get there stuff from... themselves.... saying software generations is blindsiding you with marketing crap is like saying "model year" is some obscure term... grow up and admit it when you're wrong!

Are you really as smug as all of that? I knew what software generations were, but that's not what you wrote, and, yes, I had an off moment where I missed both the implied context (despite the title of a thread, the topic does waver from time to time, does it not?) and this other implied qualification (software, as opposed to hardware).

Or we are in a thread about standards and premiums and it was in response to a post showing pictures of cars from a game and comparing it to cars in GT5... you really don't get the whole topic thing do you...

Do you cover your eyes while you read posts and yell "alallalalalala"?

What? I was explaining where I missed the context. And how you pulled this out of your blowhole:

you are so wrapped up in wanting to prove GT5 is gonna be awesome you can't participate in the point of the current topic

You are the one who started with all the angry jumping around, your quotes of "patronizing crap" are ironic since you are the one who started being rude and patronizing out of your own ignorance of a common term. Something which seems to be a trait with you since any kind of slang seems to through your comprehension into a tail spin.

If you're going to quote me (which is what I assume the " are for) then get it right, eh? It was "patronising drivel", and I stand by it. You actually started with the patronising - or perhaps your character doesn't allow you to call it that - with your first response. If you were seeking to truly help me, that's not how it came off. What threw me off further was you then saying "second generation", which of course, is not "many". If you're going to criticise my comprehension, better check yours is up to scratch first.

I wipe my hands of this now. PM me if you wish to make more stuff up to massage your ego. 👍

---------------

For everyone else's benefit: I apologise that this infantile discourse has clogged up the last few pages a little bit. This post marks the end of my involvement.

 

[shadynader]

Man i sure hope you can mix premiums and standards online. Just knowing that maybe 1 of the other 15 drivers disapprove of my standard car on the same track as them will bring a perverse smile to my face.

Anyway, roll on November because some people have spent a very unhealthy amount of time showing their discontent in this thread.

 

[shirakawaa]

@akiraacecombat:
For "same car" or "base car", I was referring to a 3D car modeling perspective, even if in real life what I define "variation of a base car" is mechanically very different from the "base car".

So, while in real life a Pagani Zonda F is mechanically/internally much different than the "base" Pagani Zonda, the 3D model used in Gran Turismo is instead very similar.

Following this principle (recycling/reusing similar cars) Polyphony Digital should have been able to model way more than the "200+ Premium cars" they officially cite. I will be negatively surprised if they didn't.

 

[DestinyDanny]

Man i sure hope you can mix premiums and standards online. Just knowing that maybe 1 of the other 15 drivers disapprove of my standard car on the same track as them will bring a perverse smile to my face.

Anyway, roll on November because some people have spent a very unhealthy amount of time showing their discontent in this thread.

So true that!, as for the Standard car online, that would be hilarious!, i really hope we can race them all together.

 

[Jedi2016]

So, while in real life a Pagani Zonda F is mechanically/internally much different than the "base" Pagani Zonda, the 3D model used in Gran Turismo is instead very similar.

Unfortunately, 3D modeling doesn't work that way. You can't just "tweak" a mesh and have it look different, not without compromising the flow of the polygons, creating all kinds of visible mesh errors. In the case of the Zonda S>F, it would be far easier to make a new one from scratch.

 

[shirakawaa]

GT5 models are made in a "modular" way, not as a single mesh like GT4 models, so it should be possible without compromising the general mesh quality of the model. But even on a single-mesh model, adding details shouldn't prove to be an enormous task compared to starting all over again.
Either way, it doesn't make sense to make both the Zonda F and S from scratch since they have so many features in common*.

Modularity/reusability is the same principle which will allows customisation of body parts (or as it already did partially in GT4 with wings. Stock rear spoilers when present were "separate" parts that could be replaced with after-market wings. That didn't require a new car model for each wing).

* No, seriously. They do have some differences, but the car body is essentially the same. PD would be masochists if they decided to model both cars from scratch:
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2005/2005-Pagani-Zonda-F-n-FA-Top-1024x768.jpg
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-pqr/Pagani-Zonda-S-73-SA-Studio-1280x960.jpg

http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/pagani_zonda.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25177654@N07/4622939477/in/photostream/lightbox/

 

[freshseth83]

What I have to say is that in previous GT games, even the Super GT (JGTC) cars like the Supra were slightly different. The Castrol Supra couldn't set lap times that the Denso SARD Supra could. This is true in Super GT. Not all cars are equal. Just because you have A Xanavi Nismo GTR and a blue Calsonic GTR doesn't mean they are the exact same car. They could potentially be tuned differently. Gearing is different. Sterring ratio could be different. They have, in real life, have different drivers, so they could have different characteristics. Of course with tuning they might not be different, but though the Castrol Supra and the DENSO SARD were the same car, they were not the same.