Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Ryan81]

The good thing with the standards is if PD spend the last couple of months or so making them look at least respectable next to the premiums. I'm not saying they have to look like premiums 100% but I do hope they are more than simply upscaled GT4 models.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

It was possible to make a career mode in GT3, which had less than 200 cars if I recall correctly, so why not in GT5?

Yea, but GT3 didn't have another 800 cars.

Anything is possible, but it doesn't make it suitable or reasonable for the circumstance.

 

[RAVELLRON]

my personal feeling is i don't see the hour to drive my countach standard car..

 

[paulpg87]

Yea, but GT3 didn't have another 800 cars.

Anything is possible, but it doesn't make it suitable or reasonable for the circumstance.

Imo there'll be 2 different gt mode. One with the premium from the capuccino to the Enzo and one with the standard cars.

 

[Ryan81]

It depends on how you define "weak". I'm not sure how many cars are in F3 (I have a few of the DLC packs, but not all of them), but it sure as hell doesn't seem like 500.

Realistically speaking, most players will only ever use Premium cars. Not because they're Premium, but just because those are the cars that best fit the required racing. There won't really be a need to drive any of the others except for nostalgia or just wanting to drive a particular car. Look at the car list.. it's not like we're lacking in selection amongst the Premium cars. I'm perfectly fine having "only" 200 cars, because those will end up being the cars I actually want to drive.

I have all the DLCs and according to the in-game car count there are 495 cars.
With all the DLC packs, there's an extra 100 or so.

My definition/view of "weak" would be too many identical models, simply with different cosmetic designs/liveries, not enough balance between JP, EU and US models (which I think Forza did very well with) and a serious lack of very recent supercars. Not to mention the absence of historic marques like Porsche and no new Aston Martins.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Imo there'll be 2 different gt mode. One with the premium from the capuccino to the Enzo and one with the standard cars.

If I understand amar's comment correctly, that would almost have to be the case, with a new car available right from the start.

Or winnable through the first license test.

 

[Ryan81]

If you aren't aware of any inside knowledge or all the ins and outs of whether offering Standard cars was intentional and planned from the start deliberately ( and I believe you they were, although one source is no source in journalism ) it isn't actually that ridiculous or nonsensical to assume this might be the case.

In fact it's no shame wanting to outdo the competition by whatever means, forced or not, although if this Standard/Premium was deliberate and planned totally unrelated to any pressure what so ever my reservation about offering these cars which do make the game as a whole inconsistent in my opinion still stands whether I should regard them as a bonus or not or use them or not.

If they were clear themselves about what the differences would imply early on I would have more readily accepted them for what they are, since the full extend was only made clear very recently after years of silence ( and it's too easy to claim I told you so, since not too long ago if you dared to ask whether Standard cars would have interior view for example you were the subject of mockery as interior view was related to damage as opposed to cockpit view, how times have changed ).

The fact they always talked about 950 to a 1000 cars did suggest to most here ( let alone the casual observer ) the differences weren't that large to be completely categorised into a different type of modelling ( by upgrading old assets ).
So even if the choice to do it could be defended and appreciated, the way they explained it by keeping schtum is misleading in my view.
They weren't lying ofcourse but they were very economical with the truth.

I was, likewise, misled. I honestly believed that 1,000 cars were all going to have cockpit view because that was the message I was receiving from so many people. It would have been nice if PD had been more forthright to begin with, not ducking the question every time someone asked "Will all cars have cockpit views?" and then hiding behind the language translation BS.
Finally, when they could no longer run from the question, they came out with the response they knew many of us would dread.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

If that's the case, then it's good (if the standard cars are only optional and you can complete the game using premium cars only) Just hope they give you enough money at the start of the game to buy a premium car.....

You must drive standard car's in license test...

 

[Ryan81]

If I understand Amar's comment correctly, that would almost have to be the case, with a new car available right from the start.

Let's hope this is the case. Perhaps that's why we haven't seen standard and premium cars racing together?

 

[Dravonic]

Idea of GT5 being forced to have more cars than FM3 - and that PD was forced upon something else - have to be the most ridicoluos idea in past time.

I really will spit some beans here because this discussion is really getting ridiciluos, and tell that whole thing about Standard/Premium was already known internally even before 2009, when PSP game was being finished and when decision was made to made cars interchangable for those who are fans of the series and have invested their time in Gtpsp. Also, PD wanted to have strong Used Cars section in GT4 because of history of the series and wish to continue the whole Used Cars philisophy of older models.

I made a statement about that in my Wind thread, clearly stating that many cars wil come in form from GT4.

In GT5 you will have no need to use one single Standard car for any gameplay purposes, all licenses and Special races (Missions, Event Tests, Manufactorers tests, etc..) will be run with Premiums and Premiums are the foundatiin cars of GT5.

Standard models are bonus, they will be almost exclusively represented through Used Car section and you can play the game without any know of their existance.

But all above also does not change that GT5 will have 1000 cars on disposal for those intrested. However, it has nothing to do with any other game, PD being forced to do anything or any similar nonsense. It is a deliberate decision, executed in order to enhance gameplay and series heritage and to allow wider scope of the game.

If all of you really think that is bad or wrong or gamebreaking from perspective of the actual scope and diversity of the overall content and reach of the game, than I really do not know what to tell.

I hope you're right about this because it certainly is the most sensible thing to do. Keep the standards to those who wish them.

What begs the question: Why PD never mentioned this from the start? What's the need for the secrecy and misleading PR when standards are a good thing?

They were so eager to make the game sound unbelievably awesome that they end up turning a bonus into a letdown.

 

[Jedi2016]

So if it's a question of poly-count, could we theoretically have races with 30-40 Standard cars on the track?

Just thought I'd throw that out there.. lol.

 

[Dapper]

The fact they always talked about 950 to a 1000 cars did suggest to most here ( let alone the casual observer ) the differences weren't that large to be completely categorised into a different type of modelling ( by upgrading old assets ).

You do understand "casual observers" have no clue what this thread is about?

So even if the choice to do it could be defended and appreciated, the way they explained it by keeping schtum is misleading in my view.
They weren't lying ofcourse but they were very economical with the truth.

That is not what I remember. They gave an explaination, just because you didn't like, or listen to it, doesn't mean they didn't say it.
From 6 months ago-
https://www.gtplanet.net/latest-yamauchi-interview-sparks-confusion/

 

[Dravonic]

So if it's a question of poly-count, could we theoretically have races with 30-40 Standard cars on the track?

Just thought I'd throw that out there.. lol.

There's a lot more to it than polygons. For example, would the PS3 be able to calculate the physics for 30 or 40 cars?

That is not what I remember. They gave an explaination, just because you didn't like, or listen to it, doesn't mean they didn't say it.
From 6 months ago-
https://www.gtplanet.net/latest-yamauchi-interview-sparks-confusion/

From the article you quoted:

Before you explode or break something, though, take a deep breath and you’ll realize not everything in this statement lines up with what we already know and what we’ve already seen. We first learned about the two different levels of damage in August of last year, when it was revealed that 170 “premium” cars would show severe damage, with detachable parts. The remaining 830 standard models would feature more conservative scratches. So, it doesn’t make any sense as to why Yamauchi would now say that the standard models have “no damage model”.

His comments about the interior view don’t make sense, either. Aside from the fact that the Official PlayStation Magazine’s GT5 feature explicitly confirmed interior view for all cars, we’ve seen the interiors of dozens of cars which appear to only have the “standard” model of damage. The Ferrari 458 Italia (interior/damage), Lamborghini Gallardo (interior/damage), and Mercedes SLS AMG (interior/damage) all come to mind.

Obviously, six months ago was too late already and we would need far more than a single sentence to actually understand what he meant.

 

[Ryan81]

Ok, how does one explain this:

https://www.gtplanet.net/night-racing-weather-indy-cars-irl-confirmed-for-gt5/

According to this article, ALL 1,000 cars will have cockpit views. Was that a lie?

 

[Dapper]

Obviously, six months ago was too late already and we would need far more than a single sentence to actually understand what he meant.

Maybe you need more than one sentence, I do not. You highlighted Jordan's quotes- why? That is the problem! You take what Jordan said and wha the Playstation Official Magazine said into account, bad idea.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You do understand "casual observers" have no clue what this thread is about?
That is not what I remember. They gave an explaination, just because you didn't like, or listen to it, doesn't mean they didn't say it.
From 6 months ago-
https://www.gtplanet.net/latest-yamauchi-interview-sparks-confusion/

Six months ago was already at the 5 yr high water mark.

Not exactly what I'd call being "up front".

There were some indications previously, but certainly nothing concrete.

IMO this void of reliable info is what has fueled individual expectation and the accompanied reaction to this concept.

 

[Seismica]

I'd like to think they're even less than a bonus. Just something to keep the car count up.

So you'd rather have just 200 cars? You're more concerned about them bumping up the car count for marketing/sales reasons than you are about your overall enjoyment of the game. This is why some people find your point of view hard to understand. We have already established that they led us on about the cockpit view... But as Amar stated, standard cars were added as a bonus and were talked about as early as 2008.

I really hope for the game's sake that the standard cars will not be represented in career mode. It would just look funny to mix two types of cars in a race, of which the level of detail are lightyears apart.

They will be in career mode in the form of used cars. What we don't know is whether they will be in the races. It's a question I want answering too. I want the races to be mixed, I want the races to have a more diverse range of cars. With 16 car grids I do not want the AI to be restricted to only using 200 of them. And when you think of all the different types of racing, you're going to get several duplicate cars per race like in the demos - I do not want this.

It was possible to make a career mode in GT3, which had less than 200 cars if I recall correctly, so why not in GT5?

Even with GT3, with only 6 car grids, you would continuously get repeated car grids. Imagine that with 16 car grids, with a wider variety of racing series, which thins out the AI ranks further. The career mode was very short in comparison to GT4 and GT2, it had little depth (For a GT game) and little re-play value due to the poor variety of cars in the game.

What I do agree with is that Premium cars should be the centre of the game, all the license tests and driving missions etc. But for the actual races I want to get some of those standard cars in there. Maybe there could be an option to turn standard AI cars on/off. That would make everyone happy.

 

[alucard0712]

Ok, how does one explain this:

https://www.gtplanet.net/night-racing-weather-indy-cars-irl-confirmed-for-gt5/

According to this article, ALL 1,000 cars will have cockpit views. Was that a lie?

Yes.No IRL too.

 

[Ryan81]

I think you make a good point, Seismica. Unfortunately.

If there aren't mixed races, then there will be many duplicates if there are 16 cars on track at any one time.

For example, on the youtube vid with the Enzo. You had the Enzo, 458, ZR1, ACR, GT by Citroen and that's about it. Perhaps another one or two more.

 

[zero6]

 

[Seismica]

I think you make a good point, Seismica. Unfortunately.

If there aren't mixed races, then there will be many duplicates if there are 16 cars on track at any one time.

For example, on the youtube vid with the Enzo. You had the Enzo, 458, ZR1, ACR, GT by Citroen and that's about it. Perhaps another one or two more.

I'm racing the DTM race on GT3 at the moment. Half the grid is in a CLK (Including me) Then there are two Calibras and an Astra.

In GT4 the DTM event was good, because there was a good variety of cars that could enter (Apart from the CLK-GTR that ruined the race in the NTSC version).

So far no DTM cars have been confirmed as premium. So is there going to be no DTM event in GT5? I doubt it, it's likely it'll use the standards.

 

[Dravonic]

Maybe you need more than one sentence, I do not. You highlighted Jordan's quotes- why? That is the problem! You take what Jordan said and wha the Playstation Official Magazine said into account, bad idea.

That's the thing. You can't believe everything you hear, not even what you hear from Yamauchi. Look at the very first comment:

Probably mistranslated, like a lot of his interviews.

Now you'll laugh at it as a fanboy's last hope but back then it made a lot of sense. That's exactly why I highlighted Jodan's quotes. They clearly show how we had a ton of information indicating otherwise but just a single sentence from Yamauchi indicating the actual truth, well part of it since standard cars do have damage.

You can come along now saying "He said it all along and it's your fault you didn't believe him!" but you're neglecting years of misleading PR and taking his statement completely out of context.

Either way it doesn't matter. As I said, six months ago was already too late. If we did believe in Kaz then and found out six months ago what standards really were, they would still be a letdown, not a bonus.

 

[Dapper]

You can come along now saying "He said it all along and it's your fault you didn't believe him!" but you're neglecting years of misleading PR.

Show me. I don't remember PD saying 1000 cockpits all of the same quality in all the same quality cars.

Over a year ago (kind of funny they cite GTPlanet)-
http://www.1up.com/news/gran-turismo-5-1000-cars

 

[Jedi2016]

Show me. I don't remember PD saying 1000 cockpits all of the same quality in all the same quality cars.

Exactly. Remember that every public announcement is carefully written and approved before it goes out. If you read the actual announcements and press releases, you'll find they promised no such thing. "1000 cars and interior view" is NOT the same thing as "1000 cars with interior view". It's all in the wording.

That's why a lot of developers, Yamauchi included, will take the "no comment" or "we're not ready to talk about that yet" route when asked a question in person.

 

[Dravonic]

Show me. I don't remember PD saying 1000 cockpits all of the same quality in all the same quality cars.

The very fact they never showed a single standard car screenshot until E3 is misleading. The very fact GT5P has no trace of standard cars is misleading. And I could go on and on but I'll make it short:

If standard cars aren't a big shock to you, you weren't following GT5's development years ago.

 

[CerealKiller]

I was, likewise, misled. I honestly believed that 1,000 cars were all going to have cockpit view because that was the message I was receiving from so many people. It would have been nice if PD had been more forthright to begin with, not ducking the question every time someone asked "Will all cars have cockpit views?" and then hiding behind the language translation BS.
Finally, when they could no longer run from the question, they came out with the response they knew many of us would dread.

All due respect but I don't think that's fair, there were all kinds of comments from PD indicating they would not have cockpit views, people just refused to accept it on places like these forums and then the popular opinion spreads like wildfire. People here were latching onto every possible interpretation to avoid the most obvious one.

We just need to be careful to not get swept up in forum mentality. It can be very misleading at times, and very negative as well.

 

[Spagetti69]

Show me. I don't remember PD saying 1000 cockpits all of the same quality in all the same quality cars.

No they have never said that at all.
They don't really say anything.

After playing prologue though, I thought prologue meant that it was a prologue of things to come and expect.

Seems as though prologue is a prologue of GT6. Assuming that GT6 will have a fairly comparative car modelling scheme.

I doubt however we will know much more about GT6 than we know about GT5, 8 weeks before release.

 

[VXR]

Idea of GT5 being forced to have more cars than FM3 - and that PD was forced upon something else - have to be the most ridicoluos idea in past time.

Why is it ridiculous? In a 200 car line-up with some of those being Nascar and WRC cars, there isn't a great deal of variety. For any given category there's an inherent lack of variety. By ignoring several variants of Impreza, Skyline, RX7 etc, FM3 used this space to have a lot of rival products that could make varied races, with few grids with duplicate cars in an 8-car grid. Now view this in GT5 and within the premium selection on 16 cars grids, if there's only 4 Ferraris, there'll be a higher number of duplicates.

Any way you look at it, in marketing terms GT5 having less cars than Forza is not an enviable position. The marketing department wouldn't care that the 800 other cars are last-gen by necessity - it's just a number they can put on the box/in a press release. By the same token, FM3 was rushed, because Microsoft are a rubbish publisher who wanted the game out for a strict date and the game felt rushed. Be thankful GT isn't being run to those strict standards, because GT5 would be severely limited, too.

EDIT: I've just seen Seismica said the same about the duplicate grids.

 

[infamousDee]

http://i.imgur.com/KCOCw.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2495/4084686543_d577ed4acc_o.jpg

That was unnecessary, to say the least. 👎

 

[Jedi2016]

The very fact they never showed a single standard car screenshot until E3 is misleading. The very fact GT5P has no trace of standard cars is misleading. And I could go on and on but I'll make it short:

If standard cars aren't a big shock to you, you weren't following GT5's development years ago.

It's not misleading, it's marketing. They never lied about any of it. Just because you thought all of the cars were going to be the same doesn't mean that they came right out and told you that all of the cars would be the same.

And to counter your last, I've been following GT5 pretty much since GT4 launched. And I wasn't "shocked" by the "surprise announcement" of standard cars.

And I'll repeat my last. How many of those standard cars will people actually drive? How many of them are cars that people actually want? "Oh, I'm really pissed by my 1994 Nissan Micra didn't get the Premium treatment"? Come on. Yeah, GT4 had a bazillion cars in it, and everybody here drove the same 50.

There's a lot more to the game than how many cars it has.