Car handling --- Different online

Thanks again to all of those here who actually tried to constructively help with this issue.

For those who just kept popping in an insisting over and over that "it's just the tires and fuel weight". Go choose a car we know is altered considerably (you'll find many examples in the thread above). Now try that car offline and online on a number of different tracks after you update to 1.06. Be sure to turn off the tire-wear and fuel consumption online. Look at that, same problem as before.

(Gentle rant: Why so many people kept denying this problem existed may be largely due to the fact that it effects different cars and tracks by vastly different amounts. However, there was plenty of carefully collected data and evidence in this thread to conclusively determine that tires and fuel alone absolutely could not be the problem. There was also testimony from persons involved in motorsports stating that tire-temperature and fuel-weight, while important, do not effect a car's handling anywhere near the degree seen, for example, on the Trial Mountain track in RR cars. This is why it's so important to understand the scientific process, rather than simply "believing" something. It seems to me that to many people just wanted to "believe" that PD had not bungled this, and that no amount of rational discourse and evidence would ever be sufficient to change those minds. I too would have preferred GT5 to be perfect. I would prefer one physics model. But despite my wishes, this was not the case. No amount of insisting it was the case would have changed this.)

So, even though the question itself as to what is going on can be put to rest, we still don't have any clear idea *why* PD did this and if it will ever be fixed. I'm sick and tired of my favorite cars handling like two completely different vehicles. Drives me nuts!

panjandrum

Now try that car offline and online on a number of different tracks after you update to 1.06. Be sure to turn off the tire-wear and fuel consumption online. Look at that, same problem as before.

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IMO, checking that box only stops the tire wear and fuel consumption, but does not subtract the weight of the fuel from the tank, whereas offline there is no weight of fuel in the tank. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. It performs exactly as I expect, every time I test it.

NitrouStang96

IMO, checking that box only stops the tire wear and fuel consumption, but does not subtract the weight of the fuel from the tank, whereas offline there is no weight of fuel in the tank. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. It performs exactly as I expect, every time I test it.

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You've just made my point. Thank you. (I'm not trying to be insulting. You really did just illustrate my point perfectly.)

You might want to read through the thread above. People have mentioned that these features are also available in a number of place offline (endurance races, for example), and that in those races the car drive the same as in other offline races.

panjandrum

You've just made my point. Thank you. (I'm not trying to be insulting. You really did just illustrate my point perfectly.)

You might want to read through the thread above. People have mentioned that these features are also available in a number of place offline (endurance races, for example), and that in those races the car drive the same as in other offline races.

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Exactly.. I did a 4 hr tsukuba Mazda mx-5 race the other day(s). Even with fuel and tire wear the handling or "physics" were not the same as it was online.

It felt like fuel had weight the entire race too. When it was low I could do faster laps, etc.. I haven't tried comparisons after the update though, hopefully they worked on this issue.

panjandrum

You've just made my point. Thank you. (I'm not trying to be insulting. You really did just illustrate my point perfectly.)

You might want to read through the thread above. People have mentioned that these features are also available in a number of place offline (endurance races, for example), and that in those races the car drive the same as in other offline races.

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You're not insulting. Perhaps I need to clarify:

Whether the features are available or not while online or offline, it has not been my experience that the weight is accounted for the same offline as offline. Whether wear/consumption exists or not doesn't matter.

I just thought of another way to test it: I'll go into offline practice and add 100L's weight of ballast to the rear.

I tried to drive my C8 online on sport hards, lol spun out instantly, I had to take the corners at much lower speeds and crawl round the track. It was like being on comfort hards in the rain. Tried the Zonda C12S, High Speed Ring Sport Soft, wow it was very loose in the end I wiped out. Something is very off with the physics, as the Zonda is usualy rock solid for me.

I found out that when you creating the room and put the race quality as very high then you don't see much of difference in online and offline racing. If the room creator set as normal then the car will react differently! I think the lag makes the difference!

I'm reviving this thread because my own threads on this topic keep getting deleted. Yeah I know this is an old issue, and I didn't read this entire thread but I have a piece of data that might add some fuel to the fire.

I am in a spec Cappucino Series the last few weeks and have run hundreds of racing and test laps at 5 different tracks. To begin with, the online physics of this car vs. offline is dramatic. The first race was at Grand Valley East and offline the car was on rails, with massive grip, online it was so bad, I went back to the pits to make sure I had racing softs on. Fuel consumption, tire wear, tire heat etc. had no effect on this handling and I could never get anywhere near the offline physics.

Our most recent race was at Cape Ring South and in practice sessions and in the race something else happened that threw another monkey wrench into the gears. In Sunday practice sessions, which someone else hosted, I struggled to get down to 1:25 after lots of practice and laps. Next day, in my own lobby, exact same set up, all of a sudden I'm easily running 1:24.2 with considerably more grip and managed a couple of 1:23.8's. Next day we have the race, and all of a sudden I'm back to a best of 1:25 flat and I'm not the only one that noticed the same thing. At least one other consistently fast driver said he also lost 1+ second per lap and considering that the gap between first and me in fourth after a spin was identical after 20 laps, all the top 4 must also have lost 1+ second per lap. Just for laughs, I ran some laps offline and was instantaneously faster, with lots more grip and in less than 3 laps I was in the 1:22's.

So my conclusion is, not only is there a difference in offline vs. online physics, but there is a difference room to room or host to host or perhaps day to day. I don't care if the physics are different, all my cars are set up to run online anyway, but I'd at least like it to be consistent. I've been following some posts on laptimes in GT500 rooms and for the most part they seem achievable, but there are always some that seem so out of whack, and I'm wondering if this is the reason why.

Why does this matter? Well I like to drive on the ragged edge because I like to win quite frankly. Driving on the ragged edge leaves a tiny margin of error lets call it less than 1% (2/10ths in 70 seconds is .3% actually). I think that's pretty accurate because in 4-5 laps sprints my last few laps are often all within a couple of tenths. But if the physics change 2% (1.4/70 seconds) then that means instead of a blistering fast lap, I'm in the grass or have a shortcut penalty or hit someone from behind because the braking and cornering grip isn't quite the same.

I believe this explains why some nights I just can't be beat no matter what kind of cars I'm driving and I feel like I'm in total control and some other nights I feel like I'm a newbie getting into my first ride. Anyone else have that experience? I used to think I was just having an off night, and I'm kind of relieved to know it's not me, it's actually PD, but at the same time, I wish they'd fix this issue somehow, if it's possible.

Johnnypenso

there is a difference room to room or host to host or perhaps day to day.

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I've noticed a handling change from driving around pre-race and then when the race starts it feels different. I think it's a bottleneck when processing data. It may either depend on your (and everyone else's) connection AND/OR it may also have something to do with the amount of detail your PS3 is able to process at a given moment.

16 people driving around the Ring at different parts of the track before a race starts means your PS3 may only have to process one or two people on your screen as you're driving near them, but when the race starts and your PS3 has to process 15 other cars around you, it can cause your system to slow down.

I believe it may be more tied to PS3 processing speed than it is to network speed. The reason is because the 24h Ring track; everybody knows about the issues with the track disappearing on that course. I believe it's because in addition to 15 cars around you, your PS3 also has to process variable time and variable weather on the largest track in the game.

Johnnypenso

I'm reviving this thread because my own threads on this topic keep getting deleted. Yeah I know this is an old issue, and I didn't read this entire thread but I have a piece of data that might add some fuel to the fire.

I am in a spec Cappucino Series the last few weeks and have run hundreds of racing and test laps at 5 different tracks. To begin with, the online physics of this car vs. offline is dramatic. The first race was at Grand Valley East and offline the car was on rails, with massive grip, online it was so bad, I went back to the pits to make sure I had racing softs on. Fuel consumption, tire wear, tire heat etc. had no effect on this handling and I could never get anywhere near the offline physics.

Our most recent race was at Cape Ring South and in practice sessions and in the race something else happened that threw another monkey wrench into the gears. In Sunday practice sessions, which someone else hosted, I struggled to get down to 1:25 after lots of practice and laps. Next day, in my own lobby, exact same set up, all of a sudden I'm easily running 1:24.2 with considerably more grip and managed a couple of 1:23.8's. Next day we have the race, and all of a sudden I'm back to a best of 1:25 flat and I'm not the only one that noticed the same thing. At least one other consistently fast driver said he also lost 1+ second per lap and considering that the gap between first and me in fourth after a spin was identical after 20 laps, all the top 4 must also have lost 1+ second per lap. Just for laughs, I ran some laps offline and was instantaneously faster, with lots more grip and in less than 3 laps I was in the 1:22's.

So my conclusion is, not only is there a difference in offline vs. online physics, but there is a difference room to room or host to host or perhaps day to day. I don't care if the physics are different, all my cars are set up to run online anyway, but I'd at least like it to be consistent. I've been following some posts on laptimes in GT500 rooms and for the most part they seem achievable, but there are always some that seem so out of whack, and I'm wondering if this is the reason why.

Why does this matter? Well I like to drive on the ragged edge because I like to win quite frankly. Driving on the ragged edge leaves a tiny margin of error lets call it less than 1% (2/10ths in 70 seconds is .3% actually). I think that's pretty accurate because in 4-5 laps sprints my last few laps are often all within a couple of tenths. But if the physics change 2% (1.4/70 seconds) then that means instead of a blistering fast lap, I'm in the grass or have a shortcut penalty or hit someone from behind because the braking and cornering grip isn't quite the same.

I believe this explains why some nights I just can't be beat no matter what kind of cars I'm driving and I feel like I'm in total control and some other nights I feel like I'm a newbie getting into my first ride. Anyone else have that experience? I used to think I was just having an off night, and I'm kind of relieved to know it's not me, it's actually PD, but at the same time, I wish they'd fix this issue somehow, if it's possible.

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Yup I notice differences from room to room and day to day too. GT5 totally wrecked on-line physics. It shouldn't matter if there's lag or if there's a lot going on on the screen. Other sims don't suffer this strange problem. The sad thing is that PD and Kaz won't even admit there is a problem so I guess the chances of this ever being fixed is about zero %.

BWX

Yup I notice differences from room to room and day to day too. GT5 totally wrecked on-line physics. It shouldn't matter if there's lag or if there's a lot going on on the screen. Other sims don't suffer this strange problem. The sad thing is that PD and Kaz won't even admit there is a problem so I guess the chances of this ever being fixed is about zero %.

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I've never played any other racing games online but I'll take your word for it that other games don't have this problem, and if that is the case, we aren't reinventing the wheel here and it should be easy to fix, but if PD won't even admit there is a problem, you're right, there's little chance of fixing it. And worse, and I don't know if this is the case or not but if their official answer is "tire wear" or "fuel load" then they haven't got a clue to begin with anyway.

BWX

Other sims don't suffer this strange problem.

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Other sims either don't have the level of detail that GT5 does or require computers that far exceed the ability of the PS3.

Sure GT5 is not as good as sims available for PC, but it's the best there is for consoles; it's a good balance between affordable console game and hardcore sim.

Johnnypenso

I've never played any other racing games online but I'll take your word for it that other games don't have this problem, and if that is the case, we aren't reinventing the wheel here and it should be easy to fix, but if PD won't even admit there is a problem, you're right, there's little chance of fixing it. And worse, and I don't know if this is the case or not but if their official answer is "tire wear" or "fuel load" then they haven't got a clue to begin with anyway.

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Actually, it must be related to tires, if you switch off the tire wears in online mode you car will handle just like in offline practice mode.

JPzer

Actually, it must be related to tires, if you switch off the tire wears in online mode you car will handle just like in offline practice mode.

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Really? You sure about that?

BWX

Really? You sure about that?

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Almost 100% positive, I am very constant I can spend quite some time to tune a car for a certain track (always in online mode). If I disable the tire wear in online mode I turn about 1 sec faster.

JPzer

Actually, it must be related to tires, if you switch off the tire wears in online mode you car will handle just like in offline practice mode.

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I've also noticed that.. I can't say that is's EXACTLY like offline, cause I've simply not tested enough. But it sure feels a lot grippier with tyre wear off.

When driving with tyre wear ON, the wear indicators are never completeley full. There is always a bit of grip "missing" compared to offline/tyre wear OFF even when you've just leaved the pits. When driving offline/tyre wear OFF the wear indicators are filled to the max.

JPzer

Actually, it must be related to tires, if you switch off the tire wears in online mode you car will handle just like in offline practice mode.

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Assuming that's true and I have no reason to doubt you, I think that's still a crappy reason for the difference. Since when do racecars have tirewear coming out of the pits? If that is what PD is trying to do is simulate tire wear, then the first couple of laps should be the same online vs. offline with a slow deterioration after that, not instantly 1 second slower. And if that is true, about how their tire wear simulation works, just press the "fix it" button PD!!!!

Johnnypenso

Assuming that's true and I have no reason to doubt you, I think that's still a crappy reason for the difference. Since when do racecars have tirewear coming out of the pits? If that is what PD is trying to do is simulate tire wear, then the first couple of laps should be the same online vs. offline with a slow deterioration after that, not instantly 1 second slower. And if that is true, about how their tire wear simulation works, just press the "fix it" button PD!!!!

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Actually in real life cars will hava a ... whats it called...

Cold tires.

So you will have to carefull in the first laps. The problem is that in offline you never have to worry about tires. They are allways in perfect conditions.

KamyKaze1098

Actually in real life cars will hava a ... whats it called...

Cold tires.

So you will have to carefull in the first laps. The problem is that in offline you never have to worry about tires. They are allways in perfect conditions.

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Not in endurance races.. Handling and grip is different there under same conditions than online on same car with same track. Read the whole thread, plenty of examples.

KamyKaze1098

Actually in real life cars will hava a ... whats it called...

Cold tires.

So you will have to carefull in the first laps. The problem is that in offline you never have to worry about tires. They are allways in perfect conditions.

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Not trying to be argumentative but if you don't notice a difference in offline and online handling characteristics of most cars, you just haven't driven enough, or you aren't close enough to the limit of the cars to notice the difference. It has nothing to do with cold tires or tires wearing. I have experimented with the same car, which I have run hundreds of laps with and it ran three different lap times offline, online in my own lobby and online in a private lounge, and in that order. Even when the tires were warmed up, I could not get the grip or laps times I could get offline.

In the next couple of days I'm going to do a bit of experimenting with the "tire wear" off and on in online mode and see how much of a difference it makes.

JPzer

Actually, it must be related to tires, if you switch off the tire wears in online mode you car will handle just like in offline practice mode.

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I'm not sure if this might be a difference between wheel and pad users? At any rate, at least when using a wheel, I can tell you that the above statement is 100% incorrect. Cars still handle differently regardless of the tire-wear setting. They just aren't cold for the first few corners...

I finally have collaboration from other real-life RR motorsports drivers regarding the handling online/offline in these cars. I had two people over for a weekend of ice-racing, both of whom have experience driving classic-era Porsche 911s in motorsports; autocross and track. One of them has now moved from an early 80s 911 to a Boxter, but has over a decade experience track-racing his 911. Both of them are also racing-sim enthusiasts, especially of the GT series. None of us can drive the Yellowbird, BTR or Alpine in online mode without substantial tweaking (in the end, we came up with a solution that worked kinda-sorta OK, I'll put the details below.) However, offline all these cars felt "about right" to us. The main problem remains that in online mode these cars just do not handle like RR cars actually handle. Instead they throttle-steer like an FR car instead of like an RR car. It's just so utterly wrong... You might be better off if you don't drive RR cars in real-life, so you wouldn't have to unlearn reality in order to drive them in sim-land.

Setting up your RR (MR?) car for online racing:

In essence, RR cars in online mode handle much more like an FR car than they should. In certain ways they seem to even exaggerate FR handling characteristics. The clearest example of this is how RR cars, in online mode, so easily spin-up their rear tires under throttle. In reality the considerable weight over the rear-tires gives RR cars massive rear-end traction compared to an FR car of similar power. RR cars online also produce tremendous amounts of snap-back as soon as you let the rear "step out" at all as you let-off throttle. However in real-life this method is commonly used (I use it myself all the time) and snap-back is rarely an issue. My guess is that the persons responsible for online handling models at PD has never driven an RR car "at the limit". Or if they did, they did not first have lessons from someone who actually knows how to drive them properly and simply treated them like an FR car with a heavy butt. Wrong wrong wrong...

To fix this, what we have to do is increase traction at the rear compared to the front. We were unable to manage this with suspension settings and eventually had to go a softer tire on the rear. I had tried this before and it stabilized the car too much (and created too much understeer), but it was a step in the right direction. But, we now have a "ballast" control! So we stuck stock suspension back on the cars and, using the ballast to add massive amounts of weight to the rear of the car, we were able to get the cars to begin to respond like RR cars should. Putting the weight back there causes the car to rotate more off-throttle, and also increases the rear-traction on-throttle. It's far from perfect, but at least they responded somewhat like actual RR cars.

So this is a very simple tuning method for certain RR (and MR?) cars:

1) Put 1 grade softer tire on the rear than on the front. For example sports-soft rear and sports-medium front.

2) Now you have to get that rear to swing around more when you lift-throttle. Put the ballast clear at the back of the car and set it to maximum weight. Now test it and gradually reduce the weight until the car handles as you desire.

The nice thing is that you can use this method and retain your stock suspension, which many of us like to do.

Hope that helps a few of us who want to drive the classic monsters online!

On a side note: Even when dealing with other drivetrain configurations this problem still exists, it's just that it varies a lot from car to car and track to track. But overall this has become the killer flaw in GT5 for me. I just can't play the game under these circumstances. I have to get to know the cars I race. I was having a great time running 4-hour Nurburgring endurance races in classic cars, but now when I take any of those same cars online I'm an utter disaster. I'm going to have to completely re-learn the handling characteristics of the cars (at which point I won't be able to drive them worth a darn in a-spec mode). And how can any of us still defend GT5 as a "realistic" simulator when the same car, on the same tires, with the same setup, on the same track, handles completely differently based on whether or not you are racing against other living humans? It's very sad that PD hasn't addressed this issue yet. (Can you imagine if you were to give a race driver a car to practice in, and then on the day of the race completely alter the handling characteristics of that car? Do you think that would be a good thing or a bad thing? PD NEEDS TO FIX THIS!)

yes i have notice that my rx8 its harder to handle in online races

Panjan dude you are so right on the money. I am so disappointed that the "Ruf's" aka Porsches are so difficult to drive online they are not worth bothering if you want to win consistently. Some of the fastest road cars in the world and they absolutely suck in this game online, with the possible exception so far of the Boxster which I've been able to turn into a giant killer at certain PP levels. It feels more like you are driving with a trailer in the back with 4 tons of cement in it, the tail whips around so much.

For Pete's sake PD fix the Porsches!!!!

For the record, a buddy of mine got a 911 back in the day as a birthday present from his Dad (to replace his corvette, lucky bugger!!) and I got a chance to drive it quite often and drive it hard and it was an absolute joy to push and push hard. Incredible control and incredible fun!!

Has is been mentioned, but what are each persons Physics settings in GT mode Standard or Professional. Now, if there's a choice, perhaps Online mode only had Professional by default?

I personally havent experienced this, nor have i placed careful attention to look for this. I typically use MR race cars when playing online.

type_raver

Has is been mentioned, but what are each persons Physics settings in GT mode Standard or Professional. Now, if there's a choice, perhaps Online mode only had Professional by default?

I personally havent experienced this, nor have i placed careful attention to look for this. I typically use MR race cars when playing online.

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All aids off. Standard or Pro? WTF is that? This is GT5, not GT4.

BWX

All aids off. Standard or Pro? WTF is that? This is GT5, not GT4.

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I remember seeing it in GT5P, but dont remember seeing an option in GT5.

All aids off I consider "PRO" or "sim" mode.. with the exception of ABS1, although I don't use it except for dirt sometimes. Skid recovery force changes everything and definitely would be considered "standard" or "arcade" physics.

BWX

All aids off I consider "PRO" or "sim" mode.. with the exception of ABS1, although I don't use it except for dirt sometimes. Skid recovery force changes everything and definitely would be considered "standard" or "arcade" physics.

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I don't understand what you mean?

Both Online and Offline have those options you describe; skid recovery, assisted steering, TCS, ABS etc - however you want to name them, professional or arcade - but these are not PHYSICS settings.

The Physics options are fully selectable online, and include fuel / tyre depletion, mech damage and grip reduction on track edge - yet the Online physics still differ VASTLY from the Offline physics as Panjandrum originally said. This is entirely evidenced by the fundamental fact that you cannot flip a car online - and yet there is still no explanation from the game's producer to try to help us understand the differences...

NFS SHIFT did the same thing online. You gotta work your way around it. I notice a lot of oversteer from any car, it sucks, but maybe ballast at the rear will help. The SuperGT NSX's are severe, try taking the tunnel turn in SSR5 and the back comes around on you unless you lift. You'll see what I mean