Initial Torque: What do you do?

I think you're headed in the right direction kickin but I don't think that parameters of your test will give us the answers we want. There is such a dramatic difference in how the max/min LSD values affect the car I'm not sure it would tell us what we're looking for. The answers lie somewhere in the middle and your test protocol doesn't allow for that. We'd have to go back to the drawing board I think.

Based on Adrenaline's advice of a couple of pages ago the solution I've arrived at is to increase the IT and AT in small increments and see how it works for me. If I sense too much risk on spinning out when powering down I dial it back. When I sense too much power on oversteer for me, I dial it back. For me, control is just as important as the ultimate overall accleration rate and I'd rather sacrifice a small amount of acceleration for a bit of extra control. I win a lot of races online, by simply following and pressuring the leader, when I have the misfortune of being second, and allowing him to make a mistake, which happens quite often, and often happens under hard acceleration coming out of tight corners, in my mind, a direct result of trying to overtighten up the LSD accleration values. I was using 5/5/5 on a lot of cars but I've increased the IT and AT on pretty much every car and it does seem to help a bit.

I still have the braking value at 5 on most cars because most cars I own use tunes I've gathered online and they are pretty stable on corner entry without help from the LSD so I see no need to turn up the value and begin sacrificing turn in ability when stability is already good. I could be wrong on this as well...lol...and if someone has a different idea then please point it out and I'll be happy to experiment. Where I find I sometimes need a value higher than 5 is with mid engine cars that have a tendency to whip out the back end under hard braking, but I've found that tuning the suspension usually helps with that and only when that doesn't work, then do I fiddle with the LSD braking values.

After much fiddling and farting around, I've come to the conclusion that either I'm missing something about LSD or there is something in my driving style that won't allow me to use higher LSD settings, especially in the AT part of things. I try to use tuner recommendations like 15/35/22 and it's all great until you power down coming out of a second gear or third gear corner and if you aren't in a dead straight line, you often fishtail, even at half throttle.

My conclusion for me is that I'm going to stick with starting with 10/10/5 on every car and increase the first two until I start to get the fishtail effect and kind of leave it at there. Most cars I've driven so far I don't get beyond 10/15. And most cars I find don't require any additional help from the LSD for braking or turning in so most of them I've left at 5, with mid and rear engine cars higher according to handling characteristics.

I don't look at wheelspin at all, I'm going by feel and laptimes and I'm wondering if the focus on which wheel is spinning by most tuners is overshadowing control issues and lap times. I know that racing against my ghost, I can run a near perfect lap (within a tenth or two of what I know the limit of the car with me driving to be) with higher LSD settings and then run lower settings against the ghost and beat it every time, because I have better control, more confidence and I can put the power down much earlier in the one or two slower corners that most tracks have. Yeah you get a half second or so of inside wheelspin but based on the ghost, it doesn't affect the overall acceleration rate at all but does allow you to power down earlier with better control.

Lately I've been using settings of 8/20/10. I find at 450PP this works well, with only a few cars needing bumped up to 10/30/15. I think that DS3 users will need higher values as it's harder to control acceleration and braking force with the R3 stick/button pad/L2 and R2.

You might be on to something there with the DS3 vs, the wheel. I like my DFGT but one of the things I would change is the response of the brake and gas pedals. There are no adjustments you can make to the wheel, so with ABS off if a feather lands on the brake pedal the wheels lock. Same with the accelerator, when you are waiting for a race to start, trying to hold the rpms steady at any level it's very difficult. And again, if a feather lands on it you are wide open and the wheels are spinning.

It's a little better under load, as in when driving, but it's still way too sensitive. If my throttle control was linear, meaning pressing it 40% down gave me 40% throttle it would allow me to use higher, perhaps more appropriate LSD settings.

Initial Torque rarely goes over 16 for me, but trying to drive a fully tuned Miura with a stock LSD is quite a challenge.

Adrenaline

He's just copy/pasting what the game says in the help screen.

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ahahaha thats true mate

Well all i can say is this, me and my fellow member mafia boy tested different LSD settings one night, And what we found is that the LSD doesn't really do much, we had the same tunes the same suspension the same cars but our LSD was different, i had my at 10/20/5 and his at 60/60/5 and on even launch we were neck and neck the whole time, right through to the end, didn't affect the cars launch at all.

d24689

Well all i can say is this, me and my fellow member mafia boy tested different LSD settings one night, And what we found is that the LSD doesn't really do much, we had the same tunes the same suspension the same cars but our LSD was different, i had my at 10/20/5 and his at 60/60/5 and on even launch we were neck and neck the whole time, right through to the end, didn't affect the cars launch at all.

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I think most people, if not all of them are talking about for road racing, in which case LSD settings have a massive effect. in a straight line while spinning the tires, LSD shouldn't play a large role, so long as both wheels are getting equal power.

Initial dictates only how quickly the lsd accel and decel settings respond.
I find the other two self explanatory.

CSLACR

I think most people, if not all of them are talking about for road racing, in which case LSD settings have a massive effect. in a straight line while spinning the tires, LSD shouldn't play a large role, so long as both wheels are getting equal power.

Initial dictates only how quickly the lsd accel and decel settings respond.
I find the other two self explanatory.

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Yes true, but no matter what your doing the effect should be the same, whether your racing or dragging your still hitting the gas.

CSLACR

I think most people, if not all of them are talking about for road racing, in which case LSD settings have a massive effect. in a straight line while spinning the tires, LSD shouldn't play a large role, so long as both wheels are getting equal power.

Initial dictates only how quickly the lsd accel and decel settings respond.
I find the other two self explanatory.

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Just looking at your PSN were you in one of my drag rooms one night?.

d24689

Just looking at your PSN were you in one of my drag rooms one night?.

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Nope.

d24689

Yes true, but no matter what your doing the effect should be the same, whether your racing or dragging your still hitting the gas.

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Nope.
all an LSD does is sense individual wheel speed (not torque) and transfer power based on speed readings, while you turn, the outside wheel physically has to turn faster then the inside tire, because it runs a wider line. A tighter set LSD won't allow you to corner properly, without ending up transferring to much power to the inside wheel, and then, as the inside tires spins, it sends power to the outside wheel, which makes a car easy to spin.
A locked differential car can't turn for jack diddly, but it goes straight very well. The catch is, you don't need a locked diff to go straight well, it mostly helps on uneven surfaces or sideways hills, etc.

To be honest, I think all everyone needs is this:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=203009

Possibly one of the best threads since GT5 was released. I don't mean to brown nose or blow sunshine up a certain person's ass, but I use the 2nd explanation of how a LSD works. It was easy to undestand and I could physically feel and see (tyre temperature) the differences in a way that meant I could easily find a 'good' setting on the diff, then come back to fine tune it later - once taking into account suspension settings.

My cars were so much faster and easier to control and it seriously reduced the amount of time I spent 'going round in circles' trying to find something that made sense.

The reason why I'm posting here is that I have found that the LSD settings and custom suspension settings CAN (in some cases) affect each other quite dramatically.

I've been running a 530pp road car race series for over 6 months now, before the race series started we (my friends and I) tested easily over 100+ cars to weed out the dominant cars and leave a group of competitive cars to race with.

Ok - what relevance does this have - we'll this means we've been tuning and testing the same cars now for 6 months.

One thing that has recently come to life is how much the suspenions and LSD setting affects each other. An example, if you dampers, roll bars, springs are not "matched", you might have a 'perfect' setting on your LSD but the car will feel terrible.

Leave the LSD alone, adjust your springs, dampers and roll bars so they are working together and hey presto, all of a sudden your car is doing things you never thought possible.

OK - why I am saying this, because:

People don't seem to be referring to the relationship and affect of each of these things on each other. When people are saying "I set my LSD to blah blah blah" - ok fine, but what's the power of your car, what's your suspenions setup, tyres or you offline or online. Also, what about tyre wear and temperature???

All of these things have an impact.

Getting the springs, dampers and roll bars to hit the sweet spot can give so much grip to the driven wheels, adjusting the ride height can also do the same.

Here's an example - imagine same car, exactly the same level of tuning (parts, power, weight, tyres etc etc) but without a custom diff YET:

Guy 1 - he has a good suspension setup, everything is linked and working well together and he has his ride height set for stability and grip.

Guy 2 - hasn't, the suspension is guestimated and is causing the car to have no grip, oversteering and spinning up the wheels.

You now buy a custom a diff and try tuning it, starting with scenario 1, which should be fairly easy and quick.

Take those settings and give them to guy 2 - they'll be useless.

Likewise, start with guy 2, he'll need completely different settings because his car is doing completely different things. Once you have a diff setting that improves guy 2 - apply that to guy 1 and it'll probably make his car worse.

Yet, both have got exactly the same car in exactly the same spec, driving in exactly the same scenario (online lobby free run) - but will be arguing at each other 'til the cows come home as each other's diff settings are only useful for themselves (so each think they are right), but uselss for the other guy (so they think he is wrong).

Add to this, the difference between pad and wheels users, THEN add to this the difference between steering senistivity being of minimum for some, and maximum for others......

And people are wondering why this arguement about diffs has been going on for the last 8 months.....

Everyone needs to understand there is an element of uniqueness to diff settings for each person, peron's driving style and wheel / pad sensitivity, but some things are basically fundamental i.e.

Acceleration sensitivty - outside wheel spins = decrease, inside wheel = increase
Braking sensitivty - too much lift off oversteer = increase, lift off understeer = decrease.

Recently, something very strange has happened, I have found that some cars suffering from excessive wheelspin seem to have a sweet spot between 15-25 for the initial - which has left me perplexed.

Before, lowing the default setting of 10 to somewhere around 6-8 helped cars with excessive wheelspin. My friends have also experienced this and we've all been scratching our heads.

We are all 110% sure that polyphony changed something in the last update re 'setups'. Too many people have been complaing of cars that had grip and were superbly balanced a few months ago are now wobbling like cray and feel nothing like what they used to.

Others have complained of their wheel feedback settings feeling wrong after the last update, so much so they though their wheels had gone back to default settings, but it hadn't.

Alot of this thread was written before the last update, but absolutely 100% guranteed something has changed since then. Remember this when looking through this thread, some of this info probably was completely correct and relevant at the time of writing, but now - not so sure.

Not because of the person who wrote it, more to do with the fact that Polyphony are a bunch of sly ******s who haven't got the guts to admit their mistakes and are secretly changing things via update(s) and not telling anyone.

Ok - I know - crazy guy talking conspiracy theories - blah blah blah.. But like I say, we've been running the same cars (530pp - sports soft tyres) for the last 6 months now, we run the same tracks with the same race distance and regulations in the lobby, we know what certain cars can do in terms of handling and laps times - we haven't changed anything in terms of setup, but the times and feel of some cars are very different.

We have some pretty fast guys who have been in the series, quite a few official drivers from other websites, a guy who has topped a seasonal time trial (without glitching) and a couple of UK GT academy finalists - so we can put in fast-ish consistent laps and have not too bad a source of info and feedback.

All these guys agree - something is amiss (after last update) and also agree settings are inheritently linked both in terms of one part of the suspension to the other and what affect the diff and suspension has on each other, combined with differences in equiptment and driving style. This can result in 2 very different 'setups' achieving the same thing, or vica versa - the same setup being great for one but awful for another.

You need to take this into account when posting about what does what - or we're gonna be going round in circles until GT6 comes out.

I've been pretty successful setting most of my differentials with initials of 6-8, usually 8, setting up Accel to find the happy medium between inside and outside wheelspin and then the Decel setting close to the Accel setting in most cases for stability during cornering and the transition from braking/glide to acceleration. I find that on most cars the Accel is between 15 and 25. If it's much less than that, then I know the rear is likely too loose for consistent control and needs to be tightened up.

How's that for simple?...lol.

Johnnypenso

I've been pretty successful setting most of my differentials with initials of 6-8, usually 8, setting up Accel to find the happy medium between inside and outside wheelspin and then the Decel setting close to the Accel setting in most cases for stability during cornering and the transition from braking/glide to acceleration. I find that on most cars the Accel is between 15 and 25. If it's much less than that, then I know the rear is likely too loose for consistent control and needs to be tightened up.

How's that for simple?...lol.

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Great - if you think we're telepathic and know what type (hot hatches or Le Mans racers??) of cars your driving at what level of tuning, what your suspension setup is, what equiptment (wheel or pad) at what setting your using, what tyres are on your cars, what your driving style is like and whether you're online or offline. Then we can apply this to cars we use in the same situation and our problems are solved. Other than that it's about as helpful as a condom with a hole in both ends.

I'll get my crystal ball out, just in case, thanks...

👍

Highlandor

Great - if you think we're telepathic and know what type (hot hatches or Le Mans racers??) of cars your driving at what level of tuning, what your suspension setup is, what equiptment (wheel or pad) at what setting your using, what tyres are on your cars, what your driving style is like and whether you're online or offline. Then we can apply this to cars we use in the same situation and our problems are solved. Other than that it's about as helpful as a condom with a hole in both ends.

I'll get my crystal ball out, just in case, thanks...

👍

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Put your crystal ball away and try this food for thought.

You should base your lsd settings on your suspension setup, not in tandem. By tuning the suspension properly first, you get the best handling from the car out of the suspension, then match your lsd up to the good suspension.

This is true with any car, of any type, you don't want the suspension catering an lsd in any way, you do want your lsd catering your suspension, and it's also easier to do then trying to adjust multiple things simultaneously.

Adjusting multiple things at once can lead to bad changes, and then you don't know what went wrong, so save the headache, sort the suspension, brakes, aero,(if applicable) and gearing first, then adjust the lsd to macth the rest.

I think his point was that a cars, weight, power, and tire compound will change everything. I race 450pp sport soft cars and 7/15/10 is usually fine...it works well on cs tires too...but with racing tires, i find higher values can help rotate the car a little better. And obviously when i run high power cars i start with totally different settings.

chuyler1

I think his point was that a cars, weight, power, and tire compound will change everything. I race 450pp sport soft cars and 7/15/10 is usually fine...it works well on cs tires too...but with racing tires, i find higher values can help rotate the car a little better. And obviously when i run high power cars i start with totally different settings.

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And I find people run faster and more consistent on lower lsd settings, with practice.
Higher settings work great when you're waiting to get on the throttle longer, but it's something that will work better at different settings for different drivers and driving styles.
The higher you set it, the harder it is to turn, and the quicker it will snap into over-steer on exits. Doesn't matter what PP your car is, the difference is lower PP cars won't have enough power to spin even the inside wheel, so everything improved by the loose LSD is shown in great detail with low PP cars.

Highlandor

Great - if you think we're telepathic and know what type (hot hatches or Le Mans racers??) of cars your driving at what level of tuning, what your suspension setup is, what equiptment (wheel or pad) at what setting your using, what tyres are on your cars, what your driving style is like and whether you're online or offline. Then we can apply this to cars we use in the same situation and our problems are solved. Other than that it's about as helpful as a condom with a hole in both ends.

I'll get my crystal ball out, just in case, thanks...

👍

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If you want more detail all you have to do is ask...politely. Asking questions usually leads to answers. Riding a high horse surrounds you with manure eventually.

CSLACR

the difference is lower PP cars won't have enough power to spin even the inside wheel

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Absolutely! With my 450pp SS cars, I sometimes don't even install it. If I can't break loose the inside tire, the LSD isn't going to do anything but cause understeer. Sometimes the tire gauge doesn't show the wheelspin though, and you have to rely on the audible engine sounds.

CSLACR

And I find people run faster and more consistent on lower lsd settings, with practice.
Higher settings work great when you're waiting to get on the throttle longer, but it's something that will work better at different settings for different drivers and driving styles.
The higher you set it, the harder it is to turn, and the quicker it will snap into over-steer on exits. Doesn't matter what PP your car is, the difference is lower PP cars won't have enough power to spin even the inside wheel, so everything improved by the loose LSD is shown in great detail with low PP cars.

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I agree 100% with this and the fact that the suspension have to be tuned fist with the lower LSD settings as possible ,Unstability under braking and accel can be corrected after this with the LSD and only in this order. If not you'll not able to feel the car and set a good suspension.
The explanation about LSD are always "like a fog" for me ,i don't know , it's not clear sometimes.
This is how i understand it and i've tried to explain clearly. (At least i understand me like this) hahaha


L.S.D. SETTINGS

Initial torque settings : this is the master setting of the differential

• Higher the value is, less it will allowthe difference of speed between the internal and external wheels.
Good point : The oversteer will be reduced and the torque will be oriented and transmitted to the “good wheel” .
Bad point : The car will have some difficulties to enter in a corner, more understeer.

• Lower the value is, more it will allow the difference of speed between the internal and external wheels.
Good point : The car will be easy to turn and more responsive for example in a succession of curves
Bad point : Beware with retake acceleration and strong braking .The car will be more sensible and more dificult to control !



Acceleration setting : This is a secondary setting who define the differential setting during acceleration only.

• Higher this value is ,less it will allow difference of speed between the wheels during acceleration,avoiding eventuals spinnings. But it will increase understeer.

• Lower this value is, more the car will be able to turn, but an generate oversteer and loose the rear if accelerating to much.



Deceleration settings : This setting will define how the differential will work when braking.

• Higher is the value, more the car will be steady on his line when you brake. But you’ll have more difficulties to enter the curve and sometime you ‘ll have to fight with the car to reach the apex.

• Lower is this value ,more the car will be unstable from the rear when braking and will have a tendency to spin. But also it’ll be more easy to enter I the curves and turn.

Enjoy.

praiano63 - I added your LSD thoery to the LSD Summary Guide thread. See link in my signature below.

Motor City Hami

praiano63 - I added your LSD thoery to the LSD Summary Guide thread. See link in my signature below.

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Cooooll ,thanks my friend, I HAVE A THEORY ??? good new !!!! hahaha Not bad for a beach boy ..!!! 👍👍

I've been trying a few differential settings when I have optimized my suspension settings as best as I can.

I usually run the following generic rear wheel drive setup for a car with something like 55/45 weight distribution


F/R
Height: -25/-10
Spring: 14.5/14.0
Compression: 9/9
Extension: 9/9
Anti Roll Bar: 6/3
Camber: 2/1.8
Toe: -.25/-.10

Brake: 5/3

And my LSD setting is usually:

Initial: 9
Accel: 18
Decel: 18

Matching accel and decel seems to provide the most control without wheelspin when you are transitioning from gas to brake to gas in the corner. If the car understeers with this setup I change my LSD to

Initial: 8
Accel: 16
Decel: 16

If it still understeers, I raise the rear ride height and decrease the rear Anti Roll Bar.

Here is my theory:

My theory is that the Accel Decel is the bias of the differential to behave in the corner. More accel bias will cause the differential lock to occur when gassing in the corner and more decel bias will cause the differential lock to occur when braking in the corner.
The Initial setting is what determines the strength of the lock.

I like to run matched accel-decel to make wheel spin predictable and minimal in the corner and I run a low initial setting, compensating for understeer or oversteer with my suspension settings instead.

i cant seem to get the youtube video to post on here so ill just leave the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc&feature=channel_video_title

^ Nobu, thanks for the vid, that's a really cool illustration of how open diffs work

I recently busted a myth I was clinging to about LSD initial, just thought I'd share my thoughts. In the past, I have run low Initial torque in the fear that higher yaw resistance (caused by a more locked diff) increased understeer.

But I have recently seen this is often not true, in fact sometimes the "yaw inertia" of higher LSD initial is helpful in stopping a car "biting off more than it can chew". By this, I mean having heaps of turn-in overwhelms the chassis and leads to lurching understeer soon after.

So don't be afraid to try high Initial settings, and remember that yaw inertia is a separate issue to understeer.

Your acceleration setting should be set at a level that allows a little inside wheel spin. The key is balance. Your initial torque setting determines how quickly the tires lock to your acceleration setting. The higher the number the sooner the diff kicks in, on the rev range. So it depends where in the power band you want the diff to kick in, or the powerband of the car in question. Say a car has good traction as you come out of a corner, but then begins to spin out as the torque comes in, you would use a higher initial to make the transition smoother. Or say your car has a peaky powerband, a high initial torque may increase understeer.

The way I see IT, and I could be wrong: I ask my self the question:

Do you want the LSD Accel and Decel Differential to Govern your car? set it low numerical value
Do you want you the driver to dictate the car's behavior on your own throttle control and other driving inputs? set it high numerical value

at least that's how I wish it were true, yet sometimes, high and low extremes don't seem to make a difference to me either. perhaps high-speed RS tire racing is harder to determine cause and effects.

I've read so many theories on it, and it is still a learning process to me, but the more I learn about the effects on LSD, the more I realise these are just variables to alter the car's behavior in this particular Videogame, and should not necessarily be compared to the real thing.

The only real world application I know of a Limited Slip Differential is this: in our Canadian Winters, when a car is trying to exit a cold, icy , snowed-in trapped parking spot from his house. Do you ever see the car in place just smoking one of its tires in place? (the car has no LSD I imagine)

Then, there are other (luxury) cars, in the same spot, that leave, with the tire spinning less quickly, and the opposite tire on axle also assists to help it leave the spot.

This I believe is the true application of "limiting your rotational differences" that I know of so far. now if his IT was set to low, then the LSD should kick in sooner than later, and help him out of the snowy spot. If his IT was set to high, I'd imagine he'd have to spin that tire LOTS before the other tire kicked in.

Taking it one step further, talking about Decel settings, if set to highsensitivity (high number) if after spinning and smoking one of his tires on the icy surface, he suddenly goes full OFF throttle, then I'd imagine the car would suddenly grip from both wheels (dif lock) and the car would nudge forward on the decel settings.

as far as racing in a track, well, I'm more concerned about entry speed, stability, angle of apex, and throttle control, over anything else, and hope the car follows through.

and if I have everything written backwards, then kill me now.

last sentence, I see so many tuners using IT LSD between 5 and 10 on average. What about the 50 digits above? do you really wish to let the LSD govern your car that much? again, i could be wrong.

Hi everybody

It's unfortunate that we as a community should even need "theories" about the true nature of these three settings: 'initial torque', 'acceleration sensitivity', and 'braking sensitivity'. But it's not because we're all dumb-- it's because the explanation in the game's settings guide makes absolutely no sense. I say this after reading through it carefully more timees than I'd like to admit. It's almost as if the developers have purposely shrouded it in mystery.

There are many different kinds of differentials in the real world. It sure would be nice if they would tell us what kind we have in the GT5 world!

I usually start my IT at 30 and see how the car behaves from there.

Lately I been using IT 42 , ACC 9 , DEC 8 on many online street cars, and I'm happy as a clam.