Cappuccino Cup 3: Pre-season Discussion and Registration

Here are some of the topics to be discussed for the 3rd season:


1. Race Hard Tires: I know this one will be a hot topic, but hopefully everyone will understand my reasoning. We've had a lot of people show up for just 1 or 2 races and then they send me a message saying the car is harder to get a handle on then they expected and thus are withdrawing. I think a good portion of this was due to the Sports Soft tires, it made tuning much more critical (for most) and left little room for error in heated situations. I understand that this switch will not necessarily bring the back of the pack closer to the front-runners, but I think it will lessen the gap between the back half of the field and help to reduce incidents. Drivers will have a little more control with the extra grip and thus will be better able to make small corrections required when driving in a pack. I really want this to be a "hop in and go" series that doesn't require a ton of effort from the members and I think switching to the Race Hard compound will make it a little easier for people to just hop into their Capp's and go have a fun race without having to worry so much about having a great tune or large amounts track knowledge/experience.


2. Format change: I think our current format has worked well (group qualifying before the race and 1 medium length race immediately following qualifying) and I'm not opposed to sticking with that format. But there are a couple other options which may be more entertaining.
A. We could do 2 back-to-back races every night with normal qualifying for the first race and reverse grid based on 1st race results for the 2nd race. We could do 2 equal length races (approx 15 minutes) that each pay the same points with a bonus point for pole position and a bonus point for winning both races. All points for the night would be added together to get your total points for that event.
B. We would also do a shorter first race (10 minutes) followed by a longer second race (20 minutes). This would allow the fast guys a little more time to fight their way through the field and hopefully be able to exercise more patience in getting to the front. The points would have to be weighted so that the longer race pays more than the shorter race, but the rest would be the same (bonus point for pole and bonus point for double-win).
C. Another option is to have a longer 1st race (approx 20-25 minutes) followed by a short 5-10 lap "sprint" race. The longer race would use the current points structure we use now and the sprint race would use a simplified points structure such as 8 pts for 1st, 7 pts for 2nd, etc. and only reward points to the top 8.
The 2 race format provides a couple new things to the series. First, everyone would get a chance to run at the front as well as fight their way through the pack (all in 1 night!) which should help eliminate the situation where you find yourself alone on the track for the last 20 minutes of the race which gets pretty boring. I also think the change in points structure would make the Championship quite exciting and help to reduce the possibility of "ties" between drivers. Also, if you have a bad first race you get a chance to make up for it in the second race!


These are the main things I've been thinking about and I want to get some feedback on these ideas so feel free to let me know if they're great or if you absolutely hate them. I always try to find a happy medium that pleases the majority. Also feel free to suggest or discuss any other ideas that you might have. Are there any things that need to be changed? Are there any things that need to be tweaked? Are there any things that need to be retained? I'm open to entertaining any and all ideas and I will give thorough feedback as to why I'm for or against any suggestions so don't be afraid to speak up! I look forward to hearing your thoughts, opinions and ideas!




When registering for the Cappuccino Cup please use the following format and I will update the list accordingly.






Each driver must declare 1 night as their "Primary Points Night" which will be the night they are most likely to compete for the points championship. If the room is full, preventing you from getting in and this night is your declared "primary race", send me and/or the stewards a PM on GTP/PSN and we will ask a non-primary driver to make room for you.



(Hosts/Stewards highlighted in red)

#26 OwensRacing (OwensRacing): Green ^STEWARD/HOST^
#88 / Phil Bell (Whincup_88): Pink *Tuesday*
#13 torzilla (torzilla): Opalescent Gunmetal/ Rouge Lucifer *Tuesday*
#43 LancerEvo7 (GTP_LancerEvo7): Cyberia Blue / Saffron Yellow
#22 sethfraz22 (sethfraz22): black/bright green *Tuesday*
#25 Yuritardid (Johnnypenso): TBD *Tuesday*
#32 GrayFox32 (GrayFox32): Blue Alpine/Lime Green Metallic
#7 Naptown25rs (NCemtB): Pink/Black Body, Green Wheels
#57 Blind829 (Blind829): Black Body / Red Wheels *Tuesday*
#11 Wardez (Wardez): Yellow/Black
#5 zer05ive (zer05ive): White / Red *Tuesday*
#37 Cipher22 (Cipher37): White / White *Saturday*
#44 zero_speed (GTP_Z3RO_):Flat black/black *Saturday*
#42 RDAardvark (RDAardvark): Banana Yellow/Yellow *Saturday*
#61 Luxy (GTP_Luxy): White/Black Black *Tuesday*
#47 dmanaenk (dsgerbc): Cobalt Blue Metallic/Sunshine Yellow *Tuesday*
#13 Schadenfreude13 (Schadenfreude13): Gooner Red/Gooner White *Friday*
#38 CAMikaze (GTP_CAMikaze): Applejack i.e. Yellow/Red *Tuesday*
#9 brenner (brenmu68): Titanium Silver / Lime Green Metallic *Saturday*





- Brandon

I like option A for the race format, and agree on the tires. I'll probably catch lots of crap for this, but I wouldn't object if we even used Racing Softs.

LancerEvo7

I'll probably catch lots of crap for this, but I wouldn't object if we even used Racing Softs.

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Let's not open that can of worms! I think the Race Hard's provide a nice balance between grip and skill, you can still easily lose the back-end if you disrespect the Capp, but on the Race Softs it's virtually glued to the track. I still want the skilled drivers to rise to the top but I also want the drivers towards the back to have a better opportunity to fight for positions. 👍

#88 / Phil Bell (Whincup_88) / Pink
Tuesday Late Race (8:30pm EDT): Yes
Friday: No
Tuesday Early(6pm EDT) Race/Saturday: Yes
Primary Points Race:Tuesday

Any chance the races could be a tad later?My time zone is GMT+8 so it's very early for me.

phil bell

#88 / Phil Bell (Whincup_88) / Pink
Tuesday Late Race (8:30pm EDT): Yes
Friday: No
Tuesday Early(6pm EDT) Race/Saturday: Yes
Primary Points Race:Tuesday

Any chance the races could be a tad later?My time zone is GMT+8 so it's very early for me.

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Sorry, those are really the only times that I can fit into my schedule. Happy to have you onboard though, hope you can make some of the races!

I don't really see how tuning will be different at all with Race hards. People are still going to complain. And try driving on R3s, there's still wheel spin, it's the nature of the peaky-weird powerband, not the level of grip or tune so much. I'm ok with Racing hards but anything more and the car's feeling just goes away and it begins to drive like Need For Speed.

The grip multiplier only goes up by .5 g's, fighting for positions will be the same as well.

When we talk tires we're not talking about competitiveness. If someone says, " oh if this race used better tires I'd be really up there!" It's just not true in application. They'll still be at the same place competitively.

If someone does magically get better on better tires than it's a placebo effect. It's them telling themselves it's ok to be good and go fast when before they didn't feel confident enough. So take the pill if you'd like but I'm still sticking to my opinion in that Sport softs are about perfect for the Cappuccinos. So, it's really just about preference of feel with the cars.

I have no problems making the "late" race but the early one is abit of a gamble...

I've no problem with moving to Racing Hard tyres but the Tuesday "early" slot would actually be 11pm UK time (We're on British Summer Time at the moment, which is GMT+1). That's a bit late in the day on a school/work night. And for those in Germany or further east, it would be the wee small hours. So it would mean all three races suit the USA and no-one else.

The other problem with Tuesday nights is that PD would do their updates on a Tuesday - The last time they did this I couldn't get online when I got home from work and gave up trying at 10:30 pm. I've also had trouble on tuesdays and later discovered this was down to the OCD being updated.

Saying that, I'd have no problem hosting the Euro race if we could agree on a time slot to have it. It might be best to create a doodle to poll all the euro/non-USA drivers.

Regarding race format, I personally prefer a short 10-15 lap sprint race and then a longer feature race, perhaps with a mandatory pitstop?

The 6pm Eastern race would fit absolutely perfectly for me and that would become my preferred slot.

Wardez

I don't really see how tuning will be different at all with Race hards. People are still going to complain. And try driving on R3s, there's still wheel spin, it's the nature of the peaky-weird powerband, not the level of grip or tune so much. I'm ok with Racing hards but anything more and the car's feeling just goes away and it begins to drive like Need For Speed.

The grip multiplier only goes up by .5 g's, fighting for positions will be the same as well.

When we talk tires we're not talking about competitiveness. If someone says, " oh if this race used better tires I'd be really up there!" It's just not true in application. They'll still be at the same place competitively.

If someone does magically get better on better tires than it's a placebo effect. It's them telling themselves it's ok to be good and go fast when before they didn't feel confident enough. So take the pill if you'd like but I'm still sticking to my opinion in that Sport softs are about perfect for the Cappuccinos. So, it's really just about preference of feel with the cars.

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I basically agree with all of that, but I'm not trying to really effect the tuning or competitiveness but rather improve the cleanliness. On Sports Softs I had to be very precise and damn near perfect on entry/exit to keep the thing in line but on the few occasions I've driven on Race Hard's I found it to be a little more forgiving and I could fudge my entry/exit a tad without fear of losing the back end or plowing into somebody. With good tuning I could get the sport softs to be slightly more forgiving but it was still always on the verge of spinning out. And yes, that meant I had low confidence in the car.

I remember at the last race of the first season (Indy Road Course) I accidentally went out for practice on Race Hard's and I was about 2-3 seconds faster per lap and felt so much more comfortable with the car. I could really lean into the turns how I wanted to and was better able to avoid other cars in the turns because of it. That's basically what I'm trying to achieve, so when somebody dive-bomb's a driver on the inside, the victim has a little bit more ability/confidence to avoid them and thus won't get discouraged and leave the series. 👍

I realize that this switch will not bring the front of the pack closer to the back of the pack and that's not my intention. I mainly just want to keep people from getting discouraged after 1 race and also to hopefully reduce the number of incidents on track. It is a little easier to go 2-wide through a tight turn on the Race Hard's. And who knows, I could be wrong, but that's why I want to do some test races on the Race Hard's during our off-season so we can get some hard data and come to an agreement. 👍

Im in on another round

car # 13
GTP/PSN torzilla/torzilla
car/ wheel color: Opalescent Gunmetal/ Rouge Lucifer

Tuesday: yes
friday & saturday: sometimes
primary points night: tuesday

I have no problem with race hards. I do like the idea of 2 shorter races rather than one long race, I've done other series' where this has worked well. I think 2 races will work welll and give people at the back of a pack a better racing experience. I also would like to see more jumps on any custom tracks we race on. These cars are very light and I am convinced thaet my car can jump up and touch the sun.

Summer is almost over and the early time slot on Tuesday also fits perfect for me. I'll submit an official entry in the coming days. The tires do not matter to me, do what you feel is best for the league. I also like option A.

Just a reminder to everyone, I will have a lounge open tonight so we can do some testing. I'd like to try out the 2 race format as well as the Race Hard tires, I had mentioned going to Eiger Short Track but I might change that since I doubt Eiger will ever be capable of hosting a decent race. Perhaps Madrid Mini?

My lounge will open around 7pm EDT and we'll go from there. I'll post details here when it's open. If any new drivers want to check us out, send me an invite on PSN: BrandonW77

Anybody looking to get a little caffeine buzz tonight or have I scared everyone away with the talk of Racing tires?

I'll be there.

i should be able to make it

Brandon: did you see my post above? The 'early' Tuesday very late for us Europeans.

#43 LancerEvo7 (GTP_LancerEvo7): Cyberia Blue / Saffron Yellow

Tuesday 1: Yes
Tuesday 2: Maybe
Friday: Most Likely

RDAardvark

Brandon: did you see my post above? The 'early' Tuesday very late for us Europeans.

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Yes, I didn't realize you guys were GMT+1 right now so that is a little bit later than I thought. Don't worry, the early Tuesday race is not set in stone, but I wanted to get some feedback. 3 nights a week sometimes gets to be a bit taxing on my schedule, but I love running in all 3 races so I'm not sure what to do. I guess if I had you and Owens as secondary hosts then it would take a bit of the pressure off my schedule. I'll PM you two about finding a plan to keep the Saturday race on Saturday's. 👍

I doubt RH tires will do anything to address stuff you want them to address. They felt better since you weren't pushing as much as these tires allow. Once you get to your limit on RH, any dive-bombs will result in the same carnage, just at higher cornering speeds.
And FWIW, I think these cappys are a ton easier to catch once the back end starts coming out then many other cars.

Having said that - I'm fine with running RH, even though I'd prefer SS.

And a suggestion: I think enabling TC might help new drivers spin less.

P.S. probably not coming today.

#22 sethfraz22 sethfraz22 black/bright green
tuesday late race/ yes points
fridays/ sometimes
early tuesday/ yes saturdays/ sometimes

You might be right, I don't have a ton of experience on the race tires. I have a very hard time recovering the back end of the Cappy but running at Eiger I've had 3 big slides on the race hard's that I easily corrected out of. Might not be pushing all the way though, like you said.

Also, I have no problem with TC because it doesn't really give a speed advantage. I used to leave it on and people would complain for some reason. I'll allow it this season if it doesn't create too big of an angry mob.

Name: Yuritardid (Johnnypenso)
#25
Car and Wheel Colour TBD (have it picked can't remember the name)

Tuesday Late Race (8:30pm EDT): yes
Friday: sometimes
Tuesday Early(6pm EDT) Race/Saturday: sometimes
Primary Points Race: Tuesday late

As far as the tires go, I agree it won't likely make much, if any, difference in the standings and results by going to RH's. But I also believe it's a very difficult car to tune on SS tires and much more difficult to drive and because of that, it keeps a lot of the more casual drivers away from the series on a regular basis. I've run a bit on the RH's and it is a different beast. You can still lose it, over cook entry and exit, still lose the back end under hard accel in a tight corner, but it's much, much more manageable overall compared to SS tires. Posting of a decent basic tune for the beginners to have a starting point would go a long way towards keeping up participation. Personally, I'd much rather have to fight through a grid of 14-16 than 8-10. So my vote is for the Racing Hards.

As for format, I like the idea of trying out two equal sprints, with the second being reverse grid. I think it would really mix things up and give someone making a mistake in the first race, an opportunity to make up for lost ground right away in the second race. It's really disheartening to get bumped in the first couple of laps and have to run around alone towards the back of the pack by yourself for 25 minutes...not that that's ever happened to me...lol.

You wouldn't have to do it every race either, you could do it half the time or 4 out of 6 etc. We could throw in a one hour Enduro at a larger track like Monza or Road Course Indy, perhaps with a mandatory pit stop as well. I think mixing it up and thereby mixing up race strategies would add some interest and fun to the series.

Something else we could add too is teams, with team colours and team point standings. It would add another dimension to the points standings as in F1's Constructor's Championship.

There's the perfect compromise ; SS tires with TC allowed on?

Let me join this LITTLE shin-dig!

#32 GrayFox32 (GrayFox32): Blue Alpine/Lime Green Metallic
Tuesday Late Race (8:30pm EDT): Yes
Friday (10:00pm EDT): Yes
Tuesday Early(6pm EDT): Yes

Awesome Gray 👍

I was about to text you about this too... read my tech. mind.

StigsHero

Yes, I didn't realize you guys were GMT+1 right now so that is a little bit later than I thought. Don't worry, the early Tuesday race is not set in stone, but I wanted to get some feedback. 3 nights a week sometimes gets to be a bit taxing on my schedule, but I love running in all 3 races so I'm not sure what to do. I guess if I had you and Owens as secondary hosts then it would take a bit of the pressure off my schedule. I'll PM you two about finding a plan to keep the Saturday race on Saturday's. 👍

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You hit the nail on the head when you say 'I love running in all 3 races': All three are accessible to drivers in the US, but only Saturday is accessible to Europeans. The danger of moving the Saturday race to another night, possibly a weeknight, is that you then run the danger of excluding everyone in the US. I don't think there are enough Europeans to make up a decent grid, although changing the time, and the tyres used, may bring a few more in.

With western Europe being 5 hours in front of you guys on EDT, central Europe is another hour ahead and Moscow would be a total of +8 hours ahead. You're never going to find a time slot that suits everyone and you don't want to alienate the USA drivers. Just going from last Saturday's race, out of the 7 drivers who finished the race, we had two in the UK, four in the USA and one Canadian. The week before, we had three from the UK, three from the USA and one Canadian. So without those from North America, we wouldn't have a valid race of 5 or more drivers.

Would it be worth PMing all those who registered in season 1 and 2 and see what interest there would be? You may just find that you try too hard to accommodate Europe when there simply isn't the interest level to warrant it.

You should just keep the Saturday race, call it Euro/Aussie compatible and appoint someone else to run it with it's own points table.