Aliens

  • Thread starter Exorcet
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Is there extraterrestrial life?

  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (non carbon based)

    Votes: 19 2.5%
  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (carbon based)

    Votes: 25 3.3%
  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (carbon and non carbon based)

    Votes: 82 10.8%
  • Yes, and they are humanoid creatures

    Votes: 39 5.1%
  • Yes, and they are those associated with abductions

    Votes: 19 2.5%
  • Yes, but I don't know what they'd be like

    Votes: 379 49.8%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 151 19.8%
  • No, they only exist in movies

    Votes: 47 6.2%

  • Total voters
    761
Where I would say that the above is statistically the most sensible approach, I was amazed with the next figure:

*marsupial image*

These are very similar animals that have completely different ways of reproducing (placenta or not placenta based).

It seems that scientist do expect a relation between the both and some kind of special evolution due to geographical determined conditions.

I would say that going from evolution theory, different species will develop (supporting what I quoted above) and then will evolve, where the most adapted will become successful and prosper and the least adapted will parish.
So if the conditions are similar, the winning strategy will be similar and given sufficient time the "functional" layout that is most adapted will be similar. So on a similar planet we will find similar species, even if they were never in contact with each other.
Now coming back to the chance of similar conditions and similar times of evolution, etc... there will always be quite some differences, but there could be so many... who knows?

Marsupial reproduction really isn't all that different from other mammals. It does indicate that the marsupial family split away from the rest of the mammals a long time ago.

As for the "winning strategy" thing, there is no single winning strategy; look at flight for instance. Birds and bats coexist; neither displaced the other. I believe that insects also developed flight along a few different paths.

I would be shocked and amazed if another world has creatures that are recognizably birds or mammals. I would, however, fully expect to find several species capable of flight.
 
Dotini
Heisenberg said, "...what we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning". Godel's incompleteness theorem showed that nothing is certain concerning the universe. The rational mind may never know the ultimate truth.

So it may turn out there is cosmic "intelligent interaction", to quote TankAss. It may be that Huvaloo, VALIS, God, the Sandman or Santa Claus is at this very moment monitoring our thoughts and emotions - and even occasionally intervening in our world!

It's only a harmless idea,
Uncle Steve

As another harmless idea, I really think that the Simulation Argument is a particularly rich vein for, well, argument, but I didn't get any bites.

Anyways, the big problem I see with sentient interaction, apart from needing to be able to actually detect and comprehend it, is simply energy budget. Ya canna change the speed of light, Cap'n. Interacting with a simulation caretaker might in fact be more likely than ever being able to interact with another sentient being in our own expanding universe - because even if we/they discover a way to change or exceedc, as a previous poster just mentioned, how could the likely staggering energy to do so possibly be justified?

I guess once we/they no longer care so much about lifespan (take me now, Kurzweil/Vinge!), sub or near-c exploration might be more popular - but that presupposes an awful lot, and interstellar travel is an awful risk; remote (semi-?)autonomous probes seem more likely. But where do you send them? In the direction of something interesting or valuable already detected? How do we do that, again?
 
I guess once we/they no longer care so much about lifespan (take me now, Kurzweil/Vinge!), sub or near-c exploration might be more popular - but that presupposes an awful lot, and interstellar travel is an awful risk; remote (semi-?)autonomous probes seem more likely. But where do you send them? In the direction of something interesting or valuable already detected? How do we do that, again?

Space travel would be a risk for us, but probably less so for a more advanced civilization. It might even be the norm. We're actually heading in that direction, though it's not clear where we will end up or when we'll get there.

An advanced enough species may have researchers among them who are willing to travel the galaxy in suspended animation, or perhaps large portions of the population of the species would be so excited by the prospect of alien lift, or simply colonization of space that they regularly leave their planet and fly across space in cities that house multiple generations of beings.

Advanced species might also be able to not only automate the probes, by the whole probe program. If they can create an advanced AI for the probe that will allow it to manufacture more probes from raw material scattered about the universe, the original makers of the probes wouldn't have to do much themselves. The probe would leave their planet in search of another planet full of raw materials. Once reaching the material planet, it would replicate and then dispatch a massive wave of probes to a bunch of preprogrammed targets. These second generation probes would do the same, and so on. The AI on each probe might be able to engineer a better design for each new generation, or it might remain in contact with the home planet over short distances.

Either of these methods could cover a lot of ground quickly, even if "quickly" means millions of years in the scale of the universe.
 
As another harmless idea, I really think that the Simulation Argument is a particularly rich vein for, well, argument, but I didn't get any bites.
I'm willing to consider that we live in an alien created simulacrum - if we provide that the program is rendered corrupt and defective by decay, bugs and viruses. This would be so because the putative behavior of alien entities - UFOs - is always absurd or foolish, showing little real intelligence beyond the feral and tricksterish.

Anyways, the big problem I see with sentient interaction, apart from needing to be able to actually detect and comprehend it, is simply energy budget. Ya canna change the speed of light, Cap'n.
How fast is the speed of thought? With thought alone I might easily transfer my consciousness from one end of the universe to another in a nanosecond. There are too many cases on record where UFOs have been able to read the intentions of percipients at a distance and react preemptively. Col. John Alexander calls this PSP, for Precognitive Sentient Phenomena. Consider the 1976 Tehran incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident
During the incident, two F-4 Phantom II jet interceptors supposedly lost instrumentation and communications as they approached, only to have them restored upon withdrawal; one of the aircraft also supposedly suffered temporary weapons systems failure, while preparing to open fire.

The aliens, whoever or whatever they are - presumably immortal, evolved inorganic electromagnetic plasma energies - are already here, and simultaneously everywhere else in the universe, too.

Interacting with a simulation caretaker might in fact be more likely than ever being able to interact with another sentient being in our own expanding universe - because even if we/they discover a way to change or exceedc, as a previous poster just mentioned, how could the likely staggering energy to do so possibly be justified?

We might do better by ignoring these "caretakers" than we do by deliberately interacting with them. It can be debated if such dissimilar lifeforms have anything positive to offer each other.

I guess once we/they no longer care so much about lifespan (take me now, Kurzweil/Vinge!), sub or near-c exploration might be more popular - but that presupposes an awful lot, and interstellar travel is an awful risk; remote (semi-?)autonomous probes seem more likely. But where do you send them? In the direction of something interesting or valuable already detected? How do we do that, again?

It may be speculated that upon death, that fraction of human consciousness that is non-material (i.e., pure energy or the "soul") rejoins the realm of inorganic life.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
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Exorcet
Space travel would be a risk for us, but probably less so for a more advanced civilization. It might even be the norm. We're actually heading in that direction, though it's not clear where we will end up or when we'll get there.

..... in search of another planet full of raw materials. Once reaching the material planet, it would replicate and then dispatch a massive wave of probes to a bunch of preprogrammed targets. These second generation probes would do the same, and so on. The AI on each probe might be able to engineer a better design for each new generation, or it might remain in contact with the home planet over short distances.

Either of these methods could cover a lot of ground quickly, even if "quickly" means millions of years in the scale of the universe.

You'd probably tend to mine asteroid belts, I would think, since you don't have the huge gravity well problem, and if you are relying on AI (assuming that's not us/them at that stage), less risk of messing up the planets you're seeking; but I tend to agree. Unless you happen to be searching for planets to seed/colonize/terraform (not necessary if the probes also are the sentient explorers, in all probability), the impetus to embark on such a program (the surplus of ability and energy available allows for it) would also mean intelligent beings would be quite painstaking about designing the program. Unless they/we aren't curious, and just want the planets (or entire solar systems). Ruh Roh.

Dotini
I'm willing to consider that we live in an alien created simulacrum - if we provide that the program is rendered corrupt and defective by decay, bugs and viruses. This would be so because the putative behavior of alien entities - UFOs - is always absurd or foolish, showing little real intelligence beyond the feral and tricksterish.

How fast is the speed of thought? With thought alone I might easily transfer my consciousness from one end of the universe to another in a nanosecond. There are too many cases on record where UFOs have been able to read the intentions of percipients at a distance and react preemptively.

The aliens, whoever or whatever they are - presumably immortal, evolved inorganic electromagnetic plasma energies - are already here, and simultaneously everywhere else in the universe, too.

We might do better by ignoring these "caretakers" than we do by deliberately interacting with them. It can be debated if such dissimilar lifeforms have anything positive to offer each other.

It may be speculated that upon death, that fraction of human consciousness that is non-material (i.e., pure energy or the "soul") rejoins the realm of inorganic life.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

It seems to me that the key difference between the Simulation Argument and related previous concepts (possibly including religion, as well as obvious things like the Matrix) is the situation in which it becomes mathematically very, very likely if certain assumptions are met. Unavoidable even for atheists, perhaps.

In any case, the motivation behind an individual simulation will obviously greatly affect the perception of residents. Study and entertainment are the obvious ones, but reproduction or education would be fascinating. Motivation is a difficult issue, because there's no guarantee we could actually comprehend it - what you say about dissimilar life forms echoes what I said about interacting with other comprehensible (similar time/space scale, not vastly extremeophilic or massively further ahead developmentally). Look what the monkeys are doing near the monolith...

There's no need to have omnipresence or omniscience when you can pause for a few millennia, study the logs, and rerun from snapshots..... but the phenomena you describe don't even require something as deep as that, or as fast as spooky action at a distance, because the scales just aren't big enough to need it. Heck, even human cognitive biases (the same ones that underly animistic world views, and ascribe agency to every unexplained "action" as a simple survival bet) could be to blame, letting alone physical or technological explanations.

The speed of thought would seem to be entirely dependent on the substrate; ours is pretty slow, being made of meat. If you're positing that the real substrate is in fact composed of consciousness, I think you're making Nick's argument sound pretty convincing. And remember, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology!
 
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We did send Huygens there, and it landed and reported data for about 90 minutes. But it would be nice to have something permanent either orbiting Titan or a longer lived lander, though the it would struggle to get power from sunlight, which would be an issue.
 
These have been around for a bit but I thought I'd post them for anyone who hasn't seen them yet. These are official Nasa photographs from Endeavour mission STS 88.
They're all labelled "space debris". ;)

STS088-724-68.jpg
STS088-724-67.jpg
STS088_detail11.jpg
ISD_highres_STS088_STS088-724-70_3-1.jpg
isd_highres_sts088_sts088-724-69_303-1.jpg
isd_highres_sts088_sts088-724-68_303-1.jpg


here are some close-ups:
sts-88.jpg


For the amusement of members, here is an extensive site which wanders off into many areas of research and speculation regarding the above photos, now identified as the Black Knight.
http://mysteryoftheinquity.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/the-black-knight-satellite-2/

Respectfully,
Steve
 
Has anyone here considered the possibility that the only long term surviving aliens are machines?

Think about it, you would imagine that any civilisation that can reach other star systems might well have achieved their own Technological Singularity. If so, then surely there is a chance that the Singularity would outlive it's creators?
 
Has anyone here considered the possibility that the only long term surviving aliens are machines?

Think about it, you would imagine that any civilisation that can reach other star systems might well have achieved their own Technological Singularity. If so, then surely there is a chance that the Singularity would outlive it's creators?

Nah. Never. Not likely.

Just have a blue pill, coppertop, it'll help you relax :sly:

(Those were just my tangential ones; there were likely more, but I honestly can't remember particular examples from when I read the thread).

Additionally.... thought this was mildy apropos (a more accessible version of http://xkcd.com/1110/, if you'd prefer the original presentation to explore).
 
Nah. Never. Not likely.

Just have a blue pill, coppertop, it'll help you relax :sly:

(Those were just my tangential ones; there were likely more, but I honestly can't remember particular examples from when I read the thread).

Additionally.... thought this was mildy apropos (a more accessible version of http://xkcd.com/1110/, if you'd prefer the original presentation to explore).

Well I am glad some have highlighted the idea here, I think it could be the most likely scenario. And intelligent machine could replace it's parts, or create an even more intelligent machine that creates an even more intelligent machine. Before we know it, they have worked out alot regarding space travel over large distances and ofcourse, could survive long enough to see the end of the trip and go back to report to the other machines.

:)

On a far more personal note of my personal note, I doubt such a life form (may as well call it that, the Singularity for all senses of the description are individuals that can think) would want to declare war on us. They can advance faster than we could and hence, we are not a threat. If anything, they might want us to survive so that we go on to create our own technological singularity which in turn might help them solve more issues.

So yup, I believe in Aliens. From microbial type life, to fully fledged civilisations and the mechanical life they may create if given enough time.Those that have been around the longest and are the most advanced I would assume are the most adaptable to environment of space itself... the machines.
 
Well I am glad some have highlighted the idea here, I think it could be the most likely scenario. And intelligent machine could replace it's parts, or create an even more intelligent machine that creates an even more intelligent machine. Before we know it, they have worked out alot regarding space travel over large distances and ofcourse, could survive long enough to see the end of the trip and go back to report to the other machines.

:)

On a far more personal note of my personal note, I doubt such a life form (may as well call it that, the Singularity for all senses of the description are individuals that can think) would want to declare war on us.
They can advance faster than we could and hence, we are not a threat. If anything, they might want us to survive so that we go on to create our own technological singularity which in turn might help them solve more issues.

So yup, I believe in Aliens. From microbial type life, to fully fledged civilisations and the mechanical life they may create if given enough time.Those that have been around the longest and are the most advanced I would assume are the most adaptable to environment of space itself... the machines.

Without any intention of insult, but I think this is really naive thinking, and you are not the only one thinking that way.

We should not forget that the concept of "ego" might be somewhat universal to selfware advanced beings like us, and if you imagine some of those beings 1000's of years more advanced than us, having multiple times more physical strength and IQ of us, I really think it's a safe bet to say there are others, who definatly are a threat for us, and see in us a threat.
I really believe we will reach a technological level in a few hunderd years, where we can be a serious threat to anyone in a range of some 100 or thousand light years around us and I think that is why we are being watched closely, as to not become this threat.
 
Aliens exist. Sheer probability. Anyone who denies that is a moron. If they have visited, and what they are, anyones guess is as good as mine.
 
I think it's pretty arrogant for someone to believe we are the only living creatures in the whole of the universe, I don't doubt that they've visited earth before either. And don't want to be called a loony for saying this but I think they may have come around the time of the egyptians as a lot of their deities could resemble extraterrestrial beings.
 
The way I see it is we could be the most advanced civilisation in the universe, it's not inconceivable. In this universe at least we are all made from the same set of ingredients, the only difference being evolution. On a different planet evolution could have taken a human like species in a totally different direction than here on earth. But I do believe there are multiple universes so in a different universe with different laws(physics) who the hell knows.
 
I think it's pretty arrogant for someone to believe we are the only living creatures in the whole of the universe, I don't doubt that they've visited earth before either. And don't want to be called a loony for saying this but I think they may have come around the time of the egyptians as a lot of their deities could resemble extraterrestrial beings.

Only the arrogant will call you a loony for that.
 
I think it's pretty arrogant for someone to believe we are the only living creatures in the whole of the universe, I don't doubt that they've visited earth before either. And don't want to be called a loony for saying this but I think they may have come around the time of the egyptians as a lot of their deities could resemble extraterrestrial beings.

There is evidence every where that could be conceived as proof af ancient aliens, just look at the pyramids or more importantly how did they get stones the size houses that high up.
 
There is evidence every where that could be conceived as proof af ancient aliens, just look at the pyramids or more importantly how did they get stones the size houses that high up.

Most people would say, “there's a logical explanation”. - I just can't see how the “aliens” should have helped the ancient Egyptians. - I do believe in aliens... sort of.
 
Only the arrogant will call you a loony for that.

Not really, there is no evidence for this at all. Egyptian deities resemble people with animal heads. That basically makes alien involvement extremely unlikely. The chances of aliens looking like humans (half animal/half human) is low.

There is evidence every where that could be conceived as proof af ancient aliens, just look at the pyramids or more importantly how did they get stones the size houses that high up.

What about the pyramids? And why would aliens help people move rocks? And if they did, why would they leave and not be helping us today? Why is there no record of their presence?

The pyramids would look less amazing today if we had slave labor and a sizable portion of the population devoted to it. Instead, we give people lunch breaks, reasonable work hours, and don't let them overexert themselves or take on unnecessary work risk. This counter acts technology speeding up the building process to a degree.
 
Most people would say, “there's a logical explanation”. - I just can't see how the “aliens” should have helped the ancient Egyptians. - I do believe in aliens... sort of.

That's just one example, look at the Sumerian stone carvings and there are symbols that clearly look like rockets and an alien in some sort of breathing apparatus.
 
Not really, there is no evidence for this at all. Egyptian deities resemble people with animal heads. That basically makes alien involvement extremely unlikely. The chances of aliens looking like humans (half animal/half human) is low.

You can tell? Some scientists came to the conclusion that the humanoid body sort of represents the perfect physical apparatus for an advanced, with hands working, organism. I would have to agree with them.

The size of it, the weight, the mathematics/geometry involved, how it uses energy and how adapatable it is, it is a "winner formula". I don't believe in coincidences, the universe, or "God", or whatever you would like to see as a creative force of the universe would know what formula to use most for succesful specieses.
 
The size of it, the weight, the mathematics/geometry involved, how it uses energy and how adapatable it is, it is a "winner formula".

On Earth, on land, over the last 250,000 years only, with a Main Sequence middle aged star.

Also, we can't squeeze ourselves into empty soda cans likes an octopus, and they have 4 times as many arms that can do the same things our 2 can. Give them a couple million years and they might build Atlantis in the Marianas Trench.

There's definitely room for more configurations than the human one. We've got competition on Earth as it is as far as anatomical practicality goes.
 
There is evidence every where that could be conceived as proof af ancient aliens, just look at the pyramids or more importantly how did they get stones the size houses that high up.

I think you might underestimate the ingenuity of the ancient humans. And you need to know that building a pyramid was done over the course of decades, not years as is required today with building a sky scraper.

Edit: The Empire State Building was build in just over a year. Aliens? Nah, humans!

There's definitely room for more configurations than the human one. We've got competition on Earth as it is as far as anatomical practicality goes.

But all that practicality goes out the window as soon as us humans leave the planet, and it's gravity. Unless we create a gravity machine.
 

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