Less Japanese cars, more regional cars

Snaeper
I'm under the firm belief that GT could increase it's American market share of GT titles by including an amazing selection of American cars, let alone European, Australian and world cars in general.
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Sweet and now switch "American" with "European" or "Australian" and you'll get pretty much the same just from another point of view.
 
Snaeper
I'm under the firm belief that GT could increase it's American market share of GT titles by including an amazing selection of American cars, let alone European, Australian and world cars in general.
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dr_slump
Sweet and now switch "American" with "European" or "Australian" and you'll get pretty much the same just from another point of view.
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That's what I meant by "let alone". I was basically inferring that European and Australians, as well as the many others from around the world, would likely feel the same way. But I can't exactly speak for them since I'm American.
 
1241Penguin
You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you asked me.
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If you feel such negativity towards the franchise, which is evident in the way you adress the game, maybe it's time to move on. I have put many hours into GT5 and it improved on GT4 in many ways, maybe not as much as people were hoping from the long wait. I agree a lot more improvements are needed for GT6 to keep up with competition, but if you feel that the game is going to be an imminent disappointment I question as to why you are setting yourself up for another disappointment?
 
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Earth
There is no reasoning behind that outside of outright bias which Kaz had admitted to on several occasions.
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He admitted there were too many similar Japanese models and he said that was because they were the cars he and the developers grew up with and were used to. He suggested they seemed important at the time, but he now sees there were too many and that they don't have the same appeal to others.

In other interviews, he has also made it clear that the vast majority of cars made available to PD, especially in early days--but this continues with licensing arrangements and transport limitations, were Japanese companies. These were the first firms willing to be involved and the most accessible at the time.

"Bias" and especially "outright bias," as a noun, has implications that relate to prejudice and fairness. These aren't mere implications, either, as those words are included in many dictionary definitions of "bias".

Perhaps if PD were FIFA or a judging organisation, the word "bias" might reasonably apply, but in this case, I think it's off the mark.
 
Ignition
If you feel such negativity towards the franchise, which is evident in the way you adress the game, maybe it's time to move on. I have put many hours into GT5 and it improved on GT4 in many ways, maybe not as much as people were hoping from the long wait. I agree a lot more improvements are needed for GT6 to keep up with competition, but if you feel that the game is going to be an imminent disappointment I question as to why you are setting yourself up for another disappointment?
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I'm talking about how you would be disappointed in the car list if you're expecting PD to have a handful more non-Japanese cars. Never did I say I would be imminently disappointed in the game, in fact, just where did you get this idea? Looking at the more recent GT games, and in fact all of them, there has always been an imbalance in cars.

For you to think that PD is focusing a lot more on non-Japanese cars based only on that small glimpse of the car list is just a way of setting yourself up for disappointment. We can all look at GT5's foreign manufactures (Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Chrysler, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz), without looking at the Japanese manufactures, and then think to ourselves "wow! PD is starting to focus on non-Japanese cars!" But then of course, they reveal the rest of the car list and you find about 30 Miatas and 40 Skylines.
 
Earth
There should never, ever be more Japanese cars in the game then European. There is no reasoning behind that outside of outright bias which Kaz had admitted to on several occasions. A fair and balanced game would have Euro cars outnumbering anything else by at least 3:2
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If you think the only thing that determines which cars get added is which cars PD wants, you're very much mistaken.

It's easy for PD to get their hands on Japanese cars. They're all over Japan and they can just drive there or have the cars drive to them. Now if they have access to these cars, and time to model them, there's no reason they shouldn't. Hopefully you agree there.

For cars from other countries, European, American, or otherwise, there's a lot of travel involved. This takes a lot of time. And considering most of the time, PD is going to be traveling to the car and not the other way around, they're not under ideal circumstances to model the cars. Even if it weren't such a hassle to model European or American cars, it's always going to be so much easier for them to get cars that are already in Japan.

They may be trying very hard to get as many European and American cars as possible, but because it's so difficult, they simply can't get as many as they can in Japan.

I think the primary assumption you're making here is that if PD avoided adding Japanese cars, they could take that time to add just as many cars from another region. And that simply isn't the case.

Another point I'd like to make is that if you took out all the Japanese cars from GT4 (yeah, 4) it still had more cars than Forza 2 had total. I don't really have time to do the math now but I suspect it's pretty close with GT5 and Forza 4 as well. So even if the percentage of foreign cars is lower in GT5, it still has more of those cars than other games, which is much more important.

Yes, a lot of them are standard, but that's just the result of them having so many models from GT4. They're adding Premium cars now that favor Europe and America more than ever before. Yes, they're still mostly Japanese, but I don't see how they could possibly avoid that without adding less cars than they could, which would be pretty dumb if you ask me.
 
dylansan
Another point I'd like to make is that if you took out all the Japanese cars from GT4 (yeah, 4) it still had more cars than Forza 2 had total. I don't really have time to do the math now but I suspect it's pretty close with GT5 and Forza 4 as well. So even if the percentage of foreign cars is lower in GT5, it still has more of those cars than other games, which is much more important.
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To an extent. I mean, would you prefer to have a garage full of Dodge Neons, or a garage with two Italian exotics?
 
1241Penguin
I'm talking about how you would be disappointed in the car list if you're expecting PD to have a handful more non-Japanese cars. Never did I say I would be imminently disappointed in the game, in fact, just where did you get this idea? Looking at the more recent GT games, and in fact all of them, there has always been an imbalance in cars.

For you to think that PD is focusing a lot more on non-Japanese cars based only on that small glimpse of the car list is just a way of setting yourself up for disappointment. We can all look at GT5's foreign manufactures (Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Chrysler, BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz), without looking at the Japanese manufactures, and then think to ourselves "wow! PD is starting to focus on non-Japanese cars!" But then of course, they reveal the rest of the car list and you find about 30 Miatas and 40 Skylines.
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Well you're telling me that I'm heading towards disappointment due to my optimism of more non Japanese cars, implying that unless you like the ratio of Japanese cars to be higher than every other car, you are also heading towards the same fate as I.

I wasn't using the list as a secure indication that PD has changed their ways of adding way too many Japanese cars. I was saying the list provided is a small indication of diversity which could be continued. For instance 2 new Hyundai's are getting some attention along with some European iconic classics. So far, so good is all I am saying.
 
Ignition
Well you're telling me that I'm heading towards disappointment due to my optimism of more non Japanese cars, implying that unless you like the ratio of Japanese cars to be higher than every other car, you are also heading towards the same fate as I.
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Implying? In what way? I never stated whether I love or hate Japanese cars. In fact, I don't really care. So tell me again how I'm going to be disappointed that there's not more Japanese cars than European or American car.
I wasn't using the list as a secure indication that PD has changed their ways of adding way too many Japanese cars. I was saying the list provided is a small indication of diversity which could be continued. For instance 2 new Hyundai's are getting some attention along with some European iconic classics. So far, so good is all I am saying.
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Most of the cars in the GT6 list are from the SEMA show or Pebble Beach auto show. Taking this into account, you can look at the GT5 car list, pick out all cars from the Pebble Beach and SEMA shows, and then lead yourself to the false idea that it will have more foreign cars compared to Japanese cars than in previous iterations.
 
dylansan
If you think the only thing that determines which cars get added is which cars PD wants, you're very much mistaken.

It's easy for PD to get their hands on Japanese cars. They're all over Japan and they can just drive there or have the cars drive to them. Now if they have access to these cars, and time to model them, there's no reason they shouldn't. Hopefully you agree there.

For cars from other countries, European, American, or otherwise, there's a lot of travel involved. This takes a lot of time. And considering most of the time, PD is going to be traveling to the car and not the other way around, they're not under ideal circumstances to model the cars. Even if it weren't such a hassle to model European or American cars, it's always going to be so much easier for them to get cars that are already in Japan.

They may be trying very hard to get as many European and American cars as possible, but because it's so difficult, they simply can't get as many as they can in Japan.

I think the primary assumption you're making here is that if PD avoided adding Japanese cars, they could take that time to add just as many cars from another region. And that simply isn't the case.

Another point I'd like to make is that if you took out all the Japanese cars from GT4 (yeah, 4) it still had more cars than Forza 2 had total. I don't really have time to do the math now but I suspect it's pretty close with GT5 and Forza 4 as well. So even if the percentage of foreign cars is lower in GT5, it still has more of those cars than other games, which is much more important.

Yes, a lot of them are standard, but that's just the result of them having so many models from GT4. They're adding Premium cars now that favor Europe and America more than ever before. Yes, they're still mostly Japanese, but I don't see how they could possibly avoid that without adding less cars than they could, which would be pretty dumb if you ask me.
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Even when PD travels to the cars, that doesn't mean that the owners make their work easy. Kaz went the extra mile to include the Lamborghini Miura prototype. There's only one, and PD traveled to model it. Problem is, the owner wouldn't take it out of his garage, so PD had to go inside and work around all the other stuff in the garage to model the Miura.
 
The Miura is a pretty unfair example, one that shouldn't be applicable when it comes to modelling mass production EU/US cars. In most cases, I'm sure they'd be sourced by the manufacturer to model in an optimal environment, either at PD HQ or elsewhere in the world. And if it means travelling, then so be it.

Regardless, T10 don't have any problems creating a more proportional list, inc. some oldies, so whatever the issues are that is stopping Polyphony from creating a more balanced list can clearly be overcome somehow.
 
1241Penguin
Implying? In what way? I never stated whether I love or hate Japanese cars. In fact, I don't really care. So tell me again how I'm going to be disappointed that there's not more Japanese cars than European or American car.

Most of the cars in the GT6 list are from the SEMA show or Pebble Beach auto show. Taking this into account, you can look at the GT5 car list, pick out all cars from the Pebble Beach and SEMA shows, and then lead yourself to the false idea that it will have more foreign cars compared to Japanese cars than in previous iterations.
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You told me you think I am heading for appointment's If I think PD will add more non-Japanese cars, meaning you're not feeling optimistic about the chances of it happening. Which in turn implies that unless you like a higher ratio of Japanese cars over other countries, you yourself are heading for disappointment too. That makes perfect sense does it not? I'm not saying you hate or love Japanese cars. Also to your last question, I don't exactly see where that fits in with our conversation? I never said anything about you're heading for disappointment if there's less Japanese cars?

Finally, I'm not leading myself for anything? I'm not expecting I hope. It doesn't matter what they're from, still a good list so far, don't you agree?
 
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deep_sky
The Miura is a pretty unfair example, one that shouldn't be applicable when it comes to modelling mass production EU/US cars. In most cases, I'm sure they'd be sourced by the manufacturer to model in an optimal environment, either at PD HQ or elsewhere in the world. And if it means travelling, then so be it.

Regardless, T10 don't have any problems creating a more proportional list, inc. some oldies, so whatever the issues are that is stopping Polyphony from creating a more balanced list can clearly be overcome somehow.
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T10 outsourced a lot of their modelling, at least in earlier games. I can't find out where they outsourced to for Forza 4, if anywhere, but the car list is predominantly European. In fact, there's more cars from Germany alone than from Japan. If anything, Japan is underrepresented in Forza 4.

Not to mention, Forza still has less cars overall, so even if the list is more balanced, the odds of you finding a particular car you want in Forza is always going to be less than the odds of finding it in GT5, no matter what region the car is from. (A good portion of Forza's cars are race cars with different liveries, a higher proportion than GT at least)

But this is not a GT vs Forza thread, so I digress.
 
dylansan
.Not to mention, Forza still has less cars overall, so even if the list is more balanced, the odds of you finding a particular car you want in Forza is always going to be less than the odds of finding it in GT5, no matter what region the car is from. (A good portion of Forza's cars are race cars with different liveries, a higher proportion than GT at least).
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I would say you would have a greater chance of finding a particular car in GT5 than Forza, but I wouldn't use the word "always". Forza has a lot of cars that GT5 doesn't have.
 
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dylansan
But this is not a GT vs Forza thread, so I digress.
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We're not making it into one, but it's a fact that T10 have managed to create a more balanced list of "premium" cars, showing that the kind of issues that are said to prevent Polyphony from doing the same can be overcome.

I also think the "Forza has less cars overall" argument is pretty shaky, because whilst that might be true today, when standard cars are ditched - IMO in GT6 - suddenly it's going to be GT that is going to be miles behind.

Not that the ultimate car count is too important; for most GT players, 500 premiums in GT6 would be a good and realistic number, but the representation needs be better, and whatever it takes to do that, they should do it.

I don't know if it's the kind of issue that would make lots of people switch over to Forza if the representation doesn't improve in GT6, but I'm certainly on the fence.
 
Well I think in GT6 if they cant't make all the cars they want in time for GT6, PD should just do an update every month for adding new cars in GT6. Then everybody will be sadified for every car in that game they wanted.
 
There is another reason why there are so many more Japanese cars as opposed to European and U.S. models- in Japan itself, there are very few American cars and probably not a great deal of European ones. Therefore, PD do not have easy access to non-Japanese cars whereas say, Turn 10, have a much wider choice based in NA as there are plenty of Japanese and Euro vehicles everywhere you look.
Hence, why imo Forza 4 has a much better and more diverse line-up of cars than GT5.
 
dylansan
T10 outsourced a lot of their modelling, at least in earlier games. I can't find out where they outsourced to for Forza 4, if anywhere, but the car list is predominantly European. In fact, there's more cars from Germany alone than from Japan. If anything, Japan is underrepresented in Forza 4.

Not to mention, Forza still has less cars overall, so even if the list is more balanced, the odds of you finding a particular car you want in Forza is always going to be less than the odds of finding it in GT5, no matter what region the car is from. (A good portion of Forza's cars are race cars with different liveries, a higher proportion than GT at least)

But this is not a GT vs Forza thread, so I digress.
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Quality > quantity is what Forza's car list is based on. Cars that I actually want are in Forza 4. I'm not too interested in a Nissan Canopy or a Nissan Bluebird. As for the odds of finding a particular car in GT5 being greater- sure, if you're looking for Japanese variations of the same car.
And let's not even talk about the number of famous manufacturers that are missing in GT5- Koenigsegg, Porsche, Saab to name a few.
 
Ryan81
Forza 4 has a much better and more diverse line-up of cars than GT5.
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Forza 4 certainly has a much superior car line-up than any Gran Turismo title.
And also it definitely has better line-up of Japanese cars than Gran Turismo 5. But Forza 3 had Porsche unlike it's successor.
 
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JDmsz
Well I think in GT6 if they cant't make all the cars they want in time for GT6, PD should just do an update every month for adding new cars in GT6. Then everybody will be sadified for every car in that game they wanted.
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But then there would be no new cars for GT7!
 
finnracer
But then there would be no new cars for GT7!
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Both good points. But are you saying there shouldn't be any DLC for GT6 Either?

Let me give you an example using Forza, sorry it's just the best way.
The DLC for Forza 2 was great, they brought some really good cars to the game and included many car packs which I bought. But when Forza 3 came around nearly every car I bought from the DLC's were in included into Forza 3. Then it circled around again. I bought all the car packs for Forza 3, then when Forza 4 was released, it included all the DLC vehicles.

So at the time you think it's a great deal, but then when the next game gets released and you realize it has all the DLC vehicles from the last game, It's not a nice feeling realizing how much you've spent.
 
Ignition
Both good points. But are you saying there shouldn't be any DLC for GT6 Either?

Let me give you an example using Forza, sorry it's just the best way.
The DLC for Forza 2 was great, they brought some really good cars to the game and included many car packs which I bought. But when Forza 3 came around nearly every car I bought from the DLC's were in included into Forza 3. Then it circled around again. I bought all the car packs for Forza 3, then when Forza 4 was released, it included all the DLC vehicles.

So at the time you think it's a great deal, but then when the next game gets released and you realize it has all the DLC vehicles from the last game, It's not a nice feeling realizing how much you've spent.
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I feel the same way as you my friend, the same way about all that you wrote in your post.
 

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