The Subaru BRZ S '12 & Toyota 86 GT '12 ARE The SAME

Post-test brief update:


Lap times @ Monaco:

1. Scion FR-S '12 = 1:58.0
2. Toyota 86GT '12 = 1:58.2
3. Subaru BRZ = 1:59.2 (iirc)


This post is a significantly shortened version of a very long post to come.


In each, I'll discuss the problems with each car, as stock, because each car didn't feel "correctly tuned" to my liking. I definitely have a lot more to say, but, it's 2 A.M.


But, for now, feel free to discuss the differences.

Thanks^

In real life the Toyota comes on less grippy tyres according to what i've read?!

phil_75

Thanks^

In real life the Toyota comes on less grippy tyres according to what i've read?!

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My findings will be explained later.


The Toyota & Scion fit my driving style slightly better than the Subaru, which is mainly reflected in lap times. When I make time for it, expect a full-length post, comparing & contrasting the three cars. And, because I believe that all three cars are coming to Canada, I might be able to source three sources (real life, GT5, & magazines) to properly compare and contrast. If that's the case, I'll probably make a full-length thread for it.

I did three short run at London Reverse in practice mode, grip set to real, no ABS, all other aids off.

All cars fitted with comfort hard tires, all cars brand new, stock, no oil change and less than 50 miles on the odo. All cars driven with same BB : 9/6. The run is done for only 1 lap, no warm up, no restart.

Toyota 86 GT, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.103
The car has quite a loose rear, sharp steering, feels light and nimble, a bit edgy than the other 2 siblings.

Scion FR-S, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.836
The middle ground, stable, balanced handling, steering is comparable to 86 GT, but the rear is a bit less prone to break free.

Subaru BRZ S, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.963
The under dog I should say, it understeer at times, less sharp steering, a bit numb in the feedback from the rear although still can break free when given enough load. More predictable than Scion and 86 GT

Even when the stock suspension shows the same values, the handling is definitely not the same when driven, those grayed out numbers should never be used as reference, PD hides the true values applied to the car specific physics.

Our findings are similar, Ridox, but, entirely different in one interesting way... I hit a wall every lap in that Toyota, and plan on touching on the reasons/fixes for the problems.


And, my findings fully support your findings, with the Subaru, but I have the reason for it; excessive body roll.

Do all 3 have exact same weight, hp and pp when stock?

Looking forwards to the write ups guys, thanks for info so far.

phil_75

Do all 3 have exact same weight, hp and pp when stock?

Looking forwards to the write ups guys, thanks for info so far.

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Yes, 192hp, 402pp , 1230kg

Ridox2JZGTE

Yes, 192hp, 402pp , 1230kg

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The specs are the same, but, don't let it fool you. If you do a subjective, honest test, you'll notice huge differences.

One single lap with ABS off (which includes several inconsistency factors, especially if you set the grip reduction to real) can't possibly be considered reliable, sorry (unless you're a robot). Also try using the automatic gearbox for maximum consistency (the three cars have the same engine, so this shouldn't be a problem for the purpose of comparison).

Which view have you used by the way? You should use the "bumper" view. With the cockpit view, with left-hand drive cars you get a greater feeling of body roll on left turns, and vice versa.

By the way, I found this:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10416
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739

The FR-S, BR-Z and the 86GT all have at the very least different spring rates for their suspensions, and real values are very different than what is GT5, both in actual figures than in balance.

SHIRAKAWA Akira

One single lap with ABS off (which includes several inconsistency factors, especially if you set the grip reduction to real) can't possibly be considered reliable, sorry (unless you're a robot). Also try using the automatic gearbox for maximum consistency (the three cars have the same engine, so this shouldn't be a problem for the purpose of comparison).

Which view have you used by the way? You should use the "bumper" view. With the cockpit view, with left-hand drive cars you get a greater feeling of body roll on left turns, and vice versa.

By the way, I found this:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10416
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739

The FR-S, BR-Z and the 86GT all have at the very least different spring rates for their suspensions, and real values are very different than what is GT5, both in actual figures than in balance.

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I can upload the best lap replay if you want, all in 1st lap, all done in cockpit view. I don't have capture card, so the best I can do is replay file, and I have US version - BCUSxxx.

SHIRAKAWA Akira, I used hood view. All cars were painted the same shade of white, and all cars tested on the same racing line, for three laps. I took the fastest lap of the three laps.

I second what Ridox said. I can do similar = Camera upload to YouTube with all telemetry from Data Logger on-screen, comparing all three laps against each other...

Three laps is nowhere near enough laps to get reliable data. You would need to do 20 laps at the very least.

MrMelancholy15

So, you're disappointed? *insert Nelson* Ha-ha! There are drastic differences!

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Actually, as I said earlier on in the thread; I didn't bother buying the BRZ since I already have many GT-86s and don't care for driving the FRS or any other duplicates I will have to pay for (BRZ).

MrMelancholy15

But, for now, feel free to discuss the differences.

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How do we know your driving is not a factor in the time differences?

Ridox2JZGTE

I did three short run at London Reverse in practice mode, grip set to real, no ABS, all other aids off.

All cars fitted with comfort hard tires, all cars brand new, stock, no oil change and less than 50 miles on the odo. All cars driven with same BB : 9/6. The run is done for only 1 lap, no warm up, no restart.

Toyota 86 GT, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.103
The car has quite a loose rear, sharp steering, feels light and nimble, a bit edgy than the other 2 siblings.

Scion FR-S, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.836
The middle ground, stable, balanced handling, steering is comparable to 86 GT, but the rear is a bit less prone to break free.

Subaru BRZ S, 192hp 402pp
Time 1:10.963
The under dog I should say, it understeer at times, less sharp steering, a bit numb in the feedback from the rear although still can break free when given enough load. More predictable than Scion and 86 GT

Even when the stock suspension shows the same values, the handling is definitely not the same when driven, those grayed out numbers should never be used as reference, PD hides the true values applied to the car specific physics.

Click to expand...

I am sharing my best lap replay, all done in 1st try, 1st lap, no restart. These replays are from US GT5 disc, BCUS-xxxx. If anyone interested to upload on the youtube and have the same region GT5 disc to capture it, I would be very happy, so everyone can see them, and I can send a ticket as a present

Toyota 86 GT
Time 1:10.103
RPL 011

Subaru BRZ S
Time 1:10.963
RPL 010

Scion FR-S
Time 1:10.836
RPL 009

After reading this thread I conducted a test of my own and the results are quite significantly different to those already seen. The cars were straight off the showroom floor with no oil change and SH tyres, driven at Suzuka in an online lounge with ABS 1, fuel and tyre consumption on, track edge grip set to real with a Logitech G25, sequential shifting, naturally no clutch. Around ten laps for each car. First out was the FR-S, then the 86 GT, then the BRZ, then going back to the Toyota and finally the Scion again. On the first half of the test each model was faster than the one before but the BRZ held the lead despite both the 86 GT and FR-S improving their times on the second go.

Scion FR-S: 2'32,609
Subaru BRZ: 2'32,418
Toyota 86 GT: 2'32,635

The lap times are very close but the cars themselves are noticably different. They're definitely not the same, the first corner of Suzuka is enough to prove that.

The FR-S feels the softest all round, being a jack of all trades but a master of none. It has a slightly lighter steering feel than the 86 GT and considerably lighter than the BRZ. The BRZ on the other hand gives a feeling of a stiff front end combined to a softer rear, leading to handling that feels like understeer but actually is more lack of oversteer - the front doesn't let go but neither does the rear. Thanks to the sharp and weighted steering it rules the high speed sections where the other two feel slightly wallowy. The 86 GT is by far the most oversteering of the three and has to be driven that way, it simply refuses to grip during hard cornering. The rear feels very lively while the front is comparable with the Scion, it's the most entertaining of the three to drive but also the hardest to drive consistently, especially at high speeds.

In the end the choice is up to the player and their driving style. Although there are slight differences in lap times driving a 86 GT isn't an excuse if you lost to a BRZ - two tenths a lap simply doesn't warrant such a claim.

1241Penguin

How do we know your driving is not a factor in the time differences?

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How many racing lines are there at Monaco? The BRZ understeered... The difference in lap times is the apex speed at lower speed corners. I compared all of the telemetries.

MrMelancholy15

How many racing lines are there at Monaco? The BRZ understeered... The difference in lap times is the apex speed at lower speed corners. I compared all of the telemetries.

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Can you give us the range of times lapped by the three cars?

Each one was 1:59-2:00 at Monaco, without assists, and in practice mode with Real Grip Reduction & Heavy damage on.

I tested Subaru and Scion on twin Motegi, and Scion was a little bit faster (stock settings). Also the Scion sounds better IMO. Too bad, cause Subaru was always known for great sound.

MrMelancholy15

How many racing lines are there at Monaco? The BRZ understeered... The difference in lap times is the apex speed at lower speed corners. I compared all of the telemetries.

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It doesn't matter, you can still take slightly different lines that affect speed by a few mph, that's why you need to do a lot more laps to get more comparative data. I mean do you think race teams do 3 laps and then assume that's the fastest the car can go because there is only one fastest racing line? No.

Plus another thing to bear in mind is that the cars, even if they are different, it's minimal and they're mostly the same. Because of that the car you drive last is likely to get better lap times as it's your 9th lap around the track in mostly the same car so you've got more of a feeling for it.

Neither of those cars are the same they each have there own form of handling and aerodynamics of the body and ive drifted and raced all three and neither of them show similarities except for the fact they all look similar.

SimonK

Plus another thing to bear in mind is that the cars, even if they are different, it's minimal and they're mostly the same. Because of that the car you drive last is likely to get better lap times as it's your 9th lap around the track in mostly the same car so you've got more of a feeling for it.

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Agree totally.

Another thing is, if you have your ghost from previous car.

Its a lot to ask but at least 7 laps around a track you know very well in each car then change order so every car goes 1st, 2nd and 3rd. (so 21 laps at least altogether per car)
Discard fastest and slowest lap of each car then use the average of the remaining.

That will give a decent indication in the quickest time without going overboard on it.

Would do it myself but i haven't got the Scooby yet.

EuroTuned

Neither of those cars are the same they each have there own form of handling and aerodynamics of the body and ive drifted and raced all three and neither of them show similarities except for the fact they all look similar.

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Agreed i have the 3 fully tuned and 3 bone stock ones only chage rims and oil the 3 fully tuned i have 3 setups drift,track,nurbrugrind and i have to say they are fun cars to drive but i dont fell they are the same

kingstang5oh

They are all the same and they are all junk. Why even bother putting 3 versions of the same garage car in the game when you could be adding cars we really want. But then again PD doesn't care about anything made outside japan.

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Maybe you didn't want it. But I did. They're not the same, and I enjoy finding the minor changes in them that gives them separate personalities.

I read the thread and I read that there is a small difference (stock suspension) when the cars are stock, but what is the differnce when they are fully tuned?
If I fully tune both cars (with the same suspension, gearbox and LSD settings), will they perform exactly the same?

Thomas

Thomasss95

I read the thread and I read that there is a small difference (stock suspension) when the cars are stock, but what is they are fully tuned?
If I fully tune both cars (with the same suspension, gearbox and LSD settings), will they perform exactly the same?

Thomas

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I couldn't tell you pal, although I do have all three twice (tuned and stock), and I can't tell much difference. Although I would say that the BRZ seems to be a little faster.

nealcropper

I couldn't tell you pal, although I do have all three twice (tuned and stock), and I can't tell much difference. Although I would say that the BRZ seems to be a little faster.

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And you use the same tune on both cars?
Is the minimum weight (weight reduction 3, windows and hood) the same?

I have been doing a lot of laps in the 86, the BRZ, the scion and the Toyota concept 11.

They are all very simliar but they do all have their own handling charactistics.

The BRZ is my fav, its just so controllable and you can just push and push and push. It does seem to have a limit, eventually to how much you can push. It just wont go further, but you still wont lose it. I find the 86 to be slightly faster. It is a little more oversteery and feels more like a racecar that the others. Has a racier rev too. The Scion i find to be the softest of the lot but still fun to drive. Seem a little muted though. The concept 11 feels like the 86. Racier and revier and more racecar like, but it seems a little slower than the 86.

I have done 30 laps each round TG track
1. 86
2. BRZ
3. concept '11
4. Scion

All times were within a second of each other.

Not saying these are the conclusive speed results or anything like that. This is just my experience.
I still prefer the BRZ but the 86 is a close second for me.

All laps were done with no aids, ABS 0, TC 0

All cars stock.