Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

I have a feeling they're going to revert the changes in the future.

What i would do is stock up on cars that are still effective and cars that take advantage of the PP change, so if they do revert the changes there won't be too much frustration and you can sell the presumably no longer effective cars.

So my 500PP Hyundai Tuscani theoretically should beat a 441PP (previously 500PP) Skyline GTS-t? And it is on par with a 500PP Elise 111R? I can see the reason for redoing the PP, because yeah there where some definite outliers, but the only things I see changed are FR cars.

A 500PP FF car can't compete with anything nearly in its range. It's not that they changed it, its that they WAAAY overcompensated, and seemingly only in FR cars, in my opinion.

If anything I think this update is no more than a feeler going out by PD, and they'll scale it back, and improve it. [hopefully] They have made it so that lower power FR cars are now king of the 400 to 500 PP race it seems, things don't seem to have evened out so much as flip-flopped at the moment.

The problem with it is that so many of our MR, FF, and 4WD cars are now obsolete if we take a stroll in a 475PP room, regardless of the intention of the PP system change.

I've been using my 2011 brian vickers nascar in 500-600pp rooms and just dominate every race, I feel like I'm using the 2J. I'm using the Indy set up from the oval tunery with a few changes to the lsd, I raced in a 600pp room at 593pp (which is the most you can get out of it) against nsx's, honda wieder, nsx prototype and no one could beat me. Nascar is the new troll car.

All Nascars dropped 62pp after the update.

Milouse

Wild Cobra Z28, do you work with a given "acceptable" state for Standard cars (ie 0 to 300 km range with or without oil change)? (which is not easy when it comes to Standard cars, i have a real problem here to rebuild the Standard PP base)

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I used all the available cars I had data for. my problem is I cannot use all cars because so many have miles on them since I bought them. For now, I am assuming little error. about 200 of my entries were checked with purchases from the Online dealership, with or without oil change.

I have been collecting cars for all three online ID. I buy all cars I don't have. If I already bought a car, then come across one with <5000 km, I buy it too. If an online car comes up, I buy it too, if I don't already have that car form the online dealer.

I have found as much as a 3 PP variance in one cars, but I believe it was a mistake I made. Most the variances between my three game ID's (and some with the same car more than twice) didn't exceed 1 PP. I think I had three cars that came up by as much as 2 PP different.

At any rate, what I did will be close... except for errors I am prone to.

I just realized. I did not get through all the car searched of my ID's. I don't even know if I'm going to update it farther. I have three online ID's at 319, 381, and 926 game days. I have two other IDs I have been playing with no online features that is now at 26 and 241 days. I will pull these up and compare their 30 used cars at some point. I will end up however, starting with a fresh ID at day one, to redo my used car list.

I do have save games on my computer, every 5 days. Day 1, 6, 11, etc... to day 376. Then a gap and save files from day 806 to 926.

I did this so if ever needed, can look up an used car. If I do continue and only have a few holes in the revised PP data, I can load the file as needed for any used car in those periods.

I updated post #312. Added values for 19 cars. The following cars have no change:

Acura CL 3.2 Type-S ’01
Audi TT Coupe 1.8T quattro ’00
Fiat 500 R ’72
Fiat Coupe Turbo Plus ’00
Ford Ka ’01
Hyundai HCD6 Concept ’01
Mazda DEMIO GL-X ’99
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII GSR ’03
Nissan March G# ’99
Pagani Zonda LM Race Car
Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) ’68
Volkswagen Lupo1.4 ’02

These cars have had their Pp values reduced:

Amuse S2000 R1 ’04
Daihatsu Midget II D type ’98
Honda S2000 Type V ’03
Jaguar XKR R Performance ’02
Mazda Carol 360 Deluxe ’62
Mercedes-Benz CL 600 ’00
Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129) ’98

I corrected the Mitsubishi PAJERO Rally Raid Car ’85. I have a reduced value, it remains the same.

Here is where I got the new data from. Game days 26 and 241:

Wild Cobra Z28

I do have save games on my computer, every 5 days. Day 1, 6, 11, etc... to day 376. Then a gap and save files from day 806 to 926.

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Impressive!

Anyone here with any sources, connections or industry experience have any idea when PD might address this ridiculous mistake? I shouldn't imagine that it would take long to rectify. Surely it's a case of punching a few of the right numbers in some code on a computer server somewhere in Fukuoka or wherever they are...?

I think I have the answer that makes the whole 2.10 PP update make sense - tires. My guess is PD did all their testing, if they actually did testing, on stock tires, meaning CS or SH. Putting 800 hp down in a 1500 kg car on RS tires and trying to race a better handling 450 hp/1150 kg car is one thing, doing it on SH tires is a completely different animal. What PD missed is that the majority of people racing online throw RS tires on everything, so that much of the grip/handling differential between the cars on stock tires is nullifed by the absurd tire choice.

I'm guessing if you went back to native tires, much of this issue would be resolved. That's something I'd like to see tested, but seeing as how the vast majority of GT5'ers in Open Lobbies probaby couldn't complete a lap in a 500PP car on SH tires, I'd say it's not likely to be thoroughly tested.

Johnnypenso

I think I have the answer that makes the whole 2.10 PP update make sense - tires. My guess is PD did all their testing, if they actually did testing, on stock tires, meaning CS or SH. Putting 800 hp down in a 1500 kg car on RS tires and trying to race a better handling 450 hp/1150 kg car is one thing, doing it on SH tires is a completely different animal. What PD missed is that the majority of people racing online throw RS tires on everything, so that much of the grip/handling differential between the cars on stock tires is nullifed by the absurd tire choice.

I'm guessing if you went back to native tires, much of this issue would be resolved. That's something I'd like to see tested, but seeing as how the vast majority of GT5'ers in Open Lobbies probaby couldn't complete a lap in a 500PP car on SH tires, I'd say it's not likely to be thoroughly tested.

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I really think this could be the case.

I just tested the Toyta Altezza at 400pp on CS on the 'Ring. With a not-very-clean lap, I got a time 20 seconds better than my previous best with a RX8. Previously I was about 1-2 seconds behind that with an Acura RSX, maybe 3 seconds back with a Focus ST170. Now this car is 23 seconds slower than the Altezza. Neither the RSX or Focus were downgraded, so they're absolutely useless now.

This update doesn't balance cars more fairly, the spread is huuuge.

@Johnnypenso - Come on. PD has access to data. Every online race, seasonal, time trial etc. is done on their servers. Why wouldn't they be monitoring that? Well... answering my own question... maybe they haven't thought to hire a few analyists.

My friends who play Battlefield say that game play is closely monitored. If one gun starts to dominate usage, they tone that one down a bit.

Lets see here. This new pp update, IMO, makes me feel like Im playing a cheesy arcade racer where you either choose a car with great handling and little speed or a car with no handling and bogus acceleration. The gap between drivetrains and car classes are in fact huge. I refuse to try and conform just for that reason. However, I do strongly believe that if the Tires were factored in the calculations then it would become much more balanced. What do you guys think? Lets hear some sound, well thought through solutions for a change.

The vast majority of the cars I tune and drive are 400-550PP cars on CS-SS tires. I'm an average driver at best and yet have had no problem totally destroying some of my personal best times with cars that have had their PP drastically reduced by 2:10.
Worse since the adjustment to PP is so unevenly applied I have FR cars that were once all pretty evenly matched time wise at a given PP now being listed as 50 or 60PP different.
The Altezza/IS200/IS300 family of cars are a prime example as they all lost 50+ PP meaning they simply destroy the previous top cars at their new level, while the cars they used to match up well against are now total duds if brought down to the same PP.

Only bright side to this whole fiasco that I've found is that PD apparently didn't think about what this would do to the seasonal events and their incentive bonus for using lower than max PP, so now you can make insane amounts of CR in a very short period of time.

I really don&#8217;t understand why some of you if not all of you can&#8217;t see how much the pp system has improved. We all will have our own opinions but how can you say that your opinion holds water until you have done the research or the testing. You really can&#8217;t until you do, I don&#8217;t think anyone of you will though. (Which is a fact?) It just frustrates me that the WHOLE GT community wanted real world physics, real world actions from their cars. Kaz and PD heard us and gave it to us to the best of their abilities with the mathematical format&#8217;s that were at their disposal.

GT 5 prologue was the test bed for GT 5 and WE were the testers for that format. All those miles in racing and tuning, adding parts seeing what works. All the de-tuning we did to get the cars faster or what some of us thought was faster. Even though the parts added to the motor mad the cars faster in a straight line it did not make the faster in handling. We knew it and dealt with it, we mad corrections in the suspension tune to compensate for the extra torque. Made great strides in the suspension area of tuning, that&#8217;s why GTP has some of if not the best VR tuner&#8217;s around, which in turn unveiled some of the best VR driver though out the GT 5 and GT Planet community worldwide.

Yes we have the right to tune our VR cars any way we like to get the best performance. I strongly believe, no I know that Kaz and PD has been monitoring what we have been doing to the cars to achieve a pacific performance point number. If you don&#8217;t think so look at the TT events and race events. Do you really think they don&#8217;t record those time and video? They have mass servers to log so much information and data. Within two or three years they have collected data from us and data from REAL WORLD RACING and testing road cars. We had improvements in tire wear and handling, improvement in fuel and aero. Now we have a major improvement in the whole performance points system and only a few of us are taking the true advantage of the changes. Not adding everything to the motor to get the highest torque rating at a tuned rate or the best torque to weight rating. To get the best TRUE performance out of every car in our stable and drive the crap out of them to see how they performed to the real world cars.

I see people that are still puzzled on how to re-tune their whole garage or their favorite pp class due to the changes. Their garage is all over the place and they&#8217;re trying to make changes and not really getting anywhere. Yes some have started re-tuning cars and testing and still haven&#8217;t gotten any where besides for a few cars that really don&#8217;t fit as well very hard to handle, beside one or two small cars that we have noticed that perform as good if not better than any car within a de-tuned class. The testing will continue to find the best de-tuned car to match or beat the current ringer cars. I find this funny though, beating the best car. I thought GT has involved in beating the best driver or becoming the best driver or besting your skills as a driver. (NOT A CAR, we&#8217;re not trying to beat Christian or KIT from Night Rider)

If we happen to get an update that removes the power limiter so it forces the users that add all the parts to the motor to get the best out of the car at a de-tuned state to start rethinking they way they add parts to their VR cars. What will you do? Complain and cry &#8220;WE WANT THE OLD PP SYSTEM BACK!!!&#8221; more than likely. (Due to the history, I&#8217;m going on fact) I myself would rather break the norm to see what is being offered not forced. So here is your chance to try something new instead of being forced to try something. Remember we don&#8217;t own the right to GT 5 Kaz Yamauchi does and it&#8217;s offered to us on the Sony Play Stations. He has heard us and given us what we asked for and things we haven&#8217;t asked for.

I see if we or a few of we keep going down this path (Cheating the PP system) the power limiter will be removed and some of you will be forced to rethink what you add to the cars as a whole. Or move on to a different platform. So here is your chance to try something new to better the competition, because to tell you the truth the competition has gotten really dull. The only competitions we really have are the TOP 1000 drivers in each rejoin and I myself was 709. And a 1000 is not a lot knowing how many people are on GT 5&#8230; I&#8217;m not knocking anyone&#8217;s driving skills I&#8217;m just stating a fact and maybe it&#8217;s due to the way some of you tune your cars. And you&#8217;re having a hard time coming to grips with the car and it&#8217;s not helping your driving. Who knows, it&#8217;s up to you to find out.

Last enter for this thread..

Zuel

If we happen to get an update that removes the power limiter so it forces the users that add all the parts to the motor to get the best out of the car at a de-tuned state..

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Well, in my subjective opinion, Power Limiter - in the current form - is the single greatest *evil* of GT5's tuning, and thus the main foundation of complete PP chaos.

IMO Power Limiter should be heavily de-powered into realms of maximum 10% de-tuning, in order to compensate for oil-change and nothing more.

However, it will never be done probably, so I should just have to be happy that NOS from GT4 have never made an appearance in GT5, because then the chaos would be complete.

It doesn't take very long to see the various examples of how they screwed it up. It's not a matter of opinion, assuming that everyone involved in the discussion is concerned with fair and close racing.

PD needed a small screwdriver. Instead, they used a club hammer.

Kaz needs to realise that Gran Turismo is bigger than him. And if he doesn't agree, then there's only one word to say: Forza.

Zuel

I really don’t understand why some of you if not all of you can’t see how much the pp system has improved.
BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah etc,

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At 425pp this is just a few
Spoon integra 225hp FF
Merc 190 e evoII 361hp FR
Volvo c30 r design 215hp FF
Toy soarer 2.5 gt 367hp FR
Toy mr2 spyder 192hp MR
Ruf 3400 322hp RR

I didn’t bother to put the weights because I’m a little too lazy- but if you don’t see a problem here then you are blind.

There are many more WAY overpowered cars - do you even play the game?
Do you race online?

99% of the cars in gt are probably better balanced PP wise due to the new update. the only problem i have is for the 1% that is left over, if PD fix these cars up asap then we will be back to happy days in the world of GT5 but until this happens then we are going to have a lot of people complaining and thats fair enough. the thing that really annoys me is (and I've mentioned this before) that if you fully tune a TVR speed 12 except the stage 3 engine mod you will have 600pp with full downforce, when you add the stage 3 engine tune the PP drops to 599pp,1047bhp, 1025kg. Where it gets interesting is if you use the power limiter the PP will rise as you reduce the BHP up to a max of 602pp then fall again to for example 846bhp@599pp and beyond. This is a major flaw IMHO, now if tyre selection was factored into the PP algorithm then this would make sense as on CS tyre for example the car would be very difficult to drive and more than likely slower than at a lower bhp but the fact that you can use RS tyres without any PP change flaws the system. All i hope for is that this is the start of a whole PP reform that will after further updates take into account tyre choice when calculating PP. until then i think people are within there rights to scrutinise and complain about how this update has affected there cars PP.

amar212

Well, in my subjective opinion, Power Limiter - in the current form - is the single greatest *evil* of GT5's tuning, and thus the main foundation of complete PP chaos.

IMO Power Limiter should be heavily de-powered into realms of maximum 10% de-tuning, in order to compensate for oil-change and nothing more.

However, it will never be done probably, so I should just have to be happy that NOS from GT4 have never made an appearance in GT5, because then the chaos would be complete.

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I agree with you Amar.

Chrunch Houston

At 425pp this is just a few
Spoon integra 225hp FF
Merc 190 e evoII 361hp FR
Volvo c30 r design 215hp FF
Toy soarer 2.5 gt 367hp FR
Toy mr2 spyder 192hp MR
Ruf 3400 322hp RR

I didn&#8217;t bother to put the weights because I&#8217;m a little too lazy- but if you don&#8217;t see a problem here then you are blind.

There are many more WAY overpowered cars - do you even play the game?
Do you race online?

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1 question, what motor mod and parts you have on the motor? Not the car the motor. If you have anything over a stage two then your comment doesn't hold any weight. And you have done nothing to see any change.

Do I play or race on-line. I'm GTP Striker look for me.

When PP was introduced, tyres made a difference to the value. This did produce some very interesting racing and car variety, and while not always the closest, and being early days, it was worth keeping IMO. An Aston on SS shoes taking on an Elise on SH, round Monaco...great stuff.

In practice, I wouldn't really like this to be the case with most of the racing I do, but it would be good to have the option of accounting for tyres in PP value, particularly for fun public lobby racing. Not being a bunch of control-freaks, many people still want more options in the game.

But first things first...

Cyber_stig_77

99% of the cars in gt are probably better balanced PP wise due to the new update. the only problem i have is for the 1% that is left over, if PD fix these cars up asap then we will be back to happy days in the world of GT5 but until this happens then we are going to have a lot of people complaining and thats fair enough. the thing that really annoys me is (and I've mentioned this before) that if you fully tune a TVR speed 12 except the stage 3 engine mod you will have 600pp with full downforce, when you add the stage 3 engine tune the PP drops to 599pp,1047bhp, 1025kg. Where it gets interesting is if you use the power limiter the PP will rise as you reduce the BHP up to a max of 602pp then fall again to for example 846bhp@599pp and beyond. This is a major flaw IMHO, now if tyre selection was factored into the PP algorithm then this would make sense as on CS tyre for example the car would be very difficult to drive and more than likely slower than at a lower bhp but the fact that you can use RS tyres without any PP change flaws the system. All i hope for is that this is the start of a whole PP reform that will after further updates take into account tyre choice when calculating PP. until then i think people are within there rights to scrutinise and complain about how this update has affected there cars PP.

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Look at the highlighted COMMENT.

I really shouldn't have to stress this any further.

@Zuel: Could you please explain what exactly you are talking about? I don't get your theory.

Even when using the limiter it still matters what parts you are using for tuning. I personally think the exhausts have a much bigger influence than stage 3 engine though and not only because of the bigger change to red line.

Whatever performance differences you can find by using the right parts and the right amount of limiter though, they are negligible compared to the imbalances introduced with 2.10.

@Zuel your crazy saying that someone who uses a stage 3 engine upgrade doesn't have a valid opinion on the issue.
The fact is if you actually took the time to really drive and test more of the cars, both those whose PP was changed in 2:10 and those that weren't you would see the flaws.
The 400PP Compact car seasonal is a perfect example of how messed up it is currently. Prior to the update you would have had to severely limit a stock BMW Z4 just to get in and would have to drive it near its limits with that much power limiting/extra weight just to win. Now an average driver such as myself can easily win all those races and earn a hefty bonus using a Z4 with no PP upgrades. That doesn't even begin to touch on some of the classics you can use for that seasonal now to earn huge CR because they are so far under the PP limit. The top rabbit cars for that seasonal are all FFs but the entry restriction is solely based on car length. If the new PP was so fair why don't they have some of the updated FRs in the mix as rabbits?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and to play the game the way they enjoy it.

Someone that uses all the drivers aids, fully upgrades his/her cars with all available parts and only runs on race soft tires with no tire wear, is just as valid as the guy who uses no aids, bare minimum of tuning parts and stock grade tires.

So yes your entitled to your opinions and to enjoy the game as you see fit. But don't go telling people their wrong or that their opinion doesn't count because they don't do things exactly the way you do them.

Zuel

I agree with you Amar.



1 question, what motor mod and parts you have on the motor? Not the car the motor. If you have anything over a stage two then your comment doesn't hold any weight. And you have done nothing to see any change.

Do I play or race on-line. I'm GTP Striker look for me.

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Wut?

These cars are all tuned...

I have to admit I have been going back and forth from some engine limiter to a lot of limiter. To minimal engine limiter and now back to engine limit to were peak torque matches peak HP - so... Like I said I'm a little too lazy to tell you the exact stats. They are all 425pp. Everything changes. - always.

What I posted was the current HP of the cars listed- as you can see the bolded HPs are MUCH for the FR cars (and the ruf 3400) are MUCH higher than the other cars - that is my point.

Those cars are rockets now - very unfair

From what I found from my math work to break down the pp system, coming across the pp grouping system and testing I found the the lower pp cars need the stage three motor mod more than the upper pp cars. The upper only need a stage 1 to a stage 2 motor, stage to 2 turbo pending on car to get in it's optimal performance range pending on car.

Every race I entered since the update I have out raced and out performed every driver and their car with a balance set and car that is stepped tuned for it's class. (Following the PP grouping system.) The only driver's that out performed my car and out raced me where there drivers in the RINGER cars as they are becoming to be known as. I'm not going to explain which classes need which motor mods to perform the best.

Yes XD the exhaust parts does make BIG difference. To find out where besides using a full race exhaust you all must to the testing if you're up to it.

Chrunch Houston

Wut?

These cars are all tuned...

I have to admit I have been going back and forth from some engine limiter to a lot of limiter. To minimal engine limiter and now back to engine limit to were peak torque matches peak HP - so... Like I said I'm a little too lazy to tell you the exact stats. They are all 425pp. Everything changes. - always.

What I posted was the current HP of the cars listed- as you can see the bolded HPs are MUCH for the FR cars (and the ruf 3400) are MUCH higher than the other cars - that is my point.

Those cars are rockets now - very unfair

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So in meaning all tuned "Stage 3 motor"

XDesperado67

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and to play the game the way they enjoy it.

So yes your entitled to your opinions and to enjoy the game as you see fit. But don't go telling people their wrong or that their opinion doesn't count because they don't do things exactly the way you do them.

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Yes everyone is entitled to their opinions and to play the game as they see fit. Though if I say you're wrong for not trying then you're wrong for not right correct? Because you didn't try. (Correct) And if I say your opinion doesn't hold water unless you have done the testing and have a valued argument then your comment doesn't hold water.

So until you can come up with your results and finding you can stay pissed. My finding are all complied in the GT 5 Performance Points chart. And all you have to do it step tune the motors and break in the car to see my finding are dang close to 100 % accurate. Every car will fall in line with it's proper class as LONG you tune the motor correctly. If not your whole garage and tuning with be out of balance.

Zuel

So in meaning all tuned "Stage 3 motor"

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Doesn't matter, if they all had minimal tuning to meet a lower PP number the highlighted cars would still have a major advantage. The relative difference in power stays the same for a set of cars at any given PP value that they can attain. So when PD made such major adjustments to the PP of only a relatively few cars they messed up the entire purpose of the system.
Before if I had Car A at a given PP as stock and wanted to tune Car B which had a lower stock PP value up to a competitive level with car A, I could get fairly close most times. That was because the PP was figured using the same formula for all cars regardless of drivetrain. Now you have cars that clearly don't use the same basic formula that most of the cars in game do. This makes them much faster than other cars in a given PP range regardless of tuning parts and tire selection.

Oh and your chart only seems to make sense to you as no one else on GTP seems to be able to make any sense out of what it even shows.
As for testing, I do plenty of that as I run a garage in the tuning forum and stay very involved in a lot of competitions for both online racing and offline time trials. Doesn't take much testing to see there is a problem with the system when you have three cars all tuned to the same specs (300hp under 3liter engine on SH tires with no PP or weight restriction) that prior to 2:10 all had 480PP and ran within a second of each other over a 4.1 mile custom Touge track. Now of those three cars one of them dropped to 413PP while the other two went to 468 and 467PP. (All three are FRs that got some adjustment to their PP.) They still run the same times and luckily the PP doesn't matter for the event I was tuning them for, but if it was a PP based event or online lobby there would be serious issues.

XDesperado67

Doesn't matter, if they all had minimal tuning to meet a lower PP number the highlighted cars would still have a major advantage. The relative difference in power stays the same for a set of cars at any given PP value that they can attain. So when PD made such major adjustments to the PP of only a relatively few cars they messed up the entire purpose of the system.
Before if I had Car A at a given PP as stock and wanted to tune Car B which had a lower stock PP value up to a competitive level with car A, I could get fairly close most times. That was because the PP was figured using the same formula for all cars regardless of drivetrain. Now you have cars that clearly don't use the same basic formula that most of the cars in game do. This makes them much faster than other cars in a given PP range regardless of tuning parts and tire selection.

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This highlighted comment just proves that you're unwilling to try and see. DO you really know that the highlighted cars will still perform as they do now? No you don't because you didn't bother to try along with others.

I DO..

Cyber_stig_77

the thing that really annoys me is (and I've mentioned this before) that if you fully tune a TVR speed 12 except the stage 3 engine mod you will have 600pp with full downforce, when you add the stage 3 engine tune the PP drops to 599pp,1047bhp, 1025kg. Where it gets interesting is if you use the power limiter the PP will rise as you reduce the BHP up to a max of 602pp then fall again to for example 846bhp@599pp and beyond.

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I never touched the Speed 12 or worked on any other car with such "non-linear" PP results for added weight or power. Is this new in 2.10 or was it always like that?

Z1-AV69

I never touched the Speed 12 or worked on any other car with such "non-linear" PP results for added weight or power. Is this new in 2.10 or was it always like that?

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There is another car that does that. The Gillet Vertigo comes to mind. I know it did that before 2.10. I just did a quick check. I have one that peaks at 656PP at 865 HP. Higher or lower that 865 HP lowers the PP. I wonder why they do this?

Why do people get concerned about the lower PP? It don't change the car. You can have more power and downforce in PP limited races.

Zuel

This highlighted comment just proves that you're unwilling to try and see. DO you really know that the highlighted cars will still perform as they do now? No you don't because you didn't bother to try along with others.

I DO..

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Sorry but that comment just proved you haven't done any responsible testing. If you've actually done any testing and/or raced in the various affected cars it has only been in an attempt to support your pet theories and not an objective test of the true performance potentials of various cars.

I'm done arguing with you so will just agree to disagree about the 2:10 update and it's merits/flaws.

the thing that really annoys me is (and I've mentioned this before) that if you fully tune a TVR speed 12 except the stage 3 engine mod you will have 600pp with full downforce, when you add the stage 3 engine tune the PP drops to 599pp,1047bhp, 1025kg. Where it gets interesting is if you use the power limiter the PP will rise as you reduce the BHP up to a max of 602pp then fall again to for example 846bhp@599pp and beyond.

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Pretty much the same story with the Aston Martin V8 Vantage.....cant remember the exact figures, but its got 50-60pp more without weight reduction compared to weight reduction level 3.....all with max tuned power.

This fall in pp despite the wieght reduction was the same before v2.10, what has changed is the general level where this is happening, it's now way too low. If you tune everything up, the car has over 700hp and ways less than 1500kg @ 501pp.....unbeatable if theres anything like a straight thats longer than 700m (before the update you at least had to drive the thing well, which isn't to hard, once you tuned it a bit). I hit 380 km/h at le mans, without a tune that took me longer than 1.5 min. monza without straights 340km/h....