GT5 Drifting physics flawed?
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Stavingo
It does. A friend of mine has a '96 Nissan 240 with about 245HP (dont ask me about the modifications on the car because I really didnt pay attention to his words... I just wanted to drift). And I did. I never thought I could have so much fun in a low HP car.
When I tried to do the same thing with a low HP car in GT5, it was a complete fail. The revs never got high enough, the car would tend to straighten out a quarter of the way through the corner and just felt awful. There is a BIG difference between real life and GT5. In real life, you have all these "hints" as to when to brake, accelerate, countersteer; G-Forces and the good old "hunch" you get. While as in GT5, you only have visual cues. There's the apex, handbrake, turn in, tap the brakes, accelerate, countersteer, etc.
In the end, GT5 IS A GAME (Simulator)... you can take it as seriously as you want, but GT cant recreate those feelings; unless you have a deep pocket and are willing to spend some serious money for an advanced playseat.
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Scaff
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On that point I can't agree at all, GT5's tyre model flaws are rather obvious and it certainly doesn't work well with them at all, I would go so far as to say that its starting to hold the series back as a whole. I for one will not be buying GT6 if they don't make a serious change in this area and I know for a fact I'm not the only one.
Why should I be limited to those two choices (one of which is not even true - GT5's simple tyre model does not work almost perfectly)?
I would rather have a complex model that works and works well, its not that its impossible, it has after all been done by many other developers (and as I have shown as far back as the PS2)
Amazing is one of the last words I would use for GT5's tyre model, I would however agree that it has room for improvement, and a lot of it. However adding a few more parameters to the existing model is not going to lead to any significant changes and that you think it would makes me suspect that you don't really understand what is involved in creating a solid tyre model.
So because other people haven't got it right then its not worth trying?
What about all the sims (on any platform) that have done it better than PD, often with less resources?
You are once again attempting to say that the only two routes are a simple model that sort of works or a complex model that doesn't work, which is patently absurd.
Your one of the few; given that they have put almost no work into it since GT4, I have very little confidence at all.
I can fault it rather a lot and have done:
For a model that does things well please explain why the RUF's don't act as a car of its design should (which should be chronic power-on understeer - not chronic power-on oversteer - tyre width issues) or a Mini Cooper can have the same lat-g as a 'vette on the same tyre compound (once again tyre width not being accounted for) or the lack of torque steer from a standing start (tyre deformation and static/low speed load distribution issues with the 'magic' model) or that changes in tyre compound simply increase the lat grip by a set amount (with the only variable per car being the starting point).
I for one don't class that as a tyre model that is doing things well, unless you want to use GT5 rather than reality as a benchmark.
I love the GT series with a passion (as my posting and testing history here will show), however with GT5 they have seriously dropped the ball and I don't for a second think that being apologetic for them is the answer.
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Zer0
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But that is your opinion like many of the things that you put on fact based on your particular vision of the things. There are others that think the oposite and in that regards GTWelsh's post sums perfectly why GT5 have reached a respect in the community over other games. Physics limitations aside.
Good for some, bad for others.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7806071#post7806071
Scaff
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But that is your opinion like many of the things that you put on fact based on your particular vision of the things. There are others that think the oposite and in that regards GTWelsh's post sums perfectly why GT5 have reached a respect in the community over other games. Physics limitations aside.
Good for some, bad for others.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7806071#post7806071
What is the handling balance of an RUF (rwd not 4wd) in GT5 under throttle as you exceed the limits of grip?
Its oversteer.
What should a rear engined, rear wheel drive car do in the real world under throttle as you exceed the limits of grip?
The answer to that is understeer (you get the snap oversteer when you back off the throttle suddenly), and it has nothing to do with my opinion and rather a lot to do with physics (and its not a vision its based on actually having driven RR cars and understanding how vehicle dynamics work). However feel free to let me know why that's not the case, ensure you explain exactly what is happening to the car dynamically as you do.
The reason behind this is predominantly an issue with the tyre model not correctly accounting for differing tyre widths, as a result the RR's do not loos the front end first (under throttle) as they should do, but rather the back goes first. You will also notice (but have ignored) that I focused on this one issue with the RR cars, as that's the key issue caused by the tyre model. I've not come close to condemning the entire game or said that every part of the RR dynamics are wrong, so please do imply that. How about instead you actually focus on the issue being discussed rather than rushing in (once again) to defend what you clearly prefer to ignore and/or don't fully understand.
I want GT6 to not have these issues and to be the best sim it can, sticking your fingers in your ears or making excuses for limitations that exist is not going to see that happen.
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DarkAvengerZR1
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I think you can understeer a RUF in GT5... you just have to be smooth to not power slide it.
Which means lose grip by power, not by speed.
Which means lose grip by power, not by speed.
Scaff
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The rear load on a 911 design is all to the rear, the front tyres carry a tiny amount of load and are also a much smaller width. Under acceleration the load will move to the back and will result in bags of grip in the rear, however the narrow front tyres will have a smaller percentage of the load and have a much smaller contact patch. They will (under power) be the first to go in almost all circumstances, something that GT5 doesn't model well at all, with most attributing this to issues with tyre widths not being represented correctly. As a result the grip differential between the front and the rear is not as great as it should be and the torque from the driven wheels being able to overcome the rear tyres far to easily. Power oversteer on a RR requires far more abuse in reality than it does in GT5, snap oversteer from a throttle lift is the real 'trait' of these layouts.
The testing that has been done which shows cars with wildly differing set-ups and designs having he exact same lat g figures on the same compounds further supports this.
I don't have an issue with those who prefer GT5's tyre model, but I do have an issue with them ignoring the results of a large amount of testing and how real world dynamics work. That should after all always be the benchmark for a sim.
DarkAvengerZR1
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I am not saying you are wrong, but either in real you can still be able ot oversteer a 911, by smashing the throttle and wheel spin. In GT5 you can understeer a 911 too. Harder than it should? Yes, but it still possible.
It oversteers very easily as well.
It oversteers very easily as well.
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Scaff
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A video of "Sideways Stephan", the RUF test drivers who is well know for his love of getting Ruf product as sideways as possible as often as possible doesn't really change this, particularly as I've not said you can't get a 911/RR to oversteer.
What I have said quite clearly is that the initial balance of a 911 to power-on is going to be understeer (and depending on the exact model it can be rather heavy), the initial balance of an Ruf in GT5 is oversteer. Some may be fine with that - I'm not.
What I have said quite clearly is that the initial balance of a 911 to power-on is going to be understeer (and depending on the exact model it can be rather heavy), the initial balance of an Ruf in GT5 is oversteer. Some may be fine with that - I'm not.
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Scaff
Wait so you are saying the RUF 911 cars on acceleration will not oversteer or won't understeer? Or have a controlled drift? Confused will you explain what you were meaning thanks.
Just saying when i tried to duplicate this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Thomd4BQg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
On my G27 with comfort softs and then with sports hard tires the steering and working the wheel because of what the car was doing was almost identical to that video.
Maybe I am not understanding what you mean though
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DarkAvengerZR1
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Hmmm, i see your point Scaff, i think.
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I'm pretty sure "Porsche 911s understeer on throttle application" isn't something covered under "from a certain point of view." I also think it has more to do with how "when you accelerate in a 911 the overwhelming majority of the weight is on the rear wheels" than it has to do with Scaff attempting to force his "particular vision on things."
Scaff
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On an increasing throttle as speed increases a 911/RR will initially be neutral and as the speed builds will understeer, it will keep understeering until you either unload the steering and/or back off the throttle. If you pick the second of those two options you will get a shift of load to the front of the car and then snap-oversteer, while this can then be controlled with the throttle (if your good enough), its not caused by the application of the throttle but by its release. Which is exactly what Stephan does in that video, he's not simply entering a corner and throwing the throttle down (which is what you can do in GT5).
In a previous post in this thread I gave a link that shows a source (the Porsche Driving schools handbook) which describes this in detail, of course Porsche could be wrong about how RR cars behave.
Oh and....
Source - http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/62695/porsche_911_carrera_2.htmlEvo
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This coming from the person who still can't answer with his apparent "facts and logic"?
Scaff is discussing relatively simple physics. RR cars do not react realistically in GT5 under throttle. I'm really not sure why PD has chosen this approach (though admittedly, RR's make up such a tiny percent of the car roster, I could understand it being a lower priority than focusing on how "right" other drivetrains are), but it's not representative of the real world in its current form.
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