GT5 Drifting physics flawed?

[eddyac]

I don't really see a proplem with GT5 physics , they are good I like them they are not perfect but It's a game... If I want it realistic I drive\Drift a real car 👍

 

[Gonales]

It is unreal, and since GT5 is supposed to be a simulator, it is horrible.

It may be fun, and the best we can get in a PS3, but it is far from reality.

I play with a DS3, but come on, it is common logic that physics in GT5 are unreal, and it gets worse when it is about drift!

You want a simple example? Look how many real life drifters are able to do a reverse entry and now look at how many videogame players do that in GT5.

You want to tell us, wheel drifters and some of us real life drifters, that what you say is true. However, you have no wheel drifting nor real life drifting experience... Tell me again how wrong we are?

Like I said before, it's a game. And I don't care if the physics stay the same like they are now.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

You want to tell us, wheel drifters and some of us real life drifters, that what you say is true. However, you have no wheel drifting nor real life drifting experience... Tell me again how wrong we are?

Like I said before, it's a game. And I don't care if the physics stay the same like they are now.

Yes, you know everything, real drifter.

/end with this subject.

 

[Gonales]

Wasn't it you that claimed to know all, just from hearing other people their opinions?

 

[Scaff]

As I said before, you want more realism? Get rid of the heaps of awful drivers on GT5, before changing anything...

How exactly would changing the target audience and therefore players of GT make it more or less realistic?

That doesn't make a bit of sense at all.

Because, believe it or not, even PD works on a budget. And I doubt, when they won't be able to do something for GT5, they actually manage to pull it off for GT6, PLUS give us more tracks and stuff. This would mean a double increase in workforces really. (If you get what I mean.)

Yes PD does work to a budget, and at an estimated $60 million for GT5 (just for the core game - not any of the DLC or patches), which makes it one of the single largest game development budgets ever. Certainly more than the vast majority of sims (on any platform), so why they had a budget, everything does, I don;t think you will find that was the root of the problem at all.

I know, very few people do have access to a lot of different cars, and high speed track racing / drifting. Thing is, you can improve the game all you want, but in the end it's not the game that makes me come back, it's an awesome community.

For example, Decoy, Lock2Lock, Blueninja, Marbel, ... All these guys are great people, and know how to handle a car. If they weren't there, I wouldn't play GT5.

And as such that automatically applies to every customer of the GT series?

Odd to think that the game has been around for so long, gaining customers based on its ambitions to be a sim (even using it as its strap line), that GT Planet has been here so long and its actually all down to the relatively young (and from a moderation point of view - often problematic) drifting sub-forum.

Improve the player base, improve the game. (Much more than physics would.) I accept that GT5 doesn't have perfect physics, and I don't mind because the drifting, believe it or not, is ****ing awesome nonetheless.

GT needs work in a lot of areas, however if it wants to keep pace with the rest of the sim market (which goes way beyond the drifting scene) it needs to work on its physics.

That GT5 is only now at this kind of level in terms of suspension modeling, and still behind in terms of tyre model....



...is a rather clear sign that it needs to do more than boost the car and track count, and keep adding new options (given the above came out in 2005 on the PS2).

It needs to go back to what made the series in the first place, pushing realistic physics with real world cars to its limit on consoles.

 

[Lock2Lock]

It is unreal, and since GT5 is supposed to be a simulator, it is horrible.

It may be fun, and the best we can get in a PS3, but it is far from reality.

I play with a DS3, but come on, it is common logic that physics in GT5 are unreal, and it gets worse when it is about wheel!

You want a simple example? Look how many real life drifters are able to do a reverse entry and now look at how many videogame players do that in GT5.

Huuuummm please explain how it is worse on a wheel vs the controller? Hahahaha don't see logic in that. Simple answer to that too go drive down a straightaway cut your joystick all the way over then watch me on a wheel do it and you will instantly see what I am talking about. Which one is more of a simulation way of playing? On a wheel. The physics of pure driving ability is limited on a controller. For example go try and drift the cape ring with more than I would say 60 plus degrees of angle on and try to hold that or be as smooth as possible doing so. You can't do it. But i get on a wheel and you can. Reason is because you can turn your wheels all the way over.

GT5 was meant to be played on a wheel (at least designed for it just like any proper sim). On a controller you do not have that full ability as you do in real life. If you can't understand that then I don't know how else to explain it to you. I don't know if you have ever played on a wheel as in DFGT, G25, G27, Fanatec, or Thrustmaster if you haven't then you won't know what i am talking about.

Never said as realistic as real life BUT it is close. Tire model yes like Scaff has said needs a serious overhaul. Many other things too.


Also the point about the reverse entries. Ok what's your point? Just because real life drifters don't do it doesn't mean they can't. In fact have you seen the new D1 section on Suzuka circuit? Well most of them come in 90 degrees plus into it to hit that high speed corner. But most of the time the amateurs or pro drifters won't do it because in all honesty it isn't something that is nessasary. And in a tandem it is definitely not nessasary 99% of the time that's one of those "tandem logic" things Gonales was talking about hahaha. So i fail to see your point there.

 

[DWorks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q06TR0-RJo
Go chek it out!

 

[Gonales]

It needs to go back to what made the series in the first place, pushing realistic physics with real world cars to its limit on consoles.

Your opinion, not mine. How will better physics improve your gaming experience if 13y olds are ramming you off the track?

Plus the fact that a lot of the DLC, and things like that are always about the racing, because racing is the thing that's done by the major part of their clients. If they really want to improve the drifting in the game, THAT is the thing that needs to change.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

GT5 was meant to play with a DS3, because it is a console game... they know not everyone who has a console normally buys a wheel.

Edit: Try to play a computer simulator with a DualShock and see the differences.

 

[DWorks]

DKZR1 ... She's right on for this!

 

[Lock2Lock]

GT5 was meant to play with a DS3, because it is a console game... they know not everyone who has a console normally buys a wheel.

Edit: Try to play a computer simulator with a DualShock and see the differences.

What? So the DFGT being made wasn't made to be played on GT5 because it is a console game? Wrong just wrong. The DFGT and Thrustmaster was made for GT5 hahaha "laughs and points to the huge hint of the GT logo on the middle of the steering wheel". Just please go research why the DFGT and Thrustmaster was made please.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Never said you can't use, but it is still a console game, it HAS to be able to be played with a controller! Is it really hard to understand?

Why it has to be able to be played with a controller? Because it is a console game.

 

[Scaff]

Your opinion, not mine. How will better physics improve your gaming experience if 13y olds are ramming you off the track?

So because you play with idiots no point exists in improving the physics of the game?

Sorry but that is one of the single most ridiculous arguments I have ever come across.

The issue lies with who you are playing GT5 with and nothing else, which is also a bit odd because you were banging on about how great the people who play are. So which is it?

Plus the fact that a lot of the DLC, and things like that are always about the racing, because racing is the thing that's done by the major part of their clients. If they really want to improve the drifting in the game, THAT is the thing that needs to change.

I can assure you (and moderating these boards give ample opportunity to see this) that the changes to the physics that 2.0, 2.09 and 2.10 brought to GT5 were far more well received and appreciated than any car or track pack.

I can also say quite confidently that the number of people who want GT to keep pushing the physics far outweighs those who don't.

 

[Lock2Lock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q06TR0-RJo
Go chek it out!

Beautiful drifting my friend. And hahahahahahaha i signed on in your video hahaha.

Never said you can't use, but it is still a console game, it HAS to be able to be played with a controller! Is it really hard to understand?

Why it has to be played with a controller? Because it is a console game.

Yeah i understand. Same thing goes for PC. But what I am getting at is which one is being played basically realistically. Which is a wheel. Think about it look at the big picture and I am not trying to be funny by saying that.

A car can be driven with a controller too. Does it give you a better feel for the car? No.

Also Gonales I know what you mean by crappie drivers but there really isn't a logical way to improve that hahaha. Just like people younger than 17 playing COD and BF3 they still get by with it.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Yeah i understand. Same thing goes for PC. But what I am getting at is which one is being played basically realistically. Which is a wheel. Think about it look at the big picture and I am not trying to be funny by saying that.

Yes, wheels is better than controller, but you, and anyone else knows, that it still unreal, and way behind of computer simulators. A game, that calls itself a simulator, had a lot of money and time put into it, being worse as a simulator than way smaller computer simulators?

 

[Lock2Lock]

Yes, wheels is better than controller, but you, and anyone else knows, that it still unreal, and way behind of computer simulators. A game, that calls itself a simulator, had a lot of money and time put into it, being worse as a simulator than way smaller computer simulators?

The thing is I am not comparing a computer simulator to GT5. Even though each one is unique in the line of physics.

No one said any were perfect. But GT5 is close.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Well, it have been said in this thread, tyre deformation is substantially important to drifting. Once GT5 physics fails right in that subject, drifting physics is really affected by that, way less than actually racing.

I think this says it all.

Edit: This doesn't matter if you play with a wheel or controller.

 

[G.T.Ace]

GT5 was meant to play with a DS3, because it is a console game... they know not everyone who has a console normally buys a wheel.

Edit: Try to play a computer simulator with a DualShock and see the differences.

I play all PC sims with a DS3 and if the game has proper control options, I'm quicker than a lot of guys with wheels (not saying I'm a good driver though). When you use the right settings in GT5, you can bring it pretty close to a PC simulation like rFactor (not on par, but close).

A game, that calls itself a simulator, had a lot of money and time put into it, being worse as a simulator than way smaller computer simulators?

That's unfair, there's so much stuff to consider.
Guys like Kunos have a lot less things to work on.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

I play all PC sims with a DS3 and if the game has proper control options, I'm quicker than a lot of guys with wheels (not saying I'm a good driver though). When you use the right settings in GT5, you can bring it pretty close to a PC simulation like rFactor (not on par, but close).



That's unfair, there's so much stuff to consider.
Guys like Kunos have a lot less things to work on.

Still, how old is rFactor? Also, what is a "simulator" without good physics?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, i am a Gran Turismo fan, played all of them, and it hurts me to say that, but it simply is not a simulator.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well, it have been said in this thread, tyre deformation is substantially important to drifting. Once GT5 physics fails right in that subject, drifting physics is really affected by that, way less than actually racing.

I think this says it all.

Edit: This doesn't matter if you play with a wheel or controller.

Ok I'll bite. What is exactly wrong with the tire model. I want you to explain it to me. Because from what I am gathering here you don't know what is wrong with it.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Ok I'll bite. What is exactly wrong with the tire model. I want you to explain it to me. Because from what I am gathering here you don't know what is wrong with it.

Why do you want me to explain you something that you know and also got told why/what?

GT5's tyre model is not even close to that used in LFS (or the likes of SimRaceway) and for anyone seriously interested in drifting (or any part of vehicle simulation) it should be right at the top of the list of areas that need a massive overhaul for GT6.

The current model gives almost no progression (the transition from grip to no grip is almost digital), doesn't account for tyre width (or give an option to change tyre dimensions), tyre pressure and changing 'grades' of tyre simply changes the grip multiplier used (which is why a Mini Copper can get the same lat-g figures as a 'Vette on the same tyres).

 

[Scaff]

Ok I'll bite. What is exactly wrong with the tire model. I want you to explain it to me. Because from what I am gathering here you don't know what is wrong with it.

GT5's tyre model?

I've already linked to info on this, but here we go:

• Changes in tyre grade act as a grip multiplier nothing more
• Almost digital transition from grip to slip, indicates the use of basic 'magic' curves, with little or no cross referencing when load changes
• Tyre width isn't accounted for (as can be see with a Mini Cooper and a 'Vette having the same lat-g figure on the same compound)
• Tyre pressures are not modeled
• No options to change width, profile or pressure
• Tyre deformation is not modeled

In short, rather a lot

 

[Lock2Lock]

Why do you want me to explain you something that you know and also got told why/what?

No because i already knew that. Didn't get told that (maybe in better wording).


But anyway it still is the feeling factor that comes into it. As in feeling of weight transfer and grip which you cannot feel on a controller. Nuff said.

GT5's tyre model?

I've already linked to info on this, but here we go:


[*]Changes in tyre grade act as a grip multiplier nothing more
[*]Almost digital transition from grip to slip, indicates the use of basic 'magic' curves, with little or no cross referencing when load changes
[*]Tyre width isn't accounted for (as can be see with a Mini Cooper and a 'Vette having the same lat-g figure on the same compound)
[*]Tyre pressures are not modeled
[*]No options to change width, profile or pressure
[*]Tyre deformation is not modeled


In short, rather a lot

Scaff I know we have been through this before. I agree with you completely on the faults with the tire model. And no in that post you just quoted me on it didn't say nothing was perfect. I was simply asking her did she know what the problems were like you and I have seen and discovered through playing.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Still, how old is rFactor? Also, what is a "simulator" without good physics?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, i am a Gran Turismo fan, played all of them, and it hurts me to say that, but it simply is not a simulator.

rFactor is from 2005, but that was a time when console games were generally far from PC games (Enthusia, as shown above, was definitely the closest, but also flawed).

What makes a simulator to you? Of course it is one, just like Forza 4.
The physics engine has flaws, but it's not too far from PC simulations and even PC sims have issues in their physics engines. iRacing is extremely awkward at low speeds, rFactor has tons of problems with contacts and lift-off oversteer, in GTR² it's way too difficult to catch a drifting/oversteering car etc. etc.

EDIT: I agree with Scaff about the tyres though.
That's something I hope they'll work on for GT6.

 

[Lock2Lock]

rFactor is from 2005, but that was a time when console games were generally far from PC games (Enthusia, as shown above, was definitely the closest, but also flawed).

What makes a simulator to you? Of course it is one, just like Forza 4.
The physics engine has flaws, but it's not too far from PC simulations and even PC sims have issues in their physics engines. iRacing is extremely arkward at low speeds, rFactor has tons of problems with contacts and lift-off oversteer, in GTR² it's way too difficult to catch a drifting/oversteering car etc. etc.

EDIT: I agree with Scaff about the tyres though.
That's something I hope they'll work on for GT6.

Great wording.

 

[SPANK]

Cant compare physics on the game in my opinion due not feeling the g forces.

And drifting on gt5 and real life are waay different.

 

[GTWelsh]

GT5 has its flaws but yano what ? It works well with them.

Would you rather have a highly complex model that didn't work in practice, or a simple one that works almost perfectly given the limited parameters being looked at?

What the rather amazing yet simple GT5 tire model gives us is epic room for improvement, all they have to do is keep the current model exactly as it is pretty much and add on some extra parameters (obviously not that simple).

I've used PC sims that have worse models, that suffer from uncatchable drifts or weird levels of grip or sudden overseer over almost every curb (the list is huge). Yet in theory these models are amazing and so complex.

It makes me really confident in GT6's tire model.

Flaws and all, GT5's tire model works really well when you consider what it has to work with (inputs and performance constraints).

Drifting isn't quite right but its very close !
Racing isn't quite right but its very close !

More than can be said for GTR Evo for example, it 'grip' races okay but you can forget drifting.

Mastering three things: grip, slip, and the transition between the two are the main points, most seem to just focus on grip while GT5 with its limited inputs does pretty dam well with all 3.

You can't fault it too much really.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

As I said before, you want more realism? Get rid of the heaps of awful drivers on GT5, before changing anything...

So the realism of GT5 is variable based just on who's in the room I'm in?

Besides, if anything, having awful drivers around, along with better ones, is realistic. I'm not surprised you're expanding your elitist view to the idea of "getting rid" of players who don't match up to one particular person's expectations, but the argument that the players involved in a person's experience with a game somehow more directly affects the realism of the simulation at hand than the physics themselves is just so completely warped I can't believe you're actually serious about it.

Because, believe it or not, even PD works on a budget. And I doubt, when they won't be able to do something for GT5, they actually manage to pull it off for GT6, PLUS give us more tracks and stuff. This would mean a double increase in workforces really. (If you get what I mean.)

I don't think you understand the point Scaff is making. Having the employees in charge of physics focus on specific aspects (say, the tire model) has no bearing on the creation of new tracks or cars; those are made by a very different team. Now, one could argue that having to hire more staff for the physics side could negatively impact the number of potential folks working on the modelling, sure, but the modelling requires a much higher number of heads than the physics. Adding one more employee to the physics team, numerically speaking, would have a larger impact than adding one to the already-much-larger pool of modellers.

Improve the player base, improve the game. (Much more than physics would.) I accept that GT5 doesn't have perfect physics, and I don't mind because the drifting, believe it or not, is ****ing awesome nonetheless.

One could easily argue that improving the physics could improve the community, since there'd be more information that could transfer from real life to the game, and vice-versa. For a game that is touted as a sim, I certainly hope the "simulation" bit will stay a priority for them.

Cant compare physics on the game in my opinion due not feeling the g forces.

Ah, but you absolutely can; physics aren't necessarily about the forces we feel (or don't) in the game, it's about replicating the real-world to the best of one's abilities, and about measurable results. Scaff mentioned the Mini Cooper hitting the same lateral g's as a Vette, when they're both on the same tire compound. That just should not be possible, and as such, shows a problem with the physics engine. Things like that, or the earlier mention of GT's very erroneous simulation of torque steer, don't need the g forces to be proven wrong. If you've got the time, Scaff's done a lot of in-depth exploration into the physics engine GT5, and as he's got literally decades of real-world experience, he's far better versed in the science behind it all

That all said, the intuition and skill that comes with real seat time, and feeling those g's, is something no video game can provide an alternative for. I'll never argue that 👍

 

[Stavingo]

Only thing I don't get is that you see little missiles with less then 150-200hp can rip a few drifts around a track, yet in GT5 you need at least 250hp to at least drift one corner.

Change them tire models and the physics.

 

[playnthru]

I drift cars with less than 200 HP? That argument is completely false.