Six Axis - Uneven Throttle Distribution

  • Thread starter Alan_G
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Alan_G

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Bugman_27
Hello. Before everyone starts shouting "Just get a damn wheeeel!" - I would like to get a wheel/pedals setup. But for a couple of reasons, just not possible at the moment. No doubt it may make it easier to be fast, and would definitely be a more realistic experience. And I'm sure at some stage I'll get a wheel setup together. But still, I'm pretty comfortable and competitive with analogue controller, and have been using for about 13 years through all the sims!

The steering in GT5 Prologue is awful for six-axis; slow, delayed, prolonged - impractical for powerful cars which can easily lose the rear. For the GT5 Demo, they really addressed this. I'm actually very surprised how much better it is - I really was not expecting any changes. It's now possible to comfortably catch and control oversteer. So this gives me hope that they can go one step further and sort out the throttle for the full GT5. Unfortunately, this problem has carried over from GT5P into the Demo.

For six-axis users, there is an uneven throttle distribution on whatever axis you use (stick, or button). It is very sensitive in the crucial top 30% of the throttle output. I'd say around 70% of the physical throttle input produces around 50% throttle. Go beyond that and the output suddenly increases. And then there's a bit of a deadzone at the top, for good measure. So in other words, a small, disproportionate amount of physical throttle near the top controls maybe 40% of the top throttle output.

This is a serious problem for exiting corners. You need to be able to hit that 70-90% throttle as you're coming out of corners. But with the six-axis, it's just fraught with danger. It's impossible to do this comfortably or consistently without losing the rear (and killing the lap - especially with the Non-Tuned Nissan, since Six-axis users cannot reduce the traction control from '7').

For any six-axis users who were not aware of this, simply park any car on track. Hold the handbrake. Then slowly and steadily increase the throttle from 0 to max, and watch how the distribution is all over the place.

I'm not sure why they have done this. There's no reason why the throttle distribution should be uneven like this. If anything, the bottom part of the throttle should be sensitive, because above 30-40% is where all the action is. When I see my demo replays, I can see exactly where I'm losing time - exiting corners. I can't put the car where I want, because it's impossible to use the throttle as required. My Tuned time is 1'37.1. I'd could easily get that to the mid 1'36s if there was not this problem.

And again, please don't say "just get a wheel then!". PS3s come with a dualshock. I'm competitive with them. And I can't understand why it has to be disadvantaged like this.
 
Hi Alan

Yes, I can see where you're coming from.

Being a die-hard racing fan (and of course GT fan), I love playing this game with a proper input, aka wheel. There is no denying that optimal input (wheel) provides better GT experience.

However, DualShock3 (and SixAxis) is very, very important for Polyphony and SCE. Because it's THE major input which majority of GT gamers use. They cannot overlook this factor. (After all, what's the percentage of people play GT series with a wheel.. not that many)

Myself being away from home at the moment, I've been playing GT5 Academy with a DualShock 3 and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Fine throttle control is almost impossible with DualShock3 in GT5 Academy.
 
Yeah. Well an example of the difficulty:

Take left-hand hairpin near the end of the lap. When coming out of that corner, there's a sweet spot on the throttle needed to get the most out of the racing line - around 80% throttle (increasing to max). But it's just far too difficult with six-axis. You hit maybe 60% throttle. Squeeze a bit more, 65, up to 70, squeeze bit more, and then suddenly, bang, jumps up to 90%+ throttle, or even max, wheelspin occurs, lap ruined.
 
Consequently the exact opposite effect occurs on the DFGT pedals. 70% of power comes in the first 30% of pedal drop and with bugger all spring tension in the DFGT pedals we all know how frustrating it can be to try and hold a very light constant throttle during turns.

/sorry, slightly off topic there.

Anyway, this has always been the case with every controller Sony has ever made. Right from the PS1, thought they claim 256 levels of gradiation on both the sticks and the buttons, the problem has always been that the levels seem to be non-linear, or at least extremely difficult to achieve.
 
IronM@sk
Anyway, this has always been the case with every controller Sony has ever made. Right from the PS1, thought they claim 256 levels of gradiation on both the sticks and the buttons, the problem has always been that the levels seem to be non-linear, or at least extremely difficult to achieve.
Click to expand...

The original PS controller was digital only. Analog buttons were introduced with the DualShock2.
 
The triggers certainly don't make up for this shortfall... I always though it was a problem with the actual controller (in terms of the x button at least - never tried the right stick but i'm surprised its the same sort of rpoblem with that)

I just think they are making people buy wheels, most notably the DFGT as it bears the GT name.
 
IronM@sk
Anyway, this has always been the case with every controller Sony has ever made. Right from the PS1, thought they claim 256 levels of gradiation on both the sticks and the buttons, the problem has always been that the levels seem to be non-linear, or at least extremely difficult to achieve.
Click to expand...

I agree. It appears to be a problem with the controller, not the game. There's just no reason for them to code the game that way, but I can see how the controller could not be precise. You can even notice it on other games. Not even L2/R2 are precise, and they should be.

To OP: You said this also happens with the right analog stick? Because it shouldn't... And... Get a wheel! :lol:

Seriously, the controller is not precise enough to play this game. PD tries to do whatever they can to make it playable even on the D-Pad as Kazunori already noted, but there's no way to make any miracles. The proper instrument to drive a car is a wheel. You can be competitive with the controller but to complain a wheel is better than a controller to drive a car doesn't make much sense...
 
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Dravonic
I agree. It appears to be a problem with the controller, not the game. There's just no reason for them to code the game that way, but I can see how the controller could not be precise. You can even notice it on other games. Not even L2/R2 are precise, and they should be.

To OP: You said this also happens with the right analog stick? Because it shouldn't... And... Get a wheel! :lol:

Seriously, the controller is not precise enough to play this game. PD tries to do whatever they can to make it playable even on the D-Pad as Kazunori already noted, but there's no way to make any miracles. The proper instrument to drive a car is a wheel.
Click to expand...

It was precise enough for GT4 with all aids off. You could quite easily handle a speed 12 using the buttons on the PS2. I could apply 60-70% throttle by pushing the button in just over halfway on GT4. But if i apply the same amount of pressure on the Sixaxis, i get 100% throttle.

Any users with first gen PS3s with backwards compatability care to shed light on this? i.e. whether its the difference in game design, or the difference in controller design. Using a Sixaxis for GT4 would tell me if its GT5 or the Sixaxis/DS3 that is the problem.
 
Throttle and steering on d-pad. They HAVE TO fix it in full GT5. In some way it's their third game on PS3 and they still didn't fix it <_<
It would be best if they make some kind of regulation of sensitivity... because it's way to sensitive in GT5P and this GT5 TT Demo.

ps. again.. sorry for my English ;)
 
Dravonic
I agree. It appears to be a problem with the controller, not the game. There's just no reason for them to code the game that way, but I can see how the controller could not be precise. You can even notice it on other games. Not even L2/R2 are precise, and they should be.

To OP: You said this also happens with the right analog stick? Because it shouldn't... And... Get a wheel! :lol:

Seriously, the controller is not precise enough to play this game. PD tries to do whatever they can to make it playable even on the D-Pad as Kazunori already noted, but there's no way to make any miracles. The proper instrument to drive a car is a wheel. You can be competitive with the controller but to complain a wheel is better than a controller to drive a car doesn't make much sense...
Click to expand...

If you can quote me where I complained "a wheel is better than a controller", then go for it. I never made any such complaint. I strictly said that Six-axis users have a pointless, unnecessary disadvantage. I acknowledge that without this throttle problem for six-axis, overall using a wheel/pedals setup is faster, and more importantly probably a better experience. And that's fair enough; I'm not complaining at all about that.

This is not a problem with the controller. The brakes distribution is perfect! If you park the car, put on the handbrake, and slowly and steadily increase brakes from 0 to max, it's perfectly even (down right-analogue for me). Not only that, but just to prove the point, I changed the button config to swap the throttle/brakes around. So throttle is right-analogue down and brakes up. It's the same result. The brakes have a perfectly even distribution and the throttle is still completely uneven.

Plug in (or switch on) a Six-Axis pad and try it out; see how the brakes distribution is perfect, indicating that it must be a software issue.

"There's just no reason for them to code the game that way" - Well doing it this way decreases the limit for pad users, thus increasing the emphasis on requiring 300 quid Logitech wheel/pedals to be fast for reasons which they hope nobody will go in to.

And the reason this is a problem is that the vast vast majority of users are pad users. If this problem is not fixed for the full release, I simply won't buy the game. Although most pad users won't hold the same stance (mostly because they don't understand what throttle distribution is or what the problem is), still there will be a percentage who will look elsewhere for a sim.
 
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Alan_G
If you can quote me where I complained "a wheel is better than a controller", then go for it. I never made any such complaint. I strictly said that Six-axis users have a pointless, unnecessary disadvantage. I acknowledge that without this throttle problem for six-axis, overall using a wheel/pedals setup is faster, and more importantly probably a better experience. And that's fair enough; I'm not complaining at all about that.

This is not a problem with the controller. The brakes distribution is perfect! If you park the car, put on the handbrake, and slowly and steadily increase brakes from 0 to max, it's perfectly even (down right-analogue for me). Not only that, but just to prove the point, I changed the button config to swap the throttle/brakes around. So throttle is right-analogue down and brakes up. It's the same result. The brakes have a perfectly even distribution and the throttle is still completely uneven.

So 'Dravonic': Before you throw unqualified facts around, you should plug in (or switch on) a Six-Axis pad and try it out properly, see how the brakes distribution is perfect, and realise that it's obviously a software issue.

"There's just no reason for them to code the game that way" - Well doing it this way decreases the limit for pad users, thus increasing the emphasis on requiring 300 quid Logitech wheel/pedals to be fast for reasons which they hope nobody will go in to.

And the reason this is a problem is that the vast vast majority of users are pad users. If this problem is not fixed for the full release, I simply won't buy the game. Although most pad users won't hold the same stance (mostly because they don't understand what throttle distribution is or what the problem is), still there will be a percentage who will look elsewhere for a sim.
Click to expand...

Well I never tried to pass my thoughts as facts. Do you note the word "appears" in "It appears to be a problem with the controller, not the game." so I can't be blamed for that.

It looked like you were upset because you were slower with a controller and I pointed out it was obvious to be slower with one. It's not the case so I apologize for that.

I was surely too quick to rule out they coding the game that way. I tried it out here and in fact it happens even with the stick so it can't be the controller. I also apologize for that.

However, I wouldn't go as far as to start a conspiracy theory that they are trying to force people into buying wheels. I do wonder why wouldn't they do it linearly, but I believe you are going too far. It could be just their way to help you from spinning out by providing better low throttle control. I do agree that it shouldn't be happening anyway. They finally got rid of the steering angle limitation in the controller. They shouldn't be adding any more questionable assists for it.
 
No, I'm not upset at all! If wheel users are faster than me, that doesn't bother me. If fellow pad users are faster - well that sounds like a challenge to me. What does bother me is the vast majority of GT users being put at a disadvantage, not just with the throttle, but also in GT5P with the steering.

The distribution does not just accelerate towards the top; it slows down between 30-60% output. So in other words, it's very easy to hit around the mid-point of throttle output. I have thought that they may be trying to help users not lose control. If this is the case, well then they need to try again. You're not going to lose it below 50% throttle (if a user does, then they don't know what they're doing!). The danger zone is 70%+ throttle output, especially in GT5P with cars like the Corvette, Spoon, and F599.
 
Hi Alan,

I am also using the "sixasis" (sticks) and I know exactly what you mean as I noticed this behaviour myself already.

The throttle control is simply non linear.

On my RC transmitter (RC airplanes) I can adjust linearity by the so called "exponential" setting. In GT5 (prologue/demo) I cant.

I would prefer a linear distribution also because I think though there is a reason they made it non-linear (easier control at below 70% stick movement) it has the disadvantage above 70%.

If they would swap this behaviour (0-30% Stick controls 0-70% output power / 30-100% Stick movement controls 70% - 100% power) it would be also a problem because this all depends on the torque / power curve of the engine / car beeing used.

So for me the only way to do it right is to make it a linear distribution.

Meanwhile I try to get along with that non-linearity-problem but it is - as you say- very very hard to do.

BTW: What exactly has changed with the steering since GT5 Prologue in aspect to the controller ?

(I can feel it is alot more fun to drive now (since prologue) and it also gives a lot more control when the cars start to oversteer. I like it very much and I find it a big improvemnet since GT5 P ! It also feels more real-life-like)

regards
 
Steering: In GT5P, (and possibly GT4), there is a double problem. Firstly, there is a delayed response - you steer and nothing happens for at least 0.2s (Before the last GT5P patch, it was even worse.). The second problem is the delayed movement to the desired steering angle. This goes way beyond the excuse of "but it's not possible with a wheel...". With a wheel (whether it's with a real car, or simulator), it is possible to jump to a certain steering angle (up to a limit, and of course depending on the current movement of the car). In GT5P this is not possible. Even jumping to, say, 20 degrees off centre, it's a slow, prolonged movement (maybe 0.4s - too long!). Or in other words, with six-axis, if you go from centre to 90 degrees steering immediately, the output happens much more slowly than possible with a wheel (real or simulator).

I was not expecting any six-axis changes for the Demo, because I felt they have made it clear where their priorities lie. But the first thing I noticed was as soon as I got an over-steer moment, I could catch it and control it so easily, as compared to GT5P. It's fair now. It you hit a particular steering angle, it happens around about as quickly as one imagines should be possible with a wheel. And this is a very positive development.

So I just wish they would do the same with the throttle. It's no good messing around with uneven distributions, even if it's to help some users. Although you're right Profi, it does depend on the power curve of a particular car, I still think it would be definitely better to turn it upside down - put the sensitivity in the almost redundant 0-30% area. No matter how powerful a car, or what kind of power curve, I very rarely use throttle that low.
 
Alan_G
Steering: In GT5P, (and possibly GT4), there is a double problem. Firstly, there is a delayed response - you steer and nothing happens for at least 0.2s (Before the last GT5P patch, it was even worse.). The second problem is the delayed movement to the desired steering angle. This goes way beyond the excuse of "but it's not possible with a wheel...". With a wheel (whether it's with a real car, or simulator), it is possible to jump to a certain steering angle (up to a limit, and of course depending on the current movement of the car). In GT5P this is not possible. Even jumping to, say, 20 degrees off centre, it's a slow, prolonged movement (maybe 0.4s - too long!). Or in other words, with six-axis, if you go from centre to 90 degrees steering immediately, the output happens much more slowly than possible with a wheel (real or simulator).

I was not expecting any six-axis changes for the Demo, because I felt they have made it clear where their priorities lie. But the first thing I noticed was as soon as I got an over-steer moment, I could catch it and control it so easily, as compared to GT5P. It's fair now. It you hit a particular steering angle, it happens around about as quickly as one imagines should be possible with a wheel. And this is a very positive development.

So I just wish they would do the same with the throttle. It's no good messing around with uneven distributions, even if it's to help some users. Although you're right Profi, it does depend on the power curve of a particular car, I still think it would be definitely better to turn it upside down - put the sensitivity in the almost redundant 0-30% area. No matter how powerful a car, or what kind of power curve, I very rarely use throttle that low.
Click to expand...

Thank you Alan,

I knew about the delayed steering movement of GT5P already but didnt know they changed it for the TT...

Maybe its just this what makes the oversteering (at least for us pad-users) much better ?

I will have a look from outside my car while steering left-right in a fraction of a second next time I practice TT....

Anotherone besides the non-linearity (or wrong-sided distribution as you prefer) is that it is also a problem that the travel of this little (pad-)stick is very short.. it would be better if the travel was a bit more or maybe that that the sticks were longer...

(Oh I have an idea.... I will see if I can lenghten those sticks on my controller..- no joke --- hahaa 1.34.254 then ?)

regards

Ah.. my current laptime (tuned): 1.37.995
 
Slightly off topic but with all the talk of the majority playing GT without a wheel I was just wondering why this is the case. Thinking of the entire Guitar Hero / Rock Band craze, people will go out and buy an entire band's worth of plastic controllers which are essentially only good for 1 (maybe 2?) games. This makes the idea of purchasing a wheel look not so silly or out of reach for most people at all. Personally, I was not interested in a wheel until very recently because about 3 years ago I bought a Mad Catz wheel and it was just utter trash. I don't live in a major urban center but the shops I have generally seen stock really subpar wheels (when they stock any) that will increase the fun factor for absolutly no one. Maybe people get turned off by the rubbish before realizing there is so much better available (Logitech, Fanatec, whatever).
 
tyl0r_r
Slightly off topic but with all the talk of the majority playing GT without a wheel I was just wondering why this is the case. Thinking of the entire Guitar Hero / Rock Band craze, people will go out and buy an entire band's worth of plastic controllers which are essentially only good for 1 (maybe 2?) games.
Click to expand...

The reason people buy the Guitar/Drum Hero gear is because it's quite a strong technical requirement. I'm not sure if it's possible to use a six-axis with them. But even if it were possible, because of the layout of the square/triangle etc. buttons on the controller, it would be very difficult to play those games.

The reasons why people don't run out and buy wheel/pedals are:

- Expensive (much more expensive that a cheap guitar hero plastic thing)
- Awkward to set up; you need to buy a stand (very unlikely you have a suitable table to mount to)
- PS3s come with six-axis controllers
- The six-axis is very, very suitable for controlling a car.

With reference to steering/throttle, scrap the graphics/imagery and references to real cars having wheels etc. - all you're doing is controlling two points on respective axes - one for throttle/brakes, other for steering (well, pedals would be split into two). Naturally, the sticks have a much smaller amount of movement compared to wheels/pedals. But this kind of accuracy is very much possible. With the GT series, steering with wheels will always be better, because the FFB gives physical clues as to how much to steer. With the sticks, you've nothing; only the sound and visual clues. But it's still sufficient to be fast.

But the throttle control between pedals and six-axis users is much more evenly matched (or should be). There's no FFB with throttle to show when approaching wheelspin. We're both counting on the sound and feel to get it right. This is why the bad throttle distribution is so costly for pad users.
 
I don't know if this is a bit off topic, but is throttle control in real cars linear? I ask that because on my daily real life drive I find it hard to give the exact throttle input I want for my Hyunday Accent, but it completely changes when I drive my brother's Mercedes which is much more precise.
 
I was thinking, could it be possible to change how touchy the throttle is by taking the controller apart and inserting a stiffer spring? I have an extra sixaxis that I could experiment on if that could work.
 
R1600Turbo
I was thinking, could it be possible to change how touchy the throttle is by taking the controller apart and inserting a stiffer spring? I have an extra sixaxis that I could experiment on if that could work.
Click to expand...

I did something similar with a dualshock 2. The right stick was all wobbly while the left one worked fine. So I opened the controller, removed the solder from both the sticks and swapped them so the right stick is now the left. I also opened it to try and fix the wobbliness but really couldn't unfortunately. Either way, opening the controller and the stick and closing them back again is definitely doable. I don't know if a stronger spring will work but it's doable.
 
Alan_G
This is not a problem with the controller. The brakes distribution is perfect! If you park the car, put on the handbrake, and slowly and steadily increase brakes from 0 to max, it's perfectly even (down right-analogue for me). Not only that, but just to prove the point, I changed the button config to swap the throttle/brakes around. So throttle is right-analogue down and brakes up. It's the same result. The brakes have a perfectly even distribution and the throttle is still completely uneven.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can confirm that, too.

I highly doubt it is the problem with the controller (SixAxis and/or DualShock3). As I also find brake distribution is perfect as well. This tells me that the uneven throttle distribution problem is related to software.

FWIW, I have both old SixAxis, and new DualShock3. Both of them exhibit the same problem - even distribution in brake but uneven distribution in throttle.

As I said earlier, because I'm away from home at the moment, this is pretty much my first experience playing GT with controllers. I've always played GT series with logitech wheel. I never knew this kind of glitch/bug existed with controller input. And this must be addressed.
 
^^ That's why I am giving this stiffer spring a shot. I'm hoping the extra stiffness allows me to utilize the top of that trigger a little better. Making it not as "touchy".
 
Spagetti69
Don't takecypur sixaxis apart it will not work ever again.
Click to expand...

I took mine apart to fix a faulty analogue stick. Or at least i attempted to. The circuit board is glued to the front of the controller, and i didn't really want to pull it off... Means my left analgue stick does not move forward fully, which can be problematic in first person shooters, RPGS etc. (Basically any game that requires you to move forward). Happily GT does not require this use 👍

And i will be very interested to hear the results of your experiment :)
 
R1600Turbo: I'm not sure how much difference modifying the controller will make! I did a more in depth analysis of the throttle problem (mostly out of temper from getting wheelspin exiting onto the back straight!).

On the throttle gauge, the amount increases in increments. Here is what I've found:

- The lowest throttle output above zero is around 12%.
- Between 0-25% there are around 15 increments.
- Between 25-50% there are around 20 increments.
- Between 50-75% there are around 9 increments.
- Between 75-100% there are exactly 6 increments!!

The problem is that above 75% throttle output, there are only around 6 increments, meaning it is impossible to use this area perfectly and accurately.

I really want to put the nail in the ground on this one, because there is no reason the throttle should be like this, and this puts pad users at an unfair disadvantage against wheel users (probably largely Logitech wheels, which just happen to have exclusive support with GT5...).

The exit of a corner is the most important part to it, because you don't just lose speed for that part of the corner, but you lose speed the whole way down the following straight/section. For exiting corners, you need to be able to find around 75% and squeeze up from there, typically around 85-95% before hitting full throttle. Pad users cannot do this practically.

The racing line for exiting corners dictates the amount of throttle one can use, relative to the grip limit of the car. And this racing line just happens to correspond to around 75-90% throttle, to get the ideal speed for exiting. The problem for pad users is that we cannot properly use this area of the throttle. Therefore there are two choices:

1) We don't takes optimal speed out of corners (and lose time over the following section).
or
2) We change the racing line appropriately (which is still slower).

I looked at the replays for several pad users, and wheel users. The pad users all have the same problem - exiting corners they struggle to get to grips with the 75-100% area of the throttle; the throttle is just flicking wildly around above 75%. Wheel/pedal users can do it just as desired. Even have a look at Yamauchi's laps: Exiting almost every corner, he hits around 80%, smoothly squeezes up a bit, and then up to 100%, taking great speed out of corners. Pedal users increments are very smooth above 75%, which is very important.

I shaved 1 tenth off my Tuned time today, to 1'37.0, and am very frustrated as I can see where I'm losing so much time. I'll probably finish with this demo now and hope this throttle problem is fixed for the full GT5 (although I may be dragged in again - I'm 3rd overall in my country, and I read there is a round for the top 20 per country or something...not sure).

I don't know if anybody who has anything got to do with PD would ever read this forum, but in the vain hope - Fix the damn pad throttle distribution!
 
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